Lakeline Metal Followers testing in my 2010 PM45

[wyntrout]

I bought some Lakeline followers to try in 9mm(two), .40(three), and .45(two). I had no problems with my regular 9mm and .45 Kahr mags, but was having problems with my P40 with failures to feed. I'll report my results on the .45 followers here. I installed a Lakeline follower in each of two mags... one a 5-round flush-based Kahr mag and the other a 7-round extended grip Kahr mag. All of my Kahr .45 mags have the correct new springs and there are no weak springs involved.

I took a bunch of pictures of the stock and LL followers out of the mags in the mags, and with one or more rounds inserted in the mags with both types of followers. There are way too many and I can't post them all, but I'll post a few of the more important ones and I will show comparisons and the wear from testing.

First off, the two mags with the LL followers would not lock the slide back when empty under actual firing until empty, or with an empty mag inserted and the slide pulled to the rear. It just didn't happen with MY PM45. YMMV. Other than that, the mags seemed to feed several kinds of ammo without any other problems.

The angle of of presentation seemed about the same for loaded cartridges. First the Kahr follower on the left and the LL on the right.

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/Kahr%20pistol%20mags%20tested%20with%20Lakeline%20 Followers/IMG_7256.jpg

Loaded with one Speer 230-gr GDSB each:

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/Kahr%20pistol%20mags%20tested%20with%20Lakeline%20 Followers/IMG_7267.jpg

My marks on the two LL--equipped mags:

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/Kahr%20pistol%20mags%20tested%20with%20Lakeline%20 Followers/IMG_7310.jpg

Wear from testing:

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/Kahr%20pistol%20mags%20tested%20with%20Lakeline%20 Followers/IMG_7309.jpg

There does not seem to be enough of a landing area for the slide lock to be actuated. I fired a box each of American Eagle and Blazer-Aluminum-cased 230-gr FMJ, as well as some Speer GDSB in both the LL mags and the stock mags, all with the same results... feed but no lock back with the Lakeline followers.

I appreciate Adolphe offering these aftermarket followers and other parts, but my results from MY PM45 show they're not ready for all pistols, in mine anyhow. Your results might vary.

Wynn

[wyntrout]

Not a great picture of my PM45:

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/Kahr%20pistol%20mags%20tested%20with%20Lakeline%20 Followers/20160311_163133.jpg

I did most shooting at 7 yards, but ran the target out to 10 yards and had to bring it back after the first 3 offhand rounds:

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/Kahr%20pistol%20mags%20tested%20with%20Lakeline%20 Followers/20160311_162845.jpg

Then I ran the target back out so I could practice my pushing, jerking and yanking. I even put one in the "10" near the bottom. :)

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/Kahr%20pistol%20mags%20tested%20with%20Lakeline%20 Followers/20160311_163106.jpg

Wynn :)

[Nytcrawler93]

This may be stupid but are you 100% sure that your springs are oriented properly? I notice one of mine was backwards when I swapped to the LL followers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bills1873]

Slide lockback is 100% in my CM45 5 round & PM9 6 round magazines after the last round. Could the pin be working out a wee bit?

[wyntrout]

I don't claim to be an expert, but this isn't my first rodeo and I advise people all of the time on things with Kahrs and the mags. I checked the slide lock pin insertion frequently as well as the screw, washer, and spring's tension and proper location/insertion. I am well aware of magazine spring orientation and yes, mine are installed correctly. I consciously check that I put the springs in with the free end to the front.

My springs... all of my .45 Kahr ones... 9 total... were brittle or of the wrong size(from the factory!)... too few coils(14 instead of 18 coils), and they were all replaced by Kahr.

The correct springs for the 7-rounders have four more coils and are the hardest I've ever had to install! The first took about 20 minutes and I found that screaming and cussing loudly did not help, but did make me feel better. Here's my post on the .45 mag springs all failing or being the wrong size:

http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?25299-PM45-6-round-magazine-spring-catatrosphic-failure!&highlight=PM45+springs

The long spring is the correct size. Six of the 7-round mags had the 6 and 5-round mag springs coming from the factory... totally inadequate after the set.

http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11848&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1414853310

As I said, this is what happened with MY pistol and your results may be different. :)

[wyntrout]

I just took the two LL-follower mags apart and the springs were correctly oriented, as I knew they would be.

Wynn :)

[Bills1873]

Some of those springs are a mess! You must shoot the crap out of that gun! I did notice on my CM45 mag springs that the 5 and 6 round springs were the same size when I disassembled them. They both shoot ok, though. Approx 600 rounds divided between the 2 mags. By the way, I wasn't trying to berate your obvious knowledge of these little guns, just thinking aloud in front of a keyboard. I follow all you knowledgeable guys on here with interest, and learn every day from you all.

[wyntrout]

I don't really shoot it that much. I don't shoot often enough and part of the reason is that I have too many choices for carry and shooting. That will have to change a bit as there are other toys I want... including a Glock 43 and upgrades for Wifey. I'm going to have to figure out what I really "need" and cull a few to pay for some new acquisitions.

Wifey quit working a few years a go and that cut back MY spending money quite a bit! :D

Guns and shooting are an expensive hobby! And I keep buying ammo and gun stuff, like my SIRT pistol which cost more than some pistols, but it's cheaper for "shooting" and practicing around the house.

Wynn :)

[Bills1873]

Wife also quit due to heath reasons, add in medical bills and it keeps me on a short leash. I savor all trips to the land where we shoot, and stretch out the sessions so I don't blow through too much ammo. Please keep us in the know on your findings.

[Alfonse]

Wyn,

I sent you a pm to see what I can do to get those working or make it right. Thanks!

[Bobshouse]

I purchased two followers from Alfonse. One is still new awaiting arrival of my 2nd mag. The other looks similar to yours and has also stopped locking the slide back after about 100 rounds of 45 ball. I'm going to keep it for emergency backup if I happen to break my original follower. I guess those actuators are sharp!

[Bawanna]

Give Al some time Bob, nobody wants these followers and other parts to work perfectly more than AL. He'll get to the bottom of it and get them running right.

Never met the man, hope to maybe next month but I sense much integrity and honesty.

Just a few bugs to work out, that's all. I haven't been out to shoot in way too long. I have a couple prototype 45 followers I intend to try but hasn't happened yet.

[Bobshouse]

No complaints here, I've purchased several other items from Al, these are very high quality followers. Only problem is steel is harder than aluminum...lol.

[Bills1873]

I'll have to apologize, as I was mistaken. In previous post, I stated cm45 lakeline follower was 100%. The mag with it will not lock open last round or manually with empty mag. It appears it's not quite as wide where the pin is in the plastic follower. I had the mags mixed up. Pm 9 is ok.

[KosherNRA]

I went out today with my PM45 and shot 135 rounds. 1 mag with LL, one stock. The LL NEVER locked back on last round. Incredibly disappointing.

[wyntrout]

I didn't need the followers since my original ones were fine, but wanted to try them and I did experience no slide lock back at any time with the .45 followers.

I know that Alfonse wants to see what the problem is, but I haven't felt like fooling with them, yet. I've had a lot going on with medical and dental, besides my usual work around the house... and I'm a procrastinator.

I feel bad that I haven't tried taking picturews with the slide removed, etc., to see what's going on.

Wynn

[Alfonse]

Alright, there are some hints here on what the issues with the .45 followers might be. I will do some measuring and analyzing tomorrow and see if I can get it solved. Thanks for the input and I will get it taken care of. BTW, they are off the market until this is solved.

[wyntrout]

I took some pictures of two each of my mags with the Lakeline followers and the stock ones. Pictures taken as follower reaches the slide lock actuator and then another after the mag is locked in place. The stock ones work and the LL don't.

First three of LL, then two stock ones.

[wyntrout]

The second pair... again first photo as follower reaches actuator and then after lock in place for each of this pair.

The slide lock pin is pushed in numerous times to be sure it's seated with each mag.

The rub marks on the followers were covered up with a Sharpie so I could tell if there was any additional marks being made.

In my testing, the .40 followers were chewed up pretty well and required filing to even them up.

The 9's were a little better... not quite so beaten up.

Wynn

[Alfonse]

Thanks, the photos help a bunch.
Al

[Alfonse]

So, the .45s are unique in the way they interface with the slide lock. That is probably due to the relatively large bullets and limited space. The engagement between the follower and the slide stop is minuscule compared to the other Kahrs. That is why the pin that engages it is machined and projects a bit past the plastic follower.

Anything can be addressed technically. The solution is to get steel (or stainless steel) in there that is shaped in a way to be sure to engage the slide stop and tough enough to stand up to the small area of engagement. Greg had the great suggestion of using a screw in the follower where it engages the slide stop. Because of the shape required to engage the slide stop, a regular, round head doesn't really work. So, it would take a custom pin or screw that has to be indexed into a certain orientation for even that to work.

The business issue is that any solution, like making the whole part from stainless, adds to the cost significantly. The other issue is the .45 parts don't sell well. Over the same time frame, I sell almost 40 9mm followers for each .45. If the price goes up, even fewer .45s will sell.

So, the business solution is to just obsolete the part, happily offering refunds to anyone who wants one, and putting the current inventory in the recycle bin. That said, I would like to hear opinions.

[Bills1873]

I ordered only one some time ago, just to try it out. Personally, I'll not seek a refund, as I would rather play with it and see if I can make it work. It's great for a backup magazine, as the rounds stay in position better. Thanks for the offer, Al, and keep up the good work!
PS: might offer for sale at reduced price.

[wyntrout]

That's what I would suggest Alfonse... a warning upfront, but sell at a reduced price to liquidate that stock.

Wynn

[Alfonse]

Greg's suggestion of using a screw would work for those wanting to futz with it at home. I could setup a Harbor Freight drill press to do a few pretty easily. Drill, tap and countersink. For a home brew, I would use a flathead screw that protrudes a bit from side and front of the follower, loctite it in place and file it to match the factory profile. There would be some time in it, but I've spent Saturday afternoons in worse ways. A M2.5 x .45 flathead screw would probably be about right.

I can put them back on, with the description that they don't lock the slide back on the last round, and sell them for something like $10 apiece. Still offer the refund, or partial if you like.

[Bills1873]

I'm in for some!

[Bills1873]

http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13762&stc=1Seems I fixed the 45 follower by drilling a 3/32 hole at a slight angle and locktighting in a pin made from a welding rod. Dremeled it down to where it slides in the mag. Sticks out about .30 inch. Cycling by hand works every time. Won't be able to fire test it for a few weeks. Kinda resembles stock follower pin, but left it round. Altered all 5 of the Lakeline followers I had.

[Alfonse]

That should do it.

[ROB94045]

I'm not sure if the followers on mine are a revised design or not but these appear to have a metal reinforcement embedded in them. I've been unable to tell from photos others have posted, if this is the original design or not.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180915/e74d2987d5d74cbed9a1ce7b24a91555.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180915/b22807cf829a85a090d0f689b653167a.jpg

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[gb6491]

I'm not sure if the followers on mine are a revised design or not but these appear to have a metal reinforcement embedded in them. I've been unable to tell from photos others have posted, if this is the original design or not.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180915/b22807cf829a85a090d0f689b653167a.jpg

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Looks like the old poly follower to me.
They are some photos of the revised followers members are reporting here: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?29809-new-kahr-mag-followers
Regards,
Greg

[ROB94045]

Thanks. I'll probably opt to replace them with the Lakeline aluminum versions.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk