anyone experience this with therir mags?

[kahrdriver]

If I load a full mag and release the slide to chamber a round, and then remove the magazine, the next round in the mag is no longer fully seated. It has partially moved forward towards the chamber. I have not been able to get to the range to check function. I was just wondering if anyone else has noticed this.

[Jeremiah/Az]

Yes, my PM9 does that, but it never malfunctions or fails to pick up the next shell.

[rickmn50]

Yep! All kinds of well documented issues with single stack magazines like the ones used in Kahr autos. Full mags only make the issue worse. This is why I go 1 & 6 rather than 1 & 7.

[wyntrout]

Yes, that's pretty normal and the 9mm magazines don't hold the cartridges in place very well. Without a secure holder, the cartridges can "wiggle" out one by one. Someone said their loose magazine emptied like that. This can happen in a loose holder, too. Carrying a magazine loose in the pocket is not a good idea.
Wynn

[Internet Blohard]

Mag holders are the ticket. Whether attached to the belt or carried in the pocket, they are a necessary and a "must have" accessory. Loose mags carried in the pocket is no-go.

[tyrobins]

My PM9 does that as well. Doesn't bother me, just push that round back down and in and put that +1 in the mag. I chalk that up to the guns size, everything needs to be tight in this gun because of the size to caliber ratio.

I agree, don't put mags in pocket. Those rounds will work themselves out every time.

[alank2]

Hi,

See my recent thread on my slide lock locking before the magazine was empty. The rounds going slightly forward when the round above it was the problem. A pushed back round worked great, but a round that was 1/16" or 1/8" forward was hitting the slide stop lever from the inside and pushing it up, locking the slide back before the mag was empty. I ended up grinding down a little bit of the slide stop lever which fixed things. You can easily test this by unloading, verifying unloaded, disassemble to frame only, put a round in a mag and push it forward, push it up through the magwell and see if it contacts the slide stop lever. I would NOT push an empty magazine up though the magwell without the slide in place because it may push the lever higher than it would normally allow with the slide and this may put more tension on the slide lock lever spring that it is designed for.

As long as the cartridge being forward doesn't contact the lever, I would say it is no big deal.

Good luck,

Alan

[jocko]

QUOTE:
I would NOT push an empty magazine up though the magwell without the slide in place because it may push the lever higher than it would normally allow with the slide and this may put more tension on the slide lock lever spring that it is designed for


totally disagree, will not hurt one thing.

[alank2]

Hi Jocko,

Notice the use of the word may twice in my statement. :)

I have had this happen on a Glock where pushing up on the slide stop lever too much because the slide was off bent the spring farther than it was designed and caused problems. I don't know if the same would/could happen on the Kahr, but needless to say I am careful since I've seen it happen. I'm not saying the magazine would do it though, just that too far = problem.

Thanks,

Alan

[texjames]

Hi,

See my recent thread on my slide lock locking before the magazine was empty. The rounds going slightly forward when the round above it was the problem. A pushed back round worked great, but a round that was 1/16" or 1/8" forward was hitting the slide stop lever from the inside and pushing it up, locking the slide back before the mag was empty. I ended up grinding down a little bit of the slide stop lever which fixed things. You can easily test this by unloading, verifying unloaded, disassemble to frame only, put a round in a mag and push it forward, push it up through the magwell and see if it contacts the slide stop lever. I would NOT push an empty magazine up though the magwell without the slide in place because it may push the lever higher than it would normally allow with the slide and this may put more tension on the slide lock lever spring that it is designed for.

As long as the cartridge being forward doesn't contact the lever, I would say it is no big deal.

Good luck,

Alan
Thats what mine was doing too shooting 147 gr Golden Sabers.The slide would lock back every round.I ordered a new slide stop, it came in today.
I am going to grind on the new one and have my original for back up in case i screw it up.I have a thread about it someplace too.
Golden sabers are sorta fat and when they slide fwd in the mag they are hitting the slide stop as was yours.:(

[hedgehog]

my springfield emp does this alot. I think its the front part of the feed lips are too tight. but im not sure.

[alank2]

Hi texjames,

First thing I would do is check the new slide stop lever to see if it has the same problem, you might get lucky and it doesn't need any grinding.

Here is what I did to mine:

http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/slidestop.gif

The yellow lines represent what it looked like originally. Note how they come out to a point that contacts the ammunition. I really don't see a good reason for the point as it extends well past the landing on the underside where the metal pin from an unloaded mag pushes.

The red line represents what I ground it down to. Basically I made a new line between the other two points. This left plenty of landing still on the underside.

The view is from the top. Since the magazine/ammo goes up I figured that would be the way you would want to grind it. Once done I would put a slight bevel on the underside of what you ground so there isn't any sharp edge the ammo can catch on.

I'm not saying this is the only or right way to do it, just that it worked for me.

Good luck,

Alan

[Tilos]

Alank2:
Thanks for the drawing, it helped a lot in your description.

I haven't tried defense ammo yet, but those shorter, blunt bullets seem to magnify this problem and now I know were to look.

Just sayin'
Tilos

[tomwalshco]

Pretty simple physics, really. When the top round is pushed into the chamber, friction will pull the round below against the inside of the magazine.

Shorter, flat-top hollow points will slide even further forward which causes the fatter part of the bullet to hit the mag lock lever. Long, slender WWB rounds won't do this, but stubby hollow points will.

You can push the top round back all you want, but the process will repeat itself on the next round, especially with strong spring pressure and rounds towards the top of the mag..

[rickmn50]

I would think it would be an common issue with all single stack magazines. There has to be a solution in the magazine design that could make me a million bucks. I am going to have to put some thought into this! Like Kahr and everyone else hasn't done this already.:o

[texjames]

Hi texjames,

First thing I would do is check the new slide stop lever to see if it has the same problem, you might get lucky and it doesn't need any grinding.

Here is what I did to mine:

http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/slidestop.gif

The yellow lines represent what it looked like originally. Note how they come out to a point that contacts the ammunition. I really don't see a good reason for the point as it extends well past the landing on the underside where the metal pin from an unloaded mag pushes.

The red line represents what I ground it down to. Basically I made a new line between the other two points. This left plenty of landing still on the underside.

The view is from the top. Since the magazine/ammo goes up I figured that would be the way you would want to grind it. Once done I would put a slight bevel on the underside of what you ground so there isn't any sharp edge the ammo can catch on.

I'm not saying this is the only or right way to do it, just that it worked for me.

Good luck,

Alan
So what view is it i am looking at on the stop? Straight in from the cross pin or underneath? I am not getting it...

[alank2]

Hi texjames,

Unload the pistol, VERIFY it is safe, field strip to remove the slide/barrel assembly. Put a single round in magazine and push it forward 1/8" or so. Feed it into the frame (with no slide on it).

This is a view of the part that sticks out from the slide lock lever and contacts the ammunition, looking from the top down, holding the left side of the frame towards you.

Hope this helps,

Alan

[texjames]

Hi texjames,

Unload the pistol, VERIFY it is safe, field strip to remove the slide/barrel assembly. Put a single round in magazine and push it forward 1/8" or so. Feed it into the frame (with no slide on it).

This is a view of the part that sticks out from the slide lock lever and contacts the ammunition, looking from the top down, holding the left side of the frame towards you.

Hope this helps,

Alan
OK thanks for the info but the ammo in the mag is pushing the
slide stop "up" so how doe's grinding on the upper part fix the slide locking problem?
The ball in follower in the magazine normally is what pushes the slide stop up when empty.

[alank2]

Hi texjames,

You aren't grinding the upper part of the slide stop, but how far it protrudes inward from the left side of the frame. What I did was hold the slide stop in my hand, oriented the way it would be in the gun and ran the point that contacts the ammunition up and down a file being held vertically. I wanted to file the point in the same direction that the magazine (and ammo travels). On the underside of this point is the "landing" for the metal pin in the magazines to push against when the mag is empty, so you have to be careful not to file too much of that landing away as well.

Good luck,

Alan

[tomwalshco]

Good job, alank2. Very resourceful. You could slide into being a Kel-Tec or Hi-Point owner easily. I am/used to be.

Straight lines and points are easier to deal with for machinists than rounded edges, which this should probably be. But I'll bet it's the the short, stubby hollow points causing the premature lock.... Pushed all the way forward in the mag, they are too fat to get past the slide lock point.

[alank2]

Hi,

Thanks tomwalshco. The slide stop and also the non beveled from of the magwell are two places Kahr needs to improve their molds or machining. I see no good reason why they shouldn't fix these issues except tooling cost, but you would think it would save them in support costs and general bad word of mouth for guns that don't run perfectly.

I've always been drawn to Kel Tec for their interesting guns and an interesting price. I've been scared off by too many odd broken part stories so far. I'm not against making a little change here and there if it addresses a problem. I like the quality of the Kahr PM9, it really seems top notch in the quality department, just needed a little tweaking.

Good luck,

Alan

[texjames]

I took a few pics to illustrate what i was thinking of doing.
A- take down that flat area slightly. B-Remove any point.
See how the fat nosed 124gr Golden saber hits the underside of slidelock.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n225/texjames/43624fb3.jpg?t=1281709932
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n225/texjames/a214e879.jpg?t=1281710204

[alank2]

Hi texjames,

Good pics. Actually the point right above "A" label is the point on the top of my diagram. Note how that point is what is touching your ammunition in the second picture. I don't see any need to remove the point at "B". What I did was eliminate the point above "A". I tried to make a flat line between "B" and the point on the other side of "A".

I tried to photoshop your picture a bit to show what I did, although it may look more aggressive than you would want to file. Keep in mind that I filed it up and down as if I were running a file up and down through the magwell, but I certainly filed the part OFF of the gun. Remember to keep checking the landing on the underside, you don't want the mag not to push up on it when empty.

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ealank2/ssl.jpg

Good luck,

Alan

[jocko]

nice job, very nice. as long as the follower continues to push up the slide stop, u should be good to go. Another reason for me anyhow why I like those 5% more strength wolffs magazien springs. For at the time of the last round the springs are in their weakest position to do something and my thoughts are that maybe that aextra 5% will get that slide stop up with less problems. It makes in no harder to load the magazine and actually 5% isn't much extra either. when one thinks about it..

[tomwalshco]

I've always been drawn to Kel Tec for their interesting guns and an interesting price. I've been scared off by too many odd broken part stories so far. I'm not against making a little change here and there if it addresses a problem. I like the quality of the Kahr PM9, it really seems top notch in the quality department, just needed a little tweaking.
Alan

I've got both a Kahr P380 & a KT P3AT. I actually have more confidence in the KT. Have never had an issue and it is an excellent pocket gun when that is called for. My P380 will balk sometimes and get a spent casing stuck in the chamber which causes a traffic jam. Had one this week stuck so tight, I had to bring it home and tap the casing out from the muzzle side with a dowel. It might be the crappy, dirty range ammo I use, but it still makes me apprehensive. Probably 400 rounds through it so far.

I shoot all that dirty stuff through the KT and it hums along. Even that steel cased, lacquer coated Russian stuff. Buffalo Bore +P, no problem. It's a handful, but I'm used to it now.

Also had a KT PF9 before I got a PM9. It was just too picky with range ammo for my liking. Spent the extra dough on the Kahr and absolutely love it. Glock 36 is my winter gun. Need more persuading for me to get a PM45....

My feelings about the KT complaints is that they stem mainly from limp-wristing. Although people swear on a stack of bibles they don't. KTs are light and snappy. Big, big difference between shooting a 2+lb Beretta 92 and an 11oz polymer 9mm. And it's not about squeezing tighter, either....

[jocko]

kt tech people have stated before that over 50% of the guns sent back to them for issues THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG. They are easy to limp IMO, that being said some people never want to admit that IT COULD JUST BE POSSBLE THEY ARE THE ISSUE and not the gun. Some guns are easy to limp than others for some reason or another. My lcp ruger just never gave me any shootig issues. I probably was guilty of limping my kt's over time but just never realized I was doing it If issues are sporadic, normally one can center n the limping thing. If different people shoot it and it does the same, NOPE,not limping it. Its tough to diagnose IMO as we never are at fault.

[Popeye]

It is also IMO that new pistols are more previlent to limp wristing malfunctions than older broken in pistols. 200 rounds through these small pocket pistols is sometimes is all that is needed to fix the problems. Once the P3at is broken in IMO it's a hard little pistol to beat. I abuse mine pretty good and it still shoots %100 .

[texjames]

The modification i did on my slide stop as i indicated above on A&B,
a little bit at a time, making sure slide stop still worked on empty mag.
I used a file and dressed it with a diamond stone then buffed it with my
dremel and jeweler rouge....
It worked.I went to the range to try out some new 45acp loads so
took the PM9 and those Remington 124gr Golden sabers that would
lock my slide back nearly everytime, two 6 rd mag no problems.
So i have the new stop io ordered as back up if needed.I tryed to take a pic of the modified and unmodified together but did not look right,
I might try again later.
modified on left...
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n225/texjames/ec25bb49.jpg?t=1281845760
modified below is lower slide lock
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n225/texjames/db6e7d19.jpg?t=1281845796

[kahrbrian]

Of course there is not an auto made that does not have this problem to some extent - especially single stacks.

[robdnor]

i just got a pm40 2 days ago, day 1 it was fine with both the 5 and 6 rnd mags (shooting federal) then today (day 2) the 5 rnd that came with it and a second i purchased worked absolutely fine, while at least twice per mag my 6 rnd caused the slide to lock back while still loaded (shooting american eagle- so pretty much just a cheapo federal)

initially i thought i was riding up on the slide lock, but nope, made sure to be mindful on the next mag, same thing

so i dont know what to think, would it be more likely to be the ammo? or the actual mag? or a combination?

id prefer not having to do any reshaping on my own if possible

oh, other than this happening the gun has been 100% thru break in
so im not worried with the gun per-se but more am i worried about the magazine/ and or if the extended mags cause more issues
1 less rnd isnt the end of the world when you got 5+1 and another 5 mag, its pretty much like a snubby with a quicker reload is how i see it IMPO, but id still prefer to have the option of larger mags in case of SHTF

i guess i could always go buy another extended mag and find out but id prefer not to if the extenders seem to be more problematic in general, that same money could get me another 5 rnd im less likely to question, but i just wanted to see if anyone could enlighten me as to wether they have had better experiences with the flush fits than the extenders as well, or if its just my one mag

thanks
-rob