Limp Wrist

[bayoutrigger]

I'm convinced a large percentage of FTF's are caused by limp wrist. I notice FTF complaints on most boards concerning the lighter sub compact model firearms. This includes Kahr but by no means is limited to Kahr firearms. Unfortunately, the firearm, be it Kahr or otherwise, gets blamed when it's probably limp wristing.

This begs the question, what can be done to help these limp wristing folks. A special way to grip the firearm? A shooting technique that works? A heavier spring?

[Cappy]

I'm convinced a large percentage of FTF's are caused by limp wrist. I notice FTF complaints on most boards concerning the lighter sub compact model firearms. This includes Kahr but by no means is limited to Kahr firearms. Unfortunately, the firearm, be it Kahr or otherwise, gets blamed when it's probably limp wristing.

This begs the question, what can be done to help these limp wristing folks. A special way to grip the firearm? A shooting technique that works? A heavier spring?

Work those wrists more! Weight lifting and doing strength grips will do wonders. :cool:

[Dozer]

In many cases, limp wristing is simply being unaware that you are not holding the gun firmly enough. In this circumstance, more training is in order. Training with the intent of keeping your wrist stiff should improve muscle memory and technique to the point (with enough training) where keeping the proper grip is second nature. You can then focus more on other aspects of shooting, such as accuracy and speed.

[ltxi]

In many cases, limp wristing is simply being unaware that you are not holding the gun firmly enough. In this circumstance, more training is in order. Training with the intent of keeping your wrist stiff should improve muscle memory and technique to the point (with enough training) where keeping the proper grip is second nature. You can then focus more on other aspects of shooting, such as accuracy and speed.

X2.....it's a training issue...pure and simple.

[cineski]

I also see and read of lots of instances where limp wristing is blamed for a bad gun. It's not always user error.

[ltxi]

And some guns are more susceptible than others. Kahrs don't seem to have much of an issue.

[Cappy]

And some guns are more susceptible than others. Kahrs don't seem to have much of an issue.

My P45 is very sensitive to limp wrist. You are right it takes practice, and lots of it. However, I find building the wrists through weight lifting really helps. More strength in the wrists results in less concentration necessary to hold it steady. :o

[cineski]

Just my opinion, any gun where you must concentrate on keeping it steady in order to not induce an FTF is not worth owning. All manufacturers spit out a few lemons, and if they do, they should make it right or refund your money. Simple. A reliable gun works no matter what if you're using factory ammo.

[ltxi]

It's not a matter of keeping it steady, it's the matter of providing a stable platform for the mass of the slide to work against to cycle the action. All 1911's are arguably the most sensitive semi-autos wrt limp wrist induced malfunctions....no matter who makes them. Fortunately for me those are the auto sidearms I grew up with so a locked wrist is second nature.

[bumpfire]

I think a simple instruction would solve the problem.

" Hold the gun with the strength of lifting a 5 gal. bucket of water. As strong as a firm mans handshake. Not the polite ladies kind"

Problem solved :)

[ltxi]

I think a simple instruction would solve the problem.

" Hold the gun with the strength of lifting a 5 gal. bucket of water. As strong as a firm mans handshake. Not the polite ladies kind"

Problem solved :)

A good way to put it.....but gotta add that I don't view it as a strength issue. Just lock the wrist and let the recoil carry through to the arm.

[Rob Longenecker]

It's not a matter of keeping it steady, it's the matter of providing a stable platform for the mass of the slide to work against to cycle the action. All 1911's are arguably the most sensitive semi-autos wrt limp wrist induced malfunctions....no matter who makes them. Fortunately for me those are the auto sidearms I grew up with so a locked wrist is second nature.

If the slide cannot work against the resistance of a relatively stable frame, the slide short cycles, causing failures to feed and/or failures to extract properly.

[zena]

I learned early on about limp wristing with the Glock 18 (full auto). The cyclic rate is so fast that without the stable platform of a locked wrist I didn't get to enjoy my full auto burst. Never been a problem with my Kahr.

[Cappy]

Just my opinion, any gun where you must concentrate on keeping it steady in order to not induce an FTF is not worth owning. All manufacturers spit out a few lemons, and if they do, they should make it right or refund your money. Simple. A reliable gun works no matter what if you're using factory ammo.

Since I have found if I let my wrist go limp with my Glock as well as my S&W I can get a stove pipe. I know this was about FTF, but I guess if a gun stove pipes due to a limp wrist, it is a lemon -- then I must have lemons from every pistol manufacture - Dang! :eek: I will just work on keeping my wrist steady since there are so many lemons out there - JMHO :roll:Just joking around here!! Since I have really been lucky with all my guns, except my Kel-Tec, with FTFs, I can't say whether a limp wrist really causes such an issue. I know if I get tired and allow my wrist to go limp, I will get stove pipes.

[Bigcube]

I need to ask a dumb question... What is a "stove pipe"? I've seen that term many times but not sure what it means. Thanks!

[ltxi]

I need to ask a dumb question... What is a "stove pipe"? I've seen that term many times but not sure what it means. Thanks!

Spent brass doesn't fully/properly eject and gets caught mouth upward between the breech face and the barrel hood as the slide closes.

[Rob Longenecker]

I need to ask a dumb question... What is a "stove pipe"? I've seen that term many times but not sure what it means. Thanks!

Here you go:

http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/4482881/ehow-main_Full.jpg

[ltxi]

I thought Glocks were immune to that problem....:)

[Rob Longenecker]

I thought Glocks were immune to that problem....:)

Probably a staged photo. :rolleyes:

[ltxi]

Probably a staged photo. :rolleyes:

Great comeback....:)

[Bigcube]

Thank you! My Phoenix HP22 did that all the time with std velocity ammo. I didn't know they had a name for it :p

[ltxi]

Thank you! My Phoenix HP22 did that all the time with std velocity ammo. I didn't know they had a name for it :p

I had one of those. Great plinker. Worked well with Stingers. Really wish I hadn't sold it.

[Bigcube]

I had one of those. Great plinker. Worked well with Stingers. Really wish I hadn't sold it.
Same here, I traded it for a Walther P22 only to find out that needed good ammo too. :mad:

[WMD]

Limp wristing is an interesting topic. I am glad someone brought it up! I am 6'1" and weigh 250lbs. I keep myself in "somewhat" decent shape through various types of workouts. I have alos been shooting for decades!

I shot a Kahr PM40 a little while ago. Nice little gun..... when I figured out how to shoot it without limp wristing! I held it with a casual grip like I hold my 1911. WRONG! It jammed. Once I held in to the recoil, the problem cleared right up and it worked fine! If I owned the gun as a carry conceal, I would shoot it enough to develop the proper way to hold the gun when firing. I believe you should know your conceal carry weapon as well as your underwear! (assuming you wear any!) ;-)

I know my CC guns really well and shoot them often enough that a quick and "reasonably" (defined as center mass) well placed shot is second nature (just like putting on your underwear!). I think any small light weight high caliber gun probably fits in this category.

In essence....training is the answer. Education and practice is everything.

Just my 2 cents....

[WMD]

Limp wristing is an interesting topic. I am glad someone brought it up! I am 6'1" and weigh 250lbs. I keep myself in "somewhat" decent shape through various types of workouts. I have alos been shooting for decades!

I shot a Kahr PM40 a little while ago. Nice little gun..... when I figured out how to shoot it without limp wristing! I held it with a casual grip like I hold my 1911. WRONG! It jammed. Once I held in to the recoil, the problem cleared right up and it worked fine! If I owned the gun as a carry conceal, I would shoot it enough to develop the proper way to hold the gun when firing. I believe you should know your conceal carry weapon as well as your underwear! (assuming you wear any!) ;-)

I know my CC guns really well and shoot them often enough that a quick and "reasonably" (defined as center mass) well placed shot is second nature (just like putting on your underwear!). I think any small light weight high caliber gun probably fits in this category.

In essence....training is the answer. Education and practice is everything.

Just my 2 cents....


BTW, I just reread my post after posting to this forum. Apparently I cannot spell for *****! :D

Sorry about that. I guess I need to "practice" more.

[bayoutrigger]

It would be helpful if you describe what is meant by "Once I held in to the recoil..." and how this is done?

Thanks!

[Rob Longenecker]

It would be helpful if you describe what is meant by "Once I held in to the recoil..." and how this is done?

Thanks!

If you resist the rearward recoil with a firm wrist, the slide can move backward and cycle fully against a relatively stable pistol frame. If you allow the frame to move backwards more than a little, the slide will short cycle and cause the malfunctions so often mentioned.

This does not mean to hold the gun so that it has no muzzle flip.

Here's an article on recoil you may enjoy. Tucker Gunleather Blog Blog Archive Let Recoil Happen (http://www.tuckergunleatherblog.com/2009/09/22/let-recoil-happen/)

[WMD]

If you resist the rearward recoil with a firm wrist, the slide can move backward and cycle fully against a relatively stable pistol frame. If you allow the frame to move backwards more than a little, the slide will short cycle and cause the malfunctions so often mentioned.

This does not mean to hold the gun so that it has no muzzle flip.

Here's an article on recoil you may enjoy. Tucker Gunleather Blog Blog Archive Let Recoil Happen (http://www.tuckergunleatherblog.com/2009/09/22/let-recoil-happen/)


That is exactly what I meant. Thanks Rob for the very clear explanation.

I think the Kahr PM series pistols in 40 and 45 cal may be more prone to the Limp Wrist condition then other guns. This is due to the large calibers being in a small lightweight package. I guess this may be a trade off when you want something "large" in a small light weight package. This is certainly something that can be overcome however (with a little practice). My guess is that in a high stress situation, limp wristing would not be a factor.