Sight replacement on PM9 - DIY or send to Kahr Arms?

[pist]

I'm considering replacing the sights on my PM9 with Williams Firesights. I am familiar with tritium sights, have used them, and am not considering them. So, thanks in advance for the advice, but sight selection is not what this is about.

My question has to do with the swapping of the sights. My PM9 is brand new, having been purchased only a few weeks ago (i.e. April 2017). Are the sights on these guns still super tight, like they were in years prior? I am definitely not entrusting my slide to a gunsmith. I'm just trying to decide if I should attempt the swap myself, or if I should send it to Kahr Arms. Can anyone advise?

I did send my K9 to Kahr Arms for a sight swap, but that was in the 1990s. They did a pretty good job, but there was some cosmetic damage to the rear sight and slide. Can anyone comment on their more recent experience here?

[Bawanna]

Not all gunsmiths are created equal. Some may in fact be better than the fella's at Kahr, many obviously are not near as good.

I don't know if the newer guns are still tight or not, I assume they are.

Sending to Kahr is the least risky option. Then again if you have the stuff and the desire and the patience what one man can do another can do.

I do know it's darn tough to install sights with zero cosmetic damage. Keeping it to a minimum is a success in my book.

[pist]

Thanks for the reply. I'm sure there are excellent gunsmiths in my area, but I have no idea who they are, and I'm not going to take anyone's word on it. I love the expression "what one man can do, another can do", but I don't have a sight tool or any particular training. If I knew the sights would budge, I'd buy a tool and give it a go, but I've been reading lots of horror stores about people who did that and failed, or who tried using a punch and also failed.

[Bawanna]

I think Kahr is your best option.

The best guy I ever knew for sights, appropriately called himself the Sightman. Didn't own a sight pusher tool, or if he did he never used it.

A good vise, a small hammer and some punches. He moved on us, not sure if he retired or not.
Did a lot of sight work for the department.

The sight tool is the ticket for getting old sights off, but I think it's often misused to install the new sights and that was the Sightmans theory as well.

[finpro]

Dovetailed sights are made to be removed and installed. It is not especially hard to replace the sights on a PM9. Put masking tape on the slide and lock it into a vice, unless you have a sight tool. Use non-marking punches of brass, aluminum or plastic and apply them to the base of the sight, not the upper portion. My secret sauce solution is to lubricate the dovetail. I like sharpening stone oil, but any penetrating oil will do or you can mix some hand dishwashing detergent, like Dawn, with water. Tilt the gun so that lubricant can get beneath the sight, which may or may not happen, and lubricate the dovetail in the direction the sight will move. Work from left to right to remove the sights and install them from right to left.
If a new sight will not go into the dovetail by hand about half way, you should sand the bottom of the sight. An easy way to do this is by placing sand paper on a very flat surface and rubbing the sight back and forth sideways, as it will enter the dovetail, to remove some material. Try it in the dovetail often until it will enter halfway. If not, continue sanding and try again. Eventually, it will fit and you should use the punch to finish. As a novice, you should use very fine grit of 1000 or higher. Go slowly and carefully, making sure the sight bottom is flat on the sand paper.
You should know where the sights should be set. The front sight, which is usually weaker, should be centered and the rear should be set wherever you have determined it should be to have the point of impact where you want it. I do not use thread locking compounds until I am sure the sights are aligned properly. When installed, rinse the sights with water or alcohol to remove the lubricant. I recommend shooting the gun before using the threadlocker. Once you determine the sights are set properly, you can consider some Loctite or something similar. While most use Loctite on the underside of the sights, I prefer to use it on the sides of the dovetail as I think it would be easier to remove later, if needed for adjustment or whatever.
If you think you will want to do this on other pistols, it might make sense to buy a sight pusher. I have one and use it when it fits. These make the process easier, but should be used with caution to avoid scarring the finish. Read the directions. Again, push on the sight bases within the dovetails, not the upper portions of the sights. Be especially careful with the weaker front sight. Make sure the tool part that pushes the sight is free to move the sight and not in line to touch the dovetail. Again, use the lubrication and installation process discussed above. Go slowly and check constantly. There will sometimes be a popping sound when the sight begins to move. This does not indicate a problem.
Others will likely have different opinions and you should consider them. This has always worked for me and I have never damaged anything. If this works for you, please let us know. If this does not work, just forget you ever heard of us. ;^D

[pist]

OK, thank you. I'm looking into sight pushers that might work well. The P500 Pro Universal Sight Tool looks promising, but at ~$270, it's pretty steep.

I'm a neurotic control freak with serious trust issues, so while I haven't ruled out sending it to Kahr, I'd really prefer to do it myself. It would also give me a little sense of accomplishment (as stupid as that may sound).

Do the dovetails get progressively tighter from right-to-left?

[Bawanna]

270 bucks is a lot for something you'll likely use one time.

You can do it following Finpro's directions. I do that nearly precisely although I've never heard of the soap trick.

I also if a lot has to be removed use a fine metal file to drag the sight base across. Then switch to fine paper when I know I'm close. With 1000 grit paper you'll be there for weeks if you have to remove much.
I use a good solid (really solid) vise. A very small hammer and if brass or plastic isn't working I carefully go to steel. Emphasis on the tape. Lots of it. Sometimes the steel just gets it moving.
A bit of tape on the sight base and all around of course and things should be fine.

I've also found that sometimes going half way by hand is too much, I go just a bit less, say between a 1/3rd and the half.

I'll know more soon, I have 42 sets to install on our Glock 21's. Powers that be think our night sights are due to expire and found something they like so going to switch. Beats sitting in front of this computer all day although not my favorite thing. Glocks are easy compared to Kahrs and I do have a pusher I use to remove. I install most of the way with punches and fine tune with the pusher.

[pist]

I'd use it more than once. I have two PM9s, a K9 with burned-out tritium sights, and a Glock.

There are some ~$50 sight tools that look very simple and seem like they'd work. I think I'm more comfortable using one of those than punches.

[Bawanna]

Just remember this. A sight pusher can be compared to a holster with a thumb strap. A poor fitting holster that needs a strap to keep the gun from falling out.
You can take a sight that doesn't fit (IE: it needs to be sanded) and make it fit which can be not a good thing.
I wish you good luck.

And lastly if you ding it up and it shows a few scars, at least they are your scars. Wear them with pride and chalk it up to a learning experience. As we get high miles on the odometer it seems we acquire more and more of those learning experiences.

[pist]

Thanks for the advice.

I think I'll do my wife's PM9 first! ;)

[gb6491]

I'm pretty much on board with what finpro wrote
Off:
I like to spray the dovetail with PB Blaster several hours before removing the sight.
Mount the slide securely in a rigid vise or clamp securely to a solid work surface.
I now eschew the use of a pusher for removing sights (except for tritium sights I going to reuse). I use brass punches. I also make drifts out of brass stock.
I use/make a punch/drift that fits close to the width of the dovetail. I also try to use a flat on the sight, as close to dovetail as possible, as my contact point for the punch/drift. Masking tape is used if I'm going to reuse the sight.
http://i56.tinypic.com/25t9clv.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/20h0vo4.jpg
Fit:
I test fit the new sight then remove material from it until I achieve a fit where I can push the new sight just under half way (sometimes less) into a tapered dovetail. For straight dovetails, I fit the sight to just get it started into the dovetail by hand
http://i56.tinypic.com/2uzxu7b.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/1z689jo.jpg
Install:
I finish the installation with a sight pusher (sometimes a nylon, bamboo, or brass punch covering the sight with masking tape)
http://i55.tinypic.com/20igs45.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/1z5tbiw.jpg

Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

Wish my sights showed up as well in person and yours do in your photo's.
Thought you had a little rust spot on your slide until it occurred to me it's a witness mark to show you where the old sight was sitting.

Have a fella here that every time I install sights he shows up with his dial caliper to make sure they are perfectly centered. I told him my eye was insured with Lloyds of London for 2.50 and anything happens to my eyes, it 2.50 cash money. Trust the eye.
Didn't help, still shows up with the caliper.

Also reminds me I need to find a couple slabs of Delrin or something to line my vise jaws.

I have some floating jaws with rubber liners that work very well, but not good for sight installs.
Solid is better.

[pist]

The witness mark is brilliant. Thank you. I probably would not have thought of that.

[finpro]

I'd use it more than once. I have two PM9s, a K9 with burned-out tritium sights, and a Glock.

There are some ~$50 sight tools that look very simple and seem like they'd work. I think I'm more comfortable using one of those than punches.

I have installed night sights about 15 times, mostly using a cheap sight pusher. Some of these were on Kahrs and Glocks which have very rectangular slides that accept positioning and tightening better, making it easier for using a sight pusher. (Only Glock's rear sight gets pushed, of course.) A $270 tool is likely better than a cheaper one, but a decent cheap one would do fine on these flat sided pistols. If you do get the super turbo all wheel drive model, please let us know where you live so we can come by and borrow it ;^D
Depending on how your wife feels about her PM9 and the state of your marriage, you may want to do hers last, after you have gotten really practiced and skillful. I would try the Glock first.

[Bawanna]

The witness mark is brilliant. Thank you. I probably would not have thought of that.

I generally place a piece of tape in front of the sight and put the witness mark on the tape.

I've marked the slide a couple times but in moving it around and wrestling with it, I usually wipe the mark off the slide. The tape seems to last and I can use a pencil or pen.

Actually looking at the photo's again I believe Gregs mark is on tape also, the tape doesn't show up to obvious but I can see the end near the sight channel.

[Texas48]

Dovetailed sights are made to be removed and installed. It is not especially hard to replace the sights on a PM9. Put masking tape on the slide and lock it into a vice, unless you have a sight tool. Use non-marking punches of brass, aluminum or plastic and apply them to the base of the sight, not the upper portion. My secret sauce solution is to lubricate the dovetail. I like sharpening stone oil, but any penetrating oil will do or you can mix some hand dishwashing detergent, like Dawn, with water. Tilt the gun so that lubricant can get beneath the sight, which may or may not happen, and lubricate the dovetail in the direction the sight will move. Work from left to right to remove the sights and install them from right to left.

If a new sight will not go into the dovetail by hand about half way, you should sand the bottom of the sight. An easy way to do this is by placing sand paper on a very flat surface and rubbing the sight back and forth sideways, as it will enter the dovetail, to remove some material. Try it in the dovetail often until it will enter halfway. If not, continue sanding and try again. Eventually, it will fit and you should use the punch to finish. As a novice, you should use very fine grit of 1000 or higher. Go slowly and carefully, making sure the sight bottom is flat on the sand paper.
You should know where the sights should be set. The front sight, which is usually weaker, should be centered and the rear should be set wherever you have determined it should be to have the point of impact where you want it. I do not use thread locking compounds until I am sure the sights are aligned properly. When installed, rinse the sights with water or alcohol to remove the lubricant. I recommend shooting the gun before using the threadlocker. Once you determine the sights are set properly, you can consider some Loctite or something similar. While most use Loctite on the underside of the sights, I prefer to use it on the sides of the dovetail as I think it would be easier to remove later, if needed for adjustment or whatever.
If you think you will want to do this on other pistols, it might make sense to buy a sight pusher. I have one and use it when it fits. These make the process easier, but should be used with caution to avoid scarring the finish. Read the directions. Again, push on the sight bases within the dovetails, not the upper portions of the sights. Be especially careful with the weaker front sight. Make sure the tool part that pushes the sight is free to move the sight and not in line to touch the dovetail. Again, use the lubrication and installation process discussed above. Go slowly and check constantly. There will sometimes be a popping sound when the sight begins to move. This does not indicate a problem.
Others will likely have different opinions and you should consider them. This has always worked for me and I have never damaged anything. If this works for you, please let us know. If this does not work, just forget you ever heard of us. ;^D

finpro gave solid recommendations. I have used Kroil Penetrating oil to lubricate the dovetail. Let the oil set for about an hour and I have used a sight pusher to get the originals off. They are press fit on according to Kahr. I have also used a flattened brass rod and a gunsmith hammer to adjust sights. Trick is too go slow, once they start to move they will come out.

[gb6491]

Yep, there's masking tape on that slide :)

I have two magnetic vice jaw pads made of aluminum that I use quite a bit. They originally had some thin rubber on them, but that was quickly replaced with leather (as in the photos above).
I also have some pads that are just cut pieces of 90 degree aluminum angle stock (sitting on top of the vise in this photo):
http://i46.tinypic.com/2niz6ev.jpg
I keep meaning to cut another pair and put leather on them, but never seem to get around to it.
Regards,
Greg

[pist]

I finally corrected the "DIJ" in the title to "DIY". I really should stop having wine for lunch.

And to answer my own question, yes the dovetail very clearly widens from left to right. I should have looked before asking, since now that I have, it's obvious to the naked eye.

I see some "universal sight tools" like this highly-rated one (https://amzn.com/B016R4DXJW) which would force you to push on the upper parts of the sights, since the pusher block is way too wide to fit in the dovetail. Of course, I'm avoiding that one.

[Ed M]

This one works great for doing Kahr sights.

https://www.amazon.com/Handgun-pusher-Universal-Standard-Blocks/dp/B0125M9LRS/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1494073682&sr=8-9&keywords=sight+pusher

I see one similar on Greg's bench...

Bought a piece of 1/8 x 3/4 x 48" aluminum bar stock at Home Depot, and cut a piece just smaller in width to the slide. I shim it up using brass shim stock to get the right height, and cover the blocks on either side of the slide with Bodyguard paint protective clear film. That stuff is self adhesive and thick enough to protect the firearm's finish without being too soft. A small piece cut to fit the sight protects it as well.

Clamped in a vise, this setup has never failed to easily push in/out any sight I've tried - except a CZ front sight. They slide out and in from the front. :smash:

I've done plenty of sight installations using this pusher - it's paid for itself MANY times over.

[Bawanna]

Yep, there's masking tape on that slide :)

I have two magnetic vice jaw pads made of aluminum that I use quite a bit. They originally had some thin rubber on them, but that was quickly replaced with leather (as in the photos above).
I also have some pads that are just cut pieces of 90 degree aluminum angle stock (sitting on top of the vise in this photo):
http://i46.tinypic.com/2niz6ev.jpg
I keep meaning to cut another pair and put leather on them, but never seem to get around to it.
Regards,
Greg

I love the anvil on your bench. Bet that's right handy from time to time. I have a couple chunks of axle, one about 2 1/2'' and the other maybe 1 3/4 or 2''. Pretty handy but your anvil is better.
I need to take a picture of my hammer. I used large until I watched the sight man work. I broke a tritium sight trying to install it and took it down to him. His first question was how big a hammer did I use. I saw his and said a lot bigger than that.
I registered on a Geiger Counter which probably explains why I am how I am.

[pist]

https://www.amazon.com/Handgun-pusher-Universal-Standard-Blocks/dp/B0125M9LRS/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1494073682&sr=8-9&keywords=sight+pusher
I see one similar on Greg's bench...


Thanks. Shortly after my last post, I happened to order the same one, with the additional block sets (https://amzn.com/B016PAJ8WE). I figured for $10 more, I'd be glad I did should I ever need them in the future.

I will post again to say how it went, although I have no idea when I will actually install the sights, since I'm now second-guessing my choice in sights. :p

[pist]

The front sight, which is usually weaker, should be centered and the rear should be set wherever you have determined it should be to have the point of impact where you want it. I do not use thread locking compounds until I am sure the sights are aligned properly. When installed, rinse the sights with water or alcohol to remove the lubricant. I recommend shooting the gun before using the threadlocker. Once you determine the sights are set properly, you can consider some Loctite or something similar. While most use Loctite on the underside of the sights, I prefer to use it on the sides of the dovetail as I think it would be easier to remove later, if needed for adjustment or whatever.

OK, I've got my sight pusher in hand, and my sights are on order.

I'm embarrassed to ask, but this does refer to adding Loctite with the sights installed, right? Just let it bleed into the dovetail? (As opposed to, say, marking where the rear sight is aligned, removing it, and installing it with Loctite already in place, re-aligning to the previous marking so the sight is in its proper location.) I didn't think the Loctite would be able to work its way in there.

It seems like I could just go ahead and use Loctite straight away with the front sight, as long as I don't take too long getting it centered.

And while I'm on a roll here, is blue Loctite sufficient? I don't want to use red Loctite now only to find that I'd need to use a hydraulic press later on to get the sights out again, should I ever want to.

The Williams FireSights rear sight for Kahr handguns does have a set screw, so there's that. I'm sort of expecting the rear sight to slide in alarmingly easily.

[gb6491]

I find dovetail sights most often need some fitting for installation. If I get a tight fit, I usually forgo using any Loctite.
If I do you use it, it's put on after I've verified that the sights are positioned correctly (read range trip). For this I use Loctite 609 and let it weep in.
Regards,
Greg

[finpro]

I recommend waiting until you are satisfied with your results before using Loctite, after shooting your PM9. For normal civilian carry, sights are not under great stress. I have stopped using Loctite under the sights and have been using it on the sides of the dovetails in order to make it easier to remove the Loctite to adjust or remove the sight later. Full disclosure: I am not very concerned about how a concealed handgun looks. What I suggest looks a bit sloppier, so you should consider this. When you are happy with your result, you can place Loctite under the sight, if you still want to do so. I like using grades of Loctite or substitutes which allow later adjustment.

[jg rider]

Hey Greg,
I seem to notice you're using felt pads as vise jaws. I didn't think there were many who knew about using them. But what do I know.
Anyway I've used some one piece 6"w x 12"l x 1/2" thick pads as jaws that wrapped around the bottom of my vises in case a piece slipped out of the jaws.

Question: I wore out my last piece of felt. If you're using the same, do you know where I can by some more. I'm again looking or 1/2" pieces

Thanks for reading this,
John

OOPS ! I just finished reading that you use leather pieces.
Sorry

[jg rider]

Yep, there's masking tape on that slide :)

I have two magnetic vice jaw pads made of aluminum that I use quite a bit. They originally had some thin rubber on them, but that was quickly replaced with leather (as in the photos above).
I also have some pads that are just cut pieces of 90 degree aluminum angle stock (sitting on top of the vise in this photo):
http://i46.tinypic.com/2niz6ev.jpg
I keep meaning to cut another pair and put leather on them, but never seem to get around to it.
Regards,
Greg

I noticed the sledge hammers, but where are the chisels ?

[KCAutoBob]

A small addition to an already great deal of excellent information- When I had a really tight front sight to remove, I waited until I got some brass key stock purchased online. I bought a foot of brass 1/4" and 1/2" key stock. Don't remember where, but there are companies who sell such stuff, and actually at reasonable prices. Google it, or whatever works for you. I used the 1/4" brass stock which has a square profile (from the end) and filed it, as necessary, to fit into the dovetail as neatly and tightly as possible against the base of the sight to prevent the wrong sort of movement when tapped with a hammer. Worked good for me.

[TXscooterguy]

A small addition to an already great deal of excellent information- When I had a really tight front sight to remove, I waited until I got some brass key stock purchased online. I bought a foot of brass 1/4" and 1/2" key stock. Don't remember where, but there are companies who sell such stuff, and actually at reasonable prices. Google it, or whatever works for you. I used the 1/4" brass stock which has a square profile (from the end) and filed it, as necessary, to fit into the dovetail as neatly and tightly as possible against the base of the sight to prevent the wrong sort of movement when tapped with a hammer. Worked good for me. I've used this tool with good results.

https://dawsonprecision.com/dawson-precision-sight-installation-tools/