P9 issues

[naa10104]

Hello,

Long, long story short ! If that is possible. I have a 14 year old P9 that has been gently used, app. 1500 rounds thru it. First ten years it was fine with an occasional malfunction, ie. FTF. Nothing concerning. Last 5 years numerous cycling issues. Contacted Kahr and bought new recoil spring ... no improvement. Sent gun back to Kahr, they polished feed ramp and installed new recoil spring, no improvement. Sent gun back to Kahr, they replaced entire slide, new barrel, recoil spring and tube, and aligned with slide, still problems. Sent back again and Kahr honed out area underside of slide near muzzle. This seemed to help a lot.

New issue, fail to re cock striker. App. every 50 rounds .. gun cycles fine ... ejects ... re chambers ... in battery, but trigger is slack, not cocked. Work slide eject live round .. re chamber new round ... fires fine. Gun is thoroughly cleaned and lubed per Kahr guidelines. Slide has been disassembled and cleaned. Can' figure out why this is happening. I am not contacting slide during firing, using good full ball ammo. not limp wristing. Any sugggestions ? Thanks

[berettabone]

Call me foolish, but I don't see any replacement of mag springs........................they've done everything else. New striker spring?

[Bawanna]

I doubt the mag springs would effect resetting the striker. Striker spring perhaps but those don't seem to wear out that I've ever heard about.

I have a Colt Woodsman that does the same thing. Fires once, ejects, feeds and chambers fine but striker don't reset. Eject by hand and all is good for one more round. Still haven't figured it out either.

Specifically mentions not limp wristing which was my first thought. I'd try another shooter just to confirm that. The other end of the recoil spring theory is the good solid grip.

We'll sort this out, others will be along.

[naa10104]

Call me foolish, but I don't see any replacement of mag springs........................they've done everything else. New striker spring?

The mags seem okay, but worth looking into. Striker spring could be a possibility since it is a fail to cock issue. Although I figured that when they replaced the slide that had all new internals. Only around 300 rounds on new slide. Really puzzled by this ... thanks.

[naa10104]

appreciate the advice ... I have not had anyone else shoot this gun other than the Kahr people when I send it back. I have been shooting for app. 40 years and am fairly well versed in guns etc. Don't think i am limp wristing it. I have a Glock 19 and Ruger LCP, never a problem with either, ever. Are the Kahr pistols more sensitive to this type of issue ? If so is there any way to compensate/correct it ? Different recoil spring etc. What puzzles me is how does the P9 cycle just fine and go into battery but not cock the trigger ? I was told that only app. 1/4" is required to reset/cock the trigger. Thanks again !

[gb6491]

appreciate the advice ... I have not had anyone else shoot this gun other than the Kahr people when I send it back. I have been shooting for app. 40 years and am fairly well versed in guns etc. Don't think i am limp wristing it. I have a Glock 19 and Ruger LCP, never a problem with either, ever. Are the Kahr pistols more sensitive to this type of issue ? If so is there any way to compensate/correct it ? Different recoil spring etc. What puzzles me is how does the P9 cycle just fine and go into battery but not cock the trigger ? I was told that only app. 1/4" is required to reset/cock the trigger. Thanks again !
Trigger bar/disconnector is not resetting.
First guesses: might be the trigger bar spring or something behind the side plate binding up the bar. The magazine could possibly interfere with either the spring or bar. Disconnector might be catching on the slide.
Regards,
Greg

[naa10104]

Thanks for the info .... I will check these areas for any issues.

[berettabone]

I don't know why you would think that I thought that mag springs would fix his striker problem? Thanks for the confidence:) I mentioned the mag springs for some of his other problems. The striker spring may not be something that normally causes problems, but stranger things have happened. Assembled properly? Yes the smaller Kahr's can be limp wristed, but the P9 I am not sure about. Seems it wouldn't have that issue.

[naa10104]

FYI, all the other cycling issues, FTF, FTE have been corrected ... the gun runs fine except for this fail to cock issue. The gun is assembled correctly. One of the earlier posts mentioned the trigger bar and spring which I understand ... what is the DISCONNECTOR that is mentioned ? Don't see that in any of the diagrams or parts lists. As soon as I can obtain the correct tool to remove the side plate in the frame I am going to inspect that for any issues, cleaning etc. Again appreciate the advice and remain open to any suggestions !

[Bawanna]

I don't know why you would think that I thought that mag springs would fix his striker problem? Thanks for the confidence:) I mentioned the mag springs for some of his other problems. The striker spring may not be something that normally causes problems, but stranger things have happened. Assembled properly? Yes the smaller Kahr's can be limp wristed, but the P9 I am not sure about. Seems it wouldn't have that issue.

Sorry dude, I understood per his last post that all the other issues were fixed and was only dealing with the striker reset.
I concur with Greg's diagnosis with the spring or possible obstruction.

[gb6491]

FYI, all the other cycling issues, FTF, FTE have been corrected ... the gun runs fine except for this fail to cock issue. The gun is assembled correctly. One of the earlier posts mentioned the trigger bar and spring which I understand ... what is the DISCONNECTOR that is mentioned ? Don't see that in any of the diagrams or parts lists. As soon as I can obtain the correct tool to remove the side plate in the frame I am going to inspect that for any issues, cleaning etc. Again appreciate the advice and remain open to any suggestions !
It's part of the trigger bar
http://i68.tinypic.com/rk6cf5.jpg
When the slide is forward, it should ride up in a "pocket" in the slide allowing the trigger bar to engage the cocking cam
http://i68.tinypic.com/ih0j0g.jpg
When the slide moves backward the the disconnector is pushed down, moving the trigger bar out of contact with the cocking cam
http://i68.tinypic.com/vwyhjt.jpg
(photos 1 &3 are by dorangolv, I just resized and marked them)

If the disconnector does not return to full height after the trigger is released and the slide has come foward, the trigger bar will not engage the cocking cam correctly and the pistol will not fire.

FWIW, some side plates have a ball stud. If your plate does not come off easily after removing the screw and lifting the rear portion (front edge is under the frame) then you'll probably need to slide a tool down between the plate and the frame to pop the ball stud out of it's hole.
http://i57.tinypic.com/2rzxgmh.jpg

Regards,
Greg

[jocko]

NICE WORK GREGG, EVEN OPL JOCKO CAN UNDERSTAND . Just sayin

[downtownv]

Greg nails it again with clear "Jocko understandable" pics and illustrations!

[RolandD]

FYI, all the other cycling issues, FTF, FTE have been corrected ... the gun runs fine except for this fail to cock issue. The gun is assembled correctly. One of the earlier posts mentioned the trigger bar and spring which I understand ... what is the DISCONNECTOR that is mentioned ? Don't see that in any of the diagrams or parts lists. As soon as I can obtain the correct tool to remove the side plate in the frame I am going to inspect that for any issues, cleaning etc. Again appreciate the advice and remain open to any suggestions !
Might have done it already, but you may need to clean out the striker channel with some breekleen.

[naa10104]

Might have done it already, but you may need to clean out the striker channel with some breekleen.

Already done ... thanks

[naa10104]

Thanks for the great photos I will take a look at these areas !

[yqtszhj]

Trigger bar/disconnector is not resetting.
First guesses: might be the trigger bar spring or something behind the side plate binding up the bar. The magazine could possibly interfere with either the spring or bar. Disconnector might be catching on the slide.
Regards,
Greg
As I read the original post that is what I thought. Greg nails it again with excellent illustrations.

[RonW]

You're probaly getting the best adviced right here but I'm just really curious..... what ammo are you using?

[naa10104]

You're probaly getting the best adviced right here but I'm just really curious..... what ammo are you using?

Hello,

Believe both 115 gn ball one ZVS and one Geco (?) Have shot this ammo in other guns with no issues

[naa10104]

Here are some photos after I opened the side up. Nothing obviously wrong...I will give it a good cleaning, any suggestions on what to lube behind the panel ? Thanks


IMG_1633.JPG
IMG_1634.JPGIMG_1633.JPG IMG_1634.JPG IMG_1635.JPG IMG_1636.JPG IMG_1637.JPG IMG_1638.JPG IMG_1639.JPG
IMG_1635.JPG
IMG_1636.JPG
IMG_1637.JPG
IMG_1638.JPG
IMG_1639.JPG

How do you post photos as attachments ? Thanks

[gb6491]

You have to have made 30 posts before you can use the attachment feature. In the meantime, you can upload your photos to an off site host (I use tinypic.com) and post them here using the code.
Alternatively, send me a private message and I'll give you an email address to send them to. I'll then upload them for you.

If you still have the side plate off: push the slide forward to it's even with the back of the frame and hold it there, now rotate the the cocking cam counterclockwise until the striker releases and the slide can be removed (the slide will probably want to shoot off the frame from the pressure you are applying, so have it pointed somewhere that it won't be damaged).

Regards,
Greg

[gb6491]

Here are the OP's (naa10104) photos:
http://i65.tinypic.com/2ewcnde.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/i3z8tk.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/2vnmolk.jpg
http://i68.tinypic.com/rsgajq.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/264mfr9.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/2eoctwy.jpg

[gb6491]

My guesses:
Unless this gouging/marking happened during disassembly, I'd say the trigger bar is rubbing excessively on the side plate:
http://i66.tinypic.com/vy1389.jpg

The trigger bar also appears to be rubbing some on the slide:
http://i64.tinypic.com/zx0592.jpg

...and unevenly on the trigger:
http://i67.tinypic.com/2it50ty.jpg

Possible quick fix:
Clean up the sideplate; removing as little material as possible, but making sure the trigger bar will move freely and still maintain it's alignment with the cocking cam.
Tweak the trigger bar so that it is not rubbing as badly on the slide, side plate, and trigger but still maintaining it's alignment with the cocking cam. That might involve some bending, twisting, etc. (maybe some material removal).
Polish the areas where the wear has occurred.
I'd also consider replacing the trigger bar spring.

As it's disassembled this far already:
I'd replace the trigger bar, springs, and side plate.

Regards,
Greg

BTW: the frame seems to have some wear that has left a ridge near the disconnector. If it were mine, I'd smooth/slope/break that ridge line:
http://i67.tinypic.com/2q9f1tz.jpg

[Tilos]

Seeing that the side plate in Greg's pic has been machined/relieved in the exact spot the OP's cover plate pic show rubbing, is a good indication this is a common problem area.
You can also see a machined surface on the frame pic, under the disconnector, with both machining probably done to qualify the surface variations due to plastic shrinkage.
jmo
:D

[naa10104]

Greg,

Thanks for all the help, really appreciate it !!!! I will let you know what happens. Take care.

steve

[TennSCN]

This looks to be on its way to a fix but just for kicks and giggles, maybe you should take a careful look at the bottom rear of the slide. That disconnector tab is actuated by a radiused slot at the right-side rear of the slide. It looks like something has shaved the upper part of the tab and that would have to be the slide. If the edges of the slide notch are similarly shaved, replacing the trigger bar may not bring back the love for very long... the edges of the tab and edges of the slot should be square (not shaved) to correctly engage.

It would be worth a look.
2¢

[naa10104]

Hello,

Kahr is going to send me a few parts .... once I get them in I will let you all know how it goes. Thanks again for all the help !

[naa10104]

Hello,

Anyone have a good part by part guide for reassembling the frame ? The sequence is what I need and any tips ... thanks

[gb6491]

Hello,

Anyone have a good part by part guide for reassembling the frame ? The sequence is what I need and any tips ... thanks
There are some reassembly tips in this post: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?4454-Kahr-Polymer-Frame-Disassembly-%28Tutorial%29 (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?4454-Kahr-Polymer-Frame-Disassembly-%28Tutorial%29)
More here: http://www.gun-tests.com/special_reports/handguns/Kahr-Pistol-Disassembly-10184-1.html (http://www.gun-tests.com/special_reports/handguns/Kahr-Pistol-Disassembly-10184-1.html)
Regards,
Greg

[naa10104]

Hi appreciate the info. Think I have given up on getting this pistol back together. Can't get the trigger properly connected to the trigger bar spring. One of those situations where I can get one but not the other. Not sure I am doing this in the right order. At any rate will cost me another $100 to go to a gunsmith. Any other info would be appreciated. Thanks

[Bawanna]

I'd certainly let Kahr know your situation. What was happening and what you did to try and cure it.

They most likely would check it out and put it back together properly and hopefully have it running a 100 percent.

I'm not sure there are enough kahrs around that most gunsmiths have much interaction with them. I of course could be wrong on that. Course to a good gunsmith it don't matter, they are just good at figuring stuff out, I think it's a gift.
I think Greg has the gift, I know I sure don't but sure wish I did.

[gb6491]

Hi appreciate the info. Think I have given up on getting this pistol back together. Can't get the trigger properly connected to the trigger bar spring. One of those situations where I can get one but not the other. Not sure I am doing this in the right order. At any rate will cost me another $100 to go to a gunsmith. Any other info would be appreciated. Thanks
Please post some photos (or send them to me) of where you are in the reassembly process and folks can probably help from there.
Alternately, here's a pretty good page I just found about installing the trigger back into the frame: http://commonbullets.com/wp/archives/1606 (http://commonbullets.com/wp/archives/1606)
Regards,
Greg

[naa10104]

Hello,
That is the page I used to get it back together. Was not fun, but it is done now. Should be going to range tomorrow to see if the fail to re cock is cured. Replaced trigger bar, trigger bar spring, and trigger spring. Smoothed out area behind trigger bar spring on frame near rear of gun. Also smoothed out the area on the back of the side cover that the trigger bar spring was rubbing on. Everything cleaned and lubed. See what happens tomorrow. Thanks again for all the input !!!

[naa10104]

Hello,

The saga continues ... went to range yesterday and now have fail to cock on every shot. After each shot trigger was slack, if I manually pushed the trigger forward app. 1/8" a click could be felt and the trigger was now set/cocked and the gun would fire. This happens 100% of the time. Obviously I have made the issue worse. At some point I will break it back down and look for any obvious binding of parts. Open to any suggestions. Also, is there any market on this site for used parts ? I am guessing that I can sell all the parts legally which are not serialized. I have a practically brand new barrel, slide with all internals, recoil spring and tube. All the frame internals, 3 mags and a couple very nice holsters. Thinking it might be time for me to pick up a new pistol and move on. Any opinion on the quality of current productions Kahr pistols ? Thanks again for all the advice !

[gb6491]

Can you duplicate the problem when dry firing?

[naa10104]

HI,

Yep, does it every time !

Steve

[gb6491]

I'd guess the click you are feeling is the trigger bar resetting.
Want to try some troubleshooting?
I'd pull the slide off, then pull the trigger to the rear and hold it there. The disconnector will be forward at this point
http://i66.tinypic.com/2ilh2kx.jpg
Push the disconnector down until it's even with the top of side plate and hold it there (cocking cam should reset when you do this). Note: The tool you use should be about the size of the screwdriver in the photo.
http://i66.tinypic.com/35lufrt.jpg
Release the trigger as you would when firing the gun. The disconnector should pop up behind the tool.
http://i65.tinypic.com/14o9476.jpg
The trigger should be reset at this point (pulling the trigger will make the cocking cam move).

If the trigger does reset:
I'd look at how the slide is interacting with the disconnector.

If the trigger doesn't reset:
I'd pull the side plate and reassemble with it off. Then dry fire it this way (you may need to lightly hold the trigger bar in place) and see if you can observe anything that might be causing the issue.

Regards,
Greg

[naa10104]

Hello,

Followed your instructions and I think I figured it out. The end of the trigger spring which rests against the front side of the frame forward of the trigger was not seated properly. It was resting to low in the frame ... once I pushed it higher up the frame where there was actually a mark from where it had sat since new, the reset problem went away. I guess by having it sit to low ... it was not applying enough pressure for the trigger to fully reset. Won't know until I get to the range which will probably be a couple more weeks. If this does not correct the problem I will be looking to get rid of the P9 and make a new purchase. If anyone is interested in the good parts please let me know, and once again thanks for your help. Your diagnostics were right on the mark !

[Bills1873]

Right on Greg! Kudos

[marshal kane]

Hello,

Followed your instructions and I think I figured it out. The end of the trigger spring which rests against the front side of the frame forward of the trigger was not seated properly. It was resting to low in the frame ... once I pushed it higher up the frame where there was actually a mark from where it had sat since new, . . .
As a general rule when disassembling/assembling ANYTHING it's important to note wear marks and to insure mating parts connect with those marks. Best wishes on your P9 working properly now. My P9, bought new in January 2015, has clocked 1900 rounds through it without so much as a hiccup after the initial break-in period.

[naa10104]

Hello,

Went to range today to test fire P9. First 85 rounds of two different ammo fired fine ... thought the problem was corrected. Then .... fired/ejected/chambered/failed to go into battery. Slide to rear about little over an 1/8", recoil rod protruding from front of slide about 1/4". Unable to clear or remove slide. Totally inoperable. When I got home was able to get gun apart, nothing obviously wrong. Suffice it to say I am done with this firearm and appreciate all the help.

This is for sale for parts etc if anyone is interested, also have mags and holster, would like to sell all of it. Any opinions as to the quality control and overall quality of the current Kahr pistol ? Mine was app. 15 years old. Take care.

steve

[gb6491]

Steve,
Don't give up on it just yet. The failure to return to battery issue you describe can often be ammo related.
This can happen because of the round's overall length or because of the bullet's shape.
As a quick test, remove the barrel and lightly drop a round into the chamber. The round should seat with the back of the case flush with or very slightly below the rear of the barrel hood: (image originally posted by John boy on SASS.net)
http://i58.tinypic.com/15d53ic.png
Regards,
Greg

[naa10104]

Greg,

Thanks for the info ... I understand what you are saying. The first 50 rounds were a Aguila nickel case. The second 50 where I had the issue were Wolf ammo which has the grayish/black steel cases which don't seem as smooth. Here is my concern, if this was the issue wouldn't the gun have worked afterwards ? Once I ejected the chambered fresh round which would not fire because the gun was out of battery ... the gun remained out of battery and I could not get the slide to go into battery and could not pull the trigger to release the slide. I was able to remove the slide stop, but was unable to get the gun apart until I got home. And I frankly don't know why I was able to get the gun apart. Also do you have an opinion on Kahr quality now as opposed to 15 years ago ? I really like the Kahr size but it seems that the quality is a hit or miss thing. I generally read about people either loving there Kahr firearms or hating them ... no in between. Thanks again.

Steve

[gb6491]

Greg,

Thanks for the info ... I understand what you are saying. The first 50 rounds were a Aguila nickel case. The second 50 where I had the issue were Wolf ammo which has the grayish/black steel cases which don't seem as smooth. Here is my concern, if this was the issue wouldn't the gun have worked afterwards ? Once I ejected the chambered fresh round which would not fire because the gun was out of battery ... the gun remained out of battery and I could not get the slide to go into battery and could not pull the trigger to release the slide. I was able to remove the slide stop, but was unable to get the gun apart until I got home. And I frankly don't know why I was able to get the gun apart. Also do you have an opinion on Kahr quality now as opposed to 15 years ago ? I really like the Kahr size but it seems that the quality is a hit or miss thing. I generally read about people either loving there Kahr firearms or hating them ... no in between. Thanks again.

Steve
Steve,
I misunderstood your previous post and thought you were unable to clear a live round. When the slide is out of battery the trigger is disconnected. When the stop is out, you have to push and hold the slide forward to manipulate the trigger. I'd guess you did this when you got it to come apart.
When you had the issue, was the gun froze up or did you have some slide movement when it wouldn't return to battery? If you had movement, were you able to push it into battery, but it wouldn't stay there?

I haven't bought a new Kahr in about 3 years, so any opinion I have on current production would be based on the few new ones I've handled and what I've seen on forums (especially this one). So with that in mind, current pistols I've handled seem to be little to no different from my older Kahrs. From reading on various forums: all metal Kahrs, both current and past, have the best reputation. Generally, I'd say the current poly guns are just as good, if not better, than their older brethren You will find some cosmetic changes have been made on certain models (ditto for mechanical changes). I do think the current CW45 is probably better than the older ones, the same for the current P/CW380.

Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

I agree. It seems some specific calibers had issues. I remember the 380 in the past was very problematic. Kahr finally discovered the issue and addressed it and for the most part the new 380's are generally good with a few exceptions.

The CW 45 was perhaps the same but didn't seem to have issues as consistently as the 380. But more than others.

I think they have addressed those as well, especially the short rail issue.

I've never used any of the ammo you mentioned. I'd love to try that with some name brand Winchester, Remington, PMC, brass case stuff and see how it acts.

I know your fed up and frustrated but I don't think that gun is ready for parts status. But you gotta run what your confident with and right now this isn't it.

[naa10104]

Thanks all .... concerning the malfunction. Once the gun chambered the new round and would not fire I was able to move the slide to the rear as normal and eject the live round. At that point the gun would not go into battery even if I pushed on the rear of the slide.(slide stop still in at this point.) If I recall correctly I could not pull the trigger either. Once home I was able to disassemble the gun and reassemble as normal. At this point the gun seems to function properly as far as working the slide, pulling the trigger etc. I could see this being an ammo issue with the cheaper, steel ammo. My concern is that the gun would not into battery after I ejected the live round. Makes me think there is another issue here. Thanks

[naa10104]

Hello,

Gave the P9 a complete cleaning and lubed per instructions. Took it to the range today and put 100 rounds of quality full ball range ammo thru it with 0 malfunctions. So, it was the Wolf ammo that caused the last malfunction. So the gun is now owned by a good friend who was in the market for a used P9. I don't need it as I have a new CW9 which functioned perfectly today. 0 malfunctions during 200 round break in. Thanks for all the advice and input.

[Bills1873]

Cool as heck! Saved from the scrap heap.

[naa10104]

FYI ... the ammo that I think caused the issue is WPA with the picture of the wolf's head.

[RonW]

Aguila & wolf is not what I consider to be quality ammo, even if I hated my guns I still woundly use those two brands. .... I think you sold your pistol for the wrong reasons...

[naa10104]

Hello,

I have shot Aguila extensively and never had an issue. Good cases and fairly clean burning powder ... never had a malfunction with it in any of my 9mm's. The WPA is another story, will not buy again. THanks