Rotating magazine ammo?

[allthumbsplusone]

Having gone to every day carry I am now loading and unloading my gun more than usual. I am finding that the bullets keep seating deeper with every time through the action. Any advice?

[berettabone]

Yeah, quit loading and unloading. I keep mine loaded 24/7 and don't experience any set back....................................

[zredwire]

Not sure how much you load and unload your gun. I unload mine about once a week. As soon as I see any setback with the bullet I replace it. Some bullets will start setting deeper the second time you chamber them. If so I would replace that round every time you re-chambered. For me it means replacing one to two bullets a month. I know a guy that goes through about 5 a month because of this.

[Bawanna]

I usually only unload to clean or switch carry guns.

If I see signs of setback (different brands vary) I just empty the magazine and put that round at the bottom, provided of course it's not set back a lot.

I used to swap magazines about once a month but finally accepted the fact that it probably doesn't make much difference, except it did provide a good opportunity to inspect the ammo and replace questionable stuff.

[b4uqzme]

Yeah, quit loading and unloading. I keep mine loaded 24/7 and don't experience any set back....................................

+1. Put it in the nightstand...or the bedside safe. Then take it to the range and shoot your carry mag once in awhile. Then give it a good cleaning and reload. ==> no set back issues.

[wyntrout]

My guns are ready to go... loaded... unless they're dirty from the range, or not generally used except for the range. I don't unload them except for the range and cleaning. I do try to keep from chambering the same round over and over, inspecting them and changing position of the top round in the magazines.

[OvalNut]

+1. Put it in the nightstand...or the bedside safe. Then take it to the range and shoot your carry mag once in awhile. Then give it a good cleaning and reload. ==> no set back issues.

Exactly this. Mine never leaves my holster unless I draw it to shoot, or empty it to clean it.

When I go to the range I just shoot my carry mag then continue with other range fodder mags. It keeps me current on how my carry ammo shoots, and reconfirms that it cycles well. Before I leave the range I reload my carry mag with fresh HSTs, because it IS my carry gun. Then when I get ready to clean it at home later, I drop the mag, eject the chambered round, then clean it.

After it is clean, I insert the carry mag and chamber a round, drop the mag and top it off with the previously chambered and ejected round which has been cycled just that 1 time. Then I reinsert the mag so that I am carrying a full mag +1 in the chamber. Then the gun is holstered and put on my hip or in my safe. The next time that gun is removed from the holster it will be fired, first using the carry ammo with which it is currently loaded.

It's a routine that works reliably. It is a touch more expensive to always shoot a carry mag of HSTs on every range trip, yet I see the value in doing so.

The key is that the gun and holster are a secure unit that always stay together.


http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac323/ovalnut12/PM9/20160311_234252.jpg


Be well,


Tim

[dustnchips]

I dry fire often so when I reload the chamber I drop the round in the chamber and release the slide lock and reinsert the mag. I have checked after many rounds of this with a micrometer and found no set back.

[SteveOak]

Like b4uqzme and OvalNut I shoot my carry ammo when I get to the range and then reload with fresh ammo when I am ready to leave.

[Bawanna]

I dry fire often so when I reload the chamber I drop the round in the chamber and release the slide lock and reinsert the mag. I have checked after many rounds of this with a micrometer and found no set back.

This can in some cases put a lot of strain on the extractor as it has to work it's way over the case rim rather than have the case slide up under the hook from the magazine. If it works for you with no issue stick with it.


"The key is that the gun and holster are a secure unit that always stay together."

I never leave a gun I'm not wearing in it's holster except my PM45 in the ankle rig. It stays together.
If I need to grab a gun off the dresser in a hurry I don't want the holster. I also think probably incorrectly that it gives the gun a chance to breath some. Probably not as important with kydex but more so with leather.

[erichard]

This can in some cases put a lot of strain on the extractor as it has to work it's way over the case rim rather than have the case slide up under the hook from the magazine. If it works for you with no issue stick with it.

Coincidentally, I was just trying dustnchips' method yesterday before this thread started, after having unloaded and loaded a few times trying to answer the disassembly thread. I always am reluctant to unload the chamber knowing that when I reload it, the bullet will suffer setback. Wouldn't be so bad except that I use the Lehigh XD bullets which are over a buck apiece. I try to shoot those as infrequently as possible. I now have a collection of XD's and XP's with setback, so I was tempted to insert the round straight into the chamber with the slide locked back. I was initially wondering about the stress/wear on the extractor, too. I know it does stress the extractor because the slide won't close to full battery unless it is slammed home with the release of the slide lock (because the rim hangs up on the extractor if the slide moves too slowly).

The question then becomes, how much do I save with respect to XD bullets vs. the need to prematurely retire the extractor one day, and just how long will it take to wear down the hard extractor with soft brass rims. It'll probably take a while, and the extractor costs about 11 XD bullets (and I have about that many with setback so far). So on a cost analysis basis, it might not be a bad plan depending on how expensive your ammo is. Lehigh, being the most expensive, may push me to using the method.

BTW, this is similar to the question of using steel cased ammo in your AR (or whatever). I originally swore I'd never use steel cased ammo, but when someone pointed out that you could save enough money using steel cased ammo that you could buy an entire basic AR with the savings after so many thousands of rounds, it suddenly made sense to use steel cased ammo, especially when you consider you don't need to buy an entire new AR to solve the wear from the hard steel case. Just install a new extractor. But even that may be exaggerated, because many report that their extractors look OK after thousands of rounds (having watched a number of youtube talking heads on the subject). In fact, the more respected experts I watch on youtube all use steel cased ammo in their AR's approximately 80% of their time at the range, which surprised me initially (until person after person confirmed their confidence in the steel cased bargain ammo). Bottom line, it made training cheap enough that they could actually do it, and that's what's key to getting good.

[Bawanna]

My fear on extractors isn't minimal wear over time, but sudden breakage at the most inopportune time possible. Me and Murphy have a very long and intimate relationship.

If I had an AK I might use steel case ammunition but nothing I own at present will ever see a steel case.
Your probably right, lots of folks use it. I'm cheap like everybody else but just not in my make up to use steel.

It's like messing with mother nature or something. Just me, your probably fine. I'm so so.

[wyntrout]

Manuals and brochures at Kahr.com:

http://www.kahr.com/Brochures-Manuals:

See the note below the images. I don't think that you would want your extractor to fail at an inopportune moment!

I keep my carry weapons loaded and all loaded pistols are in holsters or cases to cover the triggers. I don't have children about or visiting morons, so I can't see unloading and reloading every time I want to carry a pistol. I maintain pre-positioned pistols and magazines and those are in holsters, but ready to draw and fire. This is in addition to the P380 that stays on my hip or very close by around the house.

Wynn :)

[jonholl]

I just shoot the round in the chamber (147 HST) when going to the range if the pistol has a round in the chamber. I unload the magazine with the expensive HSTs, fire the round in the chamber with an empty magazine inserted, then proceed to shoot inexpensive range ammo. I just reload a magazine with the HSTs from before & with a fresh HST to fill the magazine if recharging the pistol. This works for me as I don't keep my CM9 with a loaded chamber unless I plan on carrying it.

[Bawanna]

Good post Wynn. I wasn't sure if Kahrs were specific about it or not, been awhile since I read a manual.
Some brands are far more fragile in the extractor department than others.

S&W's with the external extractors I think were far more forgiving but I still don't recommend loading the chamber.

Since most of us shoot several different brands and styles it's probably the safest practice to just avoid it with everything.

[Bawanna]

I just shoot the round in the chamber (147 HST) when going to the range if the pistol has a round in the chamber. I unload the magazine with the expensive HSTs, fire the round in the chamber with an empty magazine inserted, then proceed to shoot inexpensive range ammo. I just reload a magazine with the HSTs from before & with a fresh HST to fill the magazine if recharging the pistol. This works for me as I don't keep my CM9 with a loaded chamber unless I plan on carrying it.

This plan would work however I would at the very least shoot the gun as it's carried for that first round to make positive sure it will feed and chamber the next round without an boggles.
In some mindsets this plan is bad since often times when you look the elephant in the eye you'll do what your used to doing for practice at the range.
Hence, you'll draw and have the urge to dump the magazine and change bullets.

This is the same scenario where you see police officers in the old revolver days found shot with a pocket full of empty brass.
At the range they empty their cylinders into their hand so they don't have to bend over to pick up brass.

Hence the wise training (back in the old days) of forcefully pushing the ejector rod with the barrel pointed skyward and dumping the empties on the ground.

It's actually similar to dumping a magazine, many, myself included rarely empty a magazine and just eject it to the ground, but remove it by hand so it doesn't get dinged and save an old derelict the effort of picking it up, or forgetting about it and leaving it behind.

[erichard]

See the note below the images. I don't think that you would want your extractor to fail at an inopportune moment!

Wynn :)

Yes, hopefully not, but I wouldn't use steel case as defensive ammo, so when the SHTF and I have brass casings, it seems unlikely the soft brass is going to cause Mr Murphy to enter the room and break my extractor in the .001% of my overall shooting (famous last words, of course). Could it happen? Sure. Lots of things can happen. Just need to calculate the odds and figure the cost benefit risk ratio. These guys on youtube are shooting thousands (like 8000-10000) rounds and not seeing any damage to their extractor, much less a catastrophic failure, so am I, with my sub 3000 round use, likely to have catastrophic failure when using brass defense ammo even after having used steel cased range ammo? Just seems to be a very low probability. The other aspect of cost in terms of your safety when the SHTF is, just how good are you with your gun (present company excepted of course)??? If expensive ammo stunts your practice ability, then you're (not you per se) not as safe/accurate/fast as you would be had you practiced X times more with cheap steel cased ammo. That seems like a more sure bet than a freak break of the extractor in the average 3 shot defensive gun battle you hear about.

It's an issue worth considering. I will add there's another negative for steel cased ammo: from what these guys were saying, because the steel case doesn't expand as fast or far as brass cased, some blast from the chamber leaks backwards causing increased fouling and dirt. So cleaning is required more frequently. So that's a definitely a negative as well. I guess, question is, how expensive is your time?

As far as the manual, they are written from the gun builder's perspective and interests. Note all the stuff the lawyers have put in just that one segment posted. Do we follow all that advice? Not likely. They want an out if they are ever sued, and if you use a method that wears on the extractor rather than causing bullet setback, they are going to have higher warranty costs. So naturally it's in their interest for you to just put up with bullet setback (not their worry/cost regarding bullets, although the gun could I suppose suffer a KABOOM of the chamber due to bullet setback and overpressure build up). I think most of us read manuals in general with a jaundiced eye. Another example of this is as I wrote in the other thread, the customer service rep told me point blank to NEVER DISASSEMBLE THE SLIDE TO THE POINT YOU HAVE THE STRIKER OUT (and have the ability to clean out the striker channel of debris and gunk.) He quoted the manual, and he was correct that the manual said that. Do those in the know not occasionally clean out debris manually, beyond using the port provided for squirting it out? I think we do occasionally want to get brass shavings and carbon fouling and dried up oil scrubbed out of that channel when the port is likely to be insufficient. Was the guy an idiot to say that? Yes I think so.

[berettabone]

I have always checked my loaded ammo, and have NEVER experienced any setback issues. All different calibers and brands. Different firearms. I will also use nothing but brass cased ammo. My carry firearm is always loaded with one in the chamber. ALWAYS...............everything is the same every time........................never any changes means no surprise. With all of the chances we take in life, using better quality ammo is something that is not worth skimping on. I think steel cased ammo does cause premature wear in some firearms.

[Ken L]

When I notice a round has some setback, I pull the bullet a little bit with a kinetic puller and re-set the bullet when I'm reloading more and have the dies all set up. I have experienced no issues with these rounds.

I don't pull the bullet all the way out, just enough so I can reseat it to the correct OAL.

[erichard]

I have always checked my loaded ammo, and have NEVER experienced any setback issues. All different calibers and brands. Different firearms. I will also use nothing but brass cased ammo. My carry firearm is always loaded with one in the chamber. ALWAYS...............everything is the same every time........................never any changes means no surprise. With all of the chances we take in life, using better quality ammo is something that is not worth skimping on. I think steel cased ammo does cause premature wear in some firearms.

In a cw380? The steep feed ramp means the bullet hits it hard on the tip, and I universally get bullet setback. I use different ammo for range use, and then load the defensive ammo back in after practice, so the setback is cumulative on the defense ammo (speaking of the rechambered round only), which happens to cost 4-5X the cost of the range ammo. If you're like Muggsy was and use only FMJ, for range and defense purposes, I suppose you might not notice the incremental setback because you never replace the same rounds in after practice, only new ones. In a gun with a less steep feed ramp, you'd get less setback.

Skimping on range round quality or skimping on amount of practice ammo. Those are the choices. These instructors and reviewers on youtube choose not to skimp on the amount of practice they can do, and the quality doesn't impact their gun function apparently.

Question is, is it a myth or a fact. I'm sure it's a fact that steel is worse than brass, but question is, how much worse.

I recently bought Wolf Steel cased hollowpoint 62gr. .223 for about 23¢/round, shipped, not too different from 9mm brass cased cost. The brass cased .223 is a good 50% more expensive. That's a big difference. (To be fair, one problem with these rounds is they are bimetal and the steel in the tip is barred in many/most ranges. I shoot at a home range though.)

[erichard]

I know we're getting off topic here, and not to kidnap the thread, but in case anyone was wondering what I was watching recently, here are some of the videos regarding steel cased AR ammo:
Shooting Steel Cased Ammo In An AR-15, AK-47, & a Handgun Overview (HD) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojc-K7xQK5c)
The Truth About Wolf Ammo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZB3UfG960)
Steel Cased Ammunition (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx7dcpyzkKc)

I didn't use steel cased ammo until reviewing these kinds of reviews.

[kwh]

Thanks for the good info. I am very much a newbie when it comes to the AR.

[erichard]

Thanks for the good info. I am very much a newbie when it comes to the AR.

I'm learning as I go myself for the AR.

I bought a couple this year because Hilliary is serious about gun control, and all it would take is a fifth vote for the Left in the SCOTUS. If you read the Heller decision regarding Washington D.C.'s gun control laws (struck down), the dissenting opinion is 180 degrees away from Scalia's writing, meaning, in their minds, the "militia" is not intended to include individuals, but is rather a state entity. 4 people in the Supremes believe that already and Scalia is gone now. Get your mags while you still can. They will also attack via executive actions as Obama has done recently on small gunsmiths and taxing them out of a job. My guess is they will make buying ammo very difficult in an attempt to bypass the gun issue itself. Might not be constitutional, but it would take decades to get struck down if the Dems rule SCOTUS.

PS. if you try steel cased AR ammo, get the poly coated ones rather than the lacquer coated ones (and 55gr rather than 62gr to avoid steel tips if shooting at a public range and NO TULA branded ever!). They are more modern and supposedly get around the issue of the lacquer building up in your chamber, which can make the brass ammo get stuck when you switch to brass later. One of those guys also said to keep the chamber pretty clean before going back to brass because of the soot build up due to the steel case not expanding fully to seal off the chamber as the powder explodes. That is a known issue, but not one that permanently affects the gun since you can clean it out.

Also, for a little light reading, the Heller Decision by Scalia (actually fairly interesting):
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZO.html

[kwh]

Yes, I need more mags.
I read a little of the above Heller decision. A lot of words,but a good explanation.
I was interested if "militia" was defined. I have heard it argued that if the 2nd amendment was repealed for private individuals, there is nothing preventing groups of like minded people to form a perfectly legal militia and thus be able to legally arm themselves.

[OvalNut]

...
I was interested if "militia" was defined. I have heard it argued that if the 2nd amendment was repealed for private individuals, there is nothing preventing groups of like minded people to form a perfectly legal militia and thus be able to legally arm themselves.

Perhaps. Though even if you were a recognized member of a legal militia under that scenario, my question would be whether that extends you the right to bear concealed arms while out alone in public while conducting your daily business. If Hillary Clinton is elected, the Heller decision is in imminent jeopardy, and with it your right to personally bear arms in the conduct of your day to day activities.

Donald J. Trump for President 2016 !


Tim

[erichard]

Back to dustnchips method of dropping a round directly into the chamber as the slide is locked back, one cautionary thought came to mind as I was trying it yesterday is that fairly often I find the firing pin is extended beyond the breech face as the slide closes. This is peculiar to the kahr after you have disassembled and then reassembled it (sometimes) I think and can be corrected, but the point is, if there's a round in the chamber as you slam the slide home, does that firing pin set off the round in your chamber to your great surprise?! That would be quite the nasty surprise, and perhaps that's reason enough not to use this method, and as I now recall, that's why I was leaning against it yesterday...just forgot about earlier today.

If the pin is forward as the bullet is drawn forward and upward from the mag, the pin stops the bullet from sliding into the breech face and extractor, so no chance of a negligent discharge. That has happened frequently to me.

[jonholl]

This plan would work however I would at the very least shoot the gun as it's carried for that first round to make positive sure it will feed and chamber the next round without an boggles.
In some mindsets this plan is bad since often times when you look the elephant in the eye you'll do what your used to doing for practice at the range.
Hence, you'll draw and have the urge to dump the magazine and change bullets.

This is the same scenario where you see police officers in the old revolver days found shot with a pocket full of empty brass.
At the range they empty their cylinders into their hand so they don't have to bend over to pick up brass.

Hence the wise training (back in the old days) of forcefully pushing the ejector rod with the barrel pointed skyward and dumping the empties on the ground.

It's actually similar to dumping a magazine, many, myself included rarely empty a magazine and just eject it to the ground, but remove it by hand so it doesn't get dinged and save an old derelict the effort of picking it up, or forgetting about it and leaving it behind.

I probably didn't explain enough. I shoot my carry ammo (a couple of full magazines) 3/4 times a year, & I ran through a box after breaking the pistol in for reliability. I don't keep the CM9 charged all the time (I have other pistols), only if carrying it. Then I'll fire the HST in the chamber the next time I take it to the range, I don't chamber a SD round more than once.
Hopefully a better explanation.

[berettabone]

Wayyyyyyyyyyy too complicated.........................leave it loaded, problem solved. Some people just look for trouble when it isn't there.........................................