johnchap2
06-25-2016, 12:04 PM
I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but I felt detail on what I have tried and am considering could assist any responders in their recommendations.
Just bought a CW380 and a CM9. Out of the box the CM9 worked flawlessly on first trip to range with 50 rounds through it. OTOH, the CW380 had one feed failure after another, as follows: On each test the first cartridge was chambered without a problem using the lock back lever and fired, but the subsequent rounds in the clip would not fully feed. I think in about 12 or more tries I only had the second round load and fire once, with feed problems with the rest. In other words, at best I might have one or two second rounds feed properly, but then the next one in the clip would jam. The feed problem is that the cartridge would be stuck partially chambered at a slight angle with the slide not fully closing. I was using 3 kinds of ammo [Remington Gold Saber HPJ, Hornady 90 gr XTP, and Winchester 95 gr – and yes I have since read that squared off Win are not recommended because of loading problems], and had 3 new Kahr clips (one 5 rnd came with the gun; one 5 rnd and one 7 rnd bought separately). Problem was present for each of the cartridge/clip combinations.
On close inspection I also noticed that each of the clips would leave tiny scratches on the two upper sides of the brass. Is this normal, or is each clip a bit too tight (pinched) at the top?
I am a fairly strong guy, although I do have a bit of arthritis in both hands. The CM9 was pretty stiff to rack back – much harder than my 1911 – but still doable since the larger slide provides a bigger grip. In general I could not rack the CW380 without using assistance such as a Handi-Racker or similar. My method of loading the CW380 is to load empty clip; use Handi-Racker to lock the slide back; replace empty clip with full clip; and then use lock release to chamber the first round. Never had a problem chambering this first round. While I have read that the smaller guns require a stiffer return spring, what I have with the CW380 is ridiculous, with the CM9's not much better. Making the racking problem even more difficult is the fact that due to the small size of the CW380 there is not much to grab onto.
Using a rather crude methodology I measured the force in pounds required to fully lock back the slides on the CW380, the CM9 and a model 1911. The methodology was to fit a plastic tube around the barrel and press the gun with empty clip down on the middle of a bathroom scale until the slide locks back. While the actual values may not be precise, the values for the three guns relative to each other are probably correct. The 1911 needed only about 18 lbs, while the two Kahrs each required about 27 lbs of force, nearly twice the force of the 1911. Is all that extra force really necessary?
One of the previous posts in this section that I read suggested that one of the possible causes of feed problems is that the cartridge being used was not powerful enough to force the slide fully back, thus causing the misfeed, and that a more powerful cartridge might overcome this problem. Sounded plausible to me, especially since chambering from the locked back position always worked in my tests with the CW380, and the fact that the return spring was so stiff. Since the force required to lock back both Kahrs measured the same, perhaps it is simply the more powerful 9mm cartridge that prevented feed problems in the CM9. I would appreciate some knowledgeable opinions on this, and perhaps recommendations re more powerful cartridges. Think +P cartridges would overcome the problem? In looking at a .380 ballistics chart it appears that the 3 cartridges I tested have a muzzle energy of 200 ft/lbs or less. Buffalo Bore has a number of .380 cartridges above 250 ft/lbs. Is Buffalo Bore worth a serious test? Of course, buying something special like Buffalo Bore adds significantly to the cost of breaking in the gun and future practice. The gun cannot currently be "broken in" with the ammo I have given the failure rate.
Possibly relevant/related experience – Nearly 50 years ago I bought a .22 LR S&W model Mod 61-2 which had a reputation for bad feeds – a reputation that I did not know about when I bought it. The cure for me was to use high velocity cartridges and not the standard LR. The standard LR would jam repeatedly while the HV LR very seldom jammed.
If the theory of needing a more powerful cartridge to force full racking is true, loading the gun with a single cartridge (with the cartridges I am testing) before firing might/should result in the slide not being locked back on the empty clip; at least some of the time. Unfortunately this did not occur to me while I was at the range where I could have easily and quickly run this single cartridge test several times to test the theory. Too bad because this would have been an easy theory to test out at the range, and I do not live in an area where I could simply go out into my yard to test things by firing few rounds.
Am also looking for some other suggestions that I can try. No, I did not disassemble the gun and clean it, but visually inspecting it showed it was reasonably clean with no excessive oil. Certainly as good as or better than it might ordinarily be if and when I ever feel comfortable putting it into service.
In any case, next week I will be visiting the dealer from where it was purchased to get his advice and hopefully some action on the issue, but I would like some input from this website before going there.
PS: for what it might be worth, with the slide locked and pistol facing down cartridges will simply fall into the chamber with ease; no binding or rubbing.
Also, per one suggestion on this Kahr website, I have been storing the guns with the slide locked open to hopefully reduce over time the level of effort required to rack the slides.
Just bought a CW380 and a CM9. Out of the box the CM9 worked flawlessly on first trip to range with 50 rounds through it. OTOH, the CW380 had one feed failure after another, as follows: On each test the first cartridge was chambered without a problem using the lock back lever and fired, but the subsequent rounds in the clip would not fully feed. I think in about 12 or more tries I only had the second round load and fire once, with feed problems with the rest. In other words, at best I might have one or two second rounds feed properly, but then the next one in the clip would jam. The feed problem is that the cartridge would be stuck partially chambered at a slight angle with the slide not fully closing. I was using 3 kinds of ammo [Remington Gold Saber HPJ, Hornady 90 gr XTP, and Winchester 95 gr – and yes I have since read that squared off Win are not recommended because of loading problems], and had 3 new Kahr clips (one 5 rnd came with the gun; one 5 rnd and one 7 rnd bought separately). Problem was present for each of the cartridge/clip combinations.
On close inspection I also noticed that each of the clips would leave tiny scratches on the two upper sides of the brass. Is this normal, or is each clip a bit too tight (pinched) at the top?
I am a fairly strong guy, although I do have a bit of arthritis in both hands. The CM9 was pretty stiff to rack back – much harder than my 1911 – but still doable since the larger slide provides a bigger grip. In general I could not rack the CW380 without using assistance such as a Handi-Racker or similar. My method of loading the CW380 is to load empty clip; use Handi-Racker to lock the slide back; replace empty clip with full clip; and then use lock release to chamber the first round. Never had a problem chambering this first round. While I have read that the smaller guns require a stiffer return spring, what I have with the CW380 is ridiculous, with the CM9's not much better. Making the racking problem even more difficult is the fact that due to the small size of the CW380 there is not much to grab onto.
Using a rather crude methodology I measured the force in pounds required to fully lock back the slides on the CW380, the CM9 and a model 1911. The methodology was to fit a plastic tube around the barrel and press the gun with empty clip down on the middle of a bathroom scale until the slide locks back. While the actual values may not be precise, the values for the three guns relative to each other are probably correct. The 1911 needed only about 18 lbs, while the two Kahrs each required about 27 lbs of force, nearly twice the force of the 1911. Is all that extra force really necessary?
One of the previous posts in this section that I read suggested that one of the possible causes of feed problems is that the cartridge being used was not powerful enough to force the slide fully back, thus causing the misfeed, and that a more powerful cartridge might overcome this problem. Sounded plausible to me, especially since chambering from the locked back position always worked in my tests with the CW380, and the fact that the return spring was so stiff. Since the force required to lock back both Kahrs measured the same, perhaps it is simply the more powerful 9mm cartridge that prevented feed problems in the CM9. I would appreciate some knowledgeable opinions on this, and perhaps recommendations re more powerful cartridges. Think +P cartridges would overcome the problem? In looking at a .380 ballistics chart it appears that the 3 cartridges I tested have a muzzle energy of 200 ft/lbs or less. Buffalo Bore has a number of .380 cartridges above 250 ft/lbs. Is Buffalo Bore worth a serious test? Of course, buying something special like Buffalo Bore adds significantly to the cost of breaking in the gun and future practice. The gun cannot currently be "broken in" with the ammo I have given the failure rate.
Possibly relevant/related experience – Nearly 50 years ago I bought a .22 LR S&W model Mod 61-2 which had a reputation for bad feeds – a reputation that I did not know about when I bought it. The cure for me was to use high velocity cartridges and not the standard LR. The standard LR would jam repeatedly while the HV LR very seldom jammed.
If the theory of needing a more powerful cartridge to force full racking is true, loading the gun with a single cartridge (with the cartridges I am testing) before firing might/should result in the slide not being locked back on the empty clip; at least some of the time. Unfortunately this did not occur to me while I was at the range where I could have easily and quickly run this single cartridge test several times to test the theory. Too bad because this would have been an easy theory to test out at the range, and I do not live in an area where I could simply go out into my yard to test things by firing few rounds.
Am also looking for some other suggestions that I can try. No, I did not disassemble the gun and clean it, but visually inspecting it showed it was reasonably clean with no excessive oil. Certainly as good as or better than it might ordinarily be if and when I ever feel comfortable putting it into service.
In any case, next week I will be visiting the dealer from where it was purchased to get his advice and hopefully some action on the issue, but I would like some input from this website before going there.
PS: for what it might be worth, with the slide locked and pistol facing down cartridges will simply fall into the chamber with ease; no binding or rubbing.
Also, per one suggestion on this Kahr website, I have been storing the guns with the slide locked open to hopefully reduce over time the level of effort required to rack the slides.