Thinking about another Kahr or ?

[SaltyNC]

I see some posts by members here either adding the P/CW/CT380 to their PM or CM9. I also see the reverse. I have a CW380, and I keep going back and forth on the XDS .45 or a CM9. I know the CM9 is smaller, lighter, and it's going to be very similar to my CW380, and that's a good thing and a bad thing. It's good, because I'm familiar with it. Everything is nearly the same in operation. I know how to grip and shoot a Kahr. But, I keep thinking it is so similar in size, if I got the CM9, would I no longer need the CW380, or would I find the CW380 has been so comfortable, the CM9 (though tiny by all standards) will feel like a huge lead weight because I've gotten used to the CW380's tiny size and light weight. So, then I start thinking maybe I should just go with the XDS .45 for a larger carry option. I already have a full size XD .40 and I enjoy the way it shoots. I like the trigger and reset. I keep it beside my bed. I like the idea of a grip safety on a carry gun. So, maybe I should just get the XDS in .45 and skip 9mm all together. CW380 for light summer carry, dress clothes, etc, and the XDS .45 for other times. Is the CM45 an option? I don't know. Is it a good one? I think the other Kahr .45s are probably too large for what I want to carry.

Then, I think about the hit rate statistics. Man, it's pretty disheartening if we're honest with ourselves. Even at very close distances, most police miss their target most of the time. We're talking less than 25% success rate, and I'm being generous. Sure, .45 has stopping power, but only if I get a hit, and I doubt I'm going to do any better statistically than the police. I practice, but I imagine my abilities will be diminished like most people if I have to use a pistol to defend myself. I'm slow to boot. I've just never been a super fast person at anything. I'm the Droopy Dog of self defense. I know some police aren't well-trained. I know some of us practice far more and actually have an interest in firearms, while some police see their firearm like a flashlight - it's just a tool not an interest. Maybe that explains some of their misses, but probably more has to do with adrenaline and instincts than whether Officer Mary and Officer Bob love firearms and shooting.

So, with the XDS, I only get a few shots, and if I miss most of the shots, now what? With the XDS, I'll already have over a pound and a half on me. I know I won't carry extra magazines. Just won't do it. And if statistically people miss most of their shots, I start thinking about where those heavy, powerful .45s are going when they sail past the threat I'm trying to stop.

I'm stuck in an endless loop. Maybe you guys can help me out with some suggestions. Stick with the CW380 for carry. Add a CM9 for carry. Or, Add ____ .45 for carry.

Salty

[spazzwarr]

I would suggest that you see if you can rent an XDS-45 locally and fire 50 rounds through it. From my experience, the XDS does not handle like the full size XD line. For that matter, check out if any of the the Kahr 45s are for rental. The Kahr CW45 is very close to the same dimensions of the XDS-45. Length and width are close. XDS-45 is .3in. shorter but the CW45 has 6 rnd. mag as standard. CW45's barrel is approximately .3in. longer than the XDS-45. For carry guns I have a XDS-45 3.3in brl, 4 kahrs (CW380, PM9, PM40, and a TP45) and a Ruger SR40c.

A lot of people really like the XDS-45. However, after shooting 250 rnds. through mine, I consider it unreliable and will not carry it. I have had FFL, FTE, FTB, and light strike issues with it. Sent it back to the factory and they returned it in 5 days. Most of the issues are working out through shooting the gun. The light strike issue is not. Shows up occasionally which is no good for a self defense handgun.

Some people seem to have nothing but problems with their Kahrs. I have had no problems with 3 of my Kahrs. The PM40 has broken a mag follower and had some FTB events. The FTB was fixed with a little "red grease" on the recoil springs and guide rod. The Ruger SR40c has been flawless. This is my experience. I am sure there are a large number of people who have had good experiences with the XDS-45. The main problem according to the forums and Springfield is limp wristing. I have never had a problem with limp wristing my Kahrs and the PM40 is a snappy little handgun. I did have to modify my grip with the XDS-45. Just my opinion and experience. Good luck in your search for a "45".

[Bills1873]

I occasionally carry my CM45, mostly when it's cooler weather, as my PM9 is easier to conceal. The CM45, for some reason, is the best shooter I have, I'm most consistent with it, even over several full sized autos I own. The handgun you carry, no matter number of rounds, should be the one you shoot best, as the odds of hitting the target under duress are increased, IMHO. I should carry the CM45, sacrifice for the one more round of the PM9, but don't, due to ability to conceal. Spazzwarr"s rental advice is a great start in making a decision.

[kenemoore]

Okay, here goes, I think everyone should carry the largest gun they can, more capacity, better sight radius. I believe that everyone should carry two guns. So..keep the the .380 and get a CW45 or CM45, same manual of arms, same trigger. 9mm may expand, but .45 will never shrink. (yes I'm biased.). Pocket the .380 and get a nice holster/belt rig for the .45 If Kahr is not an option go bigger get a full sized XDM . 45 or a high capacity XDM 9mm..

[Barth]

Carry what you shoot the best.
I like to carry a high cap compact with a light weight BUG.
These days that's a Sig P229 357 with a Ruger LCP .380.
But as some have noticed, I change things up regularly:p

[CJB]

I have two PM45's and a PM9

I carry the one PM45 almost every day. And, every time I take it from my pocket and shoot it, it runs 100 percent.

The design is sound, elegant in fact. Its execution sometimes has a hiccup, like any mechanical item. The expectation of shooters is the main culprit, or so it seems to me.

You dang near have to shoot the snot out of a PM/CM to get it all limbered up. Is this the "mechanical smoothness"? No.

Its that really tight recoil spring, for the most part. The design is manufactured in an unbalanced condition. The requisite spring tensions are not as they ought to be. They "become" as they ought to be, with some shooting. This is true of all pistols, but is exasperated with the PM/CM, which is a design low on forgiveness. They are Thoroughbreds. Very well suited to being concealed. That is their reason for being.

The P/CW are more forgiving, and the TP/CT are forgiving even more so.

It is a matter of mechanics, physics.

But, if you shoot the snot out of your PM/CM, you'll end up with a great pistol.

[kwh]

My opinion/experience. Short answer: keep the .380 as back-up: Kahr CM9 or CW9 as main carry. You did not specify how you would carry, what belt used, or what clothes you would be wearing, or if pocket carrying, what size pockets.
Negatives for the the .45 1) Ammo will over penetrate in short barrels -most reliable bullet performance is in barrels 4.25'"and longer. Having said this, there is ammo now that now will both penetrate and expand in the short barrels. 2) the .45 is heavier with ammo 3) unable to carry as many rounds in similar sized pistols, 4) follow -up shots take longer. 5) ammo more expensive for practice.
I have a CW 45 which I personally would choose over the XD for the following reasons. I am already familiar with my CW380, CM9, and CW9. I shoot the tightest groups with my CW 45 ,sweet trigger pull,feels good in hand, I prefer the post/dot sights over the 3 dot sights.
380a.c.p.,:: using H.P, under penetration is a serious issue.However XTP bullets have seemed to resolved that issue. I shot my CW 380 well. It functioned well after I became used to it. It was easy to carry front and rear pocket, lightweight dress pants, ankle holster, Remora IWB .
9mm.:: My EDC is a CM9 front pocket carry. It is the best form of carry for me with the work and activities that I do. I use a dedicated thick belt (Wild Bill's).
I bought the CW380 after my CM9. I let my Daughter borrow it and never got it back. She shoots it well and is a good carry for her. Now, having only my CM9, I do not really miss the CW 380. The CM9 is not all that much bigger and since I am used to it, weight is not an issue. It carries in an ankle holster just as well. I shoot tighter groups at 15 yards with the CW9 compared to the CW380.
Why the 9mm for my primary carry: 1) the .380 a.c.p. seems under powered compared to 9mm 2) I pocket carry in dress casual pants, 3) compared to the .45 (in comparison of short barreled pistols) stopping power is equal 4) H.P. bullets reach near max performance in barrels that can be 1 inch shorter than .45 5) best combo of power/size.
When I IWB carry I use my CW45 1) because it is a .45 2) It is the most accurate, I shoot it well out to 25 yards 3) great trigger 4) I like the dot/post sights 5) I like to see the big holes in the target 6) familiar Kahr format 7) I trust the large heavy .45 bullet in case of large dog attack,which is more likely in the area that I walk in than a "bad guy". For me ,I see no advantage to the XDS or its grip safety.
When deep concealment I pouch carry at 12:00, a .40 Shield with thumb safety.
OWB carry::Ruger SR9, or 357 Sig/40 S&W M&P , or model 19 S&W .357 mag. , or recently .327 Federal Magnum Ruger SP101, or Ruger1911 SR45.
Personally I think you should have multiple types of carry and multiple calibers depending on--------------.;)

[knkali]

Ill help u out....make me a resonable offer on my just broken in P45 all black no NS

[zaitcev]

So, then I start thinking maybe I should just go with the XDS .45 for a larger carry option. I already have a full size XD .40 and I enjoy the way it shoots. I like the trigger and reset. I keep it beside my bed. I like the idea of a grip safety on a carry gun. So, maybe I should just get the XDS in .45 and skip 9mm all together. CW380 for light summer carry, dress clothes, etc, and the XDS .45 for other times. Is the CM45 an option? I don't know. Is it a good one? I think the other Kahr .45s are probably too large for what I want to carry.

Don't assume a similarity between XD-S and HS2000 family. The grips are different. I have an XD(m) in .45, which has all the advantages you described. However, XD-S .45 hurts my middle finger by hitting it with the aggressive undercut of the trigger guard.

The CM45 may be an option. It's a bit thicker than XD-S, but otherwise about the same size. It still has that stupid Kahr .45 magazine, however. I have a P45 and it really ruins the charm. I had no luck adapting 1911 magazines per numerous discussions on the forums.

[zaitcev]

I believe that everyone should carry two guns.
It's unlawful for civilians to carry 2 guns concealed in New Mexico (can still open-carry or keep 1 in truck). Check your local regulations.

[SaltyNC]

Carry what you shoot the best.
I like to carry a high cap compact with a light weight BUG.
These days that's a Sig P229 357 with a Ruger LCP .380.
But as some have noticed, I change things up regularly:p

Yeah, I saw that, but you're the real deal, so it's OK. :p (just joking around with you!)

Thanks for the info!

Salty

[SaltyNC]

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I think the range suggestion is a good one, and I do plan to make a trip to try a number of the pistols. There are just too many good choices these days. The small size and light weight of the CM9 is really appealing. The PPS M2 looks good, too, but I just wish it were a bit shorter and weighed a little less. Choices, choices. I'll let ya'll know what I decide. Thanks again!

Salty

[gb6491]

For a size comparison, here are my three favorite pistols for concealed carry in .45ACP.
http://i63.tinypic.com/2ynjrbr.jpg
The Colt started life as a an Officer's ACP. It's a CCO configuration now. Regardless of the configuration, this pistol has always been reliable and accurate for me. The lower end has had a short trigger installed and some trigger work was done on it.
The CW45 had some growing pains. It's always been accurate in my hands. It's now reliable as well. It has Trijicon night sights installed. The slide stop is the P45 version, just because I like the look. I pretty much only run modified Officers/compact 1911 magazines in it. I've had no issues at all with them.
The XD-S has been back to SA for the grip safety recall. It has had trigger work done on it post recall. The LCI has been modified to protrude less. The sights have been changed to Ameriglo "hack" night sights. I think most importantly, the slide has been modified to make chambering rounds easier. Further, I think the mod lessens the chances of light strikes caused by the slide not returning to full battery and the same for failures to feed from extended magazines. It also has a prototype metal striker guide (made by a company dear to many here) that I'm quite happy with....actually, as it sits now, I'm quite happy with my XD-S.
Regards,
Greg

[SaltyNC]

For a size comparison, here are my three favorite pistols for concealed carry in .45ACP.

The Colt started life as a an Officer's ACP. It's a CCO configuration now. Regardless of the configuration, this pistol has always been reliable and accurate for me. The lower end has had a short trigger installed and some trigger work was done on it.
The CW45 had some growing pains. It's always been accurate in my hands. It's now reliable as well. It has Trijicon night sights installed. The slide stop is the P45 version, just because I like the look. I pretty much only run modified Officers/compact 1911 magazines in it. I've had no issues at all with them.
The XD-S has been back to SA for the grip safety recall. It has had trigger work done on it post recall. The LCI has been modified to protrude less. The sights have been changed to Ameriglo "hack" night sights. I think most importantly, the slide has been modified to make chambering rounds easier. Further, I think the mod lessens the chances of light strikes caused by the slide not returning to full battery and the same for failures to feed from extended magazines. It also has a prototype metal striker guide (made by a company dear to many here) that I'm quite happy with....actually, as it sits now, I'm quite happy with my XD-S.
Regards,
Greg

Greg, thanks for the comparison of your .45s. Do you feel like the trigger is as good or better than it was prior to the recall after the work you've done on it on the XDS? I know a lot of folks were disappointed when the trigger changed post-recall fix. Wow, that's a lot of mods on the ol' XDS. Was the indicator getting in the way of your sights?

I like the flush magazine with the Kahr. Looks and I'm sure feels like it should. It's interesting how people view design differently. I just could never allow a pistol to go out the door with a gap between the magazine base, but that's just me.

Do you carry one of these more than the others?

Thanks!

Salty

[kenemoore]

It's unlawful for civilians to carry 2 guns concealed in New Mexico (can still open-carry or keep 1 in truck). Check your local regulations.

My bad, don't remember the 2nd saying about that.

[zaitcev]

I pretty much only run modified Officers/compact 1911 magazines in it. I've had no issues at all with them.
Lucky you. I even ordered a couple of Lightline followers for mine, but so far no luck.

[nmkahrshooter]

Also try a CT45. I carry one everyday in 100 degree heat and don't have any issues.

[gb6491]

Greg, thanks for the comparison of your .45s. Do you feel like the trigger is as good or better than it was prior to the recall after the work you've done on it on the XDS? I know a lot of folks were disappointed when the trigger changed post-recall fix. Wow, that's a lot of mods on the ol' XDS. Was the indicator getting in the way of your sights?

I like the flush magazine with the Kahr. Looks and I'm sure feels like it should. It's interesting how people view design differently. I just could never allow a pistol to go out the door with a gap between the magazine base, but that's just me.

Do you carry one of these more than the others?

Thanks!

Salty
Salty,
The XD-S trigger was quite heavy post recall. After some polishing and bending a spring leg, I'd say it's better than it was before the recall.
The LCI did come up slightly into the sight picture with the Ameriglo sights. I also didn't like the look of it.

I used to carry the Colt, as an Officers ACP, quite a bit IWB. As a CCO, the carry is mostly OWB, but for that I'd just go with a Government size 1911.
The CW45 dethroned the Colt where concealed carry is concerned.
The XD-S sees quite of bit of carry when I'm out hiking. That's mostly OWB carry. The shorter grip gets along well with packs and other equipment. It's also a lot easier on the Jeep's seat back.

Lucky you. I even ordered a couple of Lightline followers for mine, but so far no luck.
Lucky? Maybe so....what kind of problems are you having?

Regards,
Greg

[Dbholfo]

I shot the Glock 30 and 36 and the XDs 45 and 9 before I got my Kahr PM45. I've shot the snot out of it and it has indeed loosened up. The XDs just didn't fit my hand by being a bit too small. The G36 was a little fat even though single stack. Like Goldilocks and the chair my PM45 fits just right. I've only ever carried .45ACP so I only adjusted from a Ruger PM345 to the Kahr. The Ruger was DA/SA so there was a minor adjustment but since day 1 the Kahr is easily as accurate and easy to handle.