Tx police stymied ?

[CJB]

Headline tonite -

"Police in TX confused, they cannot tell who is open carrying a handgun legally"

~~
I fail to see the issue whatsoever!

You need a permit to carry concealed or now openly in Texas. A license of sorts.
You need a license to drive a motor vehicle on the highway in Texas. A permit of sorts.

Do the police fret and piss themselves because they don't know who's driving legally? No.

Why should open carry be any different. You F up, you might have the cops come by. And just like drivers.... "Lets see your license for your weapon"

This ought to be a no brainer that the cops are making mountain from molehill.

[b4uqzme]

You need a permit to open carry in Texas? I thought it was free to everyone like it is here in Ohio. Without some sort if un-infringed ability to BEAR arms, permits (open or concealed) are technically unconstitutional. In case that's not clear I will rephrase: In Ohio, for example, everyone has a right to open carry and that meets the second amendment requirement NOT to infringe upon the bearing of arms. With that Constitutional requirement met they can now permit CCW. You Texas guys need to make some noise...

CJB -- your point is spot on. Police cannot simply pull you over to ask if you have a driver's license. They have to wait until you mess up. And they should treat carry permits the same.

[Planedude]

Actually, the antigunners are the parties with the hysteria problem. The local media just feeds on it...

The vast majority of Texans (cops included) are more like "Gun(!!)...Meh". Mostly the local police agencies have put out info and trained cops on how to talk the "terror struck" off the edge. They have trained the local 911 operators a new mantra "...Please calm down madam, open carry is now legal... "
They have a few you tube type productions out about open carry also. No worries here in Texas.

[Longitude Zero]

Now in TX WalMart and others are in a bind. At their stores that sell alcohol they are in violation of the Alcoholic Beverage Control Laws if the allow unlicensed carry concealed/open. Now in TX if you are open carrying a member of management is mandated by state law to ask the open carrier if they have a license and to produce it or the carrier must by state law leave the premises. As to making noise Texans in this case need to shut up as open carry just became legal recently and agitating is NOT a good idea now.

[Longitude Zero]

Police cannot simply pull you over to ask if you have a driver's license. They have to wait until you mess up.

NOT entirely correct. In many jurisdictions Drivers License/Mandatory Insurance Checkpoints are legal and occur.

[muggsy]

Don't the people of Texas have the same presumption of innocence that the people of the other 49 states have?

[b4uqzme]

^^^ I don't think that's what CJB was talking about: checkpoints. He was talking about a policeman seeing someone carrying but stopping them randomly to check for their license. I am glad to hear Planedude's report that this really isn't a problem.

[Longitude Zero]

Don't the people of Texas have the same presumption of innocence that the people of the other 49 states have?

Sure they do, which has nothing to do with this discussion. The OC law that restricts LEO's ability to ask to see your licenses DOES NOT restrict private business/property owners from asking to see your CCW, in fact the law was particularily worded to NOT restrict private property owners from this action. In Texas unlicensed OC and CCW is ILLEGAL. They are NOT Constitutional Carry and quite frankly probably never will be. You must have a permit from TX or some other state that has reciprocity with TX. If anybody wants to educate themselves and thus post from a point of knowledge and not supposition/uneducated opinion the website Open Carry Texas would be a good place to start.

[b4uqzme]

I don't think that's what CJB was talking about either LZ: private citizens asking to see your permit. But since you brought that up...if a private citizen asks to see my permit, am I required to show them? Educate me. thanks.

[RonW]

Since I'm actually from Texas and has a Texas CHL ( concealed handgun license) I have not encountered any "confused" officer's. In fact, all LEO's that I've came across have told me that they have been brought up to date with current Concealed Carry laws including Open carry. If they see you open carrying, they will have just cause to approach you, possibly temporary disarm you and ask to see your license. What's going to happen is they're gonna check it, tell you you're ok and good to go and give your firearm back... They're just doing their jobs making sure no chowderbrains are out there. I remember when conceal carry first passed in Texas in 1995, all the antigunner's were freaking out saying that people are going to be shooting each other left & right... That didn't happen. We're seeing the same baloney now that Open carry passed. give it by this coming spring & everything will boil over & it wont be a big deal as much.... Now since nothing normalizes the existence & presence of armed citizenry more than open carry, and because conceal carry by it's very nature is concealed from the public eye. I feel Open carry can help strenghten our cause. You want the public to get used to guns? Then have guns seen in public carried by knowledgeable & friendly gun owners. By being friendly, we make the gun friendly as well...Conceal carry is good, open carry is good, and both should be supported. remain friendly towards all people & LEO's alike... We are required by law to show LEO's our license's, we are NOT required to show it to private citizens. This deal about Walmart only pertains to customers who are purchasing alcohol while open carrying. The story changed too much but that is exactally what the big fuss is about...

[muggsy]

I'm going to have a copy of my open carry permit tattooed on my left cheek and the words in the 2A tattooed on my right. Then I'll show them that I have a right to bear more than just arms. :)

[jpshaw]

I really don't know what the open carry laws are in Louisiana but in the last two months I have noticed four different people (not LE) open carrying in Walmart. I personally am not going to do it. It's the concealed part that confuses the bad guys and in the case of a mass shooting I don't want to be the first one shot.

[Longitude Zero]

I don't think that's what CJB was talking about either LZ: private citizens asking to see your permit. But since you brought that up...if a private citizen asks to see my permit, am I required to show them? Educate me. thanks.

If you are in a private business, in several states then yes they have the right to ask and to require you to leave if you do not have a licenses or they do not want OC or CC. In every state I have learned about Private Property Rights of the owner trump our OC and CC rights.

[Longitude Zero]

I really don't know what the open carry laws are in Louisiana but in the last two months I have noticed four different people (not LE) open carrying in Walmart. I personally am not going to do it. It's the concealed part that confuses the bad guys and in the case of a mass shooting I don't want to be the first one shot.

Precisely!!!

[Longitude Zero]

Since I'm actually from Texas and has a Texas CHL ( concealed handgun license) I have not encountered any "confused" officer's. In fact, all LEO's that I've came across have told me that they have been brought up to date with current Concealed Carry laws including Open carry. If they see you open carrying, they will have just cause to approach you, possibly temporary disarm you and ask to see your license. What's going to happen is they're gonna check it, tell you you're ok and good to go and give your firearm back... They're just doing their jobs making sure no chowderbrains are out there. I remember when conceal carry first passed in Texas in 1995, all the antigunner's were freaking out saying that people are going to be shooting each other left & right... That didn't happen. We're seeing the same baloney now that Open carry passed. give it by this coming spring & everything will boil over & it wont be a big deal as much.... Now since nothing normalizes the existence & presence of armed citizenry more than open carry, and because conceal carry by it's very nature is concealed from the public eye. I feel Open carry can help strenghten our cause. You want the public to get used to guns? Then have guns seen in public carried by knowledgeable & friendly gun owners. By being friendly, we make the gun friendly as well...Conceal carry is good, open carry is good, and both should be supported. remain friendly towards all people & LEO's alike... We are required by law to show LEO's our license's, we are NOT required to show it to private citizens. This deal about Walmart only pertains to customers who are purchasing alcohol while open carrying. The story changed too much but that is exactally what the big fuss is about...

Agree with all but your WalMart assertion. I will do some more research with friends in the Bentonville home office and see what I can ascertain.

http://fortune.com/2016/01/06/walmart-texas-guns/

[berettabone]

We have open carry up here............................it's not confusing to me...............................any business or private person that asks if I have a license, gets a kiss my ***. Then, they no longer get my business. Simple really.

[RonW]

To the best of my knowledge the Walmart fiasco is only when a customer is open carrying & making a alcohol purchase, at least that was my understanding. Now if that is really is the case with walmart employees asking to see our CHL's my response is who provided their training & under who's authority? Yeah sure it's walmarts property but then why not ask to see everyones ID then? Why target people who are licensed to carry openly? makes no business sense to me. screw walmart I dont even shop there anyway.

[Bawanna]

While I completely agree that a business that confronted me would never see me again I firmly believe that it is the business owners right to expel anyone from their business that they don't want there.

It's like people coming into your house, it's your house, it's your castle, if you don't care for a certain type to come into your home or no one at all that is your prerogative.

Same with a business. If I have a shop and don't want a certain type or certain things inside, they ain't coming in.

Even more so for small business but it applies to all.

When we used to have Blockbusters they for a bit put up the no firearms signs, less than a couple weeks later the signs were gone when most of their clientele quit coming.

I believe open carry should be legal and require no permit of any kind, always been that way here in Washington, but I don't support open carry in actual practice. I find it alarming even to me accustomed to firearms and a devout fan of them.
People say exercising the right to open carry will enlighten the unenlightened but I don't think that will ever happen.
Far too many sheep these days that will scream wolf only complicating the whole practice.

[Longitude Zero]

We have open carry up here............................it's not confusing to me...............................any business or private person that asks if I have a license, gets a kiss my ***. Then, they no longer get my business. Simple really.

That is your right to do so. It is also my right to LOL at folks who say this.

[Longitude Zero]

screw walmart I dont even shop there anyway.

Then why did you bother to rant at a business you never shop at? Makes no sense really to do so.

[Armybrat]

Don't the people of Texas have the same presumption of innocence that the people of the other 49 states have?

Not to the national media we don't. The ignoramus newsreaders don't seem to realize that 29 other states have had Constitutional carry for years, along with 14 others with permit OC. Arkansas just put OC into effect right before Texas, and nobody even noticed.

The ignorant hysteria of the liberal handwringers is downright disgusting. They are just going to have to get over it. However, 99% of Texans will probably NEVER see anyone open carrying, just like the vast majority in all the other states.

We saw the exact same type of fear-mongering by the pantywaist crowd 20+ years ago when Texas finally passed the CHL law. The idiot Chicken Littles ran around shouting "Wild West!", "Blood will run in the streets!", "Gunnuts will shoot old ladies over road rage!".
Holy crap, the same thing this past year. Idiots.

Don't even get me started on the insane hysteria about our new campus Carry law that goes into effect August 1st.

[Armybrat]

While I completely agree that a business that confronted me would never see me again I firmly believe that it is the business owners right to expel anyone from their business that they don't want there.

It's like people coming into your house, it's your house, it's your castle, if you don't care for a certain type to come into your home or no one at all that is your prerogative.

Same with a business. If I have a shop and don't want a certain type or certain things inside, they ain't coming in.

Even more so for small business but it applies to all.

When we used to have Blockbusters they for a bit put up the no firearms signs, less than a couple weeks later the signs were gone when most of their clientele quit coming.

I believe open carry should be legal and require no permit of any kind, always been that way here in Washington, but I don't support open carry in actual practice. I find it alarming even to me accustomed to firearms and a devout fan of them.
People say exercising the right to open carry will enlighten the unenlightened but I don't think that will ever happen.
Far too many sheep these days that will scream wolf only complicating the whole practice.
I agree, but am not going to criticize anyone who open carries in a legal and safe manner.

What all you Yankees have to realize is, Texas was a one party democrat state for 120 years from the end of Reconstruction until George W. Bush ran Ann Richards out of the Governor's Mansion after she vetoed the first CHL law passed by our legislature. Before that, she was a "rising star" amongst the liberal democrats nationwide, but her butt was thoroughly drubbed by W and she lost her luster. Much like Wendy "Abortion Barbie" Davis was wiped out by Greg Abbott in the last gubernatorial election.
Anyway, 19th Century Texans used to shoot each other in large numbers over the hot range wars, fence-cuttin', border war rustling & the like, so the state cracked down pretty hard early on. The state's Blue Laws began loosening up in the 1960s, and by the late '80s a lot of the democrats saw the writing on the wall, so they started calling themselves republicans if they wanted to get re-elected.

Of course we still have a long way to go to be as free as out brothers & sisters in Alaska, Arizona, etc., but we'll get there.

[Longitude Zero]

Of course we still have a long way to go to be as free as out brothers & sisters in Alaska, Arizona, etc., but we'll get there.

Wishful thinking but unlikely as Austin is so liberal. In fact TX is not as conservative as many TX fancifully believe.

[CJB]

Since folks have speculated about what I meant - here it is, more plainly.

The police have no inclination, ability, directive, nor privilege of detaining you, just to see if you have a license to drive.
Also, it has been asserted in the courts, the police do not have the privilege of detaining you because they think you may have a weapon.
There must be some probable cause that a crime has been committed. The police cannot "go fishin" unless said fishin' trip is part of some overall fishin' expedition, such as checks for sobriety, or as we do in the Florida Keys, checks for lobster size limitations. Everyone is stopped, and the courts have upheld that such stops are generally legal.

Therefore, I assert, that the police have no privilege to detain a person, carrying openly, where the open carry is generally permitted with license, solely for the purpose of checking that license. Unless of course they choose to stop an entire massed group for that reason. I further assert that there must be probable cause that a crime has been committed, in order to detain someone in said manner.

The Fox news piece about the police being confused, is a lot of hooey. The police are not confused. Fox news is confused, or at least the writer of the "news" was, or, more likely, it seemed like a good thing to write and really wasn't vetted all that well.

[RonW]

Then why did you bother to rant at a business you never shop at? Makes no sense really to do so.

Because as a US citizen I have the right to voice my opinion... Besides, my opinion whether one choose's to shop at a particular store is pertinent to this conversation.

[Bobshouse]

When I lived in Miami, they used to close Northbound 1 and search all the vehicles coming up from Key West.

[mr surveyor]

just for the record, then I'll crawl back into the shadows, the recommendation to get Texas related firearms carry information from OCT website or any other means, is way, way off base. That's the least credible source for information possible.

jd

[Armybrat]

Wishful thinking but unlikely as Austin is so liberal. In fact TX is not as conservative as many TX fancifully believe.

Excuse me, but a democrat has not won a statewide office in twenty years, the Texas Senate has 20 republicans, 11 democrats - the House 98 republicans, 52 democrats. Not to mention the biggest democrat gubernatorial hope since Ann Richards got her butt drubbed by double digits in 2014.

Not quite a liberal trend.

Austin has always been liberal in a sea of conservatism, whether republican or democrat.

[Longitude Zero]

Excuse me, but a democrat has not won a statewide office in twenty years, the Texas Senate has 20 republicans, 11 democrats - the House 98 republicans, 52 democrats. Not to mention the biggest democrat gubernatorial hope since Ann Richards got her butt drubbed by double digits in 2014.

Not quite a liberal trend.

Austin has always been liberal in a sea of conservatism, whether republican or democrat.

True enough but that can change in a single election. If you check the county map you will find sadly that democratic support is rising. Even a three or more counties on the Rio Grande go "D" then the "R's" could be in serious dutch. Never take for granted that a past election is any indication of future results because they are not. I would guess that ALL current Democrats have won a statewide office in the last few, less than 20 years.

[Longitude Zero]

just for the record, then I'll crawl back into the shadows, the recommendation to get Texas related firearms carry information from OCT website or any other means, is way, way off base. That's the least credible source for information possible.

jd

Then post a better sight or??????

[Armybrat]

True enough but that can change in a single election. If you check the county map you will find sadly that democratic support is rising. Even a three or more counties on the Rio Grande go "D" then the "R's" could be in serious dutch. Never take for granted that a past election is any indication of future results because they are not. I would guess that ALL current Democrats have won a statewide office in the last few, less than 20 years.

Lt. Governor Bob Bullock was the last democrat to win a statewide office in Texas - in 1994. he was the last good Texas politician to hold such an office. He loved Texas and was devoted to the great Lone Star State. He was also the last Democrat I voted for, save a State Supreme Court candidate in 2014.

(article is from 2012 - and nothing has changed since then)

http://www.politifact.com/texas/article/2012/sep/26/texas-democrats-have-lost-statewide-elections-long/

But I'm well aware pendulums swing, and Texas' undoubtedly will. But that won't happen until the teatsuckers are in the liberal majority. I will be dead before that comes about.

[RonW]

just for the record, then I'll crawl back into the shadows, the recommendation to get Texas related firearms carry information from OCT website or any other means, is way, way off base. That's the least credible source for information possible.

jd

for giggle's I checked out OCT's website & although they 'try" to be helpful some of the info on their is incorrect.

[berettabone]

That is your right to do so. It is also my right to LOL at folks who say this.

Why would you laugh.............................I don't open carry, but I wish I could. Maybe some day.............I can legally, but don't. Reading is fundamental............................

[muggsy]

In Ohio we have the right to openly carry a firearm without a permit. I've never understood the concept of needing a permit to exercise a constitutional right. You don't need a permit to exercise any of your other rights listed in the bill of rights. I'm living in a world that I don't understand.

[berettabone]

In Ohio we have the right to openly carry a firearm without a permit. I've never understood the concept of needing a permit to exercise a constitutional right. You don't need a permit to exercise any of your other rights listed in the bill of rights. I'm living in a world that I don't understand.

You and me both................I don't need a permit to open carry, and still can't anyway............................................ .:puke:

[Longitude Zero]

Lt. Governor Bob Bullock was the last democrat to win a statewide office in Texas - in 1994. he was the last good Texas politician to hold such an office. He loved Texas and was devoted to the great Lone Star State. He was also the last Democrat I voted for, save a State Supreme Court candidate in 2014.

(article is from 2012 - and nothing has changed since then)

http://www.politifact.com/texas/article/2012/sep/26/texas-democrats-have-lost-statewide-elections-long/

But I'm well aware pendulums swing, and Texas' undoubtedly will. But that won't happen until the teatsuckers are in the liberal majority. I will be dead before that comes about.

You might just live long enough to see the swing. Swings generally occur at least once a decade.

[Armybrat]

You might just live long enough to see the swing. Swings generally occur at least once a decade.
It took 120 years for the first big swing, and we're only going on twenty years towards the next one. Texans can be kinda slow.

What with the cluster**** that is this present national administration, it isn't doing any favors for the state democrats here.

I laughed when political pundits thought Texas was "in play" for the dems in the past two elections. Some may be sweating bullets, and our state republicans are indeed pretty worthless for the most part, but I'm VERY confident it ain't gonna turn any time soon. That's why we are having the fight over illegal immigration & voter I.D. down here.

[CJB]

When I lived in Miami, they used to close Northbound 1 and search all the vehicles coming up from Key West.

Yup, just south of Homestead!

[Armybrat]

Only one "incident" so far in Central Texas - an OC fellow walked into a local grocery that didn't have their .30-07 sign posted yet (no OC, keep it concealed). He was asked to leave, and complied. Cops said no violations, no big deal. In fact they're telling the handwringers to call 311 if they are upset at the sight of an OC person. Don't bother 911 unless the person is unholstered and/or is presenting a threat.

There has been a backlash of private businesses posting both the .30-06 (no licensed conceal carry) and the .30-07 sign. Reportedly one business owner said his sign vendor supplied him with both, so he just put them up - not understanding the implications. Some are questioning who the sign vendor is, what is their agenda, and who is paying for it. There is some speculation that a well-organized anti-gun group may be behind it.

Lots of local confusion amongst businesses, and it will be interesting if they get it all sorted out by the end of the year.

In the meantime there is a lot of finger-pointing at some (not the majority) of Open Carry Texas members' antics of toting ARs & AKs carelessly into private businesses for the past year as the direct cause for this backlash. I think that is painfully obvious, but many of those guys deny it heatedly.

[Longitude Zero]

Don't bother 911 unless the person is unholstered and/or is presenting a threat.

My state along with others are in the process of authoring "Anti-Swatting" legislation and false 911 calls of OC/CC. Many agencies have already on their own refused to respond to anonymous cell phone calls of this and it seems to have sharply reduced the false calls. False 911 calls should already be severely punished, say 90+ days in jail, and the anti swatters aka OC/CC callers should receive an even longer stretch in the klink.

[Armybrat]

My state along with others are in the process of authoring "Anti-Swatting" legislation and false 911 calls of OC/CC. Many agencies have already on their own refused to respond to anonymous cell phone calls of this and it seems to have sharply reduced the false calls. False 911 calls should already be severely punished, say 90+ days in jail, and the anti swatters aka OC/CC callers should receive an even longer stretch in the klink.
Glad to see those steps being taken. Hopefully the 2017 session of the Texas legislature will address the problem, as I've already read more than one letter to the editor from the antigunnuts threatening such calls. Bunch of Mrs. Kravets on steroids, IMO. Handwringers are in full panic mode, especially at the University of Texas.

[downtownv]

Especially in Texas and Commifornia where too many illegals are on the road w/ NO insurance or driver licenses...my daughter it Some taco and the cop told him to get going since he had no papers. What wasn't HE arrested?
Queen Obama said to....