Forum ownership

[JohnR]

So...

Has Kahr Talk been purchased by VerticalScope yet?

[Kristo]

Good question... seems like everyone else has.

[CJB]

VerticalScope is commercial. And its fully owned by Torstar which is the most liberal Corporation in Canada and also owns the Toronto Star.

On another forum there were questions regarding why Torstar would want to own a firearms-related website. The response was a fluff canned one.

VerticalScope will change a site into an ad spewing, datametric gathering machine quicker than you can imagine. Beware the billion-dollar company that wants to buy some small website. Torstar uses Verticalscope as its data metric spy organization.

[SlowBurn]

They bought several gun forums all at once from a single prior owner. I assume they did so because they expect profit. They have an anti-popup ad policy and generally seem interested in keeping the forum members they have happy and attracting new ones. I doubt they want to drive people away. I'm sure they're numbers driven, want to maximize views and participation to maximize ad revenue (see the banners on top? companies pay for those.) Data collection is part of the game, but really they already know everything they need to know about us as consumers and what types of interests we have. Don't need to do much guessing, data mining or analysis. My guess is that's what they like about special interest forums.

The forum I visit, they announced up front, asked for suggestions to improve the forum, and responded to replies, even the rude and paranoid ones. I think they would have done that here too if they had acquired it. Probably make few changes except some slight improvements (like button?)

[JohnR]

"We're bean counters, and we're here to help."

For us Floridians (and anyone else) who don't want to be part of that, there's www.FloridaSheepdogs.com :biggrin1:

[SlowBurn]

"We're bean counters, and we're here to help."

For us Floridians (and anyone else) who don't want to be part of that, there's www.FloridaSheepdogs.com :biggrin1:

Thanks. I'm not concerned about ownership, but frankly don't find the FCC forum that useful so be nice to try something else. BTW any plans to add Tapatalk capability?

[WMD]

Not that I am nescessarily "in the know" but pretty sure Kahrtalk is not owned by VerticalScope. I think it is an independant forum. I have been lurking on this forum since it started although, I do not really post too much.

[JohnR]

Personally I despise Tapatalk so no. But when you go on your iPhone it has a very good mobile interface, much better than Tapatalk.

On a non-gun forum, someone wrote this:


I've been a member of a farming board, owned by VerticalScope, for 5 or 6 years. The board has a great membership, folks from all over the world, but the nonstop, and increasing, advertising is just too annoying. I don't visit there much any more.

The board also has a weird nanny filter. It blocks "hell" and "damn" but none of George Carlin's Seven Dirty Words. Shrug.

[Bawanna]

I'd go along with that too. I never heard of VerticalScope myself but I'm sure the boss man would have said something by now.

WMD, told you a 1000 times to quit the gosh durn lurking and stop in an play now and then.
We might be able to teach you some stuff about Kahrs and guns and stuff. Well maybe not me but we got some others here that are right smart. They could teach ya, ya know?

Me I'll stick to politics........................yeah right.:faint2:

[WMD]

I'd go along with that too. I never heard of VerticalScope myself but I'm sure the boss man would have said something by now.

WMD, told you a 1000 times to quit the gosh durn lurking and stop in an play now and then.
We might be able to teach you some stuff about Kahrs and guns and stuff. Well maybe not me but we got some others here that are right smart. They could teach ya, ya know?

Me I'll stick to politics........................yeah right.:faint2:

Ha ha Yeah, there are plenty of people here more smarter than me! lol If you do not believe me, just ask my wife! (please dont tell her I said that!) ;-)

[OldFatGuy]

NGF was bought, and "they" said there will be minimal changes. "Minimal". We can pretty much say anything on that forum, but I expect that will be changing soon....

[Bawanna]

Ha ha Yeah, there are plenty of people here more smarter than me! lol If you do not believe me, just ask my wife! (please dont tell her I said that!) ;-)

Hmmm, this sounds like a financial opportunity knocking at my door...........................I could use one lately.

[Armybrat]

I don't like Tapatalk, but use Geezergab instead.

[SlowBurn]

what do you guys have against tapatalk?

[Bobshouse]

what do you guys have against tapatalk?

Really difficult to use when driving.

[JohnR]

Every tapatalk update seemed to make it harder and harder to use, so I gave up.

[deadeye]

I too prefer geezergab. If anything has more than 2 buttons on it I get confused.

[CJB]

I had a chance to briefly exchange some Q & A with VerticalScope.

I was not impressed. They seem intent on telling half truths. For instance, it was stated that Torstar "invested in" VerticalScope. That of course is a huge F'n understatement, as Torstar owns well over 55 percent of VerticalScope. Could be as much as 75 percent at the present. Torstar lists VerticalScope as one of its three business divisions. They only have three divisions, and VerticalScope is one of those. So, it was just an investment? No. It was an acquisition!

Then they said they only run on the ad revenue of the sites they own. Total BS. They gather and sell meta data.

Well, they own something over 600 sites, and Torstar paid over 200million for 52 percent in their initial bid to purchase a few years ago. That puts VerticalScope in the half billion dollar league - not chump change! Web revenue from ads does not value each website at over $650,000 each, on average. Its the data. Its the data. And its always the data.

Of course VerticalScope said, we can't do that, its against the law in Canada! Oh, really? So. Facebook is banned in Canada? Because, that is EXACTLY what Facebook, and Google, and Yahoo, and everyone does... Canada or not. Its not individualized data, but it "meta data". All the times, events, web places, pictures, locations, references, all the information except the user's name, and frankly, they "have" the user names now, just can't sell them.

So... VerticalScope has struck out in my estimation. They're a liberal money grubbin' outlet. KahrTalk is much better than them.

[JohnR]

Dang, good work, CJB. My hunch is corroborated. There is no Fn way any forum is worth $650k from ad revenue. One concern about the data, all those gun owners. They have email addresses for us and it's probably easy enough to cross reference them with google, etc. for our real names and street addresses. And we tend to inventory our arsenals online. That tragic boat accident I had this morning might be a blessing in disguise.

[Armybrat]

VerticalScope has bought the Colt Forum:

http://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt-forum-announcements-news/114374-changes-forum-management.html

[Bob T]

Also the Walther forum:
http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/walther-forum-announcements/47855-changes-forum-management.html

[CJB]

I have pulled my information, and deactivated my enrollment in the places I know VerticalScope to own.

I hope it never happens here. I don't mind related ads. Key is related.

Soon, there's unrelated ads. Then, totally off the wall ads. Then, the cookie information from Amazon and eBay starts to give them data to bombard you with even more ads. So, maybe you looked for a ball bearing, for your truck's serpentine idler on Amazon (they got 'em!) and you now get hammered with that on your firearms website. And the lamps, because you're ol' lady was looking at 'em. And flea collars. And bug spray for your banana tree. And a toys for you're nephew, who's birthday was two month's ago - but they don't know that, yet.

I run AdFree by BigTinCan (google it, its banned from the PlayStore) on Android, and it works just fine.
On Windows, whatever the plug in for Mozilla is.
Both do fine.

[OldFatGuy]

I'm worried about our freedom of speech. If they are Canadian, and they are liberal, then I expect a lot of what we talk about on these forums will be banned. Waiting for the shoe to drop on NGF, a bunch of us old crotchety old white guys there that speak our minds.

[Bawanna]

I don't see it happening here. Our honorable admin isn't much into pop ups or advertising and isn't doing the forum to get rich.

[Bobshouse]

Looks like they got our sister forum.

[JohnR]

I didn't know there was another Kahr forum!

[JohnR]

As for mass ownership, 6 corporations own 90% of the news media. http://www.businessinsider.com/these-6-corporations-control-90-of-the-media-in-america-2012-6

Nothing good has come of that.

[JohnR]

I just went to their S&W forum, logged on. Nine ads on every page, one at the top and eight down the left side. One Join NRA ad, a bunch of clickbait for random garbage.

[deadeye]

It is such a shame that things change the way they do. This has been the best forum on the internet. Not just for guns as there are some great folks here. You don't find these things anywhere else. But things do change. I have enjoyed quite a few TV shows until they destroy them going libtard until they are impossible to watch. Let's hope it doesn't happen here. But a lesson I learned long ago - enjoy what you have while you still have it. Hope it doesn't happen here.
RIP Muggsy.

[johnh]

Not going to happen. I am not receptive to advertising driven buyouts. I have seen that destroy other forums I was involved in. If they bought the other Kahr forum best of luck with that. It definitely won't hurt us. :biggrin1:

[Bobshouse]

Thanks for putting those concerns to rest.

[Bawanna]

Not going to happen. I am not receptive to advertising driven buyouts. I have seen that destroy other forums I was involved in. If they bought the other Kahr forum best of luck with that. It definitely won't hurt us. :biggrin1:

Yup the poser Kahr forum weren't much to speak of I never figured.

I guess the only plus to selling was if you got big bucks for it, you might share with your best bud bawanna.

I could use a little capital infusion. I think that's big banker talk for I'm broke. Nothing new just the same.

Truth be told I wouldn't take the loot anyhow.....................well maybe not anyhow..............guess it wouldn't be no big trick to all leave and just start a new one???

[JohnR]

I just peeked at it, that other Kahr place is about 1/3 the size of the real Kahr forum. I wonder why they would choose that one?

[OldFatGuy]

Because it was easy, probably. There is a conversation going on with an admin for VerticleScope. Here is some of the conversation:

http://www.nationalgunforum.com/images/ngf/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by RaySendero http://www.nationalgunforum.com/images/ngf/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.nationalgunforum.com/announcements/58241-changes-forum-management-post502445.html#post502445)
Philip, Will verticalscope.com place tracking cookies on my computer?



The cookies that will go on your computer will amount to the following as they always have, keeping you logged in is maintained by a cookie, tracking what threads are still new to you is a cookie, what little ads there are on the site presently may come with their own cookies as it's typically a metric for sponsors to know their ad is firing to x number of people. I say may on that one because I don't know if that particular cookie is active here.


http://www.nationalgunforum.com/images/ngf/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by chuckusaret http://www.nationalgunforum.com/images/ngf/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.nationalgunforum.com/announcements/58241-changes-forum-management-post502474.html#post502474)
Philip, You failed to inform the members that the Toronto Star newspaper owns 56% of the company and they are very much anti gun. You also failed to inform the members that the company has recently bought the following and attempting to buy more:
defensivecarry
airsoftsniper
AK Forum
nationalgunforum
theakforum
sniperforums
marlinowners
68forums
masscops
xdtalk
waltherforums
prepperforums
austinbassfishing
newjerseyhunter
polarisfiles
trapshooters
taurusarmed
coltforum
fnforum
Florida Concealed Carry forum
Sig Talk
M&P Forum
M-14 Firing Line
H&K Pro
S&W Forum

My question is; Why would a anti gun organization purchase pro-gun web sites. Oh, when do paid memberships kick in?






TorStar didn't buy the site, we did. Verticalscope is still run and managed but it's own CEO and respective hierarchy of teams. TorStar's ownership is that of an investor, a silent partner, so long as they get a return on said investment they leave us to our own devices. Paid memberships won't kick in unless you guys ask for one, and in that presently unlikely event we only run pay for perk memberships, not pay to play. :)

Kyle


Originally Posted by admin http://www.nationalgunforum.com/images/ngf/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.nationalgunforum.com/announcements/58241-changes-forum-management-5.html#post502837)
The cookies that will go on your computer will amount to the following as they always have, keeping you logged in is maintained by a cookie, tracking what threads are still new to you is a cookie, what little ads there are on the site presently may come with their own cookies as it's typically a metric for sponsors to know their ad is firing to x number of people. I say may on that one because I don't know if that particular cookie is active here.

.....

TorStar didn't buy the site, we did. Verticalscope is still run and managed but it's own CEO and respective hierarchy of teams. TorStar's ownership is that of an investor, a silent partner, so long as they get a return on said investment they leave us to our own devices. Paid memberships won't kick in unless you guys ask for one, and in that presently unlikely event we only run pay for perk memberships, not pay to play. :)

Kyle





Kyle, Thanks for replying to my question regarding cookies and about the anti-gun silent partner.

Are there any anti-gun people in management positions of Verticalscope?

Originally Posted by RaySendero http://www.nationalgunforum.com/images/ngf/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.nationalgunforum.com/announcements/58241-changes-forum-management-5.html#post502872)
Kyle, Thanks for replying to my question regarding cookies and about the anti-gun silent partner.

Are there any anti-gun people in management positions of Verticalscope?



No, we have several licensed people in the office including our CTO, some even keep their range bests pinned to their desks.

Kyle

[JohnR]

"Silent partner," eh. How long will they remain "silent"? That's like if the Muslim Brotherhood invested in Jewish forums as a silent partner, and promised nothing would happen. The fokking fox owns the henhouse.

[CJB]

from OldFatGuy:

Will verticalscope.com place tracking cookies on my computer?

TorStar didn't buy the site, we did. Verticalscope is still run and managed but it's own CEO and respective hierarchy of teams. TorStar's ownership is that of an investor, a silent partner,

Regarding the cookies, that was the wrong question to ask. The question specifically asks if Vertical Scope would place cookies. Their answer is equally misleading, regarding the "normalcy" of cookies having to do with the forum itself. What is missing, are the cookies, and inter-related data tied to tho cookies - PLACED BY ADVERTISERS. You don't even have to click on the ad. Its there, it loads, its part of your stuff, until you remove it, or have it removed via 3rd party software.

Regarding TorStar being "an investor", well this is totally misleading as well. The initial purchase was greater than 50 percent. In any investors jargon, TORSTAR OWNS VERTICALSCOPE. TorStar lists VerticalScope as one of its three divisions, not one of its three "companies". The difference is worth noting. For instance, NewsCorp lists FoxNews as a company it owns, not an operational division. NewsCorp is headed by Rupert, and FoxNews by Roger. Does Roger "report to" Rupert? Probably not in the strict sense, since Fox is a wholly owned, but separate company. NewsCorp also owns New York Post and Wall Street Journal, and in the UK, the Sun. You do see a LOT of Sun and NYPost news pieces on Fox. Hey and why not, they're all conservative. In the case of TorStar, they list VerticalScope as a "division", part of the same company, like Chevy, Olds, Cadillac, and GMC are "divisions" of General Motors. You could buy GM stock, but not Chevy stock. You can buy NewsCorp stock, and Fox stock, but not VerticalScope stock, as you'd have to be buying TorStar stock. See the difference?

So, they are misleading. Reason enough to run.

[Bobshouse]

A guy on another forum said it first. "Yes, you will be able to keep your same doctor..."

[johnh]

Ultimately if a vendor is trying to run diverse gun forums under a single for-profit enterprise and is anti-gun, what motivation would they have to respect any of the member's interests? There is no way that combination can be good. Wow. I have to wonder if the motivation to buy them is something other than making money? Interesting information to say the least.

[OldFatGuy]

I vote data mining. If hillary wins, they will sell her a list of who has what.

[Bobshouse]

I vote data mining. If hillary wins, they will sell her a list of who has what.

I don't have anything! I thought this place was a german site about cars.

[JohnR]

All my German cars sank in a lake in a tragic ferry boat accident :(

[SlowBurn]

I just peeked at it, that other Kahr place is about 1/3 the size of the real Kahr forum. I wonder why they would choose that one?
Maybe because it was for sale?

[JohnR]

Maybe because it was for sale?
For sale, cheap; you mean. :cool: And they thought they could pump it up to have more cash flow than KT would.

[Bobshouse]

It's a pretty good board with a lot of good people, and I'm pretty sure most of them are members here also. Lot of work in running a place like this. I've tried hosting a talk group and gave it up, didn't have the time to put into operating the board.

[SlowBurn]

They also bought Ruger Pistol Forum aka Elsie P. Don't know enough to guess the whys of it all.

My HOPE is these boards are worth running for the owners by some measure. I don't really know who owns this forum, but I always assumed Kahr Arms was involved and supported it in some way while keep pretty hands off, and that the exposure to their products made it worthwhile. I could be wrong.

[CJB]

[QUOTE=JohnR;369197]For sale, cheap; you mean. :cool: And they thought they could pump it up to have more cash flow than KT would.[/QUOote]

Pretty sure that most of the forums were not "for sale" but got an offer they couldn't refuse, which worries me about Kahr Talk.

If Bill Ruger was alive, the first thing he'd do is sue the pants of anybody using HIS logo (on their forum) for profit. I do imagine, that most companies would "let slide" the use of intellectual property for non-commercial purposes - ie., social gathering on the web. As soon as its a money machine... all bets off.

[SlowBurn]

According to their websites both the Elsie Pea forum and the Kahr Forum (the other one) belong to Forum Foundry, Inc. Vertical Scope probably acquired all Forum Foundry gun forums in one transaction, and didn't update those pages yet. So that would explain why they acquired the other Kahr forum and not this one.