Failure to everything - CW380

[rice rocket]

I've gotten failures of just about everything in my first 3 boxes, FTF, FTE, FTL, not going fill into battery, etc. Cleaned it up, and ran 3 more through it and it doesn't seem to be improving.

I heard these were a ***** to break in, but this is doesn't seem like it should have left the factory? Or just run more boxes through?

I tried looking for obvious points of failure, and this is all I really came up with, is the front of the frame supposed to be flared like this?

https://i.imgur.com/11JhuCy.jpg

[Ed M]

What ammo?

Yeah, the frames are built like that. The rails are straight.

With the gun assembled and safety checked, put an empty mag in and pull the slide back all the way.

The slide should lock back. Let's go from there...

[bugs]

my CM9 has a flair, but it has run w/o a stoppage for 8000 rds. now; the metal guides look straight which is good. IMHO, from what I've seen about the Kahr .380s, they are not worth the headaches to make run right, when the CM9s ( generally ) shoot,shoot,and shoot. struggle thru the 500 break in, if not reliably functioning after that, send back to Kahr or get a CM9 and shoot,shoot, and shoot.

NRA LIFER

IDPA BELEIVER

[Ed M]

I strongly disagree with the 380's being tough to get running right.

Most problems seem to be ammo related, ie the extractor/breech face clearance. Kahr will fix this, or anyone with a bit of mechanical aptitude can fix this themselves.

Kahr will certainly fix anything else, but those issues seem uncommon.

All six Kahrs I own have functioned perfectly out of the box with quality domestic made ammo, with three of them being 380's.

When the Kahr 380's run right, there is no other 380 available that is easier to conceal safely, or as easy to shoot very accurately.

IMHO - heck yeah they're worth the effort, if any is required.

[JethrosDad]

Yes the frame is suppose to flair out like that.

I agree with what Ed M said. The majority of problems are due to the extractor being too close to the breech face not allowing enough room for the bullet to tip up and into the chamber.

Look at the sticky thread regarding this topic. It has all the answers!

[mark7mod0]

As I posted many times prior, I am glad I bought a CM9 after buying a CW380, because if I had not, I would have never said much good about a Kahr firearm. It never broke in to where I trusted it for an EDC. My CM9 has gained my respect for Kahr firearms. The thing is just about perfect in every way you can ask a firearm to be.

[dustnchips]

CW380. My first 100 rounds I had 14 failures of different kinds. I then did the prep for a new Kahr and have not had any failures since. I lost count of rounds, but it is in excess of 1000 since the prep. So, first find the sticky for prepping a new Kahr for use and follow it. I broke mine in with PMC, Remington, and Winchester. This may save you hundreds of frustrating rounds.

[rice rocket]

CW380. My first 100 rounds I had 14 failures of different kinds. I then did the prep for a new Kahr and have not had any failures since. I lost count of rounds, but it is in excess of 1000 since the prep. So, first find the sticky for prepping a new Kahr for use and follow it. I broke mine in with PMC, Remington, and Winchester. This may save you hundreds of frustrating rounds.

Where's the sticky? It's not on this forum? Do you mind linking? Thanks.

Slide locks back fine on the last round, if I ever get to it.

So sounds like I should clean and try another 300 rds? I doubt ammo is the issue (unless all FMJs aren't suitable), I had FMJ boxes from Sig Sauer, HPR, PMC Bronze, Remington UMC, Winchester white box, and another Sig Sauer box, in that order. HPR seemed to run the best, best as in 10 stoppages in the roulette wheel of failures, versus 15-20.

I'll check the breech face sticky, but this will be the first firearm I've owned of the two dozen I've owned, that needed modification right out of the box.

[rice rocket]

As I posted many times prior, I am glad I bought a CM9 after buying a CW380, because if I had not, I would have never said much good about a Kahr firearm. It never broke in to where I trusted it for an EDC. My CM9 has gained my respect for Kahr firearms. The thing is just about perfect in every way you can ask a firearm to be.
Thanks for the opinion.

I have a Walther PPS M2 as my EDC, which has never ever had a failure of any kind, I was hoping the CW380 would nail the pocket carry 100% (even though I pocket carry the PPS M2 in the winter at times). CM9 kinda splits the difference, and I'd rather have the smaller one as the "best of the class" kind of gun (otherwise I can't justify it in my carry rotation while owning the PPS M2).

I don't have any doubts that it CAN be reliable, I'd just like to be able to get to that point someday, somehow.

[dustnchips]

he sticky is in the New Member Forum. Sticky: Proper prep of a new kahr (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?14748-Proper-prep-of-a-new-kahr)

[Ed M]

Sounds like you're doing what you can to make this work.

If you make it through the prep thread, and don't make it run 100%, I think it's time to give Kahr customer service a call.

The extractor mod is really only needed to run certain brands of non-SAAMI spec ammo in it (Fiocchi). If it doesn't run with PMC or Remington FMJ, there's a problem (assuming no operator errors).

[Armybrat]

Best wishes on getting it to run right. Those here with good ones like them a lot.

But occasionally there are lemons that don't seem to ever get fixed, especially with these tiny mouse guns.

But it sounds like the OP is in the preliminary stages of smoothing his out.

Three of my four Kahrs ran great after the prep, and the 4th one (CW9) hasn't been put through its paces yet.

[SlowBurn]

Probably needs an extractor upgrade. Not that uncommon with new CW380s. Call or email the factory and get a RMA authoriziation. Mine came back quickly and now runs fine with pretty much any ammo including the flat nosed Winchester.

[erichard]

For those answering,
1. did they redesign the extractor recently?
2. are they now including that new extractor design in 380's sold currently?
3. if you order an extractor from them or elsewhere, are you gonna get the new design most likely?

I thought I read they fixed the extractor issue.

[dsk]

When the Kahr 380's run right, there is no other 380 available that is easier to conceal safely, or as easy to shoot very accurately.

Exactly the reason why I decided to waste four years of my life and thousands of rounds of ammo getting mine to run right instead of just throwing it into a deep lake. I even bought a Ruger LCP to replace mine, but it just doesn't shoot the same.

[Ed M]

For those answering,
1. did they redesign the extractor recently?
2. are they now including that new extractor design in 380's sold currently?
3. if you order an extractor from them or elsewhere, are you gonna get the new design most likely?


There are several Kahr employees that post on a Kahr Facebook group.

From what I've read from them, apparently most Kahr 380s don't have an issue with chambering the recommended domestic made ammo. Just running the recommended 200 round break in takes care of things.

They're also aware that some do have issues, and they apparently have read the posts about how to solve these issues that members here have discovered.

They have a "new" fix for the chambering issues that SEEMS to be the same fixes found by some members here (modifying the lower edge of the extractor claw, and increasing the clearance between the extractor and breech face).

They also check the chamber diameter and bore it out a thousandth or so if its too tight. They haven't said what it should measure though.

Are they making these modifications to new manufacture guns? Don't know, but they DO know how to fix the ones that have issues.

Both of my CW380s had the bottom edge of the extractor claw ground off at a 45 degree angle when manufactured. It wasn't rounded off. They still wouldn't chamber every round of Fiocchi/Perfecta FMJ - about a 50% failure rate.

My new P380 has a 90 degree edge on the bottom of the extractor claw, and it's a more recent manufacturing date than my CW380s. I did the modifications to my CW380s myself, and they now eat any ammo fine. I haven't done the mods to my P380, and it won't chamber Fiocchi/Perfecta FMJ at all.

It's my guess (and only a guess) that they're using the same old extractor, and will "update" it if returned by folks that have issues with chambering.

[rjack1282]

Long time PM9 owner here which I carry regularly and have about 3k rounds through with zero malfunctions. I bought a new CW380 this past weekend and went to the range to perform 200 round break in. What followed was several hours of pain and agony as I slogged through 250 rounds of various brands I could find locally. I experienced approximately 75% failure to feed or return to battery, some failures to extract, and failure to chamber first round with slide release. My extractor does indeed have the angle from the factory; however, that obviously didn't have any effect on the reliability of my gun. I filled out an RMA request on Kahr's website later that day explaining how many rounds I fired and my issues. I received a FedEx prepaid overnight label from Kahr on Monday, I mailed it in on Tuesday, and received a receipt notification from Kahr on Wednesday.

I am almost certain I have an extractor to breach face clearance issue. I'll provide an update when I get it back and to the range.

[erichard]

From what I've read from them, apparently most Kahr 380s don't have an issue with chambering the recommended domestic made ammo. Just running the recommended 200 round break in takes care of things.

Thanks for the reply. You're probably right. However, I think they may be kidding themselves about it not being a big issue. A lot of people don't shoot much, never fire hundreds of rounds to test it, are too lazy or busy to contact Kahr, or are too fed up with the gun to deal with the hassle of getting it right. A lot of people just sell the gun or put it away in the safe due to unreliability. There are many reasons they might not hear from most of their buyers. I can't know myself either, of course, but I suspect they are vastly under estimating the number of problematic guns. I myself had to fight to get them to send a shipping label to send it in, and they didn't fix the gun in two attempts. I had to fix it myself (prior to extractor issue being known to them I suspect). If they won't cover shipping (were very resistant to do this), then it becomes fairly expensive to take care of this problem relative to the cost of the gun, since we have to ship it overnight UPS or FedEx. I just didn't want to fight them on the phone one more time for shipping, and so never sent in again. The only way I got shipping was by talking to the manager (Jay?). And one customer rep on the phone was one of the worst I've spoken with in the gun industry. There are a great many reasons people are disinclined to send guns in. I think this gives them a false sense of the gun being OK overall. They should just redesign the extractor and put it in all 380's. Penny wise pound foolish has sunk many a gun maker.

Having said all that, and having fixed the issues now, I carry the gun as much as any gun. It is basically my summer carry when wearing shorts and a Tshirt. It shoots well, is accurate, very slim and lightweight, has a nice trigger, and takes Magguts to max out the rounds per mag. A very handy gun.

[topgun1953]

For those answering,
1. did they redesign the extractor recently?
2. are they now including that new extractor design in 380's sold currently?
3. if you order an extractor from them or elsewhere, are you gonna get the new design most likely?

I thought I read they fixed the extractor issue.

while I was ordering some springs for my P380, I went ahead and ordered an extractor too. Glad I paid extra for FedEx ground....after being lost for a week, the package is scheduled for tomorrow. I’ll post a picture of the extractor soon after.

[JD950]

I think Kahr is making a mistake, from a marketing perspective, by not aggressively getting ahead of these issues. I own a number of kahr pistols, have had very few problems with them and like them quite a bit, but I have a strong impression that Kahr needs more work on its quality control. Kahr needs to do more to prevent unreliable guns from making it into the marketplace. I have no problem with their 200 round break in suggestion, but that should not be used as a method to sort out the good guns from the lemons, and that is what many customers or potential customers think is going on. Wearing in the springs and smoothing some contact points through a break-in process is one thing, but if extractors aren't fitted right or working right, that is not a break in issue. Customers get annoyed when they buy a $400 gun and it won't run right and a test fire at the manufacturer would have disclosed that. It isn't enough to say Kahr will make it right later...people want products to work as promised without a warranty repair or a DIY fix. Well, that is how it seems to me anyway.



Other than that, they could use a good engineer to work on their magazines.

[Ed M]

I think they may be kidding themselves about it not being a big issue.

I completely agree with your entire post.

This makes no sense to me as well. If Kahr knows what the correct chamber inside diameter should be, and they could easily measure the extractor/breech face clearance on a gun that eats any ammo - why don't they measure these during assembly?

It'd only take a second or two with a feeler gauge and a digital micrometer to discover if things are right. A go/no go test right off the bat.

That'd have to be cheaper than paying to have a bunch of firearms returned on their dime for repair, and would go a long way towards improving their reputation.

These little 380s ARE handy to carry. How many more would they sell if they were all 100% reliable out of the box?

People research these things, and info is readily available now a days....

[topgun1953]

while I was ordering some springs for my P380, I went ahead and ordered an extractor too. Glad I paid extra for FedEx ground....after being lost for a week, the package is scheduled for tomorrow. I’ll post a picture of the extractor soon after.
The new extractor that I received is a mim part. The bottom edge is ground at an angle. I forgot my calipers at work, so I’ll get them and take some measurements next week. I ran 80 rounds of freedom fmj through my P380 without issue. My old extractor ran fine though too. The two extractors look the same other than the difference in manufacturing.

[SlowBurn]

I completely agree with your entire post.

This makes no sense to me as well. If Kahr knows what the correct chamber inside diameter should be, and they could easily measure the extractor/breech face clearance on a gun that eats any ammo - why don't they measure these during assembly?
It'd only take a second or two with a feeler gauge and a digital micrometer to discover if things are right. A go/no go test right off the bat.
That'd have to be cheaper than paying to have a bunch of firearms returned on their dime for repair, and would go a long way towards improving their reputation.
These little 380s ARE handy to carry. How many more would they sell if they were all 100% reliable out of the box?
People research these things, and info is readily available now a days....

Just guessing but seems likely they're making them all to the new specs now, with the "upgraded" extractor. But what to do about the ones that are on the market or recently purchased? Since its not a safety issue, I'm guessing the policy is wait for people to send them in if they have a problem rather than issue a recall.

[Ed M]

Just guessing but seems likely they're making them all to the new specs now, with the "upgraded" extractor. But what to do about the ones that are on the market or recently purchased? Since its not a safety issue, I'm guessing the policy is wait for people to send them in if they have a problem rather than issue a recall.

Agreed. Also, the majority of Kahr 380s probably don't have an issue if you stick to domestic made ammo.

I'm just glad they figured out the fix for the problem.

Kudos to the smart folks here that figured it out before Kahr did.

[topgun1953]

The new extractor that I received is a mim part. The bottom edge is ground at an angle. I forgot my calipers at work, so I’ll get them and take some measurements next week. I ran 80 rounds of freedom fmj through my P380 without issue. My old extractor ran fine though too. The two extractors look the same other than the difference in manufacturing.

So I have three extractors. One, machined steel has over 1200 rounds on it, one that I've had kicking around for a while looks to be mim, and then the one I just received from Kahr which is definately mim. They are all the same dimensionally. The diameter of the lug, the overall length, and the gap between the lug and the claw. As the picture shows, they all have the bottom edge angled and somewhat polished. From what I've read, the extractor used to have a squared off bottom edge? If so, the only change appears to be the rounded bottom edge of the claw. For the most part, I haven't had feeding issues, just an occasional reman round from Freedom Munitions. The machined part is at the top, my newest one is bottom left.

[dsk]

From what I've read, the extractor used to have a squared off bottom edge?

The bottom edge on mine (purchased around 2013) was sharp and square on the bottom. I immediately knew that was a bad idea so I slightly rounded it before I even fired the first round through mine.

BTW thanks for the pic.

[Ed M]

All 3 of those look like MIM parts to me.

Those little circles aren't machined...