A real discussion about caliber

[RonW]

The .32 ACP was the pocket pistol of choice throughout Prohibition. It was the caliber of choice for Europeans, both military & civilian. It was the most popular cartridge during the 20th century, one of the most bloodiest 100 yrs in history yet why is it no longer considered powerful enough for self defense today? It was good enough for the greatest generation yet today we scoff at the guy who carries a .32 for self defense. Most consider .380 as marginal in self defense applications. And forget about even thinking about a .25 auto and many consider using a .22 would be "inhumane". As Americans we are born into a society where bigger is better. Big homes, big cars, Double cheese burgers, & value sized fries and of course....Big Guns. Yes we all heard that shot placement is all that matters. Of course we all heard the saying "Carry what you can shoot well with". Today's topic is. Are we smarter today than our ancestors? Or are we turning into sissies for thinking we need even bigger guns to defend ourselves?

What say you?

[yqtszhj]

I had a paramedic at the shooting range tell me that he had seen more people die from a .22 than 9mm, 40, or 45 because the .22 wanders so much and does ones insides like scrambled eggs. I'll keep my 9mm and .45 though.

[JohnR]

People were skinnier in those days. A .32 didn't have as far to penetrate, to hit a vital organ.

[Scarywoody]

Today there are larger bands of misguided urban dwellers. Higher calibers results in higher body count. In the good old days you just had to stop a scoundrel from scoundrel-ling.

[Bobshouse]

All I can say is they are all better than a sharp stick. A .22, .25, .32, even a .17 will ruin your day.

[RolandD]

People were skinnier in those days. A .32 didn't have as far to penetrate, to hit a vital organ.

Where's the like button when you need it!

[berettabone]

There are many people who carry the smaller caliber firearms today............................................. ....taking things in to consideration, like wound channels, thickness of clothing, taking them off of their feet, etc., I like bigger boolits myself.

[Alfonse]

The .327 Federal Magnum is being touted as a better replacement for the .357 magnum. It also sounds like penetration is not the issue with that .32. There are some interesting tables comparing calibers in the article that folks might enjoy too. Those charts could lead one to believe that my little .22lr is just as effective as my 12 gauge. I wonder how that works?


https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/357-buster-ruger-sp101-327-fed-mag/

[Rubb]

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

[OldLincoln]

Seems to me it could come down to what's shooting back at you. If all shot .32 fine, but if my assailant is shooting large at 20' I want something at least somewhat competitive. At 10' in summertime, I s'pose a rock might work. For me I'll stick with my 45 in all seasons.

[Bawanna]

Man after me own heart.

[Bobshouse]

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Good reading Rubb, thanks!

[RonW]

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power


I've read this article before & it's probably the best study on the subject... Which brings us back to that shot placement regardless of caliber is more important.


Thanks for posting it...

[b4uqzme]

^^^ agreed. Carry what you shoot well. Carry as much ammo as you can. Carry what is comfortable so that you actually carry it. And practice.

[RonW]

It's interesting that according to his findings the .32acp had a higher incapacitation rate than the .45.... I wonder if that is because of the lesser recoil & therefore more accurate hits?

[Alfonse]

It's interesting that according to his findings the .32acp had a higher incapacitation rate than the .45.... I wonder if that is because of the lesser recoil & therefore more accurate hits?

So many variables. .22 looks pretty good in those charts too, but the physics say there are situations where it must be inferior. I think the different cartridges live in differing typical environments to explain the findings. Don't know that the environments are, but it must be so.

[zredwire]

I don't think that much has really changed as far as peoples feelings about caliber. They can all be deadly. What has changed in a big way is the ability for gun makers to make larger caliber guns that are physically small. Now a .380 gun can be as small as a .32. 9mm handguns are now getting very small. So people now are saying why not carry a larger caliber if the gun is virtually the same size. Obviously there are other factors such as recoil that affect what people carry, and thus why you still see people carrying the smaller calibers. But if you can overcome that then there is a strong argument to carry a larger caliber in a small gun.

[ltxi]

People were skinnier in those days. A .32 didn't have as far to penetrate, to hit a vital organ.

:)...

[ltxi]

Back in the days of way back when, my regular light, casual dress carry weapon was a Bauer .25ACP s/a with FMJ ammunition.

Wth was I thinkin'?

Today, I won't carry less than .22 Mag with Gold Dots....

[downtownv]

Where's the like button when you need it!

Feel free to use this one.
http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13907&stc=1

[CJB]

People were skinnier in those days. A .32 didn't have as far to penetrate, to hit a vital organ.

Very good answer! Auxology tells us that - Americans since about 1900 have overtaken their European counterparts (mostly) in height, for both genders. And, since the monumental shift from rural to suburban living after WWII in the USA, with vast expanse of the middle classes, child nutrition has made height leap even more. Look at a bed from the Civil War era. Looks like a kids bed for today. Nope. Full grown adults. Men at 5'4" and 130lbs, women at 4'11" and 95lbs were once commonplace. Hell, look at the uniforms from those days. Very few persons were six feet tall, or over.

And we've become lardasses.

If you shot a 5'4" 135lb person today (say a young teen), with a 32 Auto, I'm sure the results would be quite different than on a six foot two 260lb man.

[CJB]

And that said - I'd hate to get shot with a .32ACP!!!!

My favorite is the old slow, heavy, .45auto. Good then, good now. No magnumitis any more. Cured! I prefer 38's to 357. The .44 Russian or Special to the .44 Mag. And I don't feel under gunned with a .38 special. A 32 ACP... yah, I'd want more.

[Longitude Zero]

If you shot a 5'4" 135lb person today (say a young teen), with a 32 Auto, I'm sure the results would be quite different than on a six foot two 260lb man.

Maybe so maybe not. Mindset, alcohol/drug ingestion will have a say also. Every caliber has successes and failures. A 32 to the face beats a 44 to the foot.

[RonW]

I will say this much...... the .32 ACP aka the Browning 7.65 was the most popular round for military officers, NCO's, police, civiliains including gangsters from the early 20th century up until the 70's.. Mind you, the 20th century was the most bloodiest 100 yrs in human history and to have the .32 acp be the most popular cartridge really says a lot about it..... And after taking my old J.P. Sauer model 1913 in 7.65 browning to the shooting range I was quickly reminded that in no way shape or form would I want to be shot by one... I think as a self defense round it is more than adequate

[Alfonse]

I will say this much...... the .32 ACP aka the Browning 7.65 was the most popular round for military officers, NCO's, police, civiliains including gangsters from the early 20th century up until the 70's.. Mind you, the 20th century was the most bloodiest 100 yrs in human history and to have the .32 acp be the most popular cartridge really says a lot about it..... And after taking my old J.P. Sauer model 1913 in 7.65 browning to the shooting range I was quickly reminded that in no way shape or form would I want to be shot by one... I think as a self defense round it is more than adequate

That is such a cool pistol!

[Bills1873]

Yes, way cool! Got more pics?

[RonW]

Just a couple more pics of it..... I'm not sure of its date of manufactuer but I'm guessing late teen's early 20's... It is in exceptionally good condition, no pitting, min wear on the bluing, all matching numbers. All I've done was replace the original recoil & firing pin springs with new ones from wollf. It is a great little shooter, and accurate for what it is... Thanks!

[Bills1873]

Thanks for pictures! I'm interested in older carry guns such as that one.

[kwh]

Anybody have any experience with the new Lehigh extreme cavitator ammo or Buffalo Bore ammo in the .32
I do have a KelTec .32 a.c.p. This was when the .25 's were the only other small option. I already had my Walther PP .380. The Seecamp .32 was unobtainable, and the .380 KelTec was not yet in existence. Also, concealed carry was not exactly legal.

[SteveOak]

There are many people who carry the smaller caliber firearms today............................................. ....taking things in to consideration, like wound channels, thickness of clothing, taking them off of their feet, etc., I like bigger boolits myself.

I would encourage you to read the new FBI report. I have always been a 45 ACP fan for reasons you stated and believed the 125 gr Winchester HP in 357 to be the ultimate. (That is what is in my 4" 686.)

Here is the Executive summary:

Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners


Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades
Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore
Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best
In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident
Handgun stopping power is simply a myth
The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)
LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident
Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)
9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)
The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)
There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto
Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers



http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Very interesting.

Sounds like the best caliber/cartridge is the one that you will practice with until you become proficient.

[Papersniper]

I don't think that much has really changed as far as peoples feelings about caliber. They can all be deadly. What has changed in a big way is the ability for gun makers to make larger caliber guns that are physically small. Now a .380 gun can be as small as a .32. 9mm handguns are now getting very small. So people now are saying why not carry a larger caliber if the gun is virtually the same size. Obviously there are other factors such as recoil that affect what people carry, and thus why you still see people carrying the smaller calibers. But if you can overcome that then there is a strong argument to carry a larger caliber in a small gun.

I think you're on to something there.....never thought about it, but it makes sense, at least from a person SD perspective.

[berettabone]

I would encourage you to read the new FBI report. I have always been a 45 ACP fan for reasons you stated and believed the 125 gr Winchester HP in 357 to be the ultimate. (That is what is in my 4" 686.)

Here is the Executive summary:

Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners


Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades
Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore
Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best
In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident
Handgun stopping power is simply a myth
The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)
LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident
Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)
9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)
The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)
There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto
Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers



Very interesting.

Sounds like the best caliber/cartridge is the one that you will practice with until you become proficient.

I'll stick to my larger boolits.................................