Break-in question

[mpgo4th]

On the very first fired round in my new cm9, the slide failed to remove the spent brass completely and hung up. I racked the slide and fired 50 rounds trouble free. I've run 115, 124 and 147 JHP as well as cheap and expensive fmj just rounds with no problems. I'm over 100 rounds now and have had zero problems since the very first round. I feel that this gun is good to go for carry and I trust it 100%. I keep reading about people and watching videos on YouTube about people needing to run 2 or 3 or even 500 rounds before they feel it's ready for self defense. Maybe I'm wrong but two 50 round boxes using three mags and I can't think of any reason not to trust it. Not really a question just wondering how everyone else feels about it.


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[berettabone]

Your going to shoot it anyway right????????????????? Then the 200 rd. count is meaningless. Just for giggles, shoot the other 100 rds. You'll thank me later.......................................

[Bawanna]

Many folks are completely comfy after 1 box, I know some that don't even shoot that much and figure they are good to go.
It's all about your confidence, not anyone elses. I'm one of those guys that wants 500 perfect rounds or we start over and figure out what's up. That has actually reduced some due to ammo cost and time constraints but I shoot as much as I can until I know it runs.

Course Murphy follows me around like a pet project so I may be more concerned than others.

I think your probably good to go but as beretta said, sure don't hurt to put another 100 through it when you can.

[mpgo4th]

Of course I'm going to continue to shoot it. That's what I do with all of my guns. Any carry gun I own gets shot like a range gun too. Maybe more. I was only pointing out that I'm comfortable with mine already as some are never really satisfied. In no way was I implying that it's good to go and now I'll just carry it forever without shooting it again.


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[Bawanna]

Your thinking good. You'd be surprised how many folks never or hardly ever shoot their carry guns.

Usually when I go to the range the carry guns are shot first. I don't do anything to prep them, just shoot them the way they been carried since the last trip. Use the ammo in the carry mags.
Then shoot practice ammo and reload with good stuff for the ride home and the forthcoming cleaning.

Go forth with confidence, your plan is sound.

[Papersniper]

On the very first fired round in my new cm9, the slide failed to remove the spent brass completely and hung up. I racked the slide and fired 50 rounds trouble free. I've run 115, 124 and 147 JHP as well as cheap and expensive fmj just rounds with no problems. I'm over 100 rounds now and have had zero problems since the very first round. I feel that this gun is good to go for carry and I trust it 100%. I keep reading about people and watching videos on YouTube about people needing to run 2 or 3 or even 500 rounds before they feel it's ready for self defense. Maybe I'm wrong but two 50 round boxes using three mags and I can't think of any reason not to trust it. Not really a question just wondering how everyone else feels about it.

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It's probably not scientific, but I feel a lot better about guns that work 100% with the first 20 rounds or so. I expect to have problems with any new firearm, so I'm never surprised with problems until after I've shot 200 or so rounds through them. In my experience, if a pistol does 100% with the first 2 or 3 magazines, it's very unlikely it will not show any addition problems with the next 200 rounds or so. If it stumbles occasionally with the first couple of magazine, it's likely it will have the occasion problem through the first 200 rounds or so.

The catch is, of course, that even after firing the "break in rounds", whatever that count is, we still have to consider what we're actually going to carry. I usually fire 200 FMJ rounds through anything I plan to carry before trying out my carry ammo.....but I do not fire another 200 rounds of that super-expensive stuff to continue the "break in"! I'll fire at least 20 of those SD rounds unless that particular gun seems to have problems during those 20 rounds.....then it's time for a decision. Having said that, I have not yet had a pistol that completed the "break in" of at least 200 rounds that failed to function (within 20 rounds) my chosen carry ammo. Of course, I am using pretty standard carry ammo; no weight bullet weights, no super unusual bullet type, etc, etc.

[ripley16]

I'm not into counting rounds before I'm OK with a new gun. I carry the gun when I'm comfortable, confident and competent with it. That usually takes a couple hundred rounds at least anyway. I carried my Seecamp after maybe three mags. It all depends on the gun. I'd carry any HK with no practice, (although I would anyway). Depends on the gun, depends on how I feel I can shoot it... the three "C"s.

[mpgo4th]

It's probably not scientific, but I feel a lot better about guns that work 100% with the first 20 rounds or so. I expect to have problems with any new firearm, so I'm never surprised with problems until after I've shot 200 or so rounds through them. In my experience, if a pistol does 100% with the first 2 or 3 magazines, it's very unlikely it will not show any addition problems with the next 200 rounds or so. If it stumbles occasionally with the first couple of magazine, it's likely it will have the occasion problem through the first 200 rounds or so.

The catch is, of course, that even after firing the "break in rounds", whatever that count is, we still have to consider what we're actually going to carry. I usually fire 200 FMJ rounds through anything I plan to carry before trying out my carry ammo.....but I do not fire another 200 rounds of that super-expensive stuff to continue the "break in"! I'll fire at least 20 of those SD rounds unless that particular gun seems to have problems during those 20 rounds.....then it's time for a decision. Having said that, I have not yet had a pistol that completed the "break in" of at least 200 rounds that failed to function (within 20 rounds) my chosen carry ammo. Of course, I am using pretty standard carry ammo; no weight bullet weights, no super unusual bullet type, etc, etc.

I agree with you totally. I the few problem children I've had always acted up in the first 20 or so rounds. Some got better with break-in, some did not. Only once did I give up on a gun. The manufacturer actually replaced it and the new one was worse. Not to start a brand debate but I no longer buy, own or recommend their.


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[mpgo4th]

I'm not into counting rounds before I'm OK with a new gun. I carry the gun when I'm comfortable, confident and competent with it. That usually takes a couple hundred rounds at least anyway. I carried my Seecamp after maybe three mags. It all depends on the gun. I'd carry any HK with no practice, (although I would anyway). Depends on the gun, depends on how I feel I can shoot it... the three "C"s.

I tend to be the same way.


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[Papersniper]

I..... Not to start a brand debate but I no longer buy, own or recommend .....



Ah come on, give us a hint!:confused:

[dustnchips]

200 trouble free rounds and I felt good to carry. I have gone to the range monthly and shot 50 rounds out of both of my carry guns, a PM9 and a CW380. I do some dry fire practice with both guns on a regular basis and feel that you still need to fire live rounds on a monthly basis. To buy a gun and stick it in your pocket without regular practice is foolish. JMO

[berettabone]

From what I've seen, there are many people who have never fired their carry firearm...................................which is a very scary thing.................

[mpgo4th]

Ah come on, give us a hint!:confused:

It rhymes with Morris


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[Papersniper]

Morris? Have to think on that a while.......I can think of one toward the end of the alphabet.....:cool:

[SteveOak]

200 trouble free rounds and I felt good to carry. I have gone to the range monthly and shot 50 rounds out of both of my carry guns, a PM9 and a CW380. I do some dry fire practice with both guns on a regular basis and feel that you still need to fire live rounds on a monthly basis. To buy a gun and stick it in your pocket without regular practice is foolish. JMO

Even though dustnchips goes beyond break-in, that is what I would consider both the minimum and adequate regimen.

Since I am new to Kahr Talk I will give some background.

The second time I fired a handgun I qualified as Expert in Navy boot camp. The first time was when I was 5 years old and my grandfather held his hands around mine while I pulled the trigger on a little Smith 38 Special revolver.

Since then I have reloaded and fired in various disciplines (IPSC, NRA Handgun Silhouette, local bowling pin matches etc.) something on the order of 30,000 rounds of handgun ammunition and another 10,000 rounds of centerfire rifle ammunition. I have also fired around 10,000 rounds of rimfire rifle ammunition, 3,000 in the last four months.

I knew very little about Kahrs until a few weeks ago when I decided to acquire a readily concealable handgun. I did some reading and settled on a Kahr, either a P380 or PM9. After seeing a CM9 in a LGS I decided that the PM9 was small enough to comfortably conceal with light summer clothing. While I would have been confident with a 380, I am happy that I found a serviceable 9mm.

I may still end up getting a P380. We'll see.

[mpgo4th]

Morris? Have to think on that a while.......I can think of one toward the end of the alphabet.....:cool:

Second hint... They are made in the same country that is hosting the Olympics.


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[Papersniper]

"..Second hint... They are made in the same country that is hosting the Olympics. ..."

Yeah, I figured it out!:cool:

[kwh]

3rd hint; everything is "Bull"

[mpgo4th]

The gun in question wast actually a revolver. It had timing issues and the fitting was done so poorly that the side cover wouldn't even screw down tight. They kept it for 3 months before destroying it and sending me a new gun. That one would lock up the cylinder too.


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[Papersniper]

The gun in question wast actually a revolver. It had timing issues and the fitting was done so poorly that the side cover wouldn't even screw down tight. They kept it for 3 months before destroying it and sending me a new gun. That one would lock up the cylinder too.


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Oh gosh, that's our car gun, a model 85! Knock on wood we have had no problems in the 2 years and maybe 200 rounds we're fired through it.

[Kahrguy]

After chronic FTF and failure to lock back problems with my new P380 (after 350+ rounds of several makes and types and addressing possible user error problems), I finally gave up and had my shop send it back to Kahr to see what magic they could work. But I still wonder--does Kahr testfire the pistols before sending them out? And is there a reason why Kahr doesn't break them in so they're dependable out of the box?

[SaltyNC]

Your last sentence captures my sentiment. If you spend some time on multiple gun forums, you'll see a trend with discussions around Kahrs. Someone will say they love it, best carry gun ever. Another person will say they tried one and love the trigger, but that they won't buy one, because they hear about reliability issues, and usually add that Glocks just run anything right out of the box. Then, someone may say they had to send one back a couple of times, and they just gave up and sold it, couldn't trust it. Clearly, the Kahr design is excellent. That Kahr trigger is sweet. It's a great shooting pistol to be so small (the PM/CM, P/CW). They truly seem to need a break-in for many of us or a heavy prep job.

Man, if I was Kahr, I'd either adjust tolerances or I'd devise some mechanical means of duplicating spring sets, slide wear-in, etc., so when the pistol was taken out of the box, it would just run like a champ. If they did that, their reputation would be so much better. And let's say it adds $10 to the cost of each pistol. I doubt any of us would be swayed one way or the other over $10 when choosing a carry firearm.

If Kahr is listening, here's my two cents, and maybe that's all it is worth. No way would I send out pistols knowing there was a good chance of failures in the first few rounds. It would be like buying a car that misfired on the test drive but got better after 100 miles, or buying a drill that wouldn't rotate until you tapped it on the side a few times the first few time you used it, or buying a lawn mower that threw sparks and made a grinding nose for the first 10 minutes, but then ran great, or maybe it's a rock climbing belay device that lets the rope slip two or three feet the first few times it is used, but then it works fine. Really? Are any of those other scenarios acceptable? No way in hell. Why it is OK on a firearm that is used to protect your life to not function until it is broken in?

For the record, the CW380 is THE primary pistol for me, and I put up with the break-in, and it really has run great since then, but I still think Kahr would do themselves a big favor if they kept those failures within their factory, and delivered to me a firearm that functions the first time I pull the trigger.

Salty

[CJB]

Clearly, the Kahr design is excellent.

True dat!

There are a few little quibbles in the design. I wish the trigger pin was retained by, say, a wire spring that could also double in another function. The slide stop spring sometimes gives issues, but those are easily corrected. If I were to keep spare parts for a Kahr, it would be that spring, and the little washer that holds it, and a spare screw too. Kahr could have done "one-up" and put a disassembly hole in the slide's rear cover to make detail cleaning more easily accomplished, but that's not a design failure, but a wishlist item.

There are some folks who don't give Kahr its due.
Some who had some failures, fail to understand the break-in and give up.
Some who need pistols to be tweaked at the factory, and immediately sell them upon return.
Some who are just not suited to small pistols of any type.
And some who just go from gun to gun, naming the defects of each, never quite being satisfied.

Then there are the great masses of people, who buy a Kahr, shoot the fokker like they stole it, and are happy therein.

And finally, there are the abject social misfits that have little to do but complain on the internet.

[OvalNut]

...

Then there are the great masses of people, who buy a Kahr, shoot the fokker like they stole it, and are happy therein.

...

= Me ;)

I shoot the fok out of mine, and it plain old just runs. Accurately, predictably. And as a result I carry it with comfort every day.


Tim

[landman]

I have finally reached the point where I am feeling comfortable enough to carry my tp9.it has been a tough one to break in and I am now at 500 rounds through it.it took way more then the recommended 200 rounds to run reliably.i love the gun but it was a bit expensive to get her to run properly.

[Bobshouse]

Why do you say expensive? Price of ammo or did you do something else?

[CJB]

Lets quote the Kahr manual:

The KAHR Pistol must run through an initial break-in period before achieving fully reliable feeding and functioning. The pistol should not be considered fully reliable until after it has fired 200 rounds.

The manual does not say it will be broken in at 200 rounds. The manual says it should not be considered reliable until after it has fired 200 rounds. So, sometime after 200 rounds, it can be considered reliable - I take the 200 number as a minimum, not a guaranteed amount.

Much of the "break in" depends on the power of the ammo, the weight of the bullet, the grip and muscle tone of the shooter, even temperature while shooting to some extent.

As has been said before - its the recoil spring that must get limbered up, and to some extent the extractor too. Used to be in the "good old days" you'd get a rough made (on the inside) Colt .45 Auto, or Browning HP, or S&W 39/59, or even sometimes a Walther P38 or PPK, and you'd fire it to get those rough spots smoothed out against their adjoining components. This is not the case with the Kahr pistol (or its design). With some few exceptions, the machine work on the Kahr is damn near faultless. It does not have rough spots to wear in. It does have a really tight recoil spring and precious little overtravel of the slide past the cartridge pickup point.

They gotta make that spring tight on purpose, knowing its gonna "become" the spring they'd like it to be after some use.

How much use? Depends on ammo, shooter, environment to some degree....

The extractor is a funny item. Ideally it should "just fit" against the extraction groove of the cartridge. But, cartridges vary. Yep. So they gotta give a little overtravel to that extractor, just in case you encounter a smallish cartridge case. What that means is... when you got a "full figure" (ahem) cartridge case, the case itself is forcing the extractor outward a bit - against its spring pressure. Manufacturing tolerance is such that its possible that a little tweaking may be needed on some extractor/slide combinations, because that over travel, in .001's of an inch, is something that could cause problems, but thankfully, usually not.

My old pal "Handy" Andy used to say - "Gun makers make their chambers on the big side, lest some ammo doesn't fit. They'd blame the folks who made the guns. Ammo makers make their ammo on the small side, lest it doesn't work in some gun. They'd blame the folks who made the ammo." And his is correct in "most cases" we see in the firearms trade.

However..... Kahr is noted for a chamber that is on the tighter side of spec. Great for accuracy! Sometimes though, you get some ammo that may be a snug fit, or deflect that extractor a bit. Once things get limbered up, the extractor deflects more easily.

And finally... the Kahr barrels are nickel plated. Thats good! It prevents galling of the parts to a great degree. It provides corrosion resistance too. But, it can be a bugger with build up, and with flaking. Expect it to flake from the inside of the bore, and the chamber, and the feed ramp. My much shot PM45 and both my old (stolen) and new PM9 have flaking in the bore and chamber. No big deal, but... it may interfere with feeding until its all smoothed out. The PM45 is really smooth, I don't think there's much, or any, nickel left inside the bore or chamber. It had been fired 1000's of times when I got it used, and I've put my own share of slugs down the spout as well. A very limber, nice to shoot gun it is.

And finally, when the pistol is running right, those empty cases will fly sideways, not back at you. Sayin' that just in case (no pun) you have a problem with that.

And thats my story and I'm stickin' to it!

[b4uqzme]

^^^ I suspect Justin is paying his house payment just fine. If we aren't patient enough to weather the break-in, that's our loss.

[CJB]

You mean his "latest" house payment, no doubt!

[OvalNut]

...

Usually when I go to the range the carry guns are shot first. I don't do anything to prep them, just shoot them the way they been carried since the last trip. Use the ammo in the carry mags.
Then shoot practice ammo and reload with good stuff for the ride home and the forthcoming cleaning.

...


Exactly this.


Tim