CW380 Guide Rod--AGAIN!!

[boscobarbell]

After my previous ordeal with the guide rod sticking was solved by a bit of dremel work to the frame "pocket" for that part, I had an awesome range trip during which my pistol happily digested a few different defensive rounds, and seemed to particularly like Hornady CD. I was so happy that I immediately (i.e. without disassembling or cleaning) brought it to my LGS for night sights.

I picked it up today...the slide with its new sights were off the pistol in the box (as returned by the gunsmith who did the work). Wouldn't you know it, but neither I nor the LGS owner could put the damn thing back together. It was hanging up well before the point where the slide lock could be inserted. After a number of attempts, I tried to see the guide rod into that frame pocket and...sure enough...the guide rod wouldn't fit! And I don't mean it was just snug...it wouldn't go regardless of how much force I used.

Obviously, putting those rounds downrange were enough to warp/shift/otherwise close that aperture. I took it home and used my dremel again so it would seat properly, but I AM NOT a happy camper about this issue.

Man, I want to love Kahrs so badly, but I think about my long ownership of Glocks/Sigs/etc that don't require this level of TLC or repairs and wonder....

[topgun1953]

I don't have proof positive evidence, but I was thinking that my guide rod chewed up the frame where it seats after I fired a bunch of +P rounds. Did you happen to shoot any?

[Ikeo74]

Grease up the guide rod with a generous amount of Auto Chassis Grease. It works wonders on those small double springs.

[gb6491]

Once that guide rod is seated in the frame, I doubt it is causing any damage to the the area in question as the recoil springs are holding it in place (if the springs are installed correctly). Greasing up the guide rod as suggested by Ikeo74 certainly wouldn't hurt.
Correct spring installation, open end of spring towards the muzzle:
https://s3.postimg.org/5yrvdv5vn/image.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/nc25sq16n/)
Even if the recoil springs were weak, I doubt the slide is causing any deformation (though I might hedge my bet with heavy loads).
Seriously shortened springs might be another matter.:eek:
Recoil springs are cheap enough and should be considered consumables.

Still, after reading the following...


After my previous ordeal with the guide rod sticking was solved by a bit of dremel work to the frame "pocket" for that part, I had an awesome range trip during which my pistol happily digested a few different defensive rounds, and seemed to particularly like Hornady CD. I was so happy that I immediately (i.e. without disassembling or cleaning) brought it to my LGS for night sights.

I picked it up today...the slide with its new sights were off the pistol in the box (as returned by the gunsmith who did the work). Wouldn't you know it, but neither I nor the LGS owner could put the damn thing back together. It was hanging up well before the point where the slide lock could be inserted. After a number of attempts, I tried to see the guide rod into that frame pocket and...sure enough...the guide rod wouldn't fit! And I don't mean it was just snug...it wouldn't go regardless of how much force I used.

Obviously, putting those rounds downrange were enough to warp/shift/otherwise close that aperture. I took it home and used my dremel again so it would seat properly, but I AM NOT a happy camper about this issue.

Man, I want to love Kahrs so badly, but I think about my long ownership of Glocks/Sigs/etc that don't require this level of TLC or repairs and wonder....A

....might I suggest that the gunsmith did the deed while trying to reassemble the pistol.

Regards,
Greg

[boscobarbell]

I don't have proof positive evidence, but I was thinking that my guide rod chewed up the frame where it seats after I fired a bunch of +P rounds. Did you happen to shoot any?

No, no +P through it. The Underwood and Fiocchi rounds are a bit hot, though.

[boscobarbell]

....might I suggest that the gunsmith did the deed while trying to reassemble the pistol.

Regards,
Greg

Yes, the thought occurred to me, and I mentioned it to the LGS owner. I'm headed back there tomorrow to discuss what i found.

I wonder what on earth he could have done to make that occur...very curious.

[Ikeo74]

Better check those springs! It looks like 1 of them is in backwards and that would cause the exact problem you are having, They need to coil in opposite directions of each other. I think it is covered in the owners manual. When the springs are put in wrong they bind on each othar each time you fire a round. That would explane the damage that you are seeing to the guide rod and frame.

Edit: Maybe they are not put in wrong according to the manual they look OK. Owners manual here: See page 20: http://www.kahr.com/PDF/kahrmanual.pdf

[Ikeo74]

I edited my post, the springs may be OK. Provided a link to the owners manual see page 20. http://www.kahr.com/PDF/kahrmanual.pdf

[boscobarbell]

Okay...just double-checked the nested springs, and confirmed that they are coiling opposite directions, and that the open end points towards the muzzle. Also vigorously greased the guide rod and put Eezox on the springs.

Here's where the problem currently stands: with the dremel work done, I can now reassemble the pistol. However, I definitely feel a slight binding when I retract the slide, and if I do it slowly a very small part of the guide rod remains protruding (maybe an eighth of an inch). If I cycle it vigorously (and let the slide slam back) that tip disappears. Also, when I cycle it slowly the trigger does not feel the same. Hard to describe, but the trigger break sounds tinny, and it seems like there is a slight obstruction. When cycled vigorously, however, the trigger break feels like it did before this problem.

Again, I'm mystified.

Edited to add: Just took another look, and realized that, when cycled slowly, the slide does not return all the way forward (which accounts for the odd trigger break). So it's not the guide rod sticking you...its the slide not cycling all the way back. It is being obstructed somewhere, but an examination of the frame and slide didn't reveal any obvious flaws or obstructions.:mad:

[gb6491]

Okay...just double-checked the nested springs, and confirmed that they are coiling opposite directions, and that the open end points towards the muzzle. Also vigorously greased the guide rod and put Eezox on the springs.

Here's where the problem currently stands: with the dremel work done, I can now reassemble the pistol. However, I definitely feel a slight binding when I retract the slide, and if I do it slowly a very small part of the guide rod remains protruding (maybe an eighth of an inch). If I cycle it vigorously (and let the slide slam back) that tip disappears. Also, when I cycle it slowly the trigger does not feel the same. Hard to describe, but the trigger break sounds tinny, and it seems like there is a slight obstruction. When cycled vigorously, however, the trigger break feels like it did before this problem.

Again, I'm mystified.
My P380 does that if I cycle it slowly, but it's only because the slide isn't in full battery. When slowly cycling the slide (robbing it of momentum), it reaches a point where it doesn't travel any further by spring pressure; at that point a little push on the back of the slide will put it into battery. If the slide it out of battery when you pull the trigger it will feel different.
Regards,
Greg

[Ikeo74]

I am wondering if the gunsmith replaced 1 or both springs with a new spring. They just don't look like the inner spring is small enough to clear the outer spring without binding. If you get a new guide rod, get new springs too. Something about the springs just doesn't look right. It kind of looks like both springs are the same size. May be my imagination though.

[Ed M]

Greg - Is that the actual guide rod from your 380?

No offense, but it looks like an old stripped out screw. Those grooves can't be good for smooth operation.

My Lakeline guide rod has over 1000 rounds of use, and the only sign of use is a few shiny spots. Alfonse to the rescue......

[boscobarbell]

Those aren't mine...Greg provided that illustration to assist me.

[boscobarbell]

My P380 does that if I cycle it slowly, but it's only because the slide isn't in full battery. When slowly cycling the slide (robbing it of momentum), it reaches a point where it doesn't travel any further by spring pressure; at that point a little push on the back of the slide will put it into battery. If the slide it out of battery when you pull the trigger it will feel different.
Regards,
Greg

Okay, so maybe this isn't a fatal flaw. I'll take it out and see how it cycles when it actually goes bang. Weird that this either never happened before, or it happened without me noticing it.

[topgun1953]

I am wondering if the gunsmith replaced 1 or both springs with a new spring. They just don't look like the inner spring is small enough to clear the outer spring without binding. If you get a new guide rod, get new springs too. Something about the springs just doesn't look right. It kind of looks like both springs are the same size. May be my imagination though.

Those are Greg's springs. Bosco, I'll bet the smith had a tough time removing the slide because the damage probably occurred when you shot earlier.

i don't think you have anything to worry about. Mine has been fine after needing the xacto knife treatment twice. I also had Kahr look at it when they had the gun for a trigger bar issue. I have nearly 1000 rounds through it since the last trimming.

[boscobarbell]

Those are Greg's springs. Bosco, I'll bet the smith had a tough time removing the slide because the damage probably occurred when you shot earlier.

i don't think you have anything to worry about. Mine has been fine after needing the xacto knife treatment twice. I also had Kahr look at it when they had the gun for a trigger bar issue. I have nearly 1000 rounds through it since the last trimming.

Twice for you, too? Okay, that's encouraging.

The other weird thing is that, even with the trimming, my pistol won't accept the Lakeline SS guide rod any longer. I trimmed enough for it to accept the OEM rod, but the LL is just a bit bigger (it was a tight fit to begin with), and I was reticent to do too much trimming.

[Ed M]

Bosco - there's something not right about all this.

Here's my Lakeline guide rod with the original springs. Everything looks just like the day I put it in. When I take the guide rod and spring and insert it into it's "home" in the frame, I can wiggle the muzzle end of the assembly far enough to touch the front rails - with ease. There isn't a mark on the frame from the flanged end of the guide rod either.

This CW has 1180 rounds through it - all but 100 rounds on the Lakeline guide rod. I can reliably slingshot the first round in every time as well. Looking over all the areas where you'd expect to see wear, there's none! Guess the stars were all aligned just right in Worcester on the day it was made....

http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14836&stc=1

[gb6491]

Greg - Is that the actual guide rod from your 380?

No offense, but it looks like an old stripped out screw. Those grooves can't be good for smooth operation.

My Lakeline guide rod has over 1000 rounds of use, and the only sign of use is a few shiny spots. Alfonse to the rescue......
Yeah, that's from my P380. It certainly wasn't someone's finest effort, but it's not as rough to touch as it looks and the pistol works with fine it (so I kind of never think about it).
https://s24.postimg.org/niudn5flh/guide_rod.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/a1xf4a59t/)
Al's guide rods do look nice, especially in your photo, so I might spring for one at some point:)
Regards,
Greg

[boscobarbell]

Bosco - there's something not right about all this.

Here's my Lakeline guide rod with the original springs. Everything looks just like the day I put it in. When I take the guide rod and spring and insert it into it's "home" in the frame, I can wiggle the muzzle end of the assembly far enough to touch the front rails - with ease. There isn't a mark on the frame from the flanged end of the guide rod either.

This CW has 1180 rounds through it - all but 100 rounds on the Lakeline guide rod. I can reliably slingshot the first round in every time as well. Looking over all the areas where you'd expect to see wear, there's none! Guess the stars were all aligned just right in Worcester on the day it was made....

http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14836&stc=1

I wish I were so lucky. Regarding the Lakeline SS rod, even right out of the box it was a very, very tight fit, difficult to even seat against the barrel. Now it doesn't come close to fitting into the pocket in the frame.

I'm just amazed that the frame can deform so much with only 50 or so not-particularly-hot rounds. But I've been assured above that it can and does happen, so I'm not going to panic just yet.

This is my second attempt at being a CW380 owner, so I really hope it ends well.

[dsk]

The poly Kahrs are made using a very soft plastic, and I too have seen deformation in that area. I'm starting to think the issues I had with the slide getting stuck were due to the deformed frame (which I fixed using an X-Acto knife as well). The slide has nothing but the plastic flange inside the frame to impact against during recoil, and I bet the deformation will return in time. How many times I can trim it before there's nothing left to trim remains to be seen.

[boscobarbell]

If true--and I have no reason to doubt you--that is very disappointing. Like i've said a couple of times, I think my CW380 experiment is officially at an end.

Odd about the plastic deformation...are people seeing the same thing with, say, the CW9s or CW40s? You'd think with those hotter loads these problems would be even more apparent.

Another thing...is the Kahr polymer that fundamentally different from, say, HK's or Glock's or Walther's?


The poly Kahrs are made using a very soft plastic, and I too have seen deformation in that area. I'm starting to think the issues I had with the slide getting stuck were due to the deformed frame (which I fixed using an X-Acto knife as well). The slide has nothing but the plastic flange inside the frame to impact against during recoil, and I bet the deformation will return in time. How many times I can trim it before there's nothing left to trim remains to be seen.

[wyntrout]

Does the front sight screw fit flush enough to not cause problems? I don't have any "C" models, but I know that the front sight screws can be problematic if you don't know what you're doing.

[King Rat]

I owned four LCP's and shot the heck out of them. I ordered a stainless steel guide rod for one and the gun became a nightmare. It was alway's hard to put in and would make the gun unable to open for takedown. I called up the vendor and he resized it and did not have anymore problems. However, I wish I had just stuck with the OEM part. I also quite using Wolf or Gallaway recoil springs after using them at the beginning. I know too many owners that had problems with them and some guns resulting in frame cracks.
My LCP's alway's did so much better in the long run, by using stock OEM parts. I would alway's change out the recoil springs on a frequent basis. And I would just include the OEM guide rod as part of that maintenance. I am not a big believer in after market products. I now try and stick with what the Manufacturer's engineers designed for the gun. I notice that the Kahr store, sells a steel guide rod for the PM but not the CW380 and that is not the same size.
My Kahr is shooting 100% after 500 rds. so see no reason to start adding different parts at this point. My goal is to just do frequent replacement of recoil springs, guide rod and maybe every third Maintance schedule replace the striker guide rod.
I am even hesitant to install the Night sights, or let my Smith install them I will most like wait and get more rounds in. and then send the receiver up to Kahr and hold them responsible for any failures. Cost more, but then if something does go wrong, I know from the beginning it is the gun and not all the other aftermarket products that may have caused some minor adjustment in the cycling of the gun to cause a malfunction.

[Ed M]

King Rat - It's tough to fault your logic on aftermarket parts, but there is one flaw in it. Those 500+ flawless rounds out of your CW380 are courtesy of Wolff springs. Kahr OEM springs are made by Wolff.

I have no definitive proof, but I also heard that Kahr doesn't make their polymer frames in house - they're outsourced. IIRC, I read that somewhere on a Q&A section of Kahrs website.

Q. There is a chip in the metal guide rail of my polymer pistol. Is this normal?

A. This is a witness mark for the polymer frame manufacturer and is present by design.

I also have my doubts that the MIM parts Kahr uses in their guns are made in house as well. Same deal on the Lothar Walther barrels used in the Premium series. I see a pattern here. So in essence, you have a gun that was built using aftermarket parts. The difference is - Kahr put it together instead of the end user, and they stand behind it.

I look forward to the day that Kahr moves their entire production line down to Greeley so I can get a tour of their assembly line and see for myself. Maybe they won't let me see that though. That'd be a dead giveaway to me. I was told by Kahr employees that they DO plan on moving their production line down to PA in a year or so. Should be interesting...

[gb6491]

If true--and I have no reason to doubt you--that is very disappointing. Like i've said a couple of times, I think my CW380 experiment is officially at an end.

Odd about the plastic deformation...are people seeing the same thing with, say, the CW9s or CW40s? You'd think with those hotter loads these problems would be even more apparent.

Another thing...is the Kahr polymer that fundamentally different from, say, HK's or Glock's or Walther's?
I haven't seen any indications that the "poly" used in Kahr pistols is any "softer" than that used in the Glock, HK, CZ, Kel-Tec, EAA, DB, and S&W firearms I have that utilize poly in their frames. I certainly can't tell by feel, by pushing a fingernail into them, or looking at wear/usage marks. If someone can show me testing that proves otherwise I'm all for seeing it posted here. Otherwise, I'm of the opinion that anything suggesting otherwise is just that...an opinion. I wager that's how Internet myths begin.
Regards,
Greg

[boscobarbell]

I can tell you that I, too, certainly can't tell a difference by handling them. Polymer feels like polymer feels like polymer to me.

But don't you find it odd that people (like me) are required to deal with deformations in that poly frame, often multiple times in the same location? I've owned Glocks for 35 years and never once had to take a dremel to one. Granted, Glocks tend to be bigger per caliber vs. Kahrs, so maybe the Kahr tolerances are just less forgiving?

Beats me...I'm just struggling to understand it. And please bear in mind that I'm not Kahr bashing. After selling my first CW380 and vowing "never again," I so badly wanted one that worked (despite owning a rock-solid Pico and perfect-out-of-the-box RM380) that I bought a second one. And this is not to mention my MK9 and PM9. It is just frustrating beyond belief, and I'm really trying to wrap my head around it.


I haven't seen any indications that the "poly" used in Kahr pistols is any "softer" than that used in the Glock, HK, CZ, Kel-Tec, EAA, DB, and S&W firearms I have that utilize poly in their frames. I certainly can't tell by feel, by pushing a fingernail into them, or looking at wear/usage marks. If someone can show me testing that proves otherwise I'm all for seeing it posted here. Otherwise, I'm of the opinion that anything suggesting otherwise is just that...an opinion. I wager that's how Internet myths begin.
Regards,
Greg

[Ed M]

Something that may play a role in this is how you position the guide rod assembly on the "ledge" it sits on when you put the slide back together.

My CW380s don't seem particularly fussy about this, but my CM9 is VERY particular about placement. If I don't position the rear flange just right, it locks the whole thing up when I put the slide back on the frame. It can be a pain to get it apart again to reposition it. The slide just locks up, and I can't get it to move back far enough to put the slide stop in. Pushing down on the barrel hood while moving the slide works to free it up usually.

For all my Kahrs, I've found the best way to position the flange against the barrel "shelf" is to center the guide rod assembly side to side, and make sure it's level front to back in relation to the slide.

The flanged end of the guide rod assembly winds up offset on that shelf, and slightly above the shelf lip on my CM9. I think any other positioning other than that results in the flange having to reposition itself to slide into the guide rod pocket in the frame.

Maybe that's what is going on in your CW380, and might explain the "peening" on your frame pocket. Hope this makes sense...

[King Rat]

I can tell you that I, too, certainly can't tell a difference by handling them. Polymer feels like polymer feels like polymer to me.

But don't you find it odd that people (like me) are required to deal with deformations in that poly frame, often multiple times in the same location? I've owned Glocks for 35 years and never once had to take a dremel to one. Granted, Glocks tend to be bigger per caliber vs. Kahrs, so maybe the Kahr tolerances are just less forgiving?

Beats me...I'm just struggling to understand it. And please bear in mind that I'm not Kahr bashing. After selling my first CW380 and vowing "never again," I so badly wanted one that worked (despite owning a rock-solid Pico and perfect-out-of-the-box RM380) that I bought a second one. And this is not to mention my MK9 and PM9. It is just frustrating beyond belief, and I'm really trying to wrap my head around it.

Having owned 4 LCP's and shot them frequently, I later became very cautious about their Polymer frames, or should I say the cheap construction of the gun. I say this because over the years I had at least polymer grip cracks and split rail as shown in the photo below. I really love the way Beretta did the modular design and to Kahr's credit they provided steel inserts into the frame at stress points. Remington seems to have a very nice design in the all metal, (7075 aluminum) with a stainless steel receiver. All three designs appear to me to be quite superior for durability and the long haul. I have posted on another forum a number of different pictures of cracked frames with the LCP. Not to mention cheap take down pins that break, or walk out. One obvious proof of better quality in both the Kahr and the Pico is obvious when looking at their stainless steel receivers, especially the fact that they are so much more robust in build, which not only helps with recoil, but I would assume to aid in overall stress of the Pistol, Also the fact that proof in in the pudding, and these guns are rated and advertised for Plus P, or Hot ammo. I do hope future Kahr's do go modular down the road.
Look at the specs for the New Taurus Spectrum. Modular design, stainless steel receiver, they stole the idea of the fantastic take down of the Pico, which was a smart move. They cushioned up grip, gave it a wider trigger and is based on a good platform of the 738. Regardless, I doubt they will even come close to the quality of the Pico and the Kahr, and the Rm 380 is quickly becoming very popular, especially with the mild recoil as reported.

http://i.imgur.com/lVEKz2a.jpg

And now the steel inserts by Kahr at the stress points

http://i.imgur.com/2Wuy9GQ.jpg

Notice in this pic the steel inserts at the rear of the grip. This was a particular place of failure in the LCP grip.

http://i.imgur.com/moVl4xW.jpg?1

[Ed M]

As a new Pico owner, I have to admit that all the things that turned me off initially about the design have proven to really matter very little.

One thing that is kind of annoying is the lack of room for my trigger finger. I've got fairly thick fingers, and it becomes uncomfortable to shoot a lot of rounds at a range session. I'm not overly concerned about this though, as it's not something I'll do very often.

The strengths of the Pico I initially saw have proven even better than I thought. It's built like a little tank. The sights are wonderful! The modular construction allows you to take the entire action out in a snap to really clean it well. A quick spray of gun cleaner, a spritz of oil and wipedown, and it's good to go.

That takedown "pin" is just genius. So simple and easy to use. The magazines are built as good as they look, and they look like miniature versions of high end 1911 mags. I could do without that huge pinky extension though, as it makes concealing the gun more difficult, and I have no trouble with a 1 1/2 finger grip on it. It's a soft shooter.

I still think it's kinda ugly, but pretty is as pretty does, and the Pico does great! I'm left wondering why these guns aren't more popular. Bad press maybe? Bad first impression? Different ergonomics?

I still prefer my Kahr 380s, but the Pico is a lot closer competition than I'd have guessed. That awesome Kahr trigger, and resulting accuracy give it the edge for me.

[Ken L]

If true--and I have no reason to doubt you--that is very disappointing. Like i've said a couple of times, I think my CW380 experiment is officially at an end.

Odd about the plastic deformation...are people seeing the same thing with, say, the CW9s or CW40s? You'd think with those hotter loads these problems would be even more apparent.

Another thing...is the Kahr polymer that fundamentally different from, say, HK's or Glock's or Walther's?

Just wanted to get an answer in here for you, sorry it's late. I have a CW40, and I shoot the heck out of it. Several thousand rounds thru it thus far, and no deformation of the plastic where the guide rod sits. Likely need a new recoil spring before long, but it just hasn't malfunctioned once I got thru the break in period and I profiled the extractor so that Fiocchi ammo will feed reliably.

[King Rat]

As a new Pico owner, I have to admit that all the things that turned me off initially about the design have proven to really matter very little.

One thing that is kind of annoying is the lack of room for my trigger finger. I've got fairly thick fingers, and it becomes uncomfortable to shoot a lot of rounds at a range session. I'm not overly concerned about this though, as it's not something I'll do very often.

The strengths of the Pico I initially saw have proven even better than I thought. It's built like a little tank. The sights are wonderful! The modular construction allows you to take the entire action out in a snap to really clean it well. A quick spray of gun cleaner, a spritz of oil and wipedown, and it's good to go.

That takedown "pin" is just genius. So simple and easy to use. The magazines are built as good as they look, and they look like miniature versions of high end 1911 mags. I could do without that huge pinky extension though, as it makes concealing the gun more difficult, and I have no trouble with a 1 1/2 finger grip on it. It's a soft shooter.

I still think it's kinda ugly, but pretty is as pretty does, and the Pico does great! I'm left wondering why these guns aren't more popular. Bad press maybe? Bad first impression? Different ergonomics?

I still prefer my Kahr 380s, but the Pico is a lot closer competition than I'd have guessed. That awesome Kahr trigger, and resulting accuracy give it the edge for me.

Yes, they are a cut above the Mass market guns for sure. I have become very bias toward the Pico and actually love the trigger and handling. But that is just me. I love looking and holding both guns. A real beauty in the design and quality of the guns. The Mass market of Pocket shooters will never know. I really do not care if they every find out either. I would hate to see Kahr and Beretta sell out to them. Beauty, the Pico looks like a Boberg to me, and I wish I had one. The Kahr reminds me of a Glock with a lot of special attention. I am sure James Bond would be proud to carry either one in his Tux as he orders a Martini, shaken not stirred!

[boscobarbell]

Does the front sight screw fit flush enough to not cause problems? I don't have any "C" models, but I know that the front sight screws can be problematic if you don't know what you're doing.

I wish I'd checked that before I sent it off. Frankly, I hope Kahr discovers that the fix is that simple. Fingers crossed.

[boscobarbell]

Something that may play a role in this is how you position the guide rod assembly on the "ledge" it sits on when you put the slide back together.



Thanks, Ed. I think I've been fairly meticulous about getting everything lined up correctly before reassembly (I own a PM9 and an MK9, so I know that this is a vital piece of the puzzle).

[boscobarbell]

1) The strengths of the Pico I initially saw have proven even better than I thought. It's built like a little tank. The sights are wonderful! The modular construction allows you to take the entire action out in a snap to really clean it well. A quick spray of gun cleaner, a spritz of oil and wipedown, and it's good to go.

That takedown "pin" is just genius. So simple and easy to use. The magazines are built as good as they look, and they look like miniature versions of high end 1911 mags. I could do without that huge pinky extension though, as it makes concealing the gun more difficult, and I have no trouble with a 1 1/2 finger grip on it. It's a soft shooter.

2) I still think it's kinda ugly, but pretty is as pretty does, and the Pico does great! I'm left wondering why these guns aren't more popular. Bad press maybe? Bad first impression? Different ergonomics?

3) I still prefer my Kahr 380s, but the Pico is a lot closer competition than I'd have guessed. That awesome Kahr trigger, and resulting accuracy give it the edge for me.

1) I agree completely. I bought the Pico on a lark (looking for .380s with night sight capability, saw one cheap on gunbroker), and had previously dismissed it as a little weird looking...reading the initial reviews didn't help. Now I can't believe what i'd been missing. As you said, ingenious little design, beautiful and beautifully made.

2) The Gen 1 and Gen 2 Picos had issues. Tough to work the slide, bad trigger, all sorts of malfunctions. But Beretta stuck with it, to their credit, and now you have a pistol with easy ergonomics and a much better record for reliability. There seems to be some nagging issues with the trigger (like mine) and the firing pin (brittle), but overall it has become the pistol it should have been from the beginning. It still may not be a gun for the masses, with it's tiny grip and manageable but stiff actions...but I think experienced shooters should be giving the Pico a chance if they're looking for a .380.

3) Yeah...that trigger is sublime. You wonder why other manufacturers can't just mimic it. It's what has kept me married to my CW380 when I maybe should have filed for divorce a while ago. It's like that girl you KNOW is nothing but trouble, but every time she walks by in jeans....

[dsk]

3) Yeah...that trigger is sublime. You wonder why other manufacturers can't just mimic it. It's what has kept me married to my CW380 when I maybe should have filed for divorce a while ago. It's like that girl you KNOW is nothing but trouble, but every time she walks by in jeans....

I hear ya. I've put up with more crap from my P380 the past few years than I have from my wife, and that's saying something.

[Bawanna]

I don't believe that. No gun manufactured ever could dish out as much crap as a wife.......I think your exagerating. Guess I don't know how to spell exagerating......I did real good in grammar school in spelling bee's too.

[Ikeo74]

I posted this many years ago: Kahr could save everyone a lot of trouble and expense by pre-stressing the recoil springs (and the mag springs) on these small guns. They could get a machine that could compress each spring about 500 time and it would eliminate the 200 round break-in. A machine could do thousands of springs per hour and save the company the cost of shipping the guns back to the factory for loading and ejection problems. As a bonus it would save every buyer the cost of 200 rounds of ammunition to preform the same service.

[b4uqzme]

I don't believe that. No gun manufactured ever could dish out as much crap as a wife.......I think your exagerating. Guess I don't know how to spell exagerating......I did real good in grammar school in spelling bee's too.


^^^ close but I think it's spelled with 7 or 8 X's... :rolleyes:

[Bawanna]

I posted this many years ago: Kahr could save everyone a lot of trouble and expense by pre-stressing the recoil springs (and the mag springs) on these small guns. They could get a machine that could compress each spring about 500 time and it would eliminate the 200 round break-in. A machine could do thousands of springs per hour and save the company the cost of shipping the guns back to the factory for loading and ejection problems. As a bonus it would save every buyer the cost of 200 rounds of ammunition to preform the same service.

Truth be told every gun should have a break in period, Kahr is one of the few that actually recommends it up front.
None of my Kahrs required the break in at all. K40, my PM45 shot 350 rounds out of the box in one range session.
I just shot my K9 for the first time Tuesday, after minimal clean and lube and it never balked.

I know this has been chewed and hashed about countless times. I don't carry a gun that hasn't fired at least 3 or 400 rounds without a failure, the count used to be much higher when ammo wasn't so expensive and I was a bit better off.
Lowered my standards some I guess, maybe I just don't care anymore?

[Ikeo74]

The problem is, I have had some guns for several years that still don't have 200 rounds through them. I guess I need to shoot more.

[King Rat]

I posted this many years ago: Kahr could save everyone a lot of trouble and expense by pre-stressing the recoil springs (and the mag springs) on these small guns. They could get a machine that could compress each spring about 500 time and it would eliminate the 200 round break-in. A machine could do thousands of springs per hour and save the company the cost of shipping the guns back to the factory for loading and ejection problems. As a bonus it would save every buyer the cost of 200 rounds of ammunition to preform the same service.

Both the Pico and the Kahr recommended a break in. Ok, so no big deal. I simple just racked the slide while watching TV. Then simple let the gun stay racked over night. I also loaded up each mag to the limit to set for a couple of days. When I first shoot the gun I only load up 5 rds in a 6 round mag and shoot it that way for a while. The Pico mags seemed really strong when I first got them. I felt for sure they would jam if I did not set them. Is my way the right way? Who knows. All I know is I have not had any failures with all three guns. Maybe just lucky, but it sure was not a big deal to break it in that way. Actually I do this with all my guns and Magazines.

[ripley16]

My Pico worked from day one, round one , without any "break in" routine. I don't recall seeing anything in the Beretta manual about a break in period for that matter. IMHO, the best way to prepare a pistol is to shoot it.

[topgun1953]

I thought the break in period involved the process of mating parts wearing in properly.

[Ikeo74]

The real question is, why is this necessary on Kahrs and NOT on almost all other makes of guns?

[Ed M]

I thought the break in period involved the process of mating parts wearing in properly.

That reminds me of the girl next door.......:w00t:

[dsk]

The real question is, why is this necessary on Kahrs and NOT on almost all other makes of guns?

Don't you own any 1911s? Many manufacturers fit theirs together ridiculously tight, then tell you that you need to break them in. Glocks don't need a break-in simply because they're fit together very loose, and also you won't find burrs or sharp edges inside one. My P380 needed a lot of fluffing and buffing when I first brought it home because the slide rails were quite rough and sharp. There was even a piece of metal slag inside the striker/extractor channel that had to be carefully removed with a needle file. I paid $650 for that gun and yet still had to do the final fitting and deburring of the components myself.

[boscobarbell]

I paid $650 for that gun and yet still had to do the final fitting and deburring of the components myself.

That's what I have trouble wrapping my head around, too. Maybe I've just been spoiled by years of Sigs, Glocks, and H&Ks?

[Armybrat]

That's what I have trouble wrapping my head around, too. Maybe I've just been spoiled by years of Sigs, Glocks, and H&Ks?

One would think Justin Moon has figured this out by now. Guess not, but nonetheless he should take a cue from the older manufacturers.

Quality control issues plagued Colt in the '80s & '90s, then Ruger & Remington in more recent years - much to the detriment of their historic reputations. Colt has emerged from those dark days, in spite of what you might read on the gun boards. It remains to be seen if the others will follow suit.

Kahr pistols have a great design for the most part (CW380 strikers & magazines excepted) and does not need to become another Taurus. That would be a shame, as I really like the three (PM9, CW45, CT380) I've bought so far and still intend to acquire at least one more (a CW9)

[finpro]

We may be expecting too much from very light and small Kahr .380s and CM and PM size pistols. Mechanical compromises must be made in small designs and this often comes at the cost of less reliability. This was well-known in the 1911 world which, for many decades, found that it was much harder to build reliable 1911 pattern pistols with barrels shorter than the 5" full-sized Government Model. Even the almost-identical Commander Models with 4.25" barrels had problems initially and some still consider them less reliable. Smaller 1911 style pistols with 3" or 3.5" barrels or in non-.45 ACP calibers had lots of problems and some still do, though they have gotten a lot better due to engineering changes. Much of this has to do with the shorter slide excursions of shorter barrel guns, which impacts the timing to extract fired cartridges and load new ones.
Kahrs use a brilliant 20+ year old design in tiny to smallish packages and are very light for their frame materials. (K9s are light for 3.5" barrel steel pistols and PM9s are light for 3" barrel polymer pistols by several ounces, for example.) Mechanically, you can do a lot with a few extra ounces or inches. While I like mine and would likely have bought the promised Gen2 version, like it or not, Kahrs are relatively slow-firing due to their long reset triggers and lack of grip size and are meant to be carried more than fired extensively. For most of us, I suspect this is more than adequate. Like some of yours, my Kahrs needed some factory R&R or, at least, some free factory parts delivered under warranty. Do I like this? No! Should they do better? Hell yes! However, in the real world, BMWs will likely need more maintenance than Toyotas and Kahrs may need more break-in than modern service pistols or derivatives. I am glad we have aftermarket parts to upgrade guns, though I wish it were not necessary. Be thankful we have Lakeline parts for Kahrs, Apex Tactical for Smith & Wessons and too many to mention for Glocks.
For those willing and able to break-in and work on their Kahrs, as may be required, there is usually a good payoff. As always, however, carry what works best for you within your practical life considerations.

[dsk]

BTW I checked out a Pico this weekend. Slide very difficult to retract due to stiffness and shallow cocking grooves, slide stop impossible to use due to being so flat and with no traction surface, slide will not drop unless you remove the magazine, and a trigger that stacks terribly before finally releasing. All a shame, because otherwise it looked to be very well-made, even better than a Kahr. Unfortunately between my P380 and Ruger LCP I think that's it for me and tiny pocket-sized .380s. At this point none of them really impress me, and they all seem to be built for carrying and not extended shooting. My LCP is reliable enough to depend on, and so far the Kahr seems to be redeeming itself since the last time I had an issue, but no way will I shoot any of these guns more than a box or two at a time anymore in case something else breaks on them. Just run a few mags through them once a year to make sure they're still working, then clean them and call it good. I'll do all of my mouse gun practice with my Glock 42 from now on, which is actually built for a lot of use.

[King Rat]

To bad you could not have spent more time with the Pico. Amazing how you can become proficient with something in a short amount of time. I have no problem at all now with the slide or using the slide stop. Very easy to lock the slide open with the thumb. Yes, the slide is stiff, and a small piece of grip tape on the slide goes a long way. It is also rated PLUS P so it has a heavy recoil spring. But again the gun is not for everyone. I have gotten to the point I do not even notice racking or releasing the slide. A woman may have a problem or someone with arthritis etc. or someone that just not shoot a pocket gun very often.

You must have had a bad gun, because You comment "the slide will not drop unless you remove the magazine" is simply not true. The mag release is also Very, very ease to have them slide out. Yes I will use two hands but with very little pressure and that sucker slides out like grease. However the gun is not meant for fast action shooting and changing out multiple mags quickly. I did not buy the gun for that.

I actually love the trigger on the Pico, not much difference to me in the stacking of the Kahr but a little stronger. The same with the LCP gen 2 but stronger. Somewhat like the trigger on the Ruger LCR, strong but buttery smooth. Hickcock45 commented a few times on the Pico, the quote. "I like that trigger"! You must be talking in comparison of the trigger. to the New LCP ll which I find horrible and unsafe to carry. You also need to shoot one. Mild.
You want to talk LCP's. I have been shooting them since they first came out. I have owned 4 of them. I I personally would not buy another LCP again.
A few weeks ago, I took the Pico, the Kahr and my LCP out the range. My LCP Gen 2 is in retirement and I no longer shoot it, and least not often. I put 100 rounds through the Pico and then and 100 rounds through the Khar. Both shot magnificently. Two mag of shooting the LCP and forget it, the high recoil was just so unpleasant it went back into retirement quick.

Pocket guns are not for everybody.

[King Rat]

Took Pico, Kahr and LCR9mm to ranges today. LCR ran great as always, Pico ran like a machine. Then the Kahr. I was using freedom munitions reloads which I had no problems with before, now I had problems. I had 5 light primer strikes, feeding issues and failures to extract. I have run about 500 rounds with no problems. I am hoping it is the ammo. It was a new box. I will not be using it again. However maybe it is the striker channel. I came home and blew it out really good. Looked closely at the striker pin and the extractor and they seem fine. Will take it to the range in a few days and use another ammo. I can see it will be another 500 rounds before I trust this gun. I will not try many Defense loads, hopefully it will just shoot Critical Defense, it it does, I will not even attempt another.

[boscobarbell]

Wow…sound like yours caught the same virus as mine! Very sorry to hear it. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that it was only an ammo issue.

Nice to hear about the Pico, though. Damn, that pistol really grows on you. Now that it's summer, I tend to carry my 380s more and more (whenever I wear track pants to the gym or shorts around town), usually in an IWB rig. (When I wear pants and a belt, it's almost always my Kahr PM9.) My choice most days has been my Pico, in part because repeated dry-firing (with a snap cap!!) has gotten me much more in tune with the somewhat odd ergonomics. My Remington has always naturally felt great in my hand, but the Pico now comes very close.

Neither, of course, comes close to the feel of the CW380, but since I've owned it that pistol has spent more time disassembled or, now, back at Kahr than it has in my hand or in my holster. Sigh….


Took Pico, Kahr and LCR9mm to ranges today. LCR ran great as always, Pico ran like a machine. Then the Kahr. I was using freedom munitions reloads which I had no problems with before, now I had problems. I had 5 light primer strikes, feeding issues and failures to extract. I have run about 500 rounds with no problems. I am hoping it is the ammo. It was a new box. I will not be using it again. However maybe it is the striker channel. I came home and blew it out really good. Looked closely at the striker pin and the extractor and they seem fine. Will take it to the range in a few days and use another ammo. I can see it will be another 500 rounds before I trust this gun. I will not try many Defense loads, hopefully it will just shoot Critical Defense, it it does, I will not even attempt another.

[King Rat]

I hope this pistol does not fail on me. I really like shooting it. I cleaned it today really well. I inspected the recoil spring closely. I have a spare set and if the gun fails again, I will put in the new one's. I do not like the way this gun has the inner and outer spring with both of them having the sharp flangs on each end. It just seems like a system that will make it prone for the inner spring to snag he outer. I need to figure out what is the best round nose to put in the gun. I will go on line and order about three or four different brands on top of the stuff I have now. If it fails, I will send it off to Kahr. If it fails when it is returned, I will sell it. I am not going to waste a lot of time with this gun. In the meantime, I need to focus on just being Optimistic.

[boscobarbell]

I don't think you can go wrong with the Hornady Critical Defense. That seems to be the consensus around her (maybe because that plug eliminates the sharp edges you get with some JHP?). If I repeated your ranged session and got the same results from CD, I'd be very worried.

After reading your post, I got to thinking about these micro-380s. Eliminating the SAO versions (don't train in that system, so I wouldn't carry them), what are we left with that offer high reliability and decent range performance? The Glock, which is the size of a micro-9mm. The Remington. The Pico (3rd Gen only).

What else is out there? The Kel Tec is a monster to shoot, and has crappy sights. The Seecamp has NO sights and feels like you're letting someone hit your palm with a hammer. The LCPs are strictly disposable. The Taurus TCP is no better than the LCP, and I'm not betting on the Spectrum being any better. The Guardian is too heavy and very unpleasant to shoot. What am I missing? Oh, yeah…the Bodyguard. Worst trigger of the group, horrible reliability, and the fact that it's the ugliest gun out there doesn't help.

Okay…rant over. Please tell me what I've missed so I can find my new gun…….


I hope this pistol does not fail on me. I really like shooting it. I cleaned it today really well. I inspected the recoil spring closely. I have a spare set and if the gun fails again, I will put in the new one's. I do not like the way this gun has the inner and outer spring with both of them having the sharp flangs on each end. It just seems like a system that will make it prone for the inner spring to snag he outer. I need to figure out what is the best round nose to put in the gun. I will go on line and order about three or four different brands on top of the stuff I have now. If it fails, I will send it off to Kahr. If it fails when it is returned, I will sell it. I am not going to waste a lot of time with this gun. In the meantime, I need to focus on just being Optimistic.

[King Rat]

As you know, the Pico is for me, everything I could ask for. Especially since I love pocket gun shooting. I knew this almost immediately and that is why not shortly after shooting the gun for 500 rounds, I ordered a second one. And face it. No matter what most folks think, you, or at least myself will be carrying a pocket pistol a whole lot of times. If nothing else, as a backup gun. I wanted the perfect gun, A carry gun should be totally reliable, meet all your criteria for concealment, trigger, sights, etc.
And like I said, i will give the Kahr a little rope for me to try and get it working right, but I will sell or trade it in a heart beat if this takes more effort and money, and my time. I see these problems seem more of the norm then exceptions. Piss on Kahr for not standing up to the plate and fixing all issues or just not sell the gun.
I am thinking about filing down the extractor. From the video, this makes sense. And like the guy in the video, you should not have to be so choosy in Ammo selection. The Pico so far eats anything. Even my LCP which is now retired, (owned 4 of them) would eat most anything as well.
The Kahr has a lot going for it. A very Accurate gun. Yesterday when it did shoot, I placed a perfect Bulls eye at 10 yds with the ARX ammo. Other shots were very close groups.
I will fire down the extractor in the next few weeks. A new one is $15.00 and maybe I can even get Kahr to spring for it. Or maybe just send the gun in and tell them to file the damn thing or just get it right. Time is money and I do not want to be standing around the range with my hands in my pocket because a my gun is jamming like a freeway on Friday afternoon.
Here is the video, I am sure you have seen it before. I wonder if Kahr smiths file some of these down when sent in? I guess I might roll the dice and send in my Night Sights to allow them to be installed as well. I will ask them to not send the gun back until it is fixed. The gun is broken in and should at least fire 70% of the ammo out there. Right now, I feel this is total BS. Get the damn gun right.

I wonder if I could trade it in for A CM9 and pay the difference?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwrBbUQze2k&feature=youtu.be

[topgun1953]

King rat, if you haven't already, you should file a few thousands off of the rear extractor pin. This will loosen the extractor some which in turn will improve feeding. If you like to tinker, make the mod, but if it still doesn't work, send it to Kahr. You have nothing to lose. I have a p380 which I bought for carry, but when I found I was carrying it IWB most of the time, I figured a slightly larger 9mm was the way to go. As it turns out, I bought a P938, and currently carry it most of the time. One of these days, I guess I'll get a cm9, but for now my carry options are covered. 😀 So, you might find a cm9 is the way to go if you can't get your cw worked out. It can still fit in most pockets.

[gb6491]

It's nice to see some of you folks are having positive experiences with Beretta's Pico. I had it's bigger sibling the Nano. I liked it, but it wasn't reliable. Per the Beretta forum during that time, mine wasn't the only one. Beretta's response and that of a big name Beretta shill soured me on the gun. I had close to 900 rounds through that pistol, when the shop I bought it from bought it back from me. They were going to send it out to one of the smiths/shops Beretta was using as service centers, but I never heard the outcome of that.

Anyway, as King Rat is contemplating filing on an extractor, might I suggest a read of the sticky at the top of this forum titled "Found solution to FTF and failure to return to battery on CW 380 (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?26232-Found-solution-to-FTF-and-failure-to-return-to-battery-on-CW-380)". It suggests filing of the extractor as well, but it is done on a less critical area of the extractor.

FWIW, I also think topgun 1953's suggestion is a viable option.

Regards,
Greg

[dsk]

You must have had a bad gun, because You comment "the slide will not drop unless you remove the magazine" is simply not true.

I could not get the Pico's slide stop to release the slide with the magazine in place, and neither could the salesman. It could have simply been "new and stiff" syndrome like many of these pocket guns have. Sorry to hear you're now back to having problems with your Kahr, but now you can see what I've been dealing with the past four years. Just as the gun starts running 100% for awhile and you think it's finally good to go, the very next range trip it takes a huge dump and you're back to square one, debugging and testing it all over again. The only bright news in this whole saga is that at least I'm getting really good at shooting tiny little .380 pistols.

[Ed M]

…the Bodyguard. Worst trigger of the group, horrible reliability, and the fact that it's the ugliest gun out there doesn't help.



Probably not.....

http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14867&stc=1http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14868&stc=1http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14869&stc=1

[boscobarbell]

Oof...well, I was talking about the pistols I'd already named. And no fair showing the Pico with that godawful magazine extension! Everyone I know either either files it down or keeps it in their range bag as an extra magazine for long shooting session.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but the looks of the Pico, while...unusual...have really grown on me.



Probably not.....

http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14867&stc=1http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14868&stc=1http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14869&stc=1

[Bawanna]

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but the looks of the Pico, while...unusual...have really grown on me."


Very true, of the three pictured the Beretta is best to my eye, even with the super ugly mag extension.
I wouldn't buy one but it looks the best to me.

[dsk]

When it comes down to a defense gun, I couldn't care less how ugly it is as long as it works and is easy to shoot. I'm not that old, but I feel it when I consider how IMHO handguns stopped looking sexy the day they started making the frames out of plastic.

[Bawanna]

Not me buddy. If it don't look cool (remembering that what looks cool to me might not look cool to you) I ain't carrying it.

Times and models change, that don't mean you have to change with them. Join me in being a hold out for steel and wood and the way things should be.

That said I do own and carry a PM45 as a second. It looks cool enough to pass muster and the light weight is a plus.
I did have a rifle that had one of them Tupperware stocks but I got rid of that, ain't natural ya know?

John Moses was the king of cool looking in my humble opinion.

[King Rat]

Regardless, last night I cleaned the gun well, I did file down the extractor, but just a tad. I especailly cleaned the striker channel well with Gun Scrubber Spray. I also spent time to align the two recoil springs where and inserted them just like the instruction. I made sure the spring flang on the larger spring faced the top and the inner spring at the bottom.
Off to the range. I brought just one box of the same ammo Freedom munitions reloaded brand. Bingo, The Kahr ran through the ammo better than any time I have shot the gun. NOT on failure. Smooth! After the 50 rounds I was wishing I had brought more ammo. I had a few Fiocchi with me. FORGET IT, THAT AMMO IS TOO LARGE! So I went up to the counter and bought a box of 50 range ammo. Federal RN in a white box. (Rip off for the price of ($20.00), Man the Kahr had a feast ate them like candy. The only minor issue I had was the last 10 rds. When I inserted racked the first round, the reciever would stick out the back my about 1/8 of a inch. I knew the gun was getting dirty. I believe the gun will wear in some more and that small issue will be non-existent.

Lol, Liked the Picture of the High Point. I really do think the comparison was a little off, the pico is a pretty sleek gun. Appreciate more when it is in the hand for sure. Reminds me of the Boberg. Hey, I like the BoBerg. Remember the ugly Little Race Horse "Seabiscuit"! the little sucker kicked ass on anyone who got in his way. The Big Bad Beautiful General had no chance. Seabiscuit had HEART! So does the Pico! Most of the shooters of the Pico seem to prefer shooting the gun without the extended mag. I kept mine and did not file it down. I believe they designed it for quick draw in some carry positions. Remember the Piso is thin and the mag grip is thin also, so it will actually fit in great concealed area's and have a way to guickly pull the pistol out.

http://i.imgur.com/LgqtAI6.jpg?1 http://i.imgur.com/qy5NQFv.jpg

[Ed M]

Stopped at Walmart today and did my usual check of the ammo case. There it was.....a whole row of boxes.........$9.97 per box.......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCfWHqrYUqo


Yup - Perfecta 380. The only ammo my CW380s won't digest. I almost never see it on the shelves here at any of the Walmarts.

OK Mr. Pico - let's dance. Bought 4 boxes, went home and grabbed my range bag and the Pico. No kidding - it likes it! Not a miscue in 100 rounds of that ammo. The bullseye was gone on my target at 5 yards.

Learned a few things today. Perfecta is BY FAR the cleanest shooting ammo I've ever tried. After 100 rounds, the Pico doesn't even look like I shot it.

Perfecta is a bit hotter than most other target ammo in 380. Felt like self defense ammo. I went back to Walmart and bought several more boxes of Pico food.

A guy and his wife came over at the range to see what I was shooting. The wife saw the Pico, and said "Isn't it Cute???!!!" I said no. The husband said "That's funny looking." I said yes it is. I don't care how it looks - it works - really well! I still think it's ugly, and I'm not gonna get all butt hurt if anyone thinks so too. I liked it enough to buy a $50+ Vedder kydex pocket holster for it. It fits the Pico great, and the Pico is now in my carry rotation.

Pico de gallo - literal Spanish translation is "beak of rooster". Hmmmm.

[King Rat]

Stopped at Walmart today and did my usual check of the ammo case. There it was.....a whole row of boxes.........$9.97 per box.......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCfWHqrYUqo


Yup - Perfecta 380. The only ammo my CW380s won't digest. I almost never see it on the shelves here at any of the Walmarts.

OK Mr. Pico - let's dance. Bought 4 boxes, went home and grabbed my range bag and the Pico. No kidding - it likes it! Not a miscue in 100 rounds of that ammo. The bullseye was gone on my target at 5 yards.

Learned a few things today. Perfecta is BY FAR the cleanest shooting ammo I've ever tried. After 100 rounds, the Pico doesn't even look like I shot it.

Perfecta is a bit hotter than most other target ammo in 380. Felt like self defense ammo. I went back to Walmart and bought several more boxes of Pico food.

A guy and his wife came over at the range to see what I was shooting. The wife saw the Pico, and said "Isn't it Cute???!!!" I said no. The husband said "That's funny looking." I said yes it is. I don't care how it looks - it works - really well! I still think it's ugly, and I'm not gonna get all butt hurt if anyone thinks so too. I liked it enough to buy a $50+ Vedder kydex pocket holster for it. It fits the Pico great, and the Pico is now in my carry rotation.

Pico de gallo - literal Spanish translation is "beak of rooster". Hmmmm.

That was great Ed. Glad to here the Pico loved the Perfecta. I have not shot it in 380. yet, but it became one of my preferred for 9mm. I order a 1000 rds at a time. Love it in all my semi's and my LCR9mm.

=-

[Bawanna]

I think it's cute too.

[King Rat]

Here is the Federal that I used when I went back after working out the problems from the last range session. Remember the Freedom Munition runs great in the Kahr. I bought these when i ran out after only bringing one box of ammo to retest the gun. Over priced at the LGS but they ran great I will have to see if Walmart carries the Federal at a reasonable price. If the are around$10.00 a box, will be great instead of the rip off LGS price of $20.00.

http://i.imgur.com/zx6Mzc7.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/XXW3EeY.jpg?2

Here is a example of the real cost of under $10.00 And he wants to know why I do not buy my guns from him.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/federal-range-target-practice-9mm-luger-ammo-115-grain-fmj-rtp9115-p-59035.aspx

[Ed M]

The local Walmart I was at didn't have it in 380, but they had Federal Champion brass case 9mm for $9.97 per box of 50. New packaging compared to the Champion I've used before.

They also had 100 round boxes for $18.97 per box. I grabbed a few boxes of CCI standard velocity 22 for my Phoenix Arms HP-22 @ $3.47 per box.

The ammo case was really full yesterday, and there was a waiting line both times I was there. No ammo shortage now!

[topgun1953]

[QUOTE=King Rat;389192]Here is the Federal that I used when I went back after working out the problems from the last range session. Remember the Freedom Munition runs great in the Kahr. I bought these when i ran out after only bringing one box of ammo to retest the gun. Over priced at the LGS but they ran great I will have to see if Walmart carries the Federal at a reasonable price. If the are around$10.00 a box, will be great instead of the rip off LGS price of $20.00.


If you find .380 for $10 a box let us know. I got some PMC from Freedom Munitions for $9.00 per....I still think it was a mistake..but I got my 1000 rnds. I wonder how many LGS/ranges scare off people form the sport with their overpriced ammo when renting a gun.

[King Rat]

[QUOTE=King Rat;389192]Here is the Federal that I used when I went back after working out the problems from the last range session. Remember the Freedom Munition runs great in the Kahr. I bought these when i ran out after only bringing one box of ammo to retest the gun. Over priced at the LGS but they ran great I will have to see if Walmart carries the Federal at a reasonable price. If the are around$10.00 a box, will be great instead of the rip off LGS price of $20.00.


If you find .380 for $10 a box let us know. I got some PMC from Freedom Munitions for $9.00 per....I still think it was a mistake..but I got my 1000 rnds. I wonder how many LGS/ranges scare off people form the sport with their overpriced ammo when renting a gun.

Thank you Top gun. I am going up to Walmart tomorrow and check it out. The good news is I have about 500 rounds of Freedom munitions which yes, it loves it. PMC is good ammo, If ordering from Freedom munitions I have found out a few times that if you include ammo other than their own ammo, it can add delays in shipping.
On the Federal over priced LGS.It is not unusual to see people shooting multiply boxes of their over priced ammo. Obviously these folks do no not shoot often.

I have been measuring the lengths of different cartridges and have come to the conclusion that the Kahr does not like a round over a certain length. The Freedom is one of the shortest I have seen so far, and the best ammo I have shot out of the gun. I will post some numbers later. But it might be a wise thing for owners to invest in a case gauge and a set of calipers. I have a gauge in 9mm and ordered one for 380. from amazon. They have them for $20.00.

[dsk]

I've never found .380 ammo for just $10. The cheapest I ever find it locally is around $14. Usually it's PPU or Cabela's in-house brand Herters. Fortunately my P380 runs either one just fine assuming it's not having PMS again (pocketgun malfunction syndrome). The only stuff mine flat out won't run is either ammo with a really blunt nose (like PMC Starfire) or Fiocchi, which isn't news for any .380 Kahr owner.

[Ikeo74]

Just read this on another forum from Gun Deals. Less than $10 per 50 box.

Monarch .380 ACP 94 Gr 200 Rnds - $36.99 (Free S/H over $50)

[boscobarbell]

Does anyone know what the turnaround is for pistol service these days at Kahr? Just curious, as I'm eager to get my CW380 back.

[Bawanna]

It really depends on what it needs and if they have parts off the line needed to repair it.
We could only guess as we don't know how many are in line.

I had to send my K40 back for a barrel peening issue long long ago and it was taking forever. I finally emailed and they couldn't find it but the contact, a nice lady named Dorothy as I recall figured it out. I was inquiring by my name but it was logged in as my police department.
Once she figured that out she said it was all black and it needed a new slide but they didn't have any black slides off the line.

I inquired as to the cost of putting on a stainless slide and she said they had those, no charge and I got it the very next day. I wanted a two tone anyhow so it was a win / win for me.

How long has it been gone?

[Ed M]

Does anyone know what the turnaround is for pistol service these days at Kahr? Just curious, as I'm eager to get my CW380 back.

Patience buddy. Exorcisms take time. ;)

On a lighter note, I discovered the new batch of Perfecta 380 I bought works fine in both of my CW380s. The few rounds I saved from my last batch still don't chamber easily though.

Check out your local Walmart - $9.97 per box is pretty good.

[boscobarbell]

How long has it been gone?

It was at my LGS on 07/21, so probably was shipped to them on 07/22.

[mark7mod0]

I tried a box of Perfecta from Walmart yesterday. Tried to beat buying 2 boxes of the $18.97 a box for the Federal. Less than 10 rds actually cycled thru without a problem. With the matter of recoil springs..... on the WolfSprings website https://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto%20Pistols/KELTEC/P3AT/cID1/mID31/dID150 I see a few spring pound tension options for the recoil springs that appear very similar to the Kahr springs, but when I select Kahr I see no springs listed for a 380. Anyone tried a KelTec P3AT spring and if yes, what LBS and why? What is the LBs of a CW380 Kahr spring?

[gb6491]

I tried a box of Perfecta from Walmart yesterday. Tried to beat buying 2 boxes of the $18.97 a box for the Federal. Less than 10 rds actually cycled thru without a problem. With the matter of recoil springs..... on the WolfSprings website https://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto%20Pistols/KELTEC/P3AT/cID1/mID31/dID150 I see a few spring pound tension options for the recoil springs that appear very similar to the Kahr springs, but when I select Kahr I see no springs listed for a 380. Anyone tried a KelTec P3AT spring and if yes, what LBS and why? What is the LBs of a CW380 Kahr spring?
I doubt Kel Tec P3AT springs would work as I believe the diameter of the Kahr guide rod is too large. For sure this is the case with 1st/1.5 gen LCP springs.
Regards,
Greg

[boscobarbell]

Well, what do you know…just got a call from my LGS…the CW380 is back from Kahr! No idea what they did to it yet, but the clerk told me the repair was done free-of-charge. Wow…great customer service!

I should be able to pick it up Friday, so by early next week I should have it at the range to see if, after all is said and done, this pistol is a keeper. Fingers crossed.


It was at my LGS on 07/21, so probably was shipped to them on 07/22.

[Armybrat]

Hope they fixed it right for you..

[boscobarbell]

So I just picked up my CW380 from my LGS. My worst fears were confirmed when I read the repair slip: They replaced the recoil springs, which I had expected. The replaced the extractor, which was never an issue. Replaced the striker guide, an aftermarket Galloway part. Replaced the striker, an aftermarket Lakeline product. Replaced the striker spacer.

So I lost about $50 in aftermarket upgrades. My call to Kahr service also confirmed that they destroy whatever pieces they replace.

So I'm back to a CW380 that likely will need the Lakeline upgrade in the future to ensure functionality anyway. Perfect.

I think I'm throwing up my hands in the CW380 experiment. As they say, fool me once…..

[finpro]

I think this is Kahr's standard operating procedure and they announce it somewhere. For them, parts are cheap and gunsmith time is expensive, so they are biased in favor of replacing parts that may possibly be involved, even if it is not certain they are. Also, in our litigious world, it would be dangerous for Kahr to appear to endorse non-Kahr parts that might impact functional performance or safety. While I doubt they would remove replacement sights or grips, if possible it is generally better to restore the gun to standard format before returning it for repair. This would apply to any factory repair work on guns and some other products, as well.

Please let us know if the repair works. Fingers crossed...

[Ikeo74]

They can't return the gun to factory specs if they don't make sure it has all factory parts. It is a $50 lesson. Go shoot it again, it should run perfect now.

[boscobarbell]

They can't return the gun to factory specs if they don't make sure it has all factory parts. It is a $50 lesson.

I understand that, by I don't understand why they wouldn't return the aftermarket parts with the pistol. Those were MY parts.

This is all the more aggravating because we know that the Kahr factory strikers are a frequent point of concern.



Go shoot it again, it should run perfect now.

I wished I shared your optimism. This is my second CW380 that has basically become a part-time job.

[Ikeo74]

Keep us informed because it's a group project now. We are wanting to see everything resolved and working.

[boscobarbell]

Keep us informed because it's a group project now. We are wanting to see everything resolved and working.

Much appreciated. You guys have been great.

I'm going to sleep on this one. At this point, my inclination is to put it up for sale and put it in the rear view mirror as a lesson learned.

[DavidR]

Unfortunately I think it's commonplace for manufacturers to throw away after-market parts when you send a gun in. I know that both Sig and Ruger warn you ahead of time when they send you shipping instructions.

In the meantime take your RM380 out and enjoy it.

http://i.imgur.com/1y78cLl.jpg?2

(https://i.imgur.com/1y78cLl.jpg)http://i.imgur.com/SoBow7X.jpg?1

Dave

[Ikeo74]

That is what I do. I have about 300 rounds through mine and am still waiting for a malfunction or misfire.

Is that a bicycle tube rubber on the grip?

[DavidR]

Yes, it's a Bell brand tube. Their tubes have a small ribbed section that works really well as a grip.


Dave

[boscobarbell]

That is exactly what I intend to do. With the year I've had with Taurus, Ruger, and Kahr, I've developed a deep appreciation for micro-pistols that just plain function.

I guess, being the owner of both an RM380 and Pico that operate without a hitch, I should've just quit when I was ahead.




In the meantime take your RM380 out and enjoy it.

http://i.imgur.com/1y78cLl.jpg?2

(https://i.imgur.com/1y78cLl.jpg)http://i.imgur.com/SoBow7X.jpg?1

Dave

[Armybrat]

Sorry to hear tthat one hasn't worked out for you, bosco.

After reading the many complaints about the CW/P/380, I bought the somewhat larger CT380 and have had no functional problems so far.

Also have two LCP Rugers (one unfired NIB) and a brand new RM380, also unfired since the factory. Gotta get those two new ones out to the family land to shoot. The RM380 is as big as my old PM9, but hopefully will be a soft shooter. It feels good in my hand. Haven't read very many complaints about that model. I'll have $172 in it after the rebate comes in next month. Hard to beat that bargain.

Dave, what holster is that yours is ridin' in? I'm looking around for something like it.

[berettabone]

High Noon makes a regular and tuckable like Bosco's. I have the tuckable for my MK.

[boscobarbell]

Is there a consensus here that the CT380 is inherently more reliable than the CW380? Is it just a matter of the tighter tolerances required to squeeze the pistol down to an even tinier size?

[DavidR]

Dave, what holster is that yours is ridin' in? I'm looking around for something like it.

It's from High Noon Holsters. The "Upper Cut" model.

[Ed M]

I guess, being the owner of both an RM380 and Pico that operate without a hitch, I should've just quit when I was ahead.

Bosco, if that's how you feel, maybe you should have. What are you gonna do if your CW380 works 100% now? Are you always gonna fear that the striker is gonna break? You apparently don't worry about that occurring with your Pico even though you hear about that happening much more than with Kahr 380s.

Everyone has to deal with their own comfort level when it comes to firearms. Personally, I'd rather have something that's comfortable to shoot AND reliable. Both of my CW380s have been that for me. Since I wound up with a rather large stash of Perfecta 380 ammo, I decided to finally do something to my CW380s so I could use that ammo in them. I did Tigman's fix to the extractor, since Kahr had already ground off the corner of the extractor claw from the factory.

My CW380s now eat everything 100% - Perfecta included. I can slingshot the first round in every time as well. Both are operating 100%, and both have enough rounds to meet the recommended break in count.

Don't get me wrong - I like my Pico, but I LOVE my CW380s. The trigger pull on the CW380 is exactly half the weight of the Pico, and it's just more comfortable to shoot at the range. The Pico serves it's purpose very well, but the Kahr just does everything better.

The Remington RM380 does look nice. I've handled one, but not shot one. It's almost the same size as a Kahr micro 9mm, so it really doesn't appeal to me. They also have a listed 10 lb trigger pull. No thanks - my CW380 is 4lb 2oz.

Good luck Brother - I wish you all the best in your decision. Six months from now, I hope your CW380 will have earned your trust and loyalty.

[Armybrat]

Is there a consensus here that the CT380 is inherently more reliable than the CW380? Is it just a matter of the tighter tolerances required to squeeze the pistol down to an even tinier size?

I'm not sure - seems there are very few of us CT380 owners around. Maybe that's why there has been a price drop at some dealers down to $220. Mine runs most everything great as long as it doesn't sniff any WWB.

[dsk]

So I just picked up my CW380 from my LGS. My worst fears were confirmed when I read the repair slip: ...Replaced the striker, an aftermarket Lakeline product. Replaced the striker spacer.

So I lost about $50 in aftermarket upgrades. My call to Kahr service also confirmed that they destroy whatever pieces they replace.


So they removed a superior aftermarket part and replaced it with one of their inferior ones. Nice. You'd hope that at least they'd send that Lakeline striker of yours that they confiscated over to their engineering department and say "hey guys, maybe we should start making them more like this..." but you can bet they didn't. Instead they threw it away and continue to claim that there's nothing wrong with the OEM one they make. :lie:

[boscobarbell]

Bosco, if that's how you feel, maybe you should have. What are you gonna do if your CW380 works 100% now? Are you always gonna fear that the striker is gonna break? You apparently don't worry about that occurring with your Pico even though you hear about that happening much more than with Kahr 380s.

Yeah, that'll pretty much always be on the back of my mind. Either that or I see if it's shooting okay, and then bite the bullet and purchase ANOTHER Lakeline striker?

As to the Pico, I have a Gen III, and if you look over at the Beretta owner's forum, the latest one out seem to be pretty good right out of the box. It looks like Beretta listened to complaints and fixed a lot of what was wrong. I've heard nothing of striker issues of late.



Everyone has to deal with their own comfort level when it comes to firearms. Personally, I'd rather have something that's comfortable to shoot AND reliable. Both of my CW380s have been that for me. Since I wound up with a rather large stash of Perfecta 380 ammo, I decided to finally do something to my CW380s so I could use that ammo in them. I did Tigman's fix to the extractor, since Kahr had already ground off the corner of the extractor claw from the factory.

My CW380s now eat everything 100% - Perfecta included. I can slingshot the first round in every time as well. Both are operating 100%, and both have enough rounds to meet the recommended break in count.

What're you trying to do, make me jealous?? ;)


Don't get me wrong - I like my Pico, but I LOVE my CW380s. The trigger pull on the CW380 is exactly half the weight of the Pico, and it's just more comfortable to shoot at the range. The Pico serves it's purpose very well, but the Kahr just does everything better.

I agree to a point. I like my Pico more and more, and the trigger has gotten easier with lots of firing and dry-firing (with snap caps!). You don't have to sell me on the Kahr…I immediately regretted selling my first one, and just had to scratch that itch and get a second. But here's what I've spent so far:

Purchase: $250
Night Sights: $100
Aftermarket: $50
Xtra Mag: $30
Magguts: $40
Foxx Holster $50
TOTAL: $520 !!!!!

So over five hundred dollars, lots of aggravation, lots of time, a trip back to the factory, range ammo, etc etc etc. At what point does one just cut their losses and move on? (And who knows how much I could sell it for…regardless, it will be at a loss.)


The Remington RM380 does look nice. I've handled one, but not shot one. It's almost the same size as a Kahr micro 9mm, so it really doesn't appeal to me. They also have a listed 10 lb trigger pull. No thanks - my CW380 is 4lb 2oz.

The Remington is only an ounce heavier than the CW380, and only a fraction of an inch bigger in every dimension. I, too, have a PM9, and it is both bigger and significantly heavier than the RM380.

I've fired and dry-fired mine a lot, and added some Galloway parts for the trigger, and the pull is now significantly lighter and exceptionally smooth. Certainly not as nice as the Kahr, but that's asking a lot. Nor is it upgradable to night sights, which got me looking at the Kahr and Pico in the first place.


Good luck Brother - I wish you all the best in your decision. Six months from now, I hope your CW380 will have earned your trust and loyalty.

Thanks very much for your well-wishes and all your help. Regardless of what I do, I am very grateful to the people here who have lent their time and support.

I'll keep everyone posted, for sure…..

[DavidR]

Only you can decide when to cut your losses. I cut mine after 600 rounds and a trip back to Kahr and my CW380 still would not reliably cycle anything other than Hornady Critical Defense. It really was a shame because like you I really liked the Kahr. I've not been brave enough to try another one.


Dave

[boscobarbell]

That reminds me…I also purchased over 300 rounds of Hornady CD because it was the ammo that my Kahr seemed to prefer, and I wanted to make sure I was stocked up! Not a total loss, since even if I walk away from the Kahr I can always use it in my Pico or RM380, both of which will eat anything.

Sorry to hear about your Kahr. I remain convinced that they have the POTENTIAL to be the best DA micro-380 out there. Sadly, it appears that too often that potential is never realized.



Only you can decide when to cut your losses. I cut mine after 600 rounds and a trip back to Kahr and my CW380 still would not reliably cycle anything other than Hornady Critical Defense. It really was a shame because like you I really liked the Kahr. I've not been brave enough to try another one.


Dave

[mark7mod0]

I am glad I discovered the mod of slightly rounding the extractor corner for the CW380. I also polished the extractor. It immediately made the firearm feed and eject any 380 brand ammo I use. The gun is a without a doubt the best 380 I have ever owned (HI Point CF-380....Taurus TCP 738.... Ruger LCP -original model) and glad I hung in and worked with it.

[dsk]

And then you've got guys like me. I've had every possible problem with my P380 EXCEPT feed issues. :p

[Armybrat]

Well, seems like everyone produces lemons, unfortunately.
Even Ruger has been plagued by a lack of quality control for the past couple of years..... not to mention multiple recall fiascos. Then there is all the decades-long drama at Colt. S&W with their similar problems too. Ain't even going to talk about the Remlins.

Hope Kahr came do better - I just ordered a CW9.

[SlowBurn]

Well, seems like everyone produces lemons, unfortunately.

And the experience colors how we feel about a gun and our confidence in it. My Pico grief is the mirror of DavidR's with CW380, though many love theirs. First the front sight kept flying off. Then the trigger would not reset. Now Beretta has sent me a brand new one after 3 trips to the mother ship for the same issue (trigger) but I'm done with it. Plus I'm not a fan of how they shoot even when working right. Maybe its just emotional but I'm not taking this one out of the box. Anyone want a NIB Pico plus lots of extras?

[DavidR]

Sig P290RS has actually been the worst for me. Three trips to Sig (trigger reset, extraction failure, extraction failure) and then it developed a new problem.

Gave up on it and traded it in toward a CM9 which I picked up today.

http://i.imgur.com/oaj4DYd.jpg?1


Dave

[boscobarbell]

This appears to be a particularly difficult niche of pistols. Other than the Remington, I can't think of a single .380 pistol that hasn't had its share of difficulties. Even Glock had trouble rolling out the 42, although I've heard that they eventually got it straightened out (although it IS the size of a micro-9). Can anyone think of another .380 that appears to be utterly reliable?

[Ed M]

Can anyone think of another .380 that appears to be utterly reliable?

My Sig P238 was totally reliable from round one, but I just couldn't bring myself to pocket carry it cocked and locked next to my........zipper.

For a single action gun, it had a pretty stiff trigger pull too - 6 lbs. It got traded in on CW380#2 and my Pico. Don't miss it one bit.

I still have my Bodyguard 380 though. It was a light primer strike monster for the first 200 rounds. It's the reason I bought my first CW380. It has since broken in nicely, and while the trigger pull is still REALLY long, it lightened up to a bit over 7 lbs. No more light strikes either. I'm pleased with all 4 of my 380s, and since they take a back seat to my 9mm Kahrs in my carry rotation, I'm looking no further.

Now if Kahr would make a MK380, all bets are off...

[Armybrat]

Can anyone think of another .380 that appears to be utterly reliable?
Why shore....

http://www.coltautos.com/images/modelm_380_sn1i1.jpg

[boscobarbell]

My Sig P238 was totally reliable from round one, but I just couldn't bring myself to pocket carry it cocked and locked next to my........zipper.

For a single action gun, it had a pretty stiff trigger pull too - 6 lbs. It got traded in on CW380#2 and my Pico. Don't miss it one bit.

I still have my Bodyguard 380 though. It was a light primer strike monster for the first 200 rounds. It's the reason I bought my first CW380. It has since broken in nicely, and while the trigger pull is still REALLY long, it lightened up to a bit over 7 lbs. No more light strikes either. I'm pleased with all 4 of my 380s, and since they take a back seat to my 9mm Kahrs in my carry rotation, I'm looking no further.

Now if Kahr would make a MK380, all bets are off...

I wish I could carry SA pistols. I haven't trained in them, and refuse to carry pistols in different configurations because I'm afraid I'll forget which version is on my hip.

As to the Bodyguard, the horror stories on the S&W website are painful to read. I'll stick with Kahr, thanks.

I agree on the MK380, by the way. It'd probably be too heavy from a practical standpoint, but there's no way I could resist! :cool:

[Bawanna]

Been a big demand for an MK45, might as well wish for an MK380 as well. Cover all the bases.

Pondering some I think I'd wish for a K45 myself first.

[dsk]

Well, seems like everyone produces lemons, unfortunately.
Even Ruger has been plagued by a lack of quality control for the past couple of years..... not to mention multiple recall fiascos.

I bought a new LCP to replace the Kahr in my carry rotation. It ended up having feed issues. I looked closer at the feed ramp and it looked like a washboard under magnification. I ended up having to polish it out which helped the feeding issues. At the same time the magazines wouldn't lock into place and I had to shave some material off the bottom of the grip.

There are scores of people out there who are not gun enthusiasts and who buy guns like these for protection. How do they even get by without knowing how to do a fluff n' buff on their own guns?