PM9 vs. PF9 (Kel-Tec) [Archive]

Mudinyeri

07-29-2010, 08:49 PM

I happen to have the good fortune of owning both a Kahr PM9 and a Kel-Tec PF9 and thought I would take the opportunity to review two of the most popular semi-auto 9mm pocket guns on the market.

First some comparison photos:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/Mudinyeri/Guns/PM%20v%20PF/DSCN1272.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/Mudinyeri/Guns/PM%20v%20PF/DSCN1273.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/Mudinyeri/Guns/PM%20v%20PF/DSCN1274.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/Mudinyeri/Guns/PM%20v%20PF/DSCN1275.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/Mudinyeri/Guns/PM%20v%20PF/DSCN1276.jpg

Next, the weigh-in:

Unloaded weight, PM9: 14.9 oz.
Unloaded weight, PF9: 12.6 oz.

The weight difference is noticeable when carried in a pocket holster. I also have CrossBreed IWB holsters for both guns. The weight difference really is not noticeable when carried in an IWB holster.

Next up - range report. Stay tuned.

Will

07-29-2010, 08:56 PM

To me the PM9 looks better, is smaller, and just looks of higher quality..... I'm a PM9 fan.

Bawanna

07-29-2010, 09:49 PM

I'd sell the Kel Tec to somebody you don't like and use the money to buy fuel for the PM9.

Why drive a Kia when you can drive a Cadillac? Nothing can be lackin when your Cadillacin! So I'm told, never owned one, rode in a few. Where am I going and why am I in the back seat of this caddy?

oldtex

07-29-2010, 10:00 PM

Mudinyeri, thanks for posting this. I look forward to the next installment.

joje

07-29-2010, 10:59 PM

looking forward to it too! ive been very happy with my p3at and was going to get a pf9 when i happened to get my paws on a kahr... and realized i NEEDED one :)

texjames

07-29-2010, 11:25 PM

I am loving my new PM9 so far but ya have to admit the Kel Tec magizine ain'nt
hang'n out like the PM9...looks like they are not installed all the way..ya know?

n8tureboy

07-29-2010, 11:48 PM

The Kel Tec is a fine little gun and so is the PM9. I have the CW9 and the PF9 and wouldn't sell either one (unless I felt the need to feed my recent revolver fetish). I did however just sell a Glock 26. Only real difference to me is the pricetag.

DKD

07-30-2010, 07:57 AM

You've got to be kidding me. :confused:
There is no comparison between the two weapons. Now please understand, that doesn't mean there is no market for the one peice at a certain price break, but when placed head to head in any category, your not even in the same league much less same ball park.
Now let me see....hummmmm...Kia vs Ferrari...thats a good analogy, yea that about sums it up. There is an old saying..."If I have to explain, you wouldn;t understand"

n8tureboy

07-30-2010, 08:20 AM

recoilguy

07-30-2010, 08:46 AM

I can't wait to see the range report..........hopefully you only shoot about 15 rounds per weapon.

It never ceases to amaze me the folks who say the price tag is the only differance on things like guns, cars, motrcycles, boats, even lawn mowers. It is a wonderful thing to be happy with products that just work and cost very little. If that is your criteria then you will not appreciate the differences in things crafted as opposed to things cobbled.

Many people are now armed and protected because KT is on the market and that is a good thing. I would rather see someone protected because they can afford a KT then not protected because they cant afford gun of higher quality or value. There is a niche for KT and they fill it admirably. They don't even pretend to be where they aren't. Their owners will say it goes bang when they pull the trigger. Wow how can the bar be set any higher? The only differeance is the price tag?.......please.

RCG

Mudinyeri

07-30-2010, 10:43 AM

My plan for the range report, if I'm not rained out today, is to put 15 rounds through each gun on its own target as accurately as possible. I then intend to perform a couple practical shooting (self-defense scenario) drills with each gun. Keep in mind that the PM9 is brand new. I've gone through jocko's break-in and done a couple of my own things but it has never had a round fired through it. I own a CW40 so I'm familiar with the trigger so that won't be a problem. The Kel-Tec has been fluffed and buffed and has about 800 rounds through it.

There's no need to get all angst-ridden over the comparison. I'm doing it because I happen to own both guns and both are commonly carried as pocket guns. I have no agenda (hidden or otherwise) other than to compare the two weapons.

Quality-wise, I agree with those of you who made the Kia/Ferrari/Cadillac (well, maybe not Ferrari) comparisons. The PM9 does appear to be of higher quality than the PF9. I also like the looks and feel of the Kahr better than the Kel-Tec (although looks are low on my priority list for guns). In my hands, the Kahr feels more natural and feels like it points much better. The balance of the Kahr also seems much better. Many of these characteristics are highly subjective, however, so I'll leave it to each individual to gauge their own subjective measurements.

Bawanna

07-30-2010, 11:31 AM

Excellent post by Recoilguy. The KT does fill a niche and for people who can't afford more it fills the bill. I shouldn't be so admittedly downgrading to them. I just never liked em. A local dealer was trying to push Jimenez, make KT's look like Ferrari's. I told him he wouldn't last long with that plan. I haven't seen any on his table for a long time.
I do however agree with DKD. They are in a similar size category but the similarity ends there.
I too am anxious to see the report. Being virgin, the Kahr will be at a disadvantage but with the many perfect out of the box reports we've seen it should hold it's own. The fact that you've done the Jocko prep (and other stuff) should help things along too.

O'Dell

07-30-2010, 12:17 PM

I sold my PF9 after I bought CW9 and PM45. Not a bad pistol, but I didn't need it anymore.

DKD

07-30-2010, 12:54 PM

Hey 8N,

Didn't mean to ruffle anyones feathers much less get their panties in a wad.:eek:

I can personally handle a critique, but moronic I don't think so son. Ever manufacturer like people have their nich and cost point. Lets face it every one doesn't want most expensive or the cheapest on any given day. Everyone has bugetary constraints, thats a given and the market has room at both ends of the spectrum to fit a specific need of a vast number of people.

Look, I have owned and fired many weapons over the past 48 years, not only privately, but professsionally as a soldier and instructor. I currently own at least eight different manufactuers of pistols from Rugers, Berretta, Sig, Colts, Springfields, Tarus, Kimbers, Walthers and all points in between so I do know a little of what I speak. I am an equal opportunity offender, however I do know quality when I see it and shoot it.

I never said they weren't servicable, I did however say there are very clear cut differences between the two pistols. The only areas the Keltec could compete is price and weight otherwise not so much. How about fit, finish, engineering, trigger design and let off, ergonomic's, balance...need I say anymore.

One very big mistake people often make is when they try to compare Price to Value. Cheap is not synonomous with Value! There is cheap and then there is a good value for the price....they are definatley not the same thing.

Mudinyeri

07-30-2010, 01:38 PM

If you guys want to keep squabbling would you mind starting your own thread? I was hoping to keep this one relatively clear of such extraneous ... well, you get the idea.

kahrseye

07-30-2010, 02:17 PM

To say these two weapons are "not in the same ballpark" in "any category" is a flat out moronic statement. These two guns are extremely similiar in every category. To say otherwise is laughable. You can have a personal bias for one or the other but get real about your assessment. These are two highly popular guns for many of the same reasons. Let me help you with your analogy, how about a honda civic and a ford focus? Apples to apples. And I love kahrs by the way.

They aren't in the same ballpark. I've owned 2 KT's and I can tell you the fit, finish, and overall quality is not anywhere close to a Kahr. I think the design of the Kahr is also superior. The trigger alone is worth the price of a Kahr. Much smoother and consistent. You want to compare them? Sure they're both guns, both 9mm, and both go bang. End of comparison. Now, if you want a cheap...inexpensive gun...buy the KT. If you want a piece of quality and you'll pay for it....buy the Kahr. Never could shoot the KT's worth a damn.:banplease:

copterdrvr

07-30-2010, 02:36 PM

Hey "Mud", I'll be interested to hear what you have to say as I too have both pistols and I HAVE shot them together.

Definitely most noticable is the difference between the two pistols with regard to perceived or "felt" recoil.

I know the PM9 weighs two ounces more than the P9F but I find the difference in recoil to be significant. I'm sure I've never shot even a box of 115 grn bullets in the Keltec as my hand has had enough at about half that. I let a friend of mine shoot my Keltec and after two shots he handed it back to me and said "that's enough"! The first time I took out the PM9 I fired 200 rounds and I quit because I ran out of bullets!

I'll be interested to hear your opinion on the recoil issue.

n8tureboy

07-30-2010, 03:03 PM

They aren't in the same ballpark.

Well I guess this is a useless thread then. Don't know why the OP is wasting his time on 2 guns that are sooooooooooo different. When did Kahrtalk turn into Glocktalk??? :confused: To each his own but I love both guns. I doubt if I ever have to shoot a bad guy with it he'll be saying, "damn the finish on that gun isn't near as nice as the Kahr he could have shot me with".:D I have the sudden urge to go shoot the KT and try to prove to myself what a piece of crap it is.

DKD

07-30-2010, 03:15 PM

This will be my last post on this thread short of someone throwing down on me...:rolleyes:
We all here are in good company and should all be of good cheer and toward that end if I had been a bit harsh in my crticism, I will apologize, for that was not my intent.

Anyway, with that being said, just a parting shot....the previous posts to the best of my recollection are in line as the original post was stated as "PM9 vs PF9" or wasn't it? If this is in fact true than all the posts are relavent to the topic of discussion and don't need their own thread.
Now I feel alot better...ya'll have a great day.

n8tureboy

07-30-2010, 03:23 PM

deadhead1971

07-30-2010, 03:54 PM

:popcorn:

This has been fun to watch with detached amusement. I have not fired a kel-tec so I can't comment. I do like that the kel-tec has some rails for lasers & lights.

Bawanna

07-30-2010, 06:07 PM

:) MUD,
I think that your original intent for this thread was perfectly stated.
I for one am interested in your findings. If I am correct WE are still living in a FREE country.
Don't let all this squabbling & bickering upset you. I enjoy reading un-biased comparisons of different firearms. I think they can be VERY helpful to potential buyers.

THIS IS THE EXACT KIND OF THING THIS FORUM SHOULD ENCOURAGE !!! IN MY OPINION.:mad:

SO................YOU GO BOY ! :D

Exactomundo! Cept I aint' gonna risk an a$$ whoopin and call ya boy!

Dietrich

07-30-2010, 06:31 PM

I love all guns as long as they perform as they are supposed to when they are needed to.I have a Rossi .357 snubnose that I got at a gun show for $275.00.It works flawlessly and is my constant companion in my pickup.The cost of a firearm doesn`t mean much if it won`t fire.I feel the same way about women.If they don`t function as needed,time to trade them in.[if Zena or mx5fan are lurking,that ought to get `em stirred up.]

n8tureboy

07-30-2010, 07:04 PM

Well, your Rossi .357 snubbie is crap compared to my S&W .357 snubbie! Not even in the same ballpark! Sorry, I couldn't resist. :)
Later

jreXD9

07-30-2010, 07:44 PM

I had a PF9. Won't have another. I have a PM9. I like it so much that I knew I wouldn't be carrying my XD9sc anymore, so I sold the XD9sc and got another Kahr, this time the CW45. The wife has a CW9. I'm guess I'm sold on Kahr handguns. IMO, there is no real comparison between the PF and the PM. The PM is easy to shoot and accurate. The PF is nasty and I wasn't accurate with it. The PF rattles when you shake it it. The PM9 is TIGHT. The PM is easy to break down and clean. The PF was a pain. Yes, the PF is inexpensive and the PM is not. Is the dependability of my PM worth $200 more than the troublesome PF? IMO, yessirree, worth every extra penny, especially if I ever need to confidently pull it out for defense.

Mudinyeri

07-30-2010, 08:37 PM

Conditions

Temp: 90 F
Humidity: Soupy
Wind: Still

I took both guns out to the range this afternoon. Upon arrival, I ran a couple magazines through the PM9 just to get a feel for the trigger. That way, it was as least close to a fair comparison.

As we all suspected, the Kahr feels like a much higher quality gun. There is definitely less felt recoil. The trigger is much smoother. Both guns shot flawlessly. The PM9 is a fantastic gun and I would highly recommend it. I like it even better than my CW40. The Kel-Tec is an inexpensive and reliable gun. It is not buttery smooth like the Kahr but it performs without complaint and would make a good budget carry gun.

Here are the results of the 15 round aimed fire tests:

Kel-Tec: 14 of 15 rounds on the target, 4 in the black

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/Mudinyeri/Guns/PM%20v%20PF/IMG00297-20100730-1643.jpg

Kahr: 14 of 15 rounds on the target, 3 in the Bull's Eye, 3 off the black

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/Mudinyeri/Guns/PM%20v%20PF/IMG00295-20100730-1638.jpg

Here are the results of the six-round rapid fire test:

Kel-Tec: 5 of 6 rounds on target

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/Mudinyeri/Guns/PM%20v%20PF/IMG00298-20100730-1646.jpg

Kahr: 6 of 6 rounds on target

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/Mudinyeri/Guns/PM%20v%20PF/IMG00299-20100730-1650.jpg

Bawanna

07-30-2010, 09:29 PM

Mudinyeri

07-30-2010, 10:09 PM

Are you right or left handed? You seem to be pulling to the left with both guns although a bit more with the Kel Tec. Even in rapid fire your pulling left.
Good report. Shoot a couple hundred more thru the Kahr, then do the same test again. See if those groups don't tighten up some with some trigger time.
Appreciate your efforts and letting us all know how it went.

Yes, I consistently pull to the left when shooting two-handed ever since I severely broke my right ring finger (I'm right handed). I probably should have mentioned that up front. It's funny, I shoot better with either hand solo than I do two-handed. If anyone reads this and figures out how to help me fix that it will make my day! :D I'm not milking. I've tried my trigger finger in virtually ever position imaginable. It seems as soon as my left hand clamps down over my deformed right ring finger everything pulls left. I can put together tight shot groups but they're always left. I'm not embarrassed by the shot groups with these two pistols at seven yards. They could have been a bit tighter, sure, but they're pretty consistent.

On a related note, I put another 100 rounds through the Kahr after the tests and things are getting better.

kahrdriver

07-30-2010, 11:24 PM

To say these two weapons are "not in the same ballpark" in "any category" is a flat out moronic statement. These two guns are extremely similiar in every category. To say otherwise is laughable. You can have a personal bias for one or the other but get real about your assessment. These are two highly popular guns for many of the same reasons. Let me help you with your analogy, how about a honda civic and a ford focus? Apples to apples. And I love kahrs by the way.

I understand what DKD is saying. I don't think he was criticizing the Kel-Tec......just stating that it is a cheaper gun. Taurus makes 1911's....but they are not a Colt. That doesn't mean they are bad, just cheaper. I do believe the Kahr is higher quality than the Kel-Tec. That is common sense. Again, the Kel Tec is still a good, functional weapon and a great bargain. A close friend has one of Kel Tecs 32's. It is quite reliable but only so-so in accuracy. He had one of their .40 cals. and the same holds true, albeit the accuracy was not good enough for him to keep it. To me, this is acceptable performance for a bargain priced gun. I do expect more....and get more from my Kahr. I suspect most Kahrs will outshoot Kel-Tecs BUT....as long as they are both reliable, they both represent value.

Bawanna

07-31-2010, 12:14 AM

Yes, I consistently pull to the left when shooting two-handed ever since I severely broke my right ring finger (I'm right handed). I probably should have mentioned that up front. It's funny, I shoot better with either hand solo than I do two-handed. If anyone reads this and figures out how to help me fix that it will make my day! :D I'm not milking. I've tried my trigger finger in virtually ever position imaginable. It seems as soon as my left hand clamps down over my deformed right ring finger everything pulls left. I can put together tight shot groups but they're always left. I'm not embarrassed by the shot groups with these two pistols at seven yards. They could have been a bit tighter, sure, but they're pretty consistent.

On a related note, I put another 100 rounds through the Kahr after the tests and things are getting better.

I meant no criticism of your shot groups, mostly wondering about the consistent left hits. I think the groups will get tighter too with more trigger time.
Does the ring finger hurt in a shooting position? If memory serves milking would push you right if your right handed. Both guns shot left consistently, mostly why I wondered.
Perhaps experiment with different positions on the weak hand, either more wrap around or maybe less. I'd like to see a picture of your hands in a shooting position. I don't claim to be no crack shot expert but like to figure stuff like this out.
I'm glad things are getting better.

cgo99

07-31-2010, 09:05 AM

I thank you Mudinyeri for the report. It pretty much confirms what some of us suspected, that you can buy a cheap car and an expensive car and while both of them will take to your destination the ride in the expensive car will be much better.
I'm for one need all the help I can get shooting properly so a better fitted quality gun is a must.
Nothing against Kel-Tec but I have to believe that better fit and balance will have to translate in better accuracy and again I'm sure there are people out there that will shoot well with anything but unfortunately I'm not one of those people.

Mudinyeri

07-31-2010, 09:18 AM

I meant no criticism of your shot groups, mostly wondering about the consistent left hits. I think the groups will get tighter too with more trigger time.
Does the ring finger hurt in a shooting position? If memory serves milking would push you right if your right handed. Both guns shot left consistently, mostly why I wondered.
Perhaps experiment with different positions on the weak hand, either more wrap around or maybe less. I'd like to see a picture of your hands in a shooting position. I don't claim to be no crack shot expert but like to figure stuff like this out.
I'm glad things are getting better.

I didn't take it as criticism. I wouldn't have posted the targets if I was worried about that.

My disfigured finger does not hurt while shooting. My understanding is that a milking motion with the right hand will push shots to the left. Also, too little finger on the trigger will push shots to the left. Believe me, I've analyzed and tried everything I know of. I need to videotape myself while shooting so I can do some further analysis.

The really strange thing is that it all goes away when shooting solo with either hand. Here's a target with solo off hand shots. Notice how they're all within a vertical plane of about an inch with the exception of the one flier out to the lower right. This is with a different gun but my results are consistent with virtually any gun. Normally, when picking up a new gun or someone else's gun, I will use a little Kentucky windage to get things on target. I didn't want to do that in this test.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/Mudinyeri/Guns/IMG00285-20100706-1908.jpg

recoilguy

07-31-2010, 09:53 AM

Popeye

07-31-2010, 10:01 AM

I have a P3at and it's a good pistol for what it is and what it's intended for, but really all you have to do is look at the difference in the quality of the two pistols to see which one is the better pistol and which one shoots the best. The one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb when looking at the two side by side in those pic's is the difference in the height of the bore in relationship to the trigger. Just by those pics alone you can see the KT 's recoil would be more making a folllow up shot slower and harder to get back on target, and a lot less fun to shoot. It is true each one has a place in the small pistol market . One is at the lower end of the price range and the other at the top end. I just do not see how you can compare these two pistols to one another. It's not a fair comparision for the KT.
Kahr's are meant to last a lifetime and are built accordingly. KT's are not, it's as simple as that.

copterdrvr

07-31-2010, 02:46 PM

Isn't it amazing how much difference there is in the recoil between these two pistols! I can crank off two well-placed shots with the PM9 much faster than the P9F, which means that the gun is more controllable when fired-to me.

After putting the guns side by side and just spending alot of time looking at them, the only thing I can think of (and it IS very small but who knows the physics!) is the fact that there is more of the pistol above your hand with the P9F than there is with the PM9.

The following is a picture of my two pistols with the BORE AXIS lined up. You can plainly see that the PM9 sits lower in the hand than the P9F. I believe this is the reason why the PM9 is more controllable than the P9F and follow-up shots are easier with the Kahr AND the perceived recoil is lower with the PM9. And by "lower" I mean how it sits in your hand.

CT laser enroute for the PM9!

Just my two cents.

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx186/copterdrvr/6.jpg

Mudinyeri

08-01-2010, 12:56 PM

Nice report......The results were nicely reported. Thank you.

When you shot 2 handed do you shoot with your strong arm locked or your weak arm locked? are you using a weaver stance? Where is the thumb on your weak hand located?

Watch this video YouTube - Todd Jarrett on pistol shooting. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48) it really helped me get my grip and my stance to a point I can shoot much more consistantly. Good luck.

RCH

Thanks.

I've watched a number of training videos, including several by Jarrett, to no avail.

My stance most closely resembles the Modified Weaver stance. Neither arm is totally locked but both are extended nearly fully. My weak thumb is usually along the frame of the left side of the weapon under the slide (although I've tried a number of things).

It has to have something to do with my support hand but I haven't figured it out yet. This came after a full 90 degree break of my right ring finger and after years of shooting without this problem. It's not the ring finger itself because I can shoot straight with just my right hand. My theory is that it is somehow related to how my support hand engages my disfigured finger.

jlottmc

08-01-2010, 01:46 PM

You may be putting pressure on that finger and mashing it down. I don't know how or anything else, that is just what I can come up with.

rholmes69

08-01-2010, 07:10 PM

I think this is a great comparo.

When I was in the market for a concealable pistol, I knew that a Taurus Slim, PF9 or P11 or other variant was what I wanted. The Kahr was on the champagne end of the list for the beer budget I had. I knew it was an awesome candidate, but out of my price range. I google searched and fondled and read everything for a solid two months. I shot the Taurus and the PF9 too. It just so happened that when I went to the gun show to buy my PF9 I had settled on, some dealer there had an MK9 that was shuffled off in the corner of the display cases and tucked in an Uncle Mike's holster. I recognized the silhoutte of the back end from drooling over them on the web. I asked what they wanted for it, and couldn't believe my good fortune when I walked away with it (used) at $500 OTD. That was only $150 more than I thought I would be paying for a PF9 at the time new.

I think these are what will help people make a VERY important decision. Choosing what to protect your life with is no willy nilly choice. And to the original discussion over comparing them, I look at it like this. If both were cars, both will take you from point A to point B. One will do it more comfortably than the other. And one will be doing it for a lot longer than the other. In that sense, they both perform their jobs well.

But who doesn't love looking over at the poor kid in his beat up taurus as you cruise round in your 911. :)

unclenunzie

08-02-2010, 08:24 AM

Mudinyeri,

Thanks for making the comparison. The pictures and your range report are helpful to anyone who might be considering a pocketable 9 mil.

I'm a PM9 owner and shooter, it was my first and currently only Kahr. When I scoped out Kahr before buying, I was a little nervous about the Internet reports regarding hit-or-miss on getting a "good one". As it happens mine was 100% perfect out of the box to about 1100 rounds, when it had a couple misfeeds while trying a new lot of GD 115gr. A replaced outer recoil spring and she was good to go.

I paid roughly 700+ for the matte stainless with night sights. Expensive when compared to the Kel-Tec PF9 on price alone, but when factoring in the slide and critical parts are made from bar stock, and the polygonal barrel, and two mags, excellent trigger, I feel the PM9 is a bargain. Granted you don't get lifetime warranty like with KT but parts are available and not expensive.

It also happens that (for me) I shoot great with it. I am amazed frankly that such a light, small pistol could be so comfortable in hand and be so accurate. I think it is a combination of balance, grip feel, sights, tight lockup, and hi-quality barrel.

Saturday I went looking at a couple fun stores for my next handgun, which is just to add something to my small collection. I handled a PF9 and felt it OK, similar but larger than my LCP, which is a near direct copy of the KT P3AT. I felt it would be a serviceable weapon and I am familiar with the guts of it. I feel for the price you are getting a good quality weapon with excellent support, and would not hesitate to buy one, but only after checking out other makes in the same price range. Which I do whenever considering a purchase.

In my state, which has painfully slow procedures for obtaining permission to buy a handgun, I have to be very choosy. I have to be sure what I buy will put a smile on my face for a long time. So because I can pay more I will generally opt for the higher end guns and pay more for them. In the future if I ever needed to sell, those guns would command a better price than the more workmanlike products.

Anyway in the store I had mentioned my left-handedness so as to focus more on lefty friendly guns. My salesman mentioned H&K P30, a fine gun and totally ambi. I told him I already had one :). But this was while I was handling the PF9, and he seemed surprised I would even look at the KT, considering my ownership of an H&K. I told him I was no gun snob, I would consider anything so long at it met my needs and desires. I think next time I will choose my words more carefully, as I think he was a bit taken aback.

So in this long round about way, I am saying you get what you pay for. Both guns deliver a pocketable 9 mil with similar functional characteristics. Both guns hit their mark within their respective price ranges.

kahrbrian

08-02-2010, 08:51 AM

Isn't it amazing how much difference there is in the recoil between these two pistols! I can crank off two well-placed shots with the PM9 much faster than the P9F, which means that the gun is more controllable when fired-to me.

I just went through this process mentally and went with the PM9. I could have grabbed a CDNN special with two mags for about $290 after tansfer fee. I instead got an ANIB PM9 for $500 - but I based it on comparisons like this on shootability. I did NOT want to have to stick on a rubber sleeve to shoot the gun well, so the PM9 is the ticket. I have some posts on it on this forum.

jocko

08-02-2010, 04:59 PM

I just went through this process mentally and went with the PM9. I could have grabbed a CDNN special with two mags for about $290 after tansfer fee. I instead got an ANIB PM9 for $500 - but I based it on comparisons like this on shootability. I did NOT want to have to stick on a rubber sleeve to shoot the gun well, so the PM9 is the ticket. I have some posts on it on this forum.

u almost fell victim to the low dollar (better deal ) price thing. You paid more for your kahr and you certainly got a hell of alot more to. Nutin for nutin today my friend. the kt PF9 is an ok gun, just not a fun gun to shoot at all, let alone longevity is far far far less to. I have 30,000 rounds through my PM9 and to me it is the most fun gun I own. I actually don't know what the longevity ofthe PM9 is either, Like a car, when you wear the tires out, you replace them, not throwbn thecar away. So far I havehad one cracked magazine follower... If it was painful to shoot, I would peddle it

Mudinyeri

08-02-2010, 05:17 PM

I would agree that the PF9 is not as much fun to shoot as the PM9. The PM is much smoother with less felt recoil. The trigger of the PM is entirely different than the trigger of the PF. You can see in my targets that the harder, longer and less predictable pull of the PF's trigger exacerbates the problems I'm having with shooting low/left.

I just did a few dry fire drills with a laser bore sighter this afternoon and have some new theories on why I'm shooting this way. Hopefully, I will be able to make corrections that reduce the impact of my problem. Even if I can make some headway on solving the problem, the PF9 will always be more difficult to shoot accurately (and precisely) than the PM9. I'm fortunate to have a buddy who wants the PF9 which gave me the opportunity/excuse to pick up the PM9. :D

kahrbrian

08-02-2010, 08:58 PM

Another advantage of the PM9 is that you can dry fire it with no problems all you want. The PF9 requires snap caps, and this is a pain. I know becuase my SA XD 45C needs them.

mr surveyor

08-02-2010, 09:42 PM

Since I am an admin on one of the KT boards, you'd think I would really be raising a stink...... naaaahhhhh. I love guns, and especially guns with a dedicated purpose. I've owned several KT firearms... P11, P32, P3AT, PF9, Sub2000...... Through all of them over the years, I learned to appreciate George Kelgren'[s ingenuity in designing compact, lightweight firearms. Kelgren (Kel-Tec) jumped on the polymer bandwagon back in the mid 90's and was a driving force in the development of sub-compact, upper caliber handguns. His early "mission" with the Kel-Tec line was developing hide-away, back-up guns for law enforcement officers, and served the purpose pretty well. The biggest problem with the KT pistols seems to be the weight to power ratio.... in other words, a tiny, super light weight handgun launching the hottest projectile possible. In some hands they function flawlessly... in others, they fail. Last I heard, the actual return rate of KT pistols was under 5%.... that seems high, but with such a light weight package there's a certain percentage of human error involved.

Now, that being said, I consider the Kahr pistols to be superior in quality of both materials and manufacturing, but all I have in the Kahr line to make that comparison is my CW9. As a matter of fact, out of necessity for a new wheel gun for the field, I traded a perfectly good KT PF9 and crappy (rusting) Rossi .38for a S&W Airweight a couple of years ago. I missed the PF9 immensly, but substituted my Sig P239 for certain days and still had my perfectly good KT P3AT for the others. Last year, during the ammo crunch, I decided my 4 year old P3AT just couldn't be fed enough, and it got traded (along with $200) for a NIB CW9. I had read and heard all the horror stories of the Kahr bashers (same as the Kel-Tec bashers, the Kimber bashers, etc), but also knew that hands on experience was more important. My CW9 has been flawless through some 800 rounds (I used to shoot that much in a month) and I couldn't be more pleased.

Do I miss my P3AT..... yep! The CW9 just ain't the deep cover boot gun that the P3AT was. But, I still have mrs surv's P32 in a pinch, but she won't part with it. If gun/fun money was still available, I would have kept the PF9 and P3AT, as well as buying the CW9, MK9, and probably a few others.

And, as far as the PM9 to PF9 comparison...... there's a bit of major difference to conosider. The PM9 really fits in between the P3AT and PF9 as far as overall size. Actually, the CW9 is closer dimensionally to the PF9.

OK, I'll shut up.... just hated to see this wonderful forum become a bashing board for all that ain't Kahr.

surv

jeepster09

08-02-2010, 10:37 PM

Popeye

08-03-2010, 08:50 AM

Very well put Surv. and I understand the ammo frustrations of owning a .380. Like you said though the P3at definately has a place in this world when you want to carry deep concealed. It is by far the best choice for me when ride the M/C. It fits into a vest pocket way better than my PM9.
The P3at I have isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I'm not sure I'd ever buy another .380 though of any brand. I hope people do not think I was bashing KT or the pistols but I just do not think the comparison is a fair comparison in anyway shape or form. I think the CW9 would be a closer comparison but even that's a bit of a streatch.
Being and owner of both brands,I'll say this. Both have been 100% reliable for me, and that's important being there both SD pistols.

copterdrvr

08-03-2010, 07:15 PM

I agree with Popeye as I own a Keltec P11, P9F, P3AT and a Kahr CW9 as well as a PM9. None of these pistols have EVER failed in any way, shape or form.

The difference between the two manufacturers is that I didn't shoot any of the Keltecs until I had spent a fair amount of time polishing the feedramps and chambers as I found them to be very rough. Both of my Kahrs were initially shot without polishing the ramps. Because I'm kinda paranoid, I've polished the Kahrs to a mirror finish like my Keltecs. The difference was that the Kahrs polished up WAAAAAY faster than the Keltecs.

Doesn't really matter though as all of the pistols now have feed ramps that are polished to a mirror shine and they all are 100% reliable. I'd MUUUUCH rather shoot the Kahrs though-they are way more enjoyable to run some magazines through!!!

Popeye

08-04-2010, 07:27 AM

Copterdrvr
I did shoot my Parkerized P3at before I did the Fluff and Buff and had a few problems with FTE. After I did the feed ramp and the slide rails with 2500 grit emory paper and 200 rounds the thing has been flawless. Some people might think doing a F&B might be a PITA, but I found it to be, Me just getting to know my pistol better. I was so happy with the way it turned out, that at a later time decided to polish the entire barrel. I liked that so much that I did the barrel of my XD9 sc and the PM9 the same way. They also are the all black finish except for the barrels. Imo polishing the barrels makes a nice difference on how the pistols cycle especially on the P3at.
That little p3at I swear gets better with age. I have somewhere around 500 rounds through it, I guess? To be honest I never counted after the first 200 and like I mentioned earler it's not going anywhere. It's not like I spent allot of money on it to feel like I need to carry it allot to justify my purchase of it. It has it's place, and when I feel I need to go deep Concealed it does it's job. For me it's not a range toy, and never was intended to be one. It's a tool, nothing more.
Kel Tec are IMO a nice pistol for the money and fill a need for allot of people very well. From what I hear there costomer service is excellent. Fortunately I never had to fine that out first hand.

texjames

08-04-2010, 07:56 AM

I have tried a number of Kahrs over the years.....everyone had failure to feed when changing mags. I tried polishing the feedramps etc. and so forth. I no longer own a Kahr due to lack of confidence :40: or perhaps fear of not having it work when needed most.:eek:
I think the Kahr [Cadillac] is way pricey for the quality. I prefer carring my Para Ordnances. However I recently aquired a Kel Tec P11 [Chevy] and have had absolutly no problems with it for about a third the price and it is fast becoming my daily carry piece. Several of my local dealers have said they have seen the same issues and get a fair number of Kahrs traded in for other makes. :behindsofa: Bring on the bashing......sometimes price is not the only factor to look at. The Kel Tec trigger sucks compared to the Kahr but I can live with that.:33:
I am wondering if Kahr made some mods to the current available PM9's.
I had heard about the needed 200 round break in.I was wanting one before i bought mine.So i just wrote a letter to Kahr Customer Service
and asked them about the problems during break in.Why a expensive gun
would fail until so many rounds had to go through it.The letter was answered after a couple days by a Gun Tech.He said yes you can expect a few failures, FTE etc during the first 200 rounds break in.He suggested
USA brass cased ammo, white box Winchester would be ok, but put 50 of what i will carry as defense ammo through it before putting it in to service. So i have shot 220 rounds through my PM9 with zero failures except one i caused trying to sling shot chamber a round, my trigger finger was pushing on the end of the slide release/take down and i managed to push it into the kidney hole some how.Other then that its been flawless.
I am going to the range today and put another 50 white box though it and then 50 Remington Golden Saber 124 gr JHP's though it too.
I would not call it a cadilac.I got mine from Buds for $606 and a
Glock G26 is about $530...the slimmer PM9 gives me something along those lines but slimmer.A lot of new owners are reporting zero failures these days .:)

O'Dell

08-04-2010, 04:40 PM

I have tried a number of Kahrs over the years.....everyone had failure to feed when changing mags. I tried polishing the feedramps etc. and so forth. I no longer own a Kahr due to lack of confidence :40: or perhaps fear of not having it work when needed most.:eek:
I think the Kahr [Cadillac] is way pricey for the quality. I prefer carring my Para Ordnances. However I recently aquired a Kel Tec P11 [Chevy] and have had absolutly no problems with it for about a third the price and it is fast becoming my daily carry piece. Several of my local dealers have said they have seen the same issues and get a fair number of Kahrs traded in for other makes. :behindsofa: Bring on the bashing......sometimes price is not the only factor to look at. The Kel Tec trigger sucks compared to the Kahr but I can live with that.:33:

As mentioned earlier I had a PF9. It was OK but choked on every other round of WWB. This is fairly common according to posters on the KT forum. Not a big problem - I just shot up the rest of it in my CW9 and P225, which had no issues with it. I also had a P11. It was more problematic, and was never 100%. Plus, I couldn't stand the trigger. So ended my experiment with KT when I sold both.

As far a my Kahr's reliability, I have had three with a combined total of over 1700 rounds w/o one failure of any kind, not one. Your experience is a bit hard to understand. Over the last 40+ years I have owned Brownings, Colts, S&W's, a Kimber, a Para, SIG's, Tauruses, a Springfield, Rugers, KT's, and Kahr's. The only brands in which I have never had a failure are S&W, SIG, and Kahr. Guess what brands of handgun I carry one of which every day.

Bawanna

08-04-2010, 04:45 PM

:confused::o:( Kel Tec? :crazy::84:

copterdrvr

08-04-2010, 05:14 PM

have to admit that the P3AT is one of my favorite carry guns as it's soooooo tiny!!! As I've said earlier, I've almost jumped in the pool with my 380 in my pocket because I forgot it was there!!!!!

jocko

08-04-2010, 05:19 PM

have to admit that the P3AT is one of my favorite carry guns as it's soooooo tiny!!! As I've said earlier, I've almost jumped in the pool with my 380 in my pocket because I forgot it was there!!!!!

I owned 3 of them back about 4 years ago and had to send all 3 back a total of 17 times. still have the service paperwork around here somewhere. I just had every imiagiable issue witht hem that one could even dream of. I am told they hav eworked alot of that out of them today. I have an lcp that has never given one issues and it is a copy of the kt, only IMO jsut alittle better made,but as any Ruger lcp owner knows they had to recall all 50,000 of them to ,,, to make they right and indeed Ruger stepped up to the plate and I just don't know of any unhappty campers who own the Ruger lcp. Kt stand sbehind their guns, that is for sure but for me they just never could fix any thing right. It and the lcp just dissapear in ur pocket though, but so does my P380 also...

I just find myself always grabbing my PM9 for pocket carry, so my two 380's just sit..

copterdrvr

08-04-2010, 07:40 PM

Well, I love my PM9 but my P3AT is still the smallest pistol I own that I'm comfortable carrying. I have a CT laser installed on the Keltec and it's a perfect fit in my cargo pockets. I'm awaiting the arrival of my CT laser for my PM9 and then I'll have to re-assess my carry options.

O'Dell

08-04-2010, 11:11 PM

:confused::o:( Kel Tec? :crazy::84:

Funny! I guess that's what I get for not telling you that there was going to be a pop quiz.

Bawanna

08-05-2010, 12:03 AM

Funny! I guess that's what I get for not telling you that there was going to be a pop quiz.

You just can't leave a pot hole full of water in front of Bawanna and not expect him to jump in it or perhaps roll thru it very very fast. Yo deserve better than that for sure.
Never done good on them Pop Quiz's.

joje

08-05-2010, 10:47 AM

chalk me up as another happy p3at owner. got to have near a 1000 rounds through it now and so far its been equally reliable as my (newer) pm9: 0% failure rate using within-spec ammo. the poor sights and long trigger make it difficult to shoot, but it does launch the bullets exactly where you point it when the trigger breaks, meaning with good hands and eyes it is WAY more accurate than people give it credits for.

i was going to buy a pf9 since i consider keltec products unrivaled cost-benefit wise in the pocket pistol market, but then i got my hands on a kahr and after that i couldnt get myself to buy another "happy meal finish" gun, regardless of price and reliability.

also agree that george kellgren has a lot of thinking-outside-the-box in his minimalist designs. perhaps more than justin moon and definitely more than the average big dog.