trigger pull question

[Mr. Zero]

I have owned a PM9 for several years and its been great. I now have a P45 that I have been shooting lately and it has also been fantastic. I was shooting both the other day and noticed that the PM9 has a much heavier trigger pull than the P45. Could I have non-elite trigger components in my PM9? And if so, how would I tell? If not, what would account for the difference?

I have no scale but it is substantial.

Any Ideas?

Z.

[jfrey]

I'm sure Jocko can explain this fully, but I noticed when shooting my sister-in-law's P9 the trigger felt better and shorter than my CW9. Both guns are stock. I also have a lot more rounds through my gun than she does. The more you shoot Kahrs, the better they are supposed to polish themselves.

[kahrbrian]

I've picked up several kahrs now, and some FEEL NOTICEABLY different. Lighter, shorter, etc. Picked up a LNIB PM 45 the other day and it was a DREAM trigger! Didn't know there were SO many variations in Kahr triggers!

[Bawanna]

I don't think there are any variations in Kahr triggers.

I have heard numerous times how the PM45's seem to feel shorter smoother and all around better. I got no hard data to explain why this is. I know mine feels better than the 2 PM9's that I've side by side compared. Only by my trigger feel, no scale or anything scientific.

I do think they get better and better as time goes by but they are all the same.

I agree that Jocko no doubt has some more qualified answers to this issue.

[ripley16]

There are two trigger length pulls, but all trigger weights are listed as the same by Kahr and specifically "Approx. 7 lbs.". There is undoubtedly some small variance fron model to model.

See specs here;

http://www.kahr.com/DL/KahrSpecChart.pdf

[Bawanna]

I don't see anything regarding trigger lengths or weights on the attachment but there are only 1/2" and 3/8" and all the newer models have 3/8". I think the only 1/2" were very early and the NY's.
I'm also told you'd be very hard pressed to feel the difference in a side by side comparison all things being equal.
The 7# number sounds about right but as you say, I'm sure there's lots of variance in there and they no doubt bet better with use. If not lighter at least smother than they already are.

[RogerP9fan]

I think I read on The Firing Line forum that all Kahr pistol trigger pulls are 3/8'' except for the K series which is 1/2'' (unless you get the Elite model which is 3/8'' pull)
My question: What about the T series? Nobody mentioned anything about them...Do they fall into the "all Kahr pistols" group or is their trigger pull like the K series because they're all steel too.... Now, I'm trying to justify buying the T9....anybody know it's trigger pull for sure? As I now read through each posting, Bawanna may have already answered my question. Mabe I should read all postings before asking a question. BTW, the TFL posting was from back in 2003 and as Bawanna says above, all newer Kahrs have the 3/8'' pull. COOLNESS!!! Now when I go to range my muscle memory will be identical for both the P9 and the T9 !!!! Things like this make me happy!

[Mudinyeri]

The triggers on my CW40 and PM9 seem to be different. The PM9 seems to require less pressure than the CW40 even though I put a 5# spring in the CW. I bought three of the 5# springs from Wolff when I bought them and was planning to put one in the PM, but I'm not sure I want to mess with it. The trigger on my PM is really nice!

[Mr. Zero]

[QUOTE=I do think they get better and better as time goes by but they are all the same.[/QUOTE]

The funny part is I have a couple thousand rounds though my PM9, and not 200 through the P45.

[jocko]

I think I read on The Firing Line forum that all Kahr pistol trigger pulls are 3/8'' except for the K series which is 1/2'' (unless you get the Elite model which is 3/8'' pull)
My question: What about the T series? Nobody mentioned anything about them...Do they fall into the "all Kahr pistols" group or is their trigger pull like the K series because they're all steel too.... Now, I'm trying to justify buying the T9....anybody know it's trigger pull for sure? As I now read through each posting, Bawanna may have already answered my question. Mabe I should read all postings before asking a question. BTW, the TFL posting was from back in 2003 and as Bawanna says above, all newer Kahrs have the 3/8'' pull. COOLNESS!!! Now when I go to range my muscle memory will be identical for both the P9 and the T9 !!!! Things like this make me happy!

ONLY the K9 has the 1/2" trigger pull. EVERY OTHER KAHR HAS THE ELITE TRIGGER IN IT which is 3/8" pull, that being the cw series , also. Kahr triggers are very very smooth and willget some better but notmuch, just kinda hard to smooth what is already smooth. Why does maybe a T series feel different than a cw or a P series. Hard question to answer but could be the over all size of the gun makes things seem to work easier. The 5# wolffs striker spring, I hav ehadin my PM9 for over 3 years and IMO it is super. no change in pull length, just pressure change. It is not a hairy trigger at all, due rto again no pull length change. Your kahr might be smooth enough that you think you won't feel the difference in a 5# striker spirg, BUT YOU WILL.

[ripley16]

The T9 has the same trigger every other Kahr has, (except the standard K9).

[Tilos]

I took a look at ALL 9mm models to see which guns had a different trigger bar part number and the reason for it.
I never finished and really lost interest is tinkering for any improvement.

The average gun owners mechanical abilities vary greatly and I don't expect any Mfg'er to encourage "tinkering", via parts swopping, for marginal improvement, at the risk of damaging the gun.

With product liability what it is, I would not expect Kahr to offer parts kits to improve anything to be installed by the gun owner.

That being said, it could be done at some expense, with buying different parts and experimenting.
As a techy type I never see any hard data in these trigger pull threads, just feely stuff, no measurements of any kind.
If some here own guns that "feel" different, why not do some pull gage measurements, travel measurements.

Just sayin'
Tilos

[jocko]

I took a look at ALL 9mm models to see which guns had a different trigger bar part number and the reason for it.
I never finished and really lost interest is tinkering for any improvement.

The average gun owners mechanical abilities vary greatly and I don't expect any Mfg'er to encourage "tinkering", via parts swopping, for marginal improvement, at the risk of damaging the gun.

With product liability what it is, I would not expect Kahr to offer parts kits to improve anything to be installed by the gun owner.

That being said, it could be done at some expense, with buying different parts and experimenting.
As a techy type I never see any hard data in these trigger pull threads, just feely stuff, no measurements of any kind.
If some here own guns that "feel" different, why not do some pull gage measurements, travel measurements.

Just sayin'
Tilos

nothing is impossable to remodify, why reinvent the wheel though. If you want a semi with a shorter trigger system, best look towards other gun makers, like glock, Smith. I just don't want a short trigger system such as on glocks etc, for my pocket PM9. They aren't match guns, was never designed for that. I have yet to read of anyone really modifying a kahr trigger system...

[RogerP9fan]

Once again, jocko comes by and clarifies things very nicely and sets us straight.

[kahrseye]

I can only speak for my 2 guns. The PM45 definitely has a shorter or faster trigger pull. When the first shot goes off it's like a surprise. Like wow, I can't believe it shot that quickly. The PM9 is longer, still smooth but longer for sure.

[4T5Guy]

For what it is worth, just "pulled" my Kahrs. PM45, @5 1/2 lbs, PM9 #1, @6 lbs, PM9 #2, @6 1/2 lbs, P380, @5 1/2 lbs. I haven't checked them for a little while, but the .45 has always been smoother and lighter than the 9mm's. I really like them all, but I really love the PM45.

[Tilos]

Clarify...yes
So why do we get continuous "I shot my 2nd cousin's P/K/T and the trigger feels better than my P/K/T...how come" threads with no hard data.
What are they looking to learn/varify?

I watched a thread about ammo XX being too long and not feeding and ammo YY being shorter OAL go on for 3 pages and no one posted the OAL of ANY ammo they were using and it was probably within arms reach of there key boards.
No measurements for 3 pages; maybe I'm too detail oriented for KahrTalk and look for info that is rarely going to be there.



I'll ask my wife if she pee'd in my cereal this morning.
Just sayin'
Tilos

[kahrbrian]

Seems like the PM45s DO have a shorter lighter trigger - JUST like I experienced in the store the other day!

[4T5Guy]

Jeez, I thought I was tense.

[kahrseye]

I took a look at ALL 9mm models to see which guns had a different trigger bar part number and the reason for it.
I never finished and really lost interest is tinkering for any improvement.

The average gun owners mechanical abilities vary greatly and I don't expect any Mfg'er to encourage "tinkering", via parts swopping, for marginal improvement, at the risk of damaging the gun.

With product liability what it is, I would not expect Kahr to offer parts kits to improve anything to be installed by the gun owner.

That being said, it could be done at some expense, with buying different parts and experimenting.
As a techy type I never see any hard data in these trigger pull threads, just feely stuff, no measurements of any kind.
If some here own guns that "feel" different, why not do some pull gage measurements, travel measurements.

Just sayin'
Tilos

My thought is why fix something that ain't broke. I'm not the tinkering type but I can tell you if one of my guns' trigger is shorter than the other. Looking for hard data....go to Kahr. I have no way of measuring a trigger pull let alone the desire to do so. Better yet since you seem to have all the equipment, run your own tests and get back to us.


Just sayin.:photo:

[Bawanna]

Children, children, they are all the same length except the K9. 3/8" and 1/2" respectively.

4t5guy just posted some pull weights which clarifies that there is some variation there.

It's all good.

[Tilos]

I'm not sure why anyone thinks I want/need to modify any trigger stuff, as I said:
"I never finished and really lost interest in tinkering for any improvement"
and
"parts swopping, for marginal improvement"

I was just trying to find out what all the "talk" about the "difference" actually is, and I've come to believe it is just "talk".

kahrseye:
I'm not the one making claims of a difference, don't have a safe full of Kahrs to compare, and like you, have no reason to fix something that's not broke.
The people who claim/talk about different trigger pull lengths never seem to get around to to laying said guns on a ruler and measuring that pull length.
And I think I covered the kind of info asking Kahr would get.
I'm not sure why you are challenging me, as I agree with you.

4T5guy:
Thanks for the hard data on the pull weights of the different guns.
Now we have some numbers!

Once someone measures these mystical trigger travel variations we can answer these re-occurring trigger threads.
(I have a ruler but only 2 Kahrs:mad:)
I guess I can challenge too...Someone who claims a difference, measure and post the info.:)
How about it kahrbrian, any interest in doing some measurements?

Just sayin'
Tilos

[RogerP9fan]

Hey Mr. Zero, did you ever think your thread would attract all these interesting and insightful replies?

A brief digression, I just noticed for the first time that the K series barrels are 1/10'' shorter than the P series.......hmmmmmmm interesting, well I hope my P9 (that I'm finally gonna pick up today!) will be dead center bullseye accurate.

Anyway, back at it boys. And I think Bawanna was implying earlier to get along now and be nice about a good discourse and discussion.

[ripley16]

kahrseye:

Once someone measures these mystical trigger travel variations we can answer these re-occurring trigger threads.
(I have a ruler but only 2 Kahrs:mad:)

Tilos


To the best of my ability, it appears that Kahr measures the length of pull from the middle of the trigger, straight back in a line parallel to the slide. I did take a ruler to my Kahrs and they do in fact measure 3/8" and 1/2" when measured as above.

The guns measured this way are a '96 K9, (1/2"), P45, T9, TP9, TP45, K9 '09 elite trigger, CW9.

I haven't means to measure pull weight, but my finger tells me there is some variance. Kahr pretty much admits this too, and 4T5guy proved it. But when measuring the length, it seems to be very consistent.

[skychief12]

I hate to breakup the love a fare but while Kahr as many great aspects the trigger pull length/reset is not one of them. We are all hoping the in a combat situation all of the practice, practice, practice, overcomes.

[Tilos]

ripley16:

Thanks, whew, finally some real numbers.

For me, it started with post #3 and all that followed, not really the OP and this same "question" in just about every sub-forum...with the same "mine feels" list of answers.

And for those in the "it's a carry gun, who cares" camp, many companies have made a lot of money selling after market parts for blocks, also a defense gun, used in gun games :confused:.


ripley16:
Thanks again for measuring those trigger travels.

just sayin'
Tilos

[jocko]

I am certainly not hear to argue either with anyone, as if you feel your kahr trigger is shorter on one gun than others etc, that is fine, BUT the bottom line is that all kahrs except the K9 are rated at 3/8" trigger pull, now there is no doubt that trigger poundage will vary, for after all it is striker springs and also the actual trigger spirng to that could play a part of why one feels different. Basically kahrs are rated at 6 to 7# from the factory. Wolffs makes a 5# striker spring and I could not see wolffs makeing the 5# er if indeed kahrs trigger poundage was 5.5#. Would make no sense. I have a trigger poundage gauge, not a digital one but the one I have will give me a slight different reading about every damn timne I test a spring combo out.

Some kahrs are actually smoother out of the box than others and this certainly will give one a different feel of the trigger system, but my bet the actual pull lenght is 3/8". everything governing pull length is solid steel peaces that will not change in usage, where as springs can vary as we all know.

best advice I can give is to just shoot the damn thing like you stole it.

[Bawanna]

Wow, I didn't know we could say damn on here? Imagine that.

[jocko]

[QUOTE=Tilos;31250]ripley16:

Thanks, whew, finally some real numbers.

For me, it started with post #3 and all that followed, not really the OP and this same "question" in just about every sub-forum...with the same "mine feels" list of answers.

And for those in the "it's a carry gun, who cares" camp, many companies have made a lot of money selling after market parts for blocks, also a defense gun, used in gun games :confused:.


ripley16:
Thanks again for measuring those trigger travels.
MY TWO CENTS
if kahrs were a 10th as popular in sales as glocks, we might see some aftermarket mods, but they aren't and I think a liability issue might arise in why some after market people have not addressed it either. Just my guess. We have seen in the past couple of years alot more after market sights, wolffs makes for most models different poundage springs, and heavier strenght magazine springs. alot of good smitty's will grip stipple, slide melt, mag well cut outs etc aftermarket barrels etc. but to my knowlegde even cylinder and slide stops are screwing with the kahr trigger system. To me there must be a reason for that.

Might just be me but I don't forsee any gun with a 3/8" to 1/2" trigger pull being bragged on by target shooters. another reason why 1911 style guns are so damn popular in these type of events

[jocko]

Wow, I didn't know we could say damn on here? Imagine that.

senior members!!:eek:

[Tilos]

Oh yea, the 1911 analogy:D

I'm not old enough to have been there but didn't the 1911 start out as a defense gun too?

You know built for function, not accuracy:o

Oh no, what have I started now:eek:

Just sayin'
Tilos

[jocko]

Oh yea, the 1911 analogy:D

I'm not old enough to have been there but didn't the 1911 start out as a defense gun too?

You know built for function, not accuracy:o

Oh no, what have I started now:eek:

Just sayin'
Tilos

but are you gonna tell me that a single action 1911 is not far far easier to shoot than a kahr. Plus 5" bbl vs 3" bbl sure helps matters somewhat also.

Every gun can be called a defense gun I would imagine. I am sure there are some shooters out there that can make a kahr walk the walk and talk the talk, just that from I have read over the years, most cannot do it with its present set up.

IMO u have not started anything, merely good conversation, it could turn ugly but that will be your call not mine.

[Centaur]

I've had a P9 as my primary carry gun for about four years. I don't shoot it much but, try to shoot a box thru it every three months or so. Given the trigger pull and weight, any suggestions on a faster shooting method?

[jocko]

I've had a P9 as my primary carry gun for about four years. I don't shoot it much but, try to shoot a box thru it every three months or so. Given the trigger pull and weight, any suggestions on a faster shooting method?

it depends on ones wallet to,. ammo is not cheap, some people have a harder time going anywhere to even shoot. I live right next to the country areas and have no problems shooting, but some people have to pay ranges to shoot etc. the P9 is one heh of a great gun and a nice shooter. A box of 50 might be alittle bit shy but a box of 100 every couple of months might suffice.

It is expensive to do alot of shooting, unless one reloads and then even that is not cheap anymore...

[4T5Guy]

Hey there jacko, woops, sorry, I meant jocko, I am not new to this. I am not using a $10.00 RCBS spring trigger pull guage like yours. I pre-calibrated my guage and verified with known constant weights. I was just trying to help out ole Tilos and have no reason to falsify anything. You keep supporting Wolf, and believing that a factory Kahr can not have a 5.5 trigger weight because Wolf offers something for you to buy. I was still trying to give something back to this forum for everything that I have taken from it. To late for a Bawanna smoothy, I'm gone. Good luck to you all.

[Bawanna]

Hey there jacko, woops, sorry, I meant jocko, I am not new to this. I am not using a $10.00 RCBS spring trigger pull guage like yours. I pre-calibrated my guage and verified with known constant weights. I was just trying to help out ole Tilos and have no reason to falsify anything. You keep supporting Wolf, and believing that a factory Kahr can not have a 5.5 trigger weight because Wolf offers something for you to buy. I was still trying to give something back to this forum for everything that I have taken from it. To late for a Bawanna smoothy, I'm gone. Good luck to you all.

Hmmm, I did not see that one coming. It appears a nerve was stepped on squarely but fail to see where it happened.
Lets see in summary we determined length of pull on all Kahrs are 3/8" except the K9 which is 1/2". Check.
We determined the Kahr stated pull weight is 7 - 7 1/2# but obviously vary some.
I saw the statement that Wolff wouldn't make a 5.5 trigger if Kahr had one already cause it wouldn't make sense.
I don't get it but to many that just won't matter a tiny little bit.
I'll accept your good luck and pass it right back at ya.

Happy Trails.

[jocko]

I though I even stated my trigger gauge is not the most accurate either. But all one has to do is ASK kahr what their trigger poundage is and they will tell you and I have never heard of them every saying 5.5#. Not that springs cannot vary somewhat either. I think I also stated that. Considering wolffs makes kahrs springs, what other source of springs for kahrs are out there???

Hate to piss someone off,but if one reads my text, there IMO is nothing there that should have brought on such a reply back from 4t5 guy, but the jacko thing, I believe Bawanna was also used by another former member, so maybe one and the same.Some people tend to wear their feeling to close to the end of their noses.

Not worth arguing about, he choose to leave, not I, nor was any post of mine directed to 4t5guy..

UPDATE; The word form a kahr insdie director is that the trigger poundage on ALL kahrs is between 7 and 7.5# and they stated it could lighten up alittle bit withuse due to things wearingin better and springs loosing "some" power, but they were very doubtful about any kahrs ever leavin g the factory with 5.5# springs. These are not my words. I am just the messenger..

[Mr. Zero]

O. P. here...... wow......

I find it interesting that we can get four pages of discussion, mad members and no one actually answered my question. I get that the trigger pulls can very between guns and models, I just wondered how to tell the difference between an elite trigger and non elite. My guess is I just have a PM9 with a trigger pull on the stiff side of normal compared to my P45 which has a pull on the light side of normal, but thanks for all the reading........


Z.

[ripley16]

...and no one actually answered my question.

Yes it was. All but the K9 have the elite (3/8" ) trigger. It's that simple. Both your PM9 and P45 have the same trigger.

[Bawanna]

I found this thread absolutely hilarious. The question was answered on the first page, 3 post and on. Answer confirmed numerous times on the following pages but it was like no pictures so it didn't click or something.
It was a good original question, basically for all practical purposes there are no variations in the triggers offers. As stated some get better, some are smoother, some might be slightly lighter or heavier but they all leave Kahr under the same criteria.
Your absolutely right Mr. Zero in that you got one on the light side and one on the heavy side. The heavy will no doubt slick up and lighten some with use.
Thanks for allowing us something to run our keyboards on and not let things get boring around here.

[jocko]

trigger pulls and triggers variations are two different things. Indeed all have answered Mr. Zero question as best they can.

There are only TWO TRIGGERS ON KAHRS, THE ELITE AND THE NYPD. Both will be exactly either 3/8" (elite) length of pull or 1/2" NYPD length of pull. Kahr inside tech people have told me that the actual trigger pull in poundage is between 7 and 7.5 pounds. If one has a 5.5# trigger pull in poundage, he indeed has a super light trigger pull IF it came from the factory that way. As stated before poundage can vary due to smoothness of the over all mating of the surfaces, and/or a weaker spring for some reason other than the normal 7-7.5# spring and/or some weakenng of the spring due to alot of use.

No kahr will have the 1/2" trigger travel in it OTHER THAN THE K9.One can order a K9 wth the elite trigger in it, but 99%of K9 that are made come with the NYPD trigger. How we measure and how kahr measures their trigger travel can and possably is two different methods...

I had a Smith I think it was a model(17) 22 stainless that from the factory had the heaviest trigger I ever had tried to shoot. Even my Smitty said when I gave it to him for work said , wow, this gun is not right. After a complete action job with no spring replacements either, this gun felt 50% better, just by smoothing up metals that were making contact .... Actually Mr. Zero kahr that he measured that he felt was on the heavy side is about what it should have been actually. I have no explanation other that what has been stated on this compelte thread as to the other kahr that tested out so light etc.

[Tilos]

Mr Zero:
Glad to see you have revisited your thread to witness the drift...

Just to respond to your latest post(#38), "elite trigger and non elite" is pull LENGTH, not " I just have a PM9 with a trigger pull on the stiff side of normal compared to my P45 which has a pull on the light side of normal", which is pull WEIGHT:eek:.

So you are still mixing terms and all we have tried to do is clarify BOTH of them.

Sure would have liked some measurements from kahrbrian though, the post #3 "FEEL NOTICEABLY different" guy.
No thin skin here, it's been fun:D
Just sayin'
Tilos

[tnedator]

Ok, based on earlier posts, I'm a little confused. I have a PM9, and a buddy has a CW9. His feels different. Does CW9 have the elite trigger with 3/8" pull?

[jocko]

Ok, based on earlier posts, I'm a little confused. I have a PM9, and a buddy has a CW9. His feels different. Does CW9 have the elite trigger with 3/8" pull?

trigger systems. Your PM9 is a smaller handgun, that could add to difference of feel. One might be smoother out of the box than the other. One might have more rounds down range than the other, which will make a difference. Nothibng chaper inside a cw than a PM model.

THE ONLY GUN THAT HAS A DIFFERENT TRIGGER LENGTH IS THE K9

ALL OTHERS HAVE THE ELITE TRIGGER..:target:

Kahrs get smoother with more rounds down range as most any semi will also...

[tnedator]

trigger systems. Your PM9 is a smaller handgun, that cold add to difference of feel. One might be smoother out of the box than the other. One might have more rounds down range than the other, which will make a difference. Nothibng chaper inside a cw than a PM model.

THE ONLY GUN THAT HAS A DIFFERENT TRIGGER LENGTH IS THE K9

ALL OTHERS HAVE THE ELITE TRIGGER..:target:

Kahrs get smoother with more rounds down range as most any semi will also...

Thanks for the clarification. It was actually your earlier post in this thread that had me confused. The highlighted part below simply made no sense. I'm guessing it was just a typo or something, but since the sentence wasn't complete, I wasn't sure what point you were trying to make about the CW.


ONLY the K9 has the 1/2" trigger pull. EVERY OTHER KAHR HAS THE ELITE TRIGGER IN IT which is 3/8" pull, that being the cw series , also. Kahr triggers are very very smooth and willget some better but notmuch, just kinda hard to smooth what is already smooth. Why does maybe a T series feel different than a cw or a P series. Hard question to answer but could be the over all size of the gun makes things seem to work easier. The 5# wolffs striker spring, I hav ehadin my PM9 for over 3 years and IMO it is super. no change in pull length, just pressure change. It is not a hairy trigger at all, due rto again no pull length change. Your kahr might be smooth enough that you think you won't feel the difference in a 5# striker spirg, BUT YOU WILL.

Anyway, thanks again for the clarification. I had told my friend last week that I was pretty sure that the CW had the same elite trigger as my PM, but wanted to confirm what I told him was true.

[jocko]

I should have said including the cw series. sorry about that...

[RogerP9fan]

My new P9 trigger pull is sweet guys, I couldn't have asked for anything better. Been racking and dry firing in prep for Thurs. PM at the range!!!:target:

Now, on my new CZ 75 B coming, I'll probably be a stickler and get the competition hammer, lighter hammer spring and have the sear and all metal trigger parts polished.