Should a BG be shot

[Allen]

Watching the evening news where often security cameras show a BG inside a quick trip or fast food store waving a gun around attempting to rob the place I wonder what I'd do were I inside as a customer, since we eat out at fast foods often, when all this was happening.
Any suggestions on whether it would be advisable to sit tight and hope he'd get some money and leave, wait till he'd start shooting, wait till he possibly made indications he was headed your way, or just shoot him immediately and hope his gun didn't go off hitting an innocent bystander (or me)?
The more I carry my CM9 on my right hip the more exposed I feel without it, and the more I try to out-think myself before a situation would arise.
Too bad someone hasn't published a booklet on all the different scenerios that might happen and how to respond to them.

[Bawanna]

It would take far more than a booklet to cover all the scenarios.
Your asking a huge huge question that only you can answer and you won't know the question until your there.
So many things to take into consideration.

If it's just money and merchandise and you think he'll leave, let him go. If he's waving and unstable or things get tense I know what I'd do but nobody can or should tell you. Your choice and your aftermath to deal with.

Personally I think your doing the right thing, pondering scenarios but don't plan on the bad guy following your script.

I pray you'll never get a real life scenario but if you do may your shot be true and your lawyer the best.

[yqtszhj]

I pray you'll never get a real life scenario but if you do may your shot be true and your lawyer the best.

That's the three answers there, prayer preceeding the event, your shot be true, and lawyer be the best. That about sums it up.

[b4uqzme]

I recall from a training class the instructor giving a scenario to think about: where a young female restaurant cashier is approached by a gun-wielding robber. The class was divided as to what to do. There was much to consider: the safety of others, your own family, yourself... Our battle-hardened instructor was resolute. He would go in 100 percent and with no hesitation. But that wasn't his point. Similar to what the Colonel said, he explained that only the situation and your own resolve will dictate how and if you will respond. But be prepared to do so if absolutely necessary. And go in without hesitation if you must.

[muggsy]

If you haven't already decided what you would do you shouldn't be carrying a gun. If you wait until the shooting starts you won't have time to think. You have to be committed.

[CJB]

BG has gun in his hand? All bets off. Do what you can.

You see a big rock at the prcipice of a steep hill. Will it roll down and kill the two year old playing at the bottom? You dont think "aw, maybe it will stay put". You take appropriate action.

[hardluk1]

I would like to say I could tell you how I would react but there's to many variables to second guess . The BG my grab the cash and get gone . Maybe the BG has a back up that came in a few minutes early like a normal customer and is mixed into the crowd just to watch for a do gooder to step up . I will defend me and mine first and if no BG's screw with me and no one is shot or beat down I may do nothing but then I'm not very good at second guessing what if scenario's .

[marshal kane]

"Do ya feel lucky, PUNK?" "Go ahead, make my day!" You'll know instinctively what to do and don't rule out the best course of action may be to take the family and RUN to get help.

[Armybrat]

I agree with Bawanna.

Most every incident will be different, so be ready to act quickly & decisively...... or not.

[skiflydive]

There was an armed guy at the Gabby Giffords shooting who chose not to shoot.

[muggsy]

I would like to say I could tell you how I would react but there's to many variables to second guess . The BG my grab the cash and get gone . Maybe the BG has a back up that came in a few minutes early like a normal customer and is mixed into the crowd just to watch for a do gooder to step up . I will defend me and mine first and if no BG's screw with me and no one is shot or beat down I may do nothing but then I'm not very good at second guessing what if scenario's .

You could "what if" this scenario to death. You act upon what you know and not what you don't know. Someone pulls a gun expect him to use it.

[Bawanna]

There was an armed guy at the Gabby Giffords shooting who chose not to shoot.

Very wise move on his part. In all that confusion, nobody knowing who's who, he most likely would have been killed himself by another armed good guy either civilian or police.

Have to remember too that police arriving don't know who's who or what's what. That's one of the scariest parts of the scenario too. Not the cops fault either, just the way it is.

[diablo53]

I often find myself looking around when in a public setting contemplating how to react if a BG came in with a gun. I'm not a person that has a problem with problem solving. I'm pretty good at making decisions on the spot. 1st thing on my list is secure my wife and children as best I can- get them down, get them headed for cover, whatever. Then assess whether or not to immediately address the threat or wait for moment of opportunity (ppl being shot at vs. gun pointed at me). I know if I'm dead, I can't protect my family, so I'm not very gung ho about trying to be the hero. There's never a hard and fast answer to the "what if" question, but having considered the possibilities and a best course of action for those possibilities is mental training for me.

Self defense is about staying alive, not about stopping/killing the bad guy. Do what you have to do, and do it with conviction!

[Armybrat]

There was an armed guy at the Gabby Giffords shooting who chose not to shoot.

Because he walked up just after the nutcase had been tackled by some others on site. Too bad he didn't come out of that store 1 minute earlier.

[getsome]

If the BG is coming after you or your family then by all means do what needs to be done BUT we are not the Police and if possible it's best to let them handle it because they are the pros....If you take a shot at a BG holding up a 7-11 and miss and kill an innocent person it's your butt on the line and you have to remember that even if you have a dead bang shot there may be another BG behind you that you never saw....Remember this story about an armed CCW holder getting involved in a Walmart holdup:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/06/foghorn/breaking-concealed-carry-holder-stopped-las-vegas-shooters-from-continuing-killing-spree/

Yes he tried to stop an active shooter but he didn't get to go home.....Was he a hero, yes but was it worth getting involved?......You decide

[diablo53]

If the BG is coming after you or your family then by all means do what needs to be done BUT we are not the Police and if possible it's best to let them handle it because they are the pros....If you take a shot at a BG holding up a 7-11 and miss and kill an innocent person it's your butt on the line and you have to remember that even if you have a dead bang shot there may be another BG behind you that you never saw....Remember this story:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/06/foghorn/breaking-concealed-carry-holder-stopped-las-vegas-shooters-from-continuing-killing-spree/

Yes he was a hero and took out a killer but he didn't get to go home.....Was it worth getting involved?......You decide

That article states nothing about taking out a killer.. He only confronted a killer and was shot from behind at close range by the wife. Sometimes there's a fine line between brave and stupid, but I wouldn't call him a hero. However indirect the killer's subsequent suicide was, the good guy was still called a "hero."

The article does make your point about choosing the right time to engage or fade into the background. Every situation is different.

[Longitude Zero]

If the BG is coming after you or your family then by all means do what needs to be done BUT we are not the Police and if possible it's best to let them handle it because they are the pros....If you take a shot at a BG holding up a 7-11 and miss and kill an innocent person it's your butt on the line and you have to remember that even if you have a dead bang shot there may be another BG behind you that you never saw....Remember this story:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/06/foghorn/breaking-concealed-carry-holder-stopped-las-vegas-shooters-from-continuing-killing-spree/

Yes he was a hero and took out a killer but he didn't get to go home.....Was it worth getting involved?......You decide

Precisely. With the proliferation of CCW and OC "Robbery Teams" are springing up. You have the primary actor that everybody sees but there can and often times are backup shooters that do nothing but observe. If a citizen attempts to intervene they get popped and the robbery team flees. If you choose to intervene and an innocent is harmed or killed from any cause then you have the burden of proof to show that what you did was reasonable under the given circumstances. I have a specific set of rules that help me to determine if, when, and how I will intervene. In the vast majority of cases unless you have the gun pointed at you or yours, discretion being the better part of valor being a great witness might be the best course of action.

[muggsy]

And then there's the case where everyone is herded into a back room and murdered, because the perp didn't want any witnesses. Every damn one of us is going to die someday. How and when isn't all that important. It's how you live that's important. I'd rather die trying to save a life than to live knowing that I did nothing to prevent a life from being taken. I'd rather die on my feet than on my knees. If your not willing to use it why carry it?

[Allen]

Precisely. With the proliferation of CCW and OC "Robbery Teams" are springing up. You have the primary actor that everybody sees but there can and often times are backup shooters that do nothing but observe. If a citizen attempts to intervene they get popped and the robbery team flees. If you choose to intervene and an innocent is harmed or killed from any cause then you have the burden of proof to show that what you did was reasonable under the given circumstances. I have a specific set of rules that help me to determine if, when, and how I will intervene. In the vast majority of cases unless you have the gun pointed at you or yours, discretion being the better part of valor being a great witness might be the best course of action.

Your last sentence is what has me mostly concerned. How many of us could possibly be able to do anything after the gun is already pointed at you? I know I'm not that fast on the draw. Appreciate all the responses.

[Arkansas Bob]

Just do what feels right. Everybody is different. Key is to think it over before you ever have to decide. This thread is a great thought provoker if you had not given much though to it. Still boils down to your gut feeling at the time. Then is not the time to mull it over. Bob

[getsome]

I still say your best weapon is situational awareness....I can't believe how many people I see walking in a Walmart or grocery store parking lot at night looking at their cell phones while wearing ear buds and not paying any attention to their surroundings....Last month I saw a guy playing with his phone step off a curb directly into the path of a car and get nailed, guy never even looked where he was going....When I'm pumping gas or walking to or from my car in a parking lot I'm looking at everything and my right hand is in my pocket on my pistol so I will have the advantage if a BG comes my way....I NEVER walk into a convenience store without looking through the window at the register to see what might be going on because once you walk into the middle of a holdup it's too late to do anything.....

[Longitude Zero]

Your last sentence is what has me mostly concerned. How many of us could possibly be able to do anything after the gun is already pointed at you? I know I'm not that fast on the draw. Appreciate all the responses.

Research the "OODA Loop". Action always beats reaction. If you have a weapon pointed at you the perps perception/reaction time is generally 1.5 seconds. Most perps are NOT expecting a counter-attack and thus many times their perception/reaction time is greater than 1.5 seconds. The key to be able to move and shoot simultaneously. Sadly a skill 99% of CCW and OC folks DO NOT practice. Primarily because ranges liability procedures will not allow you to. Another area lacking is weapons retention and deflection training. Fortunately I am in a professional position to regularly practice all these skills and more. These are 100% skills that must be performed instantly and without conscious thought. They must be instinctive and that takes thousands and thousands of repetitions to get correct. If the perps weapon is within grabbing distance you can possibly at least deflect the weapon with your non gun hand while drawing and shooting with your gun hand.

It is vital that you become so ingrained with the physical manipulation of your firearm that it takes no thought and is instinctual. That way you leave your cognitive ability free to decide upon your actions and not the physicality of weapons handling/retention/deflection. The Lindell Method of Weapon retention works both ways. It teaches how not to loose control of your weapon/get it back if you do and to take/deflect the perps weapon. All that being said a citizen has NO definitive duty to protect anyone other than themselves and their immediate family, friends, coworkers etc. You have no duty to protect a stranger although the majority of CCW and OC folks will defend a perfect stranger as we should if it is feasible. Never forget that even if you do everything correct and shoot the perp he/she may get of that perfect shot and you will die anyway.

[Longitude Zero]

I still say your best weapon is situational awareness....I can't believe how many people I see walking in a Walmart or grocery store parking lot at night looking at their cell phones while wearing ear buds and not paying any attention to their surroundings....Last month I saw a guy playing with his phone step off a curb directly into the path of a car and get nailed, guy never even looked where he was going....When I'm pumping gas or walking to or from my car in a parking lot I'm looking at everything and my right hand is in my pocket on my pistol so I will have the advantage if a BG comes my way....I NEVER walk into a convenience store without looking through the window at the register to see what might be going on because once you walk into the middle of a holdup it's too late to do anything.....

Exactly. The best gunfight is the one you avoid by paying attention.

[Longitude Zero]

http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13331&stc=1http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13332&stc=1

[kwh]

Thanks to everyone so far for reminders and ways to think and behave before IT happens. I am studying ^OODA^ now. Like so many I have an indoor range but not able to practice "walk and shoot".
Keep the thread going.

[Longitude Zero]

Occams Razor...The simplest solution is generally the best.

Hicks Law...Describes the time it takes for a person to make a decision as a result of the possible choices he or she has: increasing the number of choices will increase the decision time logarithmically.

[getsome]

Thanks to everyone so far for reminders and ways to think and behave before IT happens. I am studying ^OODA^ now. Like so many I have an indoor range but not able to practice "walk and shoot".
Keep the thread going.

If possible find a range that has IDPA staged shooting events where you get to move and fire at targets, MUCH harder than it sounds.....Lots of fun and probably the best real world practice a civilian shooter can get....It's one thing to shoot at a paper target over and over and quite another to have to think, move, fire, and reload as fast as you can.....Super fun and really good practice!

[ltxi]

I'd do what I've long been conditioned to do. With a clear shot, stk....mebbe with a warning first if it be safe.

[CJB]

I still say your best weapon is situational awareness....

Yup! And not losing your head. You got trouble? Ok.... take a moment, if you can, and get prepared. Each and every situation is different. And the BG ain't following the plan (been said before).

If there is gunplay already.... well, that sort of rules out everything. Whether you decide to confront, or cower... well that depends on the BG, the situation, you... everything.

ONE time - I was in a place that got robbed. No gunplay. Employees got the BG and held him till cops arrived. Was I "ready"? Yes I was. Made absolutely no big deal about it, nobody knew, but... if there was going to be a further problem, I was already ready.

Thinking... there was a guy that returned to a local bar, after some altercation, and he was armed with a (really doofusly bad imitation of) Samurai sword. Would I have gotten just as ready? Yup. Was it needed? Nope. Some bikers grabbed his sword, busted it in two, and whacked his ass with it and sent him packing. Ya never know.

Its better, in my mind, to be the person at ready, thinking, observing... than the person rushing in. But.... sometimes I guess ya gotta. Its all situational.

[Longitude Zero]

Its all situational.

Absolutely. Every situation is unique.

[berettabone]

Whatever you should choose to do, under any given circumstance, may I suggest........................................... ...........................There was a guy down here, a few years back, who was standing in line at a grocery store. 2 guys, one with a sawed off, started demanding money. A guy in line had his Steyr 9mm on his side. He waited until the guy started getting agitated, and waving this sawed off around. That's when he decided to use his firearm. He was worried that this guy was just going to start unloading this sawed off. Problem was, besides the crook yelling, it was pretty quiet. He didn't have one in the bank, and had to rack the slide while he was standing in line, without anyone hearing it, especially sawed off fool. Message..............it's tough enough to protect yourself when the SHTF..........don't make it any more difficult, and keep one in the bank. Can you imagine what he felt like, trying to rack that slide as quietly as he could? I would try and avoid it........................................

[CJB]

oh hell yah +1 +1 +1

[muggsy]

I'd do what I've long been conditioned to do. With a clear shot, stk....mebbe with a warning first if it be safe.

All of my warning shots are aimed at center mass.

[kwh]

I'd do what I've long been conditioned to do. With a clear shot, stk....mebbe with a warning first if it be safe.

Can't remember where I read it, but there was list of reasons why a warning shot is never a good idea. Some of them to the best of my memory:
You might be identified as the BG.
You were the one that started or escalated the incident.
Your bullet always hits Something.
You lose the element of surprise.

Further discussion is encouraged, pro or con.

[Bawanna]

No warning shots or verbal warnings from me.

I've been told numerous times by officers and also by Tico, when it's time to shoot, shoot,......don't talk.

[ltxi]

All of my warning shots are aimed at center mass.

I don't do warning shots! I said warning...that would be verbal.

[ltxi]

All of my warning shots are aimed at center mass.

I don't do warning shots! I said warning...that would be verbal, and that only if prudent.

[Allen]

I think about a situation like this every time I sit down in a restaurant (and try to always face the door) or walk into a quick trip. Really getting parinoid in my old age, but it doesn't help any seeing this scenerio on the Oklahoma City TV news practically every evening.

[Bawanna]

I've read too many Louis Lamour books to stare into a campfire or sit with my back to the door.

[Planedude]

I will agree with those here that point out every situation will always go different. Only you can decide in that moment what the right action is and the truth is this: Others will decide later if you were right... by their own standards.

The local ABC affiliate WFAA channel 8 out of Dallas did a very good series on the subject last week. Brett Shipp is their big investigative reporter and his series was very honest, well thought out and guided with LE professionals that seemed to want to know the same answers.
Can a real average concealed carrying good guy do the right thing when the SHTF? I will try and link the stories here, but I wish this was up on youtube or something...

Each part is about five min long.

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/2016/01/11/ready-aim-truth-how-prepared-good-guys-protect-themselves-and-others-part-1/78655818/

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/investigates/2016/01/12/ready-aim-truth-good-guys-vs-bad-guys-part-2/78718008/

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/investigates/2016/01/13/ready-aim-truth-body-armor-not-legal-felons-but-no-ones-checking/78766250/

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/features/2016/01/14/ready-aim-truth-how-atf-regulates-firearms/78813126/

If you have just a few minuets (and if I linked them right) do check these out, I found the stories to be thought provoking, instead of just pissing me off. Several of these "Myth of the good guy with a gun" stories have shown up lately. All the rest wrote the script to come to the (lefty) "right conclusion" that the NRA is all wrong. Grrrrrr...
I can handle the unvarnished truth, but don't BS it and try to sell it to me as "News".

Peace

[muggsy]

Nice links. The first thing that I read each month in the American Rifleman is The Armed Citizen. The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun IS a good guy with a gun.

[Planedude]

I think about a situation like this every time I sit down in a restaurant (and try to always face the door) or walk into a quick trip. Really getting parinoid in my old age, but it doesn't help any seeing this scenerio on the Oklahoma City TV news practically every evening.


I've read too many Louis Lamour books to stare into a campfire or sit with my back to the door.

I seldom get the chance to sit facing the door. My (unarmed) wife is a fanatic about sitting facing the door and tends to make a squawk about it. I still feel I'm okay though as I read faces and stay aware of what's up in the room, even as my lovely wife is oblivious to the door while yakking or tapping on the iPhone...
In most eateries there will be a focal point at the register. That's where the crooks figure the cash is, so when I am not seeing the door, I always arrange myself to see the registers where most crooks are going to go.

And yes, I do get that is little help if the BG ain't there for a robbery... but what do you do?

[kwh]

^ Yes Planedude I have the same exact dilemma.

[b4uqzme]

^^^ you just do the best you can at all times. Not everything will be perfect so you just stay aware despite your physical surroundings. It would be my luck I would position myself looking at the restaurant door and the BG would come through the kitchen.

[Bawanna]

That's a Bingo right there. The best laid plans and the bad guy isn't gonna follow the script.

Be kind, be polite, and have a plan to kill everyone you meet. Somebody wrote that, I thought it was a bit extreme but it's making more and more sense all the time.

[Longitude Zero]

Be kind, be polite, and have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

That is the USMC method.