SBR, Sig Brace or 100% stock with a one point sling?

[Barth]

I've got one of the first Hk SP5K 9mm pistols pre-ordered and should be getting a tracking number within days.
I really don't like this 922r having to replace 6 German parts with third party stuff.:p
As well as some BS engraving on my pristine weapon.:mad:
My Bulgarian SLR-106U AK pistol I've left 100% stock and use the factory two point sling.
Actually have used it on a reactive pistol target course and shot better than with a HK45 pistol.
Was planning on leaving the SP5K 100% stock and just use the factory one point sling.
At lease try shooting it like that and see how it goes.

But I saw a video with a MP5K clone with a Sig Brace clone.
The guy said the brace was legal and didn't change the gun from a pistol.
There's no illegal way to shoot a pistol.
And proceeded to shoulder and shoot the gun like a SBR!
So I've ordered the SB15 Sig Brace/adapter for a MP5K.

Now I'm reading about this 10 days before NFA gun trust rules change.
And lots of folks are rushing to file before the deadline.
It's making me re-think the SBR thingy.

Thoughts?

[yqtszhj]

I've got one of the first Hk SP5K 9mm pistols pre-ordered and should be getting a tracking number within days.
I really don't like this 922r having to replace 6 German parts with third party stuff.:p
As well as some BS engraving on my pristine weapon.:mad:
My Bulgarian SLR-106U AK pistol I've left 100% stock and use the factory two point sling.
Actually have used it on a reactive pistol target course and shot better than with a HK45 pistol.
Was planning on leaving the SP5K 100% stock and just use the factory one point sling.
At lease try shooting it like that and see how it goes.

But I saw a video with a MP5K clone with a Sig Brace clone.
The guy said the brace was legal and didn't change the gun from a pistol.
There's no illegal way to shoot a pistol.
And proceeded to shoulder and shoot the gun like a SBR!
So I've ordered the SB15 Sig Brace/adapter for a MP5K.

Now I'm reading about this 10 days before NFA gun trust rules change.
And lots of folks are rushing to file before the deadline.
It's making me re-think the SBR thingy.

Thoughts?

Whats the change coming? I had not heard of that?

[CJB]

Ill have 2 sigbraces for sale in a month

[CJB]

Back to a real keyboard.

Here's the scoop on the SIG Brace. There have been two letters (at least) from ATF. One said something like "when used as designed" it does not change the firearm from pistol to rifle. Key is in quotes above. Then they reinforced that "as designed" in another letter, later on.

The following sums it up:
https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download
From ATF's point of view of course.

The problem with an SBR is the lack of portability from state to state, if you are so inclined to travel. It must be pre-approved, even if only visiting for a brief time. AKA, a Floridian visiting his kin in Ga. for the weekend.

The other "problem" with an SBR is the "once an SBR, always and SBR" rule, unless you inform ATF of your actions.

The work around is to engrave the UPPER with your identification (name/trust-name, city, state, serial). This is legal and has been done many times.

The real work around is the bullpup configuration. The TAVOR comes to mind. Takes AR mags, overall length 26.125 inches, and 16.5 inch barrel, which make it a better shooter than an SBR.

I have 7=1/2 inch and 10 inch barrels on uppers, with braces at the present time. I will be SBRing them, via the upper engraving method, although I have no plans to ever leave my state. Hence the Sig Braces will go on the block for sale.

I think if I had to start over, I'd just get a TAVOR and be done with it, as a compliment to, not replacement of, the full size AR's.

And, BTW, forget any sort of SBS - short barrel shotgun.

You take my Serbu Shorty - with its 6-1/2 inch 12 gauge barrel - and put a shoulder stock behind it's Rem-870 receiver, you've got a length the same as a KSG shotgun.
Serbu - 6-1/2 inch, 3 shot. KSG -18.5 inch 13 shot. Essentially the same size. Why SBS when you can do better with the KSG. Yes, a controversial reputation, but I think like Kahr, most work just fine and you never gonna hear from those folks.

[mr surveyor]

mentioning Kel-Tec will certainly raise the wrath of Jocko ... no matter where he is ;)


jd

[CJB]

Hopefully we'll see Jman back here soon!

BTW.... another thing about Title II weapons (erroneously called "Class III Weapons"), is you do not need to carry the papers. There is no dictate for you to do so. You have the stamped documents, they can remain in your safe place.

The other day, with the Serbu at the indoor range, I got my first taste of "former LEO". "You have a permit for that Class Three?".

"What Class Three? This is Title Two"

"THAT is a CLASS THREE WEAPON"

"So I need a 'permit' for it?"

"Its ten thousand dollars and ten years in jail to get caught with that without being able to SHOW THE PERMIT"

"You, sir, are mistaken", and I left the place. And he was mistaken on many levels.

There are folks who say "carry the papers, in case you get asked". To me, that's like carrying your birth certificate in case you get asked. Remember - LEO cannot legally take your Title II firearm, unless he has reason to believe a crime has occurred. Not being able to produce something for which there is no legal mandate to produce, is not evidence of a crime, and does not constitute probable cause. That is the law.

Think of it this way - "Show me the bill of sale for your wristwatch!". "Why?". "To prove you didn't steal it!".

Your not producing the bill of sale, does not constitute criminality, nor probable cause in an of itself. Why? You are not required to possess a bill of sale. Same is true for the Tax Stamp (not permit, sheesh) for your Title II firearm.

I hope that makes things clear as a bell.

[yqtszhj]

Back to a real keyboard.

Here's the scoop on the SIG Brace. There have been two letters (at least) from ATF. One said something like "when used as designed" it does not change the firearm from pistol to rifle. Key is in quotes above. Then they reinforced that "as designed" in another letter, later on.

The following sums it up:
https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download
From ATF's point of view of course.

The problem with an SBR is the lack of portability from state to state, if you are so inclined to travel. It must be pre-approved, even if only visiting for a brief time. AKA, a Floridian visiting his kin in Ga. for the weekend.

The other "problem" with an SBR is the "once an SBR, always and SBR" rule, unless you inform ATF of your actions.

The work around is to engrave the UPPER with your identification (name/trust-name, city, state, serial). This is legal and has been done many times.

The real work around is the bullpup configuration. The TAVOR comes to mind. Takes AR mags, overall length 26.125 inches, and 16.5 inch barrel, which make it a better shooter than an SBR.

I have 7=1/2 inch and 10 inch barrels on uppers, with braces at the present time. I will be SBRing them, via the upper engraving method, although I have no plans to ever leave my state. Hence the Sig Braces will go on the block for sale.

I think if I had to start over, I'd just get a TAVOR and be done with it, as a compliment to, not replacement of, the full size AR's.

And, BTW, forget any sort of SBS - short barrel shotgun.

You take my Serbu Shorty - with its 6-1/2 inch 12 gauge barrel - and put a shoulder stock behind it's Rem-870 receiver, you've got a length the same as a KSG shotgun.
Serbu - 6-1/2 inch, 3 shot. KSG -18.5 inch 13 shot. Essentially the same size. Why SBS when you can do better with the KSG. Yes, a controversial reputation, but I think like Kahr, most work just fine and you never gonna hear from those folks.

Got a Tavor last year and its awesome (after removing the extra trigger return spring.) I did measure mine shortly after getting it and it measured 27 and I said "What???" Then I realized the removable flash suppressor doesn't count as part of the barrel length. I like the red dot on it since it weighs enough without it and doesn't need to be weighted down any more.
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o706/yqtszhj/IMG_20150925_162539214_zpslprqizqr.jpg

[yqtszhj]

The other day, with the Serbu at the indoor range, I got my first taste of "former LEO". "You have a permit for that Class Three?".

"What Class Three? This is Title Two"

"THAT is a CLASS THREE WEAPON"

"So I need a 'permit' for it?"

"Its ten thousand dollars and ten years in jail to get caught with that without being able to SHOW THE PERMIT"

"You, sir, are mistaken", and I left the place. And he was mistaken on many levels.

There are folks who say "carry the papers, in case you get asked". To me, that's like carrying your birth certificate in case you get asked. Remember - LEO cannot legally take your Title II firearm, unless he has reason to believe a crime has occurred. Not being able to produce something for which there is no legal mandate to produce, is not evidence of a crime, and does not constitute probable cause. That is the law.

Think of it this way - "Show me the bill of sale for your wristwatch!". "Why?". "To prove you didn't steal it!".

Your not producing the bill of sale, does not constitute criminality, nor probable cause in an of itself. Why? You are not required to possess a bill of sale. Same is true for the Tax Stamp (not permit, sheesh) for your Title II firearm.

I hope that makes things clear as a bell.

That kind of stuff drives me nuts.

[CJB]

Got a Tavor last year and its awesome (after removing the extra trigger return spring.) I did measure mine shortly after getting it and it measured 27 and I said "What???" Then I realized the removable flash suppressor doesn't count as part of the barrel length. I like the red dot on it since it weighs enough without it and doesn't need to be weighted down any more.
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o706/yqtszhj/IMG_20150925_162539214_zpslprqizqr.jpg

You're giving me TAVORITIS!

[Barth]

Whats the change coming? I had not heard of that?
As expected, President Obama and his DOJ will be directing ATF to enforce rule changes for NFA trusts. As of July 13, 2016, responsible parties on NFA trusts will be required to “notify” their local CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) when a new NFA application is sent. In addition, responsible parties within a trust will need to send ATF photos and fingerprint cards when submitting a Form 1 or Form 4. As part of these executive actions, the Obama Administration will also reportedly bedropping the dreaded CLEO sign off (http://www.guns.com/2016/01/05/white-house-crackdown-includes-dropping-cleo-requirement-on-nfa-items/) requirement proposed in ATF 41P (https://coltguntrust.com/gun-control-executive-actions-next-up-atf-41p/). That is at least some welcomed news for NFA enthusiasts living in anti-second amendment jurisdictions.



ATF New Rule Change regarding Trusts and Corporations

(Effective July 13th, 2016)
The Department of Justice (ATF) has finalized a rule change which, affects all gun trusts and corporations which seek to acquire NFA items after the effective date of the change. The rule, once effective, would require notices to CLEO of submissions of Form 1’s and Form 4’s by trusts and corporations and also fingerprint cards, photos and background checks for all trustees and responsible officers. At present there are no such requirements. The proposed change set forth in 27 CRF 479 is to become effective July 13th, 2016.





ATF New Rule Change regarding Trusts and Corporations

(Effective July 13th, 2016)
The Department of Justice (ATF) has finalized a rule change which, affects all gun trusts and corporations which seek to acquire NFA items after the effective date of the change. The rule, once effective, would require notices to CLEO of submissions of Form 1’s and Form 4’s by trusts and corporations and also fingerprint cards, photos and background checks for all trustees and responsible officers. At present there are no such requirements. The proposed change set forth in 27 CRF 479 is to become effective July 13th, 2016.



Get your ATF 41F Compliant gun trust NOW and make your NFA firearm purchases SOON to avoid new ATF fingerprinting, photographing, and CLEO notification requirements going into effect on JULY 13, 2016!

Get your ATF 41F Compliant gun trust NOW and make your NFA firearm purchases SOON to avoid new ATF fingerprinting, photographing, and CLEO notification requirements going into effect on JULY 13, 2016!

[Barth]

I've slept on it and hate all this legal mumbo jumbo:mad:
The Sig SB15 brace and adapter are on order.
I've got miles of desert to shoot in.:cool:
Neither the bad guy in my house or investigating LE will know how I was shooting the PDW.:p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckzJKF90k0w

[jeepster09]

Hopefully we'll see Jman back here soon!

BTW.... another thing about Title II weapons (erroneously called "Class III Weapons"), is you do not need to carry the papers. There is no dictate for you to do so. You have the stamped documents, they can remain in your safe place.

The other day, with the Serbu at the indoor range, I got my first taste of "former LEO". "You have a permit for that Class Three?".

"What Class Three? This is Title Two"

"THAT is a CLASS THREE WEAPON"

"So I need a 'permit' for it?"

"Its ten thousand dollars and ten years in jail to get caught with that without being able to SHOW THE PERMIT"

"You, sir, are mistaken", and I left the place. And he was mistaken on many levels.

There are folks who say "carry the papers, in case you get asked". To me, that's like carrying your birth certificate in case you get asked. Remember - LEO cannot legally take your Title II firearm, unless he has reason to believe a crime has occurred. Not being able to produce something for which there is no legal mandate to produce, is not evidence of a crime, and does not constitute probable cause. That is the law.

Think of it this way - "Show me the bill of sale for your wristwatch!". "Why?". "To prove you didn't steal it!".

Your not producing the bill of sale, does not constitute criminality, nor probable cause in an of itself. Why? You are not required to possess a bill of sale. Same is true for the Tax Stamp (not permit, sheesh) for your Title II firearm.

I hope that makes things clear as a bell.

There are a lot of things that are LEGAL that can get you in trouble...ie....OPEN CARRY. Try walking down most Main Streets with open carry and see if it don't bring you hassles. Is it worth just to say I can legally do so? I have heard many cops say "I will go ahead and make an arrest and let the courts sort it out". That is not right but it happens all the time. Who has deeper pockets for legal defense? You or the State/City? Save the hassle and carry a photo copy of original.

[yqtszhj]

You're giving me TAVORITIS!

Yeah, I caught that bug last year. Found the cure on grab a gun on sale one day.it's about as small as you can get without doing extra paperwork.

[yqtszhj]

As expected, President Obama and his DOJ will be directing ATF to enforce rule changes for NFA trusts. As of July 13, 2016, responsible parties on NFA trusts will be required to “notify” their local CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) when a new NFA application is sent. In addition, responsible parties within a trust will need to send ATF photos and fingerprint cards when submitting a Form 1 or Form 4. As part of these executive actions, the Obama Administration will also reportedly bedropping the dreaded CLEO sign off (http://www.guns.com/2016/01/05/white-house-crackdown-includes-dropping-cleo-requirement-on-nfa-items/) requirement proposed in ATF 41P (https://coltguntrust.com/gun-control-executive-actions-next-up-atf-41p/). That is at least some welcomed news for NFA enthusiasts living in anti-second amendment jurisdictions.



ATF New Rule Change regarding Trusts and Corporations

(Effective July 13th, 2016)
The Department of Justice (ATF) has finalized a rule change which, affects all gun trusts and corporations which seek to acquire NFA items after the effective date of the change. The rule, once effective, would require notices to CLEO of submissions of Form 1’s and Form 4’s by trusts and corporations and also fingerprint cards, photos and background checks for all trustees and responsible officers. At present there are no such requirements. The proposed change set forth in 27 CRF 479 is to become effective July 13th, 2016.





ATF New Rule Change regarding Trusts and Corporations

(Effective July 13th, 2016)
The Department of Justice (ATF) has finalized a rule change which, affects all gun trusts and corporations which seek to acquire NFA items after the effective date of the change. The rule, once effective, would require notices to CLEO of submissions of Form 1’s and Form 4’s by trusts and corporations and also fingerprint cards, photos and background checks for all trustees and responsible officers. At present there are no such requirements. The proposed change set forth in 27 CRF 479 is to become effective July 13th, 2016.



Get your ATF 41F Compliant gun trust NOW and make your NFA firearm purchases SOON to avoid new ATF fingerprinting, photographing, and CLEO notification requirements going into effect on JULY 13, 2016!

Get your ATF 41F Compliant gun trust NOW and make your NFA firearm purchases SOON to avoid new ATF fingerprinting, photographing, and CLEO notification requirements going into effect on JULY 13, 2016!


If its not one thing it's something else. :crazy:

[gb6491]

Nice rifle and a nice photo yqtszhj!
Regards,
Greg

[Barth]

Yup, that looks like the answer to my problem -
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/97/ed/46/97ed468ba2bc22e950e914758e78dbac.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYzwUsnryTo

[yqtszhj]

Watch the 2 hickok45 videos for some good info on it. Then fair warning you'll have to get ready to pull out the magic plastic card and order one.

[Barth]

Watch the 2 hickok45 videos for some good info on it. Then fair warning you'll have to get ready to pull out the magic plastic card and order one.

I have four:D

[Barth]

:cool:http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r678/barthunderwood/20160717_090820_zpslh0ixgxe.jpg?t=1468685466

[yqtszhj]

Very nice.

[knkali]

Kalifornia dreaming on such a winters day........

[Barth]

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r678/barthunderwood/IMG_20160718_170601_zpspfkvw0i7.jpg

[Barth]

https://youtu.be/gp5JCrSXkJY?t=5