PM9 Ammo Feed Issue

[Hank Hill]

Just fired my new PM9 for the first time today, using American Eagle 115 grain ball ammo. About 50% of the time the first round fails to feed when I start a fresh magazine. I called Kahr and they explained that I need to use the slide lock, then the release to load the first round. I assume this will solve the problem but that sure seems to be a time-consuming method if I need the gun in a hurry.

I guess that begs the question: Do you feel safe carrying with a round chambered?

[Popeye]

Just fired my new PM9 for the first time today, using American Eagle 115 grain ball ammo. About 50% of the time the first round fails to feed when I start a fresh magazine. I called Kahr and they explained that I need to use the slide lock, then the release to load the first round. I assume this will solve the problem but that sure seems to be a time-consuming method if I need the gun in a hurry.

I guess that begs the question: Do you feel safe carrying with a round chambered?


Of course in a proper holster that covers the trigger why wouldn't you ???

[Bawanna]

Just fired my new PM9 for the first time today, using American Eagle 115 grain ball ammo. About 50% of the time the first round fails to feed when I start a fresh magazine. I called Kahr and they explained that I need to use the slide lock, then the release to load the first round. I assume this will solve the problem but that sure seems to be a time-consuming method if I need the gun in a hurry.

I guess that begs the question: Do you feel safe carrying with a round chambered?

Usually after some break in this issue cures itself and you can load with the slingshot method or whatever. Some work fine out of the box. You just can't let that slide down at all, rip it back all the way and let it fly, almost abusively and it will probably work. It still perplexes me also the slide lock release but it works and has come up numerous times.
Absolutely safe to carry with a round chambered. If not comfy carrying with a round in the chamber you might as well leave it at home. First time you try to chamber around with 20 gallons of adrenaline coursing thru your veins it will jam for sure. The long trigger pull and built in safeties make it all good.

[deadhead1971]

Yes, you should slingshot the first round with the slide lock (the Kahr owner's manual says this). And I do keep one in the pipe--no problems or concerns. I keep it in a pocket holster, and the trigger is covered. Plus the long trigger pull is nice too for safety. A glock-like trigger would worry me a little.

If you hand rack it, the bullet will nose dive on the feed ramp, and that's what happened to you it sounds like. A glock is much easier to hand rack.

[Hank Hill]

Yes, you should slingshot the first round with the slide lock (the Kahr owner's manual says this). And I do keep one in the pipe--no problems or concerns. I keep it in a pocket holster, and the trigger is covered. Plus the long trigger pull is nice too for safety. A glock-like trigger would worry me a little.

If you hand rack it, the bullet will nose dive on the feed ramp, and that's what happened to you it sounds like. A glock is much easier to hand rack.

Reading instructions is for beginners. Oh wait, that's me. :)

Thanks for the advice, guys.

[deadhead1971]

It's just a Kahr quirk. There is nothing wrong. Since I keep one in the pipe all the time, the only time I sling shot rounds is at the range.

[Bawanna]

Reading instructions is for beginners. Oh wait, that's me. :)

Thanks for the advice, guys.

Kahrs are one of the few guns where it really and truely pays to read all that paperwork in the box. I usually don't waste alot of time reading that stuff but alot of issues brought up here are addressed in that little booklet. Not always accurately and some changes have been made like pulling the trigger a bit to replace the slide rather than just to take it off but it's an ever changing world.

We're all beginners in the game of life, about the time you got it figured out, everything changes and your a beginner again.

[jocko]

Reading instructions is for beginners. Oh wait, that's me. :)

Thanks for the advice, guys.

don't ever read instrucftions, u know a macho thing for us guys. Once you get some rounds down range and the gun and YOU mate up better, you will be able to hand rack with ease, but for awhile do use the slide lock lever, it will not let you down and kahr does recommend it also in the MANUAL.

I had troulbe at the beginning hand racking but now it is easy and when I bought my P380, kahr, I just couldnot hand rack it at all, but after about 1500 roun ds the gun and me mated up and I canhand rck it also now with ease. Gotta realize, just not alot of gun to get a hand around and we tend to ride the slide back to battery and this will just not work wellin kahrs. they are tight and they will stay tight also.

Nice gun u have, for me the best of the best..

[Hank Hill]

Thanks, I enjoyed shooting it for the first time and with its Crimson Trace -- man, I was shooting much much tighter groups with my PM9 than I do even with my Sig P239 without laser sites. Never imagined how much difference a laser would make.

Hafta say though that my Sig is hard to beat for pure smoothness...it's just too big to carry in summertime.

[jocko]

Thanks, I enjoyed shooting it for the first time and with its Crimson Trace -- man, I was shooting much much tighter groups with my PM9 than I do even with my Sig P239 without laser sites. Never imagined how much difference a laser would make.

Hafta say though that my Sig is hard to beat for pure smoothness...it's just too big to carry in summertime.

CT will make you a better shooter. I had a smith model 342 that I could not shoot worth a damn, I put a set of Ct grips on the gun and my groups were outstanding at 10 yards, totally unbelievable. I stillhave a 40 shoot group in my garage to show people. It was all CT that made me shoot that great group. that little dot just doesnt lie, if it is floating all over the place then one should realize where his shots are going to be also...

[OldLincoln]

The secret to slingshot a Kahr is to use the weak hand to pull back the slide and the strong to shove the gun out of the weak hands grip. That somewhat mimics the firing action and the slide has a good run at the next cartridge. Just make sure you keep it pointed downrange.

[kahrseye]

First off, I always carry one in the chamber. I've never felt uneasy about that. I figure if I need the gun I don't want to have to worry about using precious time that I may not have to rack the slide.

Second, whenever I load or reload the magazine, I always use the slide stop. At first it was very tight but since I've run off several hundred rounds I have no problem using the slide stop. Also, I think it's faster to reload using the slide stop...just my opinion.

[Shawn Dodson]

I had the same problem when chambering the first cartridge in a fully loaded magazine. Kahr's recommendation to always release the slide lock on a fully retracted and locked open slide is faulty, and possibly fatal advice. It's a cheap, bean-counter "fix" to an expensive hardware problem. The PM-9 is life-saving equipment.

A palm strike to the rear of the slide put mine in battery every time.

I refuse to operate the slide lock for anything other than to lock open the slide to unload or to clear a doublefeed stoppage. The reason? It adds complexity when clearing stoppages (tap-roll-rack, and combat reloads, for example).

That said, after breaking in my PM-9 it now reliably feeds the first cartridge in a fully loaded magazine when I roll & rack the slide.

I use the overhand method to operate the slide because it integrates well when I roll the pistol in the direction of the ejection port to use centrifugal force and gravity to help clear a fouled action.

Good luck.

[Hank Hill]

A palm strike to the rear of the slide put mine in battery every time.


Thanks, I'll try that technique.

[Bawanna]

I'd try it at the range and following the palm strike I'd eject without firing a couple to make sure your not driving the bullet down into the case causing a high pressure situation. It's all in how it's jammed. Most likely if the palm strike is successful the bullet and /or case is slipping past and all will be fine. It could be pushing the bullet down in the case though and thats not a good thing, while usually not catastrophic it can cause bad things if it gets driven deep enough.

[jocko]

First off, I always carry one in the chamber. I've never felt uneasy about that. I figure if I need the gun I don't want to have to worry about using precious time that I may not have to rack the slide.

Second, whenever I load or reload the magazine, I always use the slide stop. At first it was very tight but since I've run off several hundred rounds I have no problem using the slide stop. Also, I think it's faster to reload using the slide stop...just my opinion.

IMO right on all counts. One thing about using the slide stop is that it will release the slide every time with the same needed velocity to obtain proper feed.

Hand racking for some as we have read is iffy. One should definitely learn and know how to hand rack for clearing a jamed gun for sure, I can say this, a one armed guy will surely use the slide lock lever or although I hate scenarios, an injured person might indeed love the slide lock lever also. So for me I never say never

[Hank Hill]

First off, I always carry one in the chamber. I've never felt uneasy about that. I figure if I need the gun I don't want to have to worry about using precious time that I may not have to rack the slide.

Here is my concern. I was thinking about this just this morning as I was hosing off the lot at my business. The heavy 1" hose bumps and rubs and flops around. I'm worried that if it got hungup on my gun and pulled it out of the holster it might go off when it hit the concrete.

That's just one possible instance of many at my place of business where I'm physically bumping around stuff all day.

I'm probably thinking too much -- just want to cover every eventuality. I guess if I had to choose, I would prefer to risk my own neck by taking too much time by not having a round in the chamber, than to risk shooting an innocent bystander if my gun dropped to the ground.

P.S. I should clarify that I have to carry OWB, leaving the gun more exposed than it would be IWB.

[jocko]

Here is my concern. I was thinking about this just this morning as I was hosing off the lot at my business. The heavy 1" hose bumps and rubs and flops around. I'm worried that if it got hungup on my gun and pulled it out of the holster it might go off when it hit the concrete.

That's just one possible instance of many at my place of business where I'm physically bumping around stuff all day.

I'm probably thinking too much -- just want to cover every eventuality. I guess if I had to choose, I would prefer to risk my own neck by taking too much time by not having a round in the chamber, than to risk shooting an innocent bystander if my gun dropped to the ground.

P.S. I should clarify that I have to carry OWB, leaving the gun more exposed than it would be IWB.

ain't gonna go off if you drop the gun UNLESS u try to catch it and get your little pinkie in the trigger. Kahr's drop safe system has been tested and retested. If you fear that, then you don't trust the gun.

[Hank Hill]

ain't gonna go off if you drop the gun UNLESS u try to catch it and get your little pinkie in the trigger. Kahr's drop safe system has been tested and retested. If you fear that, then you don't trust the gun.

Perhaps I should learn more about my gun. I'd never heard of a drop safe system on the Kahr, or any other gun for that matter.

[texjames]

Perhaps I should learn more about my gun. I'd never heard of a drop safe system on the Kahr, or any other gun for that matter.
From a Kahr review..."The Kahr has no visible safety, so don’t bother looking for one—Kahr pistols have no externally located safety levers and no grip safety. What makes the pistol safe is inside. A spring-loaded striker block seats into a recess in the striker preventing it from moving into contact with a live round. The block is released only when the trigger has been pulled fully to the rear, disengaging the striker from the cocking cam...."

[frank_drebin]

Perhaps I should learn more about my gun. I'd never heard of a drop safe system on the Kahr, or any other gun for that matter.

It's quite simple really. The striker can not move forward unless the trigger is pulled because the striker block is blocking it from moving past flush. When you pull the trigger the striker block (part #7) is actuated by the cam machined in to the trigger. This allows the striker a free path to the primer. To check it out,


Pull your slide off and remove the barrel.
Pull the striker back and feel the spring tension.
If you let it come back forward the striker will stop and not protrude from the breech face.
Now, push down on the striker block (rectangular plunger next to the striker channel).
Try pushing the striker forward with this part pushed down. It should protrude from the breech face now.
Release the striker block and pull the striker back again. You should hear a click and the striker will not go back forward.


Now, imagine that you dropped your gun with a round chambered. The gun hits the concrete and the striker bounces forward. The striker block will not allow the striker point (firing pin) to move past the breech face and make contact with the primer. This is the same or similar system used successfully in most striker fired guns. Note that this is only true for properly functioning guns. The striker block should be checked for smooth function each time you clean the gun. This is true for Glocks as well.

[Bawanna]

Of similar note I regularly hold that striker block down and shake the slide back and forth, if all is well and clean versus gummed up and dirty you should hear or in my case feel the striker rattling back and forth. I do this also when checking officers Glocks. No rattle it's time to break it down and remove the lint (usually enough to make a pair of lederhose) and clean things up.

[jocko]

It's quite simple really. The striker can not move forward unless the trigger is pulled because the striker block is blocking it from moving past flush. When you pull the trigger the striker block (part #7) is actuated by the cam machined in to the trigger. This allows the striker a free path to the primer. To check it out,


Pull your slide off and remove the barrel.
Pull the striker back and feel the spring tension.
If you let it come back forward the striker will stop and not protrude from the breech face.
Now, push down on the striker block (rectangular plunger next to the striker channel).
Try pushing the striker forward with this part pushed down. It should protrude from the breech face now.
Release the striker block and pull the striker back again. You should hear a click and the striker will not go back forward.


Now, imagine that you dropped your gun with a round chambered. The gun hits the concrete and the striker bounces forward. The striker block will not allow the striker point (firing pin) to move past the breech face and make contact with the primer. This is the same or similar system used successfully in most striker fired guns. Note that this is only true for properly functioning guns. The striker block should be checked for smooth function each time you clean the gun. This is true for Glocks as well.

I think you can add with the kahrs, they are probalby 10-20% in a precocked stage, certainly not enough to ignite a round even if dropped with out a striker block. Not that anything cannot happen either but these are very very safe carry guns. Keep the striker channel spray cleaned as often as u clean the gun, that little cleanout hole on the bottom is just the ticket in keeping the striker channel clean without dissambly:cheer2:

also what Frank and bawanna jsut stated is dean on also..

[Hank Hill]

I ran another 50 rounds of RWS FMJ through it this morning - it had a failure to feed 4 times, always on the 2nd round in the 7 round mag.

I'm gonna give this lil gun a fair chance but I'm not crazy about it thus far. I have never had a single hiccup in my Sig P239, XD/9, or my Glock 22. Granted, it's apples to oranges because the PM9 is a much smaller gun, but I don't want to feel like I have to stand on my head and hold my tongue just right for it to go bang every time.

[deadhead1971]

that little cleanout hole on the bottom is just the ticket in keeping the striker channel clean without dissambly

Jocko-- Do you blow air in it to clean it? I think I have dropped a drop of oil it it before.

[deadhead1971]

Hank try this if you want to diagnose the problem. BE CAREFUL. :)

Load the 7 rd mag to the brim. Pull back the slide on the PM9, and insert the 7 rd mag, and then sling shot that first round. Press mag release and pull out the 7 rd magazine. And now remove the live round in the chamber. Look at the top round (which is the 2nd round) on the magazine and see if it or how far it has moved out of place. That will tell you the angle it will be hitting the feed ramp.

next time out shooting, I would switch out the followers. put the follower from the 6 rd in the 7rd and see if it makes a difference.

[Hank Hill]

Count me as a disatisfied customer. I was just attempting the method decribed in the post above, but now the first round fails to chamber even when using the slide lock. It did this 6 times in a row, each time requiring me to press the mag release and have the slide chamber the round when the mag came out (not an entirely safe situation).

I called Kahr tech support and the friendly Brittish chap asked me how I'm holding the gun, he said I might be applying pressure to the extention of the 7 round mag causing the round to nosedive into the ramp. It looks like this may indeed be what is happening.

So I'm having a problem with the first round on the 7 rd mag and the second round of the 6 rd mag??? Sorry, I lack the pateience to jump through hoops like a circus poodle to figure out a way to make this $800 gun work semi-consistently.

[jocko]

Jocko-- Do you blow air in it to clean it? I think I have dropped a drop of oil it it before.


best to keep the striker channel totally dry. It is all stainless and oil just draws crud and tends to keep it right there to. I just insert my spray can cleaner nozzle in tha thole and spray away to clean it. u might want to refer to the propper prepping of your new kahr theread, it explains my procedure alot better. I use that clean out hole every time I clean my kahrs. takes about 10 seconds to spray clean it and that channel will stay spiffy clean if u do it regularly. Most gun rags and gun nuts that I know try to keep that channel dry and clean. Not to say a drop of oil will harm anything but it might just creep out that breech hole and asyou know the primer is directly in front of that breech hole. could possably get into the primer cavity, as the gun is always pointed down and oil, no matter how little will run SOMEHWERE and EXIT somewhere..

[jocko]

Hank: how many rounds have you shot through the gun?? I never liked the extended magazine but they both should work correctly. the 6 rounder for sure. Lets eliminate some possabilitys.

check the magazine, take it apart and make sure the thing is put together correctly. check the follower. If you have some fine auto paper about 600+ grain, rollit up and polish under the two sides of the top of the magazine. One never knows, I doubt it but a slight burr could be causing a hang up.

U seem to know guns so how about alittle polish job on the feed ramp just to reassure your OK. Kahr does a good job on the feed ramps but again lets eliminate some possable. checkt os ee if the recoil spring is on correctly. Open end towards the front of the slide. I recommend a line of grease inside the slide rails and along those two rails in the dust cover. Sitting there and just racking the slide a few hudred times kinda melts things together with out the bang thing. Not saying any of this wills olve your isse, but keep the faith, u just might needs more rounds down range for things to shape up.

check tos ee that no rounds are hitting the inside of the slide lock lever, this will cause ftf's for sure and it might not happen allthe time. easy to check also. just take the slide off and reinsert the slide lock lever and theninsert a loaded magazine and watch on the left side what that bullet is doing. It should not hit that lever at all. I have ahard time believing you have two bad magazines but alot of times your type issues are magazine related.

If all this fails definitely call kahr and have them pick up the gun on their tab and make it right. It is easy to get disgusted when something doesn't work,but that will not solve anything either, so let kahr make it right and they will if needed. My feelings is possably more rounds down range. We have read on this forum many times of owners with new kahrs who in the first 200 rounds had ftf's and other crap happen and then all of a sudden "bingo" it works like it should.

I don't buy the pressure thing on the 7 rounder, what the hell do they expect you to do . That extra round magazine is also there to give you some more grip also. That to me soulds like a SWAG "Scientific wild ass guess"...

keep us posted and we are here to help if possable,but sometimes it just needs to go bck to the mother ship to..

[Popeye]

Mine probably has 500+rounds through it but my PM9 will let you slingshot the first round without any problems. I have never a FTF or FTE problem. When I first purchased the gun I tried to limp wrist it just to see what I could get away with just in case my hand was ever injured. I never could get it to malfunction in any manner.

If I slingshot a full mag and pull the mag out the second round has moved foward about a 1/8 of and inch inside the mag.
Having said that I'm not sure this is what happens when the pistol has actually been fired and goes through it's natural cycle. Let me ask you this! When you load the mag do you tap the bullets to the rear of the mag after it's fully loaded? I'm not sure if it makes a difference with the Kahr pistols or any of the modern day pistols because this is something I've alway done since I was in the service. Never really thought much about it till this post.

[Shawn Dodson]

I think you can add with the kahrs, they are probalby 10-20% in a precocked stage...

I suppose one can regard it as being somewhat "pre-cocked".

Spring tension is required to keep all the important firing mechanism parts in contact with one another.

[Bawanna]

Mine probably has 500+rounds through it but my PM9 will let you slingshot the first round without any problems. I have never a FTF or FTE problem. When I first purchased the gun I tried to limp wrist it just to see what I could get away with just in case my hand was ever injured. I never could get it to malfunction in any manner.

If I slingshot a full mag and pull the mag out the second round has moved foward about a 1/8 of and inch inside the mag.
Having said that I'm not sure this is what happens when the pistol has actually been fired and goes through it's natural cycle. Let me ask you this! When you load the mag do you tap the bullets to the rear of the mag after it's fully loaded? I'm not sure if it makes a difference with the Kahr pistols or any of the modern day pistols because this is something I've alway done since I was in the service. Never really thought much about it till this post.

I always tap the bullets to the rear and make sure they are loaded to the rear as I load. The second round moving forward I think is perfectly normal and a good thing as it helps make sure the stripper gets behind it on the recoil stroke to pick it up and feed the chamber. The texture of the stripper either smooth or not so smooth would influence how much the next round gets pushed forward. My PM 45 lacks the bevel on the front (I need to cure that) but for some reason it picks up fine with ball or practice but my Gold Dots it gives the crunch tick and sometimes doesn't allow the case to slide past, so when the slide is released it leaves bullets in the mag and an empty chamber. Wynn was on the leading edge of this dilemma some time back. An easy fix, I just gotta get r dun.

[Hank Hill]

Yes I tap the mags to seat the cartridges before inserting.

I just took it back to the dealer and will let them sort it all out with Kahr. I bet it will be right when it comes back; I've heard nothing but good things about Kahr and this gun in particular.

I'm a manufacturer myself so I know how sometimes something goes out the door before it was ready. Every company has that - what separates the good ones from all the rest is how they respond to issues. I will report back on that.

I appreciate y'all's advice on this.

[Popeye]

Sometimes it can be the slightest little thing that cause us big problems.:32:
I'm sure Kahr will get to the bottom of the problem. Good luck.

[jocko]

Hank: How many rounds have you put through this gun?????

[frank_drebin]

Count me as a disatisfied customer. I was just attempting the method decribed in the post above, but now the first round fails to chamber even when using the slide lock. It did this 6 times in a row, each time requiring me to press the mag release and have the slide chamber the round when the mag came out (not an entirely safe situation).

I called Kahr tech support and the friendly Brittish chap asked me how I'm holding the gun, he said I might be applying pressure to the extention of the 7 round mag causing the round to nosedive into the ramp. It looks like this may indeed be what is happening.

So I'm having a problem with the first round on the 7 rd mag and the second round of the 6 rd mag??? Sorry, I lack the pateience to jump through hoops like a circus poodle to figure out a way to make this $800 gun work semi-consistently.

sux.... make em fix it. They will. I sent my CW9 back and the replaced the slide. The PM9 can be an excellent gun. Make them fix it. You'll love it when it runs right.

[RogerP9fan]

Kahrs are DAO making them as safe to carry with one in the pipe as a revolver, I would think. I'm racking my slide and pulling this sweet trigger in preparation for my very first range trip next week! Wish I had gloves! ouch! These Kahrs are tight and you gotta follow directions to have the best results. (Not to mention the awesome advise dispensed right here)

[OldLincoln]

I put a 500 or so rounds through my PM9 and all was well except for twice when I limp wristed "on purpose of course" and got the required stove pipe.

But the mag lips were spread and rounds would leak into my pocket, so i reshaped the lips and all was well until I tried a new defensive round and had failure to feeds with a couple rounds per each clip. So I tweaked the mag lips ever so slightly and they feed perfect again.

I wag here, but do your rounds wiggle a bit side to side or are they gripped tightly and evenly like you would think they should be? BTW, look at a full mag as the lips spread more on a full mag. If there isn't a wiggle your mags may need a tweak and it's not simply spreading them but shaping the lips open very slightly. You'll know it when you see it.

[RogerP9fan]

So far my brand new mags are holding a full clip just fine, no wigggle, nothing. Perhaps I may carry an extra on a small single stack kydex belt mag holder but otherwise........ is there something out there you can put on the end of your magazine if you choose to pocket carry your extra mag that will prevent a round from wiggling out? I don't know, some kind of kydex cap that can fit over the top?

[SC Tiger]

I always tap the bullets to the rear and make sure they are loaded to the rear as I load. The second round moving forward I think is perfectly normal and a good thing as it helps make sure the stripper gets behind it on the recoil stroke to pick it up and feed the chamber.

I do the same thing when I load my Kahr up. Always a good idea when reloading an automatic if you have time to do it. The only annoyance is when you drop a loaded magazine out, it can hang up on that round sticking out.

As far as chambering, I ALWAYS chamber mine from a closed slide by racking it. I do this to build muscle memory, just in case I need to do it that way in a critical situation. That said, in a gunfight I'd just use the slide release. If I ride it at all it won't close completely (my LCP does the same thing).

Oh, and Bawanna45Cal, they're not called "strippers" anymore. They prefer the term "Exotic Dancers." :D

[OldLincoln]

So far my brand new mags are holding a full clip just fine, no wigggle, nothing.That's my point. If there's no wiggle the mags may be holding the round too tight. If you can borrow a mag that has some wiggle and see it loads right.

[wyntrout]

I just tried to mash the lips together on my 7-round 9mm extended grip magazine. I may have done that a tiny bit. The first round will only chamber from slide lock release OR a violent slingshot rack. Otherwise, the bullet is nosed into the ramp and "sticks" there. A good sharp rap to the rear of the slide will chamber the round, but I prefer to use the slide lock release.
I put some pix online to compare the new K920G, 8-round extended grip for the K9 and PM9:
http://kahrtalk.com/holsters-gear/2944-kahr-9mm-magazines.html#post31725

Wynn:)

[OldLincoln]

I always tap the bullets to the rear and make sure they are loaded to the rear as I load. I just read information that included bullets slide forward in the mag from recoil while shooting. The article is here (http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/smiley.htm).

[jocko]

I just read information that included bullets slide forward in the mag from recoil while shooting. The article is here (http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/smiley.htm).

what happens when a gun goes bang,: the recoil is backwards and the top round in the magazine has no barrier in front of it. It is sitting there and now all hell breaks loose and the gun goes bang and the magazine recoils with the gun but the bullet is unable to stay exactly in its position due to no front barrier keeping it from moving. It has to move forward

[Popeye]

It's also my belief that the previous bullet when it's chamberd drags the next bullet in line foward a bit. It does on my PM9. Load the mag. Stick it in the pistol and rack the top round into the barrel then drop the mag. You'll see the next bullet in line will be about and 1/8" foward from the back of the mag. because the front of the mag. is cut down to let it cycle.

[wyntrout]

Yeah, you don't need recoil, just chambering a round will drag the next round forward. I tried polishing the the underside of the slide to cut down on that dragging of the next cartridge forward, but it didn't seem to help. i just took a K9 magazine and pushed the top round forward and out of the magazine. The next round is dragged forward by the top cartridge as it goes forward. I think the rim of the top round catches in the groove forward of the next cartridge's rim and pulls it along about 1/8"... for each round chambered.
One of my "modification" experiments on P380 magazines was to try to steepen the angle of the follower... lower the rear of the top of the follower with a round file. I was running out of plastic and couldn't make much difference. If all of the cartridges were kept parallel to the top one... slanted upward the same in the front, there wouldn't be a problem... magazine design.
You just need to make sure the nose of the bullet isn't contacting the slide release "actuator tab". Filing (stoning is better) and polishing that outer "point" can help. Just don't take too much of the bearing surface away... the part that needs to connect with the follower pin to operate the slide lock.
You can check this by removing the slide, re-inserting the slide lock and then inserting a loaded magazine to check alignment with the bullet displaced forward as it is when a round is chambered ~ 1/8" or so... or just leave a round where it was when you last chambered a round.
Wynn:D

[OldLincoln]

Looking at the action of bullet feed, the slide coming forward touches the top of the primer end of the next round pushing the tip down directly into the ramp which then changes it's direction upward into the chamber, or hangs. It appears to be inefficient but I think all autos do that.

[citrusdog]

You must have a round chambered - with any firearm in a defense situation. The Kahr (and it's quirky first round feed requirement) - makes it all the more important. The "safety" is between your ears. If you have concern about this... then you may need to become more familiar with your firearm and gun savvy. The PM9 is a very nice gun - good choice.

[Popeye]

If you look closely you will notice the surfaces of the pickup rail is slightly concave to help match the roundness of the shells. If you ever shoot allot of rounds through your gun at one time you might notice that there will be brass on that surface and possibly the area around it. All this is nornmal though. It is however important to keep that lightly lubricated and clean. There is a whole lot going on in that area and none of it is of a gentle nature. I'm totally convince Kahr has built the PM9 as good as any pistol it's ever made. They call them Kahrs but there built like Peterbuilts.

No I don't work for them I just like there pistols.:D

[Phillip Dean]

Just fired my new PM9 for the first time today, using American Eagle 115 grain ball ammo. About 50% of the time the first round fails to feed when I start a fresh magazine. I called Kahr and they explained that I need to use the slide lock, then the release to load the first round. I assume this will solve the problem but that sure seems to be a time-consuming method if I need the gun in a hurry.

I guess that begs the question: Do you feel safe carrying with a round chambered?

I worked part time in a gun store for a few years. We had several customers come in with this issue. I explained to them Kahr's recommendation on loading the first round in a mag and pointed it out in the owner’s manual. They usually left the store a little skeptical. However, most would come back and report no problems when using his technique.

I always carry in one in the chamber. Just use a holster that guards the trigger.

[Hank Hill]

I always carry in one in the chamber. Just use a holster that guards the trigger.

Yeah I can't argue that having a round in the chamber is a good idea, I just get irritated when someone says anyone who doesn't is an idiot who shouldn't carry at all. It is that kind of elitism that wrongly stereotypes gun owners as extreme.

[OldLincoln]

I feel okay have a chambered round in my PM9, but never got comfy with my Colt Mustang PocketLite .380 and Colt LW Commander .45 being chambered AND the hammer back. It's safe in several flavors but still, the frigging hammer's back!!!

[Phillip Dean]

Yeah I can't argue that having a round in the chamber is a good idea, I just get irritated when someone says anyone who doesn't is an idiot who shouldn't carry at all. It is that kind of elitism that wrongly stereotypes gun owners as extreme.

Yea, to each their own. I think a person should educate themselves to understand the pros and cons of carrying with one in the pipe and make an informed decision for themselves.

I personally only will carry with one in the chamber. If you choose not to, please take the time to learn and practice the proper technique of the “Israeli draw”. I know some who carry this way and are fairly quick when they keep their skills sharp.

[Hank Hill]

Interesting video re: 1 in the chamber vs no: YouTube - Pistol Carry Method : +1 VS Israeli ... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj9UMUChV-I)

Using the Israeli Draw method, there was only .3 second difference. Granted, the guy looks well-trained, and adding an additional action increases the chance of a mistake.

Point being, it looks like a lot of training can significantly close the time difference between 1 in the chamber and no.

I guess here is where I'm ending up on this. I'd feel comfortable carrying my Sig with 1 in the chamber, but not my PM9. Since the PM9 has a less-than-stellar reputation of racking one into the chamber without doing it perfectly, I don't feel comfortable not having 1 in the chamber either. So, the PM9 will have to go.

[wyntrout]

Yeah, that's nice if you have the use of both hands, and you're not fending off someone with a knife, club, OR gun at CLOSE QUARTERS... OR wounded OR otherwise rendered one-handed. Always think best scenario and leave as much as possible to be done in the "heat of battle"... unexpected complications. I'm sure Murphy will favor you with his best "jokes" on you.
You train for the worst conditions that anyone can imagine, so that when something happens, you can handle just about anything. if you plan for the ideal, everything text-book conditions, you're usually going to be unprepared for anything BUT perfect scenarios.
The military trains and plans for the unexpected. In the Air Force, pilots train to take care of malfunctions and use what they have available. They have checklists and manuals to help, but many times you don't have the luxury of grabbing a book or checklist... your actions must be the correct ones and instinctive to keep flying or accomplish the mission, usually with the added incentive of saving the lives of yourself and the crew. A good example was Sully landing that airliner in the Hudson River. he had tens of thousands of hours flying time and a LOT of training in military aviation, unlike the two inexperienced pilots with only a few hundred hours civilian training that crashed a commuter plane within a month.
Gee, as usual, I get carried away. I'm a firm believer in situational awareness and paying attention to people and circumstances before possibly stumbling into a crime scene and becoming a "victim". I want to be prepared as possible and carrying "one in the tube" will hopefully give me at least ONE shot without real malfunctions or stress induced ones like fumbling your gun or dropping a magazine or any other "unlikely" occurrences.
I'm not a fan of the squared off stance with your torso fully presented as the largest target imaginable, either, unless you're wearing body armor.:D
Wynn:behindsofa:

[Hank Hill]

Yeah, that's nice if you have the use of both hands, and you're not fending off someone with a knife, club, OR gun at CLOSE QUARTERS... OR wounded OR otherwise rendered one-handed. Always think best scenario and leave as much as possible to be done in the "heat of battle"... unexpected complications. I'm sure Murphy will favor you with his best "jokes" on you.
You train for the worst conditions that anyone can imagine, so that when something happens, you can handle just about anything. if you plan for the ideal, everything text-book conditions, you're usually going to be unprepared for anything BUT perfect scenarios.
The military trains and plans for the unexpected. In the Air Force, pilots train to take care of malfunctions and use what they have available. They have checklists and manuals to help, but many times you don't have the luxury of grabbing a book or checklist... your actions must be the correct ones and instinctive to keep flying or accomplish the mission, usually with the added incentive of saving the lives of yourself and the crew. A good example was Sully landing that airliner in the Hudson River. he had tens of thousands of hours flying time and a LOT of training in military aviation, unlike the two inexperienced pilots with only a few hundred hours civilian training that crashed a commuter plane within a month.
Gee, as usual, I get carried away. I'm a firm believer in situational awareness and paying attention to people and circumstances before possibly stumbling into a crime scene and becoming a "victim". I want to be prepared as possible and carrying "one in the tube" will hopefully give me at least ONE shot without real malfunctions or stress induced ones like fumbling your gun or dropping a magazine or any other "unlikely" occurrences.
I'm not a fan of the squared off stance with your torso fully presented as the largest target imaginable, either, unless you're wearing body armor.:D
Wynn:behindsofa:


Very good points that I can relate to, I'm a Private Pilot. That probably is why I what if things to death. Using that same analogy, pilots are taught to fly the plane to the "black hole" if they lose an engine at night because you're less likely to kill innocent people where there are no lights...and it might also marginally improve your odds of not hitting a structure.

It is that same mentality that causes me to suspect that every mechanical device can fail. Given that, I think it's the right thing to do to put myself at slighly higher risk than it is to put an innocent party at higher risk.

All that said, I feel pretty safe keeping a round in the chamber of my Sig.

[Bawanna]

My only tiny little addition to all this is that if a gun jams it will nearly always be chambering the first round. Add gallons of adrenaline, shear panic, and fear and chambering a round as you draw will be a significant accomplishment.
I agree of course with the statement that guys who insist on a chambered round being extreme of macho etc and I know guys that carry with empty chambers.
As Wynn mentioned we plan ahead and I hope that I'll be aware of whats going on and have gun in hand and not even mess with a draw rather than surprise go for your gun or whistle Dixie!
If your not comfy with a chambered round I'd not do so or find a gun you are comfy with. I can't imagine a safer gun to carry with a chambered round than a Kahr.
Just my 4 bits less tax, license and dealer prep. (Guess I'll have to mail you the balance.)

[Popeye]

I don't get into what if senarios but IMO the simplier you keep things the better when the SHTF . If anyone thinks not carrying one in the pipe is a good idea go for it. When my granddaughter is around the house I take one out of the pipe and get the gun out of site and up high. The minute she leaves it goes back in. A 1/3 to 1/2 second may or may not mean anything,but then again it might mean everything. Hope none of us ever hasve to find out.

[Hank Hill]

I don't get into what if senarios but IMO the simplier you keep things the better when the SHTF . If anyone thinks not carrying one in the pipe is a good idea go for it. When my granddaughter is around the house I take one out of the pipe and get the gun out of site and up high. The minute she leaves it goes back in. A 1/3 to 1/2 second may or may not mean anything,but then again it might mean everything. Hope none of us ever hasve to find out.

Sounds like you thought it through pretty well.

[Popeye]

Hank I'm just the type that thinks people should do what there comfortable doing. (live and let live) If one feels uncomfortable carrying one in the pipe then they probably shouldn't. Maybe they need more training with there pistol so they are comfortable. I don't know. I'd like them to try something though and see for themselves just how safe carrying one in the chamber can be buy the use of a snap cap. Put a snap cap in the chamber go about your daily life and see if the pistol ever fires. I did this when I first started carrying on a regular bassis till I got comfortable. I'm not ashamed to admit it,it took some time for me till I got to where it just felt right. If situation does happen and you need to use your pistol then just rack it like in the video and the snap cap is gone and a live round takes it's place.
Most of todays auto pistols are loaded with safety features so there is very little chance of and accidential discharge when carried in a proper holster. Above all the person carrying is the one who has to be comfortable with the way they choose to carry there weapon knowone else.

[SC Tiger]

It's also my belief that the previous bullet when it's chamberd drags the next bullet in line foward a bit. It does on my PM9. Load the mag. Stick it in the pistol and rack the top round into the barrel then drop the mag. You'll see the next bullet in line will be about and 1/8" foward from the back of the mag. because the front of the mag. is cut down to let it cycle.

Not sure it happens when thee gun cycles, but you can make it do it by retracting the slide slightly and returning it to battery. I don't think its a problem but when I load up I give the mag a good smack on the rear to seat the rounds, plus my spare 7 rounder is in a knife pouch that is just wide enough.

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