Shocking multiple failures of the P9 today at the range.

[RogerP9fan]

I'm still in a state of shock, really. Never had anything like this happen, ever... I'll start from the beginning.

8-16-10 was my first trip to the range with my P9. Flawless....WWB 115 and Lawman 115 g. 100 rounds.

Today, I was loading it up like you'd carry it...7 in the mag plus one in the chamber. WWB 115 g.

First round goes bang, second round, you pull the trigger and there is no tension at all. The trigger never reset. I eject the mag and there is a live round in the chamber. It was never struck by the firing pin as the trigger simply does not work. I had to eject the live round from the chamber and then the rest went bang.

I always make sure my rounds are flush inside the mag before loading into the pistol.
I'm not one to pull the trigger all the way back while firing and then hold it there so I can figure out where the reset is. I read that's how some guys like to improve their double taps, but I wasn't doing that at all. I was simply pulling the trigger. The gun is clean and lubed lightly according to "proper prep" using Mil-Comm TW 25b.

This happened multiple times and not always on the second round. Sometimes the third or fourth. The round chambered OK, just no trigger tension, it never reset for the next round.

This is very disappointing. What's going on? Has anyone ever had this happen with your Kahr. I still can't believe it. You pull the trigger....and nothing.

[Bawanna]

Was the slide going fully forward into battery? If it's just a tad bit back that will stop everything from working till it's pushed forward. Still not right but this could be a lube issue or rounds hanging up for some reason and not chambering fully.
AFter such a perfect first outing this seems out of context. First thought was trigger bar again but that would most likely not be sporadic. It would work or it wouldn't.
The trigger not doing anything pretty much rules out junk in the striker channel slowing things down.
Don't panic just yet, might just need a little more time.

[jocko]

gonna specilate on this, something has happened to cause the gun to get out of time and a dead trigger indicates a gun that is out of time. First thing I would do is install a new recoil spring and retest. If that fails to produce positive results, then IMO, two things could be wrong here and why all of a sudden is an unknown for me.

#1 an out of spec trigger bar.
#2 slide is not allowing the gun to go into full battery, therefore timing is off. but slide looks like it is in full battery..

I can relate to this if this helps. I had no light strikes in my P380 but all of a sudden after over 1200 rounds it started to fail to lock open on the last round. I put in new recoil springs, NO LUCK. New mag follower NO LUCK. new mag springs NO LUCK, New slide stop lever NO LUCK. new slide stop spring NO LUCK. New magazine release button NO LUCk. bACK TO KAHR IT WENT.

They replaced the slide and now all is perfect, so if u can figure that sh-t out, let me know.

I think your P9 is going to have to go back.

If you are not getting any trigger/striker release at all and just a dead trigger being pulled all the way back and nothing happening, then it is not in the striker channel either, such as a broken striker.

What is happening is when you are pulling the trigger now, it is not allowing the striker block to be pushed up to relase the striker to produce a boom. A trigger bar is normaly the culprit but we have read here of guns going back for this issue and coming back with a new slide and barrel. Sometimes I also think the kahr tech people are "parts replacement" people. Meaning replace parts until the gun works and then stop and test fire and send it back, never really stating the cause or reason why such and such happened.

A shame Roger P9.

Take the slide off and be sure the trigger is still attached to the trigger bar, just pullng the trigger will show the trigger bar moving backward and upward a tad. Check to see that the little spring that hooks under the trigger bar is in place, All this can be seen with the slide off. My bet all that stuff is OK. and it is timiing related..

[RogerP9fan]

Was the slide going fully forward into battery? If it's just a tad bit back that will stop everything from working till it's pushed forward. Still not right but this could be a lube issue or rounds hanging up for some reason and not chambering fully.
AFter such a perfect first outing this seems out of context. First thought was trigger bar again but that would most likely not be sporadic. It would work or it wouldn't.
The trigger not doing anything pretty much rules out junk in the striker channel slowing things down.
Don't panic just yet, might just need a little more time.Yes, the slide went fully into battery each time. Pulled the trigger.......no tension, ejected the mag and the round was in the chamber normally and ejected normally upon racking the slide. The next round in the mag was in a good position, it hadn't slipped too much forward (like I read some people talking about)

[RogerP9fan]

jocko, just did everything you said. The trigger bar is moving OK when I pull the trigger a little but, the trigger spring is intact. If it is a bad/broken trigger bar/spring , would it function OK for all those other rounds that in fact did go bang? Actually, Bawanna already answered this in his posting, oh man, I gotta eat something and take a friggin nap.

I do have a replacement recoil spring from Wolff. Didn't think I'd be putting it in till 5,000 rounds from now. The pistol now has 200 rounds with 5 or 6 of those trigger fail to reset failures.

Wow guys, BTW, thanks for the quick replies too. I got the general and the colonel both in rapid response mode!!!

Oh, also, the CZ's first outing, sweet, knocking out bulls at 10 yards (helps ease my pain, a little)

[ripley16]

I'm not one to pull the trigger all the way back while firing and then hold it there so I can figure out where the reset is. I read that's how some guys like to improve their double taps, but I wasn't doing that at all. I was simply pulling the trigger.

Just to be clear; You were letting the trigger go all the way forward after each shot?

[RogerP9fan]

Exactly. Wow, now I got another ranking member, now all I need is Wynn and I'll have the whole Senior Leadership team assembled in less than an hour of posting my bad news...

[jocko]

i DON'T THINK this is the issue either but have you spray cleaned the striker channel through that little clean out hole on the bottom?? Aslo to check to see if the striker is still in one peace, , with the slide off and looking at the bottom of it, push in that little round button on the back of the slide and then push forward that striker to see if it indeed protrudes out the front of the slide breech face. More than likely all of this is OK but no dissasembly required to check it out either.

I think it will need to go back for if all checks out OK as u have done and like ripley asked, no doubt you are releasing up on the trigger to allow it to reset, then something is causing the gun to be out of time and the triger bar and slide/barrel assembly are the only culprits left.

You should be able to put everything back together and dry fire this gun by just easing back the slide about a 1/4". This resets the trigger--if all is right. Now if it won't do that all the time then for sure it is out of time.

[Bawanna]

Exactly. Wow, now I got another ranking member, now all I need is Wynn and I'll have the whole Senior Leadership team assembled in less than an hour of posting my bad news...

What ya gotta do to be a ranking member?

We're here to help ya pal, whatever we gotta do. Do like Jocko suggest and try dry firing that bad boy, cycle the slide a bit and dry fire again and see if it's doing the right thing.
Anything change from the first range session, sounds like you were using the WW both trips just topping off the mag. I guess we need to forget the mag for a bit and just see if the trigger is resetting consistantly every time.
You said it was going into battery so there no chance it was just not oiled up enough? Any chance you were limp wristing, maybe it had enough to cycle a round but not reset the striker. Strange things happen when these little guns don't hit up against a solid hold. Just thinking on the keyboard now. Perplexed.

[MikeyKahr]

Hey RogerP9Fan, sorry to hear about the trouble with the P9, that's a total shame. As a ranking junior member/newbie, I wish I could help but the senior leadership here have thought of everything that I would have thought of (plus twice as much!). All I can do is hope that you get your P9 fixed quickly and that you regain your confidence in it. Good luck to you. P.S. If you need to send it back to Kahr and they make you pay for the shipping two/three weeks after purchase, that would just be ridiculous.

[Bawanna]

Theres no rank here, you need not salute nobody and you ranking juniors think up some darn good stuff. New to Kahr talk don't mean new to life in most cases. Being a graduate of the school of hard knocks I can attest to this even without a fully functioning brain.
I think we're a tad premature in throwing this gun in a box headed back to the mothership just yet. If in fact it does get to that point you surely won't have to pay, I'd wager 10 minutes salary on that for sure.
I'd do the stuff mentioned so far, and get back to the range with a fresh happy attitude and postive karma and see how it acts.
Lube it up good, good ammo, rock solid shooting stance (think of Rosie ODonnell, it works for me). See how she runs. My fingers are crossed, the incense is burning and Kahr is just a phone call away, but I'm thinking we're gonna lick this.

[RogerP9fan]

Yeah, guys, I'll chill out with the rank and file business, this isn't the USAF anymore. I guess it's just my way of showing respect and gratitude for those experienced Kahr members willing to take the time to help us newbies and, unfortunately, problem gun owners. Kinda bummed right now, but you're right about positive Karma, I'll keep my chin up.

[Bawanna]

Thats the spirit. Take the day off work tomorrow and go shoot that thing again and see if it still acts up. We need closure and a happy ending here.
I'm thinking more and more limp wrist, not resetting the striker. That would be a real easy fix.

[RogerP9fan]

What ya gotta do to be a ranking member?

We're here to help ya pal, whatever we gotta do. Do like Jocko suggest and try dry firing that bad boy, cycle the slide a bit and dry fire again and see if it's doing the right thing.
Anything change from the first range session, sounds like you were using the WW both trips just topping off the mag. I guess we need to forget the mag for a bit and just see if the trigger is resetting consistantly every time.
You said it was going into battery so there no chance it was just not oiled up enough? Any chance you were limp wristing, maybe it had enough to cycle a round but not reset the striker. Strange things happen when these little guns don't hit up against a solid hold. Just thinking on the keyboard now. Perplexed.There were only 2 things I was doing differently between range trip #1 and #2.

1) Today, I was loading the mag with all 7 and chambering a round and then topping off the mag with a another seventh round. (simulating a CCW scenerio) I wasn't topping off the mag like this on range trip #1. Last week, I would just load up 7 in the mag and shoot. No problems.

2) I positioned my fingertip more center on the trigger as opposed to my first finger joint crease doing the pulling. My accuracy was greatly improved today as a result. Last week my groupings were consistently low. Then the trouble started. Nope, definately have a firm grip, never been a limpwrister, good TW 25b lube in all places, but not over lubed.

I will be doing jocko's dry firing techniques and observations, just tomorrow, when hopefully I wake up with a happy smily positive attitude. (after work and after picking up my new Para P14, mabe that'll help ease the pain a little too. but mabe not...you know what they say is true, "The most important gun you have is the one you have on you."

[jocko]

I also think you know well enough about firearms to eliminate some of the suggestions that we have put forward to. Mind you,,, they are merely suggestions. One has to eliminate all the possables first, even though when mentioned might seem childish to even state but no harm intended. I honestly don't have a clue as to the exact issue. From everything you have stated, I do think it is going back to kahr. But if and when that has to happen, you can be rest assured that you have done everything you could on your end to fix the issue. Definitely let kahr know everything that you have done to, so that they can also eliminate some of the possables.

Why a gun decides to go "south" on a shooter after so many rounds down range without any visible signs of the cause is baffling but I have seen this before with kahrs, possably even on other guns but again i don't follow the other gun forums like I do the kahr forum, so I am specualting at best. Kahrs are so damn simple made that one would think they could see what is causing your issue, so that is even why I am more convinced that it is in the timing of the gun and in that case parts have to be replaced to bring things in line again. I do not believe it is any shooter error issues from what I have read from you. Limping a gun should not cause a dead trigger, as it merely has to retract the slide a 1/4" to recock the trigger system. Limping should cause fte or ftf.

I also doubt with 200 rounds out of your gun that it is the recoil spring but by putting in a new one and testing it out, you have certainly elimianted that possable. Keep us posted, as we are not only hear to "try" to help but also to learn from your experience to put your findings in our "thought bank".

Don't give up the ship, I really feel kahrs are super great guns, but when things don't go right,,,, "well been there done that"..

[RogerP9fan]

You're right jocko on all points. This is mysterious and I assure you, all proper shooting techniques, grip, etc, were used consistently. It has shaken my confidence. I'll tell you what would ruin it....if when I sent it back to the Mothership, they send it back stating, "could not duplicate problem" or "meets factory specs" or something like this, then there will definately be problems. I won't think worse case scenerio, I'm trying to stay positive.

BTW, UPS Tracking informed me of a "shipping accident" regarding my new Para P14*45 today. Delayed indefinately.

But, I'm stayin positive. :eek:

[jocko]

roger P9 fan

pm sent.

[dmdalton]

Roger P9 Fan,

Did you get this resolved? I'm having similar problem with a CW 45. No problems during the first 150 rounds. Then the trigger failed to reset after a shot. Even with finger completely removed from the trigger. If you wiggle the trigger you hear a click and it resets. At first I thought it might just be dirty but now it happens even when the gun is freshly cleaned and oiled.

Dave

[MikeyKahr]

Oh no, not again. I've been wondering too how your "situation" is progressing, RogerP9Fan - was it resolved or still in progress?

[Roadblock]

I didn't read the whole thread so maybe it was covered but I had this SAME issue with my P9, turned out I wasn't letting the trigger out far enough to reset.

I was so used to my 1911's and there short triggers, I kept short stroking my KAHR's trigger I guess you would say.

Once I figured it out, everything was fine.

[henshao]

Mine would do the same thing for a while. Seems to have stopped. Trigger wouldn't reset on a live round after firing the previous round. Squeezing the grip differently would cause something to pop in the gun and magically the trigger had tension again.

Now the trigger will work regardless. I figured it was the trigger bar and it worried me but it went away. Break in?