Plunk test fail: CW380/ Fiocchi Shooting Dynamics

[tony k]

A little background on my pistol here:
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?30506-My-third-Kahr-is-on-the-way

In summary, I recently purchased a new CW380 and I have about 300 rounds through it. My last outing I had a couple failure to return to battery issues.

I kept the last 7 rounds of fiocchi shooting Dynamics ammo so that I wouldn't leave the range with an empty gun. This morning I did the plunk test on those 7 rounds, and 4 of them failed the test. I guess that indicates to me that my pistol has a short throat. No biggie. My CW45 also has a short throat, and that resolved itself after a few thousand rounds 😉.

My question is, how have you all dealt with short throat/tight chamber issues? Polish the leade? Shoot it till it resolves itself? Send it back to Kahr? (No!)

I'm gonna start reloading for it, so tailoring my range ammo to the pistol won't be a problem, but what have you all used for SD ammo? Based on Shootingthebull's tests, I'll likely try something with a Hornady xtp bullet.

What do you all think?

[Bawanna]

Or the Fiocchi is a bit long. Some passed. Other brands worked?

I do think some Kahrs have slightly tight chambers but there's a lot of questionable new ammo.

[Ikeo74]

A gun with a short throat can be easily corrected by changing ammo. Do not mess with the gun or bug Kahr about it. Just buy ammo that is more tapered. The taper will go farther into the throat and the problem will no longer exist. When reloading, pay special attention to the bullet shape you buy and load. I had the same problem reloading some Nosler 124 gr bullets for my XDs 9mm. I only had to load them a little shorter to get them to run 100%.

The XTP's should run without a problem because they are more tapered. Also try Speer Gold Dots. They should be OK on the plunk test.

[Ed M]

Tony - Were those Fiocchi rounds the Shooting Dynamics JHP? That round is loaded with an XTP copy bullet, and were intended to provide a lower cost option to their Extrema for practice purposes. My CW380 ate up a few hundred of those with no issues at all during it's break in and after. Cabela's had them on sale at one point for less than any other practice ammo, so I stocked up...

For carry ammo, I prefer nickle plated cases. Most of the self defense rounds using the XTP bullet use brass cases - Extrema being one exception. Besides the corrosion advantages, I feel the nickle cases are a tiny bit "slicker", and may help with feeding issues. JMHO.....

My current choice in a self defense round is Underwood's Xtreme Defender +P ammo. It's pricey, but works well in my CW380. Underwood uses Starline nickle plated brass cases and CCI primers, along with a low flash powder. Good stuff. They also sell a round loaded +P or non-+P using the XTP bullet and the good quality components. Fairly inexpensive too.

https://underwoodammo.com/shop/380-acp-p-90-grain-xtp-jacketed-hollow-point/

I test all my carry ammo (every round) using a Wilson gauge that is machined to SAAMI specs before I carry it in my weapon. Easier than doing the plunk test, and it only takes a few minutes to check a whole box. Measuring Underwood ammo with a digital caliper has proven to me that their loads are very consistent, spec wise. Really good quality control in my experience so far.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/811584/le-wilson-max-cartridge-gauge-380-acp

[tony k]

Or the Fiocchi is a bit long. Some passed. Other brands worked?

I do think some Kahrs have slightly tight chambers but there's a lot of questionable new ammo.

I figure the fiocchi is on the long side of within spec, and the cw380 throat is on the short side of within spec. The rounds I measured were between.936 and .943, with a good bit of full diameter bearing surface exposed. That's well within normal, but there's so much variation in ogive shape between different hollow point brands

[jtsmall]

I test all my carry ammo (every round) using a Wilson gauge that is machined to SAAMI specs before I carry it in my weapon. Easier than doing the plunk test, and it only takes a few minutes to check a whole box.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/811584/le-wilson-max-cartridge-gauge-380-acp

Great suggestion.

Having no prior issues with 9mm and .40 S&W I'm amazed at the issues I'm having with 380 Auto and my CW380.

What's even more curious no problems with the BodyGuard 380 or LCP II using the same range of 380 Auto.

As another post so eloquently stated, 'I smell a fish!'



Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

[Ed M]

As another post so eloquently stated, 'I smell a fish!

Something I've found interesting is that Fiocchi ammo is NOT made to SAAMI specs. Try to find otherwise on their website, or look on a box of Fiocchi ammo specifically looking for it to state that it complies with SAAMI specs.

Kahrs are made to SAAMI specs. Fiocchi is not made to SAAMI specs. Fiocchi USA is a member of SAAMI, but their ammo is made in Europe, or here using Italian components. It's a sneaky way around the SAAMI standard primarily used here.

If you smell a fish, you might want to check your doorstep......:2eek:

[joemsj51]

Ed M

Please name a couple other ammo options (cheaper ones) that use the nickle plated case? Your Underwood is mucho dinero per round
Thanks!

[Tilos]

I cannot understand why anyone would consider a gauge better for checking ammo than the actual gun barrel, especially for carry ammo.
Yea, it might be faster for batch testing, but plunk testing 6 or 7 rounds of carry ammo prior to filling a mag can't take much time.

Chambers can measure within the sammi spec and be at either end of the tolerance limit, whereas a gauge is what it is, within the tolerance limit, possibly the other tolerance limit.
Why I use the plunk test and don't own any "gauges".
:D
http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14801&stc=1

[Ed M]

Batch testing - check. (I reload)

Gauge sitting on my bench ready to go - check.

Unloading a bunch of guns, field stripping them, plunk testing each one - uhhhh, no.

Now if I had a "problem child", I might make an exception, but with my guns, if it passes the gauge test, it's gonna work in all of them.

And that's why I own a "gauge" - because it works for me. FWIW, I don't reload self defense ammo for the legal aspect of it, but that's a different can of worms.

[Ed M]

Ed M

Please name a couple other ammo options (cheaper ones) that use the nickle plated case? Your Underwood is mucho dinero per round
Thanks!

I've never encountered inexpensive range ammo that uses good nickle casings.

The Underwood ammo in the link I posted above is actually pretty cheap for self defense ammo. Tough to beat $15.50 per box of 20, especially considering the quality of the components, and the consisitent overall quality of the product, in my experience.

I don't burn through a lot of self defense ammo at the range. Just the typical replacement after carrying it for a while, or testing a new carry weapon. Underwood e-mails me free shipping coupons all the time for $100 or more worth of ammo purchased. Since I only use Underwood ammo in my 380s , that lasts a long time. I use Federal HST 147 gr in my 9mm carry guns, and Target Sports USA has good prices on that....

[Bawanna]

I don't carry reloaded ammo for the same reason but I do save nickel cases and reload them with the better bullets. They are just in case I run out of store bought, "the guy at the counter told me to carry this stuff" ammo. Not likely I'll run out but I was a boy scout too many years to not be prepared.

Brass cases are for bulk practice type stuff.

I also have a case gage but seldom use it. I do the plunk test for a few rounds of each batch and call it good to go.

[joemsj51]

I've never encountered inexpensive range ammo that uses good nickle casings.

The Underwood ammo in the link I posted above is actually pretty cheap for self defense ammo. Tough to beat $15.50 per box of 20, especially considering the quality of the components, and the consisitent overall quality of the product, in my experience.

I don't burn through a lot of self defense ammo at the range. Just the typical replacement after carrying it for a while, or testing a new carry weapon. Underwood e-mails me free shipping coupons all the time for $100 or more worth of ammo purchased. Since I only use Underwood ammo in my 380s , that lasts a long time. I use Federal HST 147 gr in my 9mm carry guns, and Target Sports USA has good prices on that....

So you aren't naming any other nickel casings you've tried in your Kahr?
BTW.... I have "other" issues with Lehigh / Underwood, dating back to muzzleloader bullets.

[Ed M]

Off the top of my head:

Winchester, Federal, Hornady, Fiocchi Extrema, Speer, Sig Sauer, Remington. All worked fine.

Actually, the only ammo I've ever tried that didn't work perfectly in my CW380 was Perfecta from Walmart. I don't worry about that, as I rarely even see that stuff in stock at my local Walmarts in 380.

Occasionally, they do have Perfecta in 9mm, and I buy it when they do. It works great in all my 9's, including my Kahrs. Really like it, as it burns clean, and seems like it's a fairly stout load.

I run 45 cal XTP's in my Savage 10ML2 muzzleloader with special sabots. Been so long since I had to buy the sabots that I forget who makes them. Just checked - they're made by MMP.

[Tilos]

FWIW, I don't reload self defense ammo for the legal aspect of it, but that's a different can of worms.
And that's the can of worms we are discussing here, not reloads.
So do you plunk test the factory self defense ammo in the barrel of your carry gun:confused:
just askin'
;)

[Ed M]

So do you plunk test the factory self defense ammo in the barrel of your carry gun:confused:
just askin'
;)

If I had only one carry gun, I probably would. But since I have quite a few in each caliber I carry - no.

I test each carry round in a SAAMI standard sized gauge. If it passes that test, I've found it will function in all of my guns. None of them has shown to be especially sensitive to slightly out of spec rounds.

Basically, I'm just looking for rounds that may be significantly out of spec - and yes, I've found some. I send those through a Lee bulge buster die setup to see if they will then pass the gauge test. Sometimes, the case rim is just a little large, and that usually takes care of it. That's something that a plunk test in a barrel wouldn't show, since it's not going deep enough to make that apparent.

[berettabone]

I ran in to this issue 6+ years ago, when shooting my MK. I was using different ammo selections, including Fiocchi 115 gr. and was having a few FTF's and FTE's. When I got home from the range, I put a few different bullets on the table, and the Fiocchi was substantially longer than the others. I quit using the ammo, and haven't had a problem since. I didn't mind because it seemed excessively dirty. It's always worked in my other firearms of different calibers. I never did a "plunk test". In my case, the ammo was occasionally getting caught underneath the feed ramp. I attributed this to the excess length, and the lower power.

[Tilos]

I found this article about the plunk test to be informative/interesting:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/reloading-tips-the-plunk-test/

where it says:
"A case gauge can be very useful, but the best reloading device for the plunk test is your pistol’s barrel because that’s what you’ll be shooting your ammunition from, not the case gauge."
Another good read about reloading basics:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_tips_for_semiauto_pistol_reloading_0502 11/

;)

[DM123]

And that's the can of worms we are discussing here, not reloads.
So do you plunk test the factory self defense ammo in the barrel of your carry gun:confused:
just askin'
;)

I have seen mentioned using, or not using reloaded ammo for self defense for years. I have not been able to find any reason not to other than internet posts, believed by some to be an internet myth. Do you have any documented proof that using reloads has been used in a court of law?

I have recently started using my reloads as carry ammo. I now get 99%+ reliability loaded for a specific gun. I have not gotten this with store bought, defensive ammo.

If this is to out-of-line with the string of posts, let me know and I will start a new thread. Or just send me a PM.

[Ed M]

Yet another can of worms....

The reason I only use factory self defense ammo is that the lawyer that would be defending me in court advised me not to use reloads.

He said it may complicate things to have to assemble more "expert witnesses", have ballistic tests done, etc. It allows a prosecutor more potential avenues to assemble his/her case against you. This applies to civil lawsuits as well as criminal prosecution.

In the case of factory self defense rounds, the testing has already been largely documented already. Say you use Hornady ammo - they only need to bring in one expert witness from Hornady that already has documentation on their ammo. Less time/expense/risk for YOU. This lawyer is also a CCW permit holder, and had a Springfield 45 in his hip holster as he explained his answer to my question. It was his opinion and advice he was offering, but the decision is purely mine.

We carry to protect our life and liberty. Anything I can do to maximize my chances of retaining them is something I want to do. Obviously, the choice is yours.

[King Rat]

Ditto on the Perfecta in 9mm. It has become my go to ammo for 9mm. I can get a thousand rounds shipped to door for $189. from Lax ammo. I shoot Fiocchi out of other 380 with no problem. Love the Extrema. For me, I find it to be a very clean ammo. I have not tried to shoot it out of the Kahr yet. Will do a little measuring. The Kahr did NOT feed the Fiocchi Linea.

[berettabone]

I tend to agree with the above, but the main reason I don't carry reloads is that I don't use reloads period. For carry, for practice, etc. It's a safety issue for me. I wouldn't even use them If I reloaded them myself. Can an issue arise from factory ammo? Sure, but I think you're odds of having a problem with reloads is more likely.

[Tilos]

I have seen mentioned using, or not using reloaded ammo for self defense for years. I have not been able to find any reason not to other than internet posts, believed by some to be an internet myth. Do you have any documented proof that using reloads has been used in a court of law?

I have recently started using my reloads as carry ammo. I now get 99%+ reliability loaded for a specific gun. I have not gotten this with store bought, defensive ammo.

If this is to out-of-line with the string of posts, let me know and I will start a new thread. Or just send me a PM.

The reason for the NRA's big push to buy their newest product...concealed carry "insurance"
you gotta wonder,
:)

[King Rat]

A little background on my pistol here:
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?30506-My-third-Kahr-is-on-the-way

In summary, I recently purchased a new CW380 and I have about 300 rounds through it. My last outing I had a couple failure to return to battery issues.

I kept the last 7 rounds of fiocchi shooting Dynamics ammo so that I wouldn't leave the range with an empty gun. This morning I did the plunk test on those 7 rounds, and 4 of them failed the test. I guess that indicates to me that my pistol has a short throat. No biggie. My CW45 also has a short throat, and that resolved itself after a few thousand rounds .

My question is, how have you all dealt with short throat/tight chamber issues? Polish the leade? Shoot it till it resolves itself? Send it back to Kahr? (No!)

I'm gonna start reloading for it, so tailoring my range ammo to the pistol won't be a problem, but what have you all used for SD ammo? Based on Shootingthebull's tests, I'll likely try something with a Hornady xtp bullet.

What do you all think?

I mentioned on another thread, which I can't find. Regardless, the Kahr does seem to have a short throat and Over all Length will be a factor in selecting. One factor but not all. On this forum it seems to be the general consensus that Fiocchi ammo will not function in the Kahr. And in the range ammo I tried, it simply would not function at all. HOWEVER, I measured the length of the cartridges to the Fiocchi EXTREMA, which was one of the Preferred choices from Ammo Quest. The Extrema is considerable shorter than the Fiocchi range ammo. I shot a full box yesterday and they ran great. I also shot a box of ARX and a Box of Hornady CD. All ran fine. However the best results for me, was the Extrema. I will shoot a few more boxes of this ammo and if all goes well, it will be my preferred CD for my Kahr.

[TheLastDaze]

if you handload for it make sure to sort your brass..... otherwise massive hangups with this thing, ask me how i know😎

[RustyIron]

On this forum it seems to be the general consensus that Fiocchi ammo will not function in the Kahr. And in the range ammo I tried, it simply would not function at all.

Uh, oh. I hope my Kahr doesn't read this. Now I'm curious, and will have to go see if the Fiocchi actually fits, or if it's just being rammed into the rifling. Regardless, it functions ok.

The only time I've run into this problem was with a Kimber, with one particular bullet weight from one particular manufacturer. The problem was consistent across different lots of ammo. I tried the ammo in all my 9mm's, and the only other one it didn't fit was an HK. The ammo would function ok, though. But in the Kimber it would choke.

[King Rat]

if you handload for it make sure to sort your brass..... otherwise massive hangups with this thing, ask me how i know

As I mentioned, Fiocchi "Extrema" functions great in my CW380. And I believe that it is the OAL is shorter compared to other Fiocchi ammo. If you say your reloads are hanging up the pistol, what do you think the problem is causing that?