New Israeli Made (IWI?) Barrel Quality?

[MrBlackCat]

A few days ago I was looking on the Magnum Research site and decided to look at the 10" .357 Magnum barrel, as that is the last one I wanted for my collection. To my surprise, they were listed as made in Israel! I ordered one immediately, and it arrived today...

The website description doesn't say IWI, it just says Israeli made... maybe it was made by a quality challenged third party? Maybe I got the single rough, returned, abused floor model? A quality department reject that was accidentally shipped out? Maybe it was dropped while being packaged? Don't know.

A couple of oddities can be noted...
It was packaged like other new Desert Eagle barrels I have purchased, in a white box, wrapped with closed cell type white foam, inside a plastic bag... but strangely, there is almost no grease inside the bag. On previous barrels there was enough grease to remind you of buying old military surplus guns. Like dipped in grease.

The barrel has been previously mounted and fired, for sure. Maybe they test all of them? There are marks on the finish at the barrel locking surface (to the metal) as well as finish wear at the point where the frame slides into the sockets next to the gas port. There is also powder residue on the bottom of the barrel from the gas cylinder.

Ok, whatever, I got the barrel I wanted, and if I has been test fired and not cleaned well, no big deal.

But then I see a rather deep nick through the finish on the side of the barrel.
This one... Not terrible, but deeper than it looks in this image for sure. No deal breaker, I can fix it.
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz121/TheMrBlackCat/Tool%20Forums/th_IWI%20Barrel%20Damage%20Nicks%2001_zpsrburhgqd. jpg (http://s820.photobucket.com/user/TheMrBlackCat/media/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Damage%20Nicks%2001_zpsrburhgqd.jpg .html)

As I continue to look the barrel over, I see that it has been clamped a bit rough... look at these two images on opposite sides of the barrel. Note that they are UNDER the finish...
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz121/TheMrBlackCat/Tool%20Forums/th_IWI%20Barrel%20Damage%20Nicks%2003_zpsrmilpded. jpg (http://s820.photobucket.com/user/TheMrBlackCat/media/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Damage%20Nicks%2003_zpsrmilpded.jpg .html)http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz121/TheMrBlackCat/Tool%20Forums/th_IWI%20Barrel%20Damage%20Nicks%2002_zpsktmfoadm. jpg (http://s820.photobucket.com/user/TheMrBlackCat/media/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Damage%20Nicks%2002_zpsktmfoadm.jpg .html)

I have said this before... my guns are not show guns. I don't require them to be perfect. They are tools for enjoyment and potential defense, and a nick doesn't change that.
However... when I spend $498 on a new gun barrel, I expect more than this. I could have bought two inexpensive fully functional, name brand firearms for the cost of this one barrel... and they would not likely have any nicks. But I didn't... I bought this barrel for my Desert Eagle from Magnum Research, and it looks like it was treated really poorly. Is it safe? What if some of the locking mechanism or two part barrel lock was treated this poorly? This barrel doesn't look "good enough" for my Leopold scope really. Other than finish wear, my 25+ year old Desert Eagle is in better condition... certainly no nicks or gouges like this.

Due to recent issues with new Magnum Research barrels (discussed in other threads/forums) I had just kind of blamed "American Manufacturing" basically... but now seeing this Israeli barrel, I wonder if it isn't all around. Maybe the barrel is third party, and made in Israel, but not IWI?

For the cost of this barrel, I really didn't want a barrel to repair flaws on and then refinish, which is what I planned to do. It is a lot of work to strip and re-finish a barrel.

So... anyone else having issues with new barrels from Magnum Research? If so, I would like to hear what kind of issue and which barrel(s).

MrBlackCat

Edit: Update... I stopped working for a bit and decided to try mounting this barrel. It actually won't work on my gun at all. The bolt hangs up without passing through into the chamber... and when you ease it through, it seems to bottom out early and the slide will not close without a good push. (dry, no ammo) Then the slide doesn't want to open without a lot of force. When it jams in the bolt lock face, you have to remove the barrel to get the slide free again. It does this on both of my Desert Eagles.
Garbage... I have three other working (US made) .357 magnum barrels that have no binding issues at all. In total I am running nine barrels on these guns without this issue.
Here is what I have working currently...
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz121/TheMrBlackCat/Tool%20Forums/th_Desert%20Eagle%20Barrels%202017_zpssy8biyii.jpg (http://s820.photobucket.com/user/TheMrBlackCat/media/Tool%20Forums/Desert%20Eagle%20Barrels%202017_zpssy8biyii.jpg.ht ml)
This is the first and only barrel with an issue like this... is hard to believe this barrel would be made by IWI. I am leaning toward "it isn't."

This is unacceptable, and will be returned.
I have notified Magnum Research of the issue. I will keep you posted on how they respond.

[SkippyDP]

That is terrible, I hope they honour your devotion and swap it for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MrBlackCat]

Here is another image that is interesting... on the left is an American made .357 Magnum barrel (current production, bought last year) On the right is the new 10" .357 Magnum barrel, made in Israel.

That is the most dramatic difference I have seen in Desert Eagle barrels. Look at the depth of those lug passages. What does this mean? I suppose only that the barrels are different... With something as specific as a firearm, I lean far toward the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. I am just saying to myself, why would the design be changed at this point? 30 years of functionality and then a design change? No other Desert Eagle barrel I have has a lug depth/shape anything like this.

(Note: The barrels are not at the same height, so the barrel on the right appears larger, but the OD is the same on both barrels.)
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz121/TheMrBlackCat/Tool%20Forums/th_IWI%20Barrel%20Compare_zpsqibdc5cm.jpg (http://s820.photobucket.com/user/TheMrBlackCat/media/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Compare_zpsqibdc5cm.jpg.html)

I will get some video of the bolt/slide jamming the gun tomorrow and try to get it posted. The issue is extreme. Again, the barrel has to be unlocked to even clear the jam most of the time.

MrBlackCat

[Bobshouse]

Sorry, get a couple more post in so you can post pics, photobucket has gone south with all their popups. I can't even get down to your pics.

[Bawanna]

I see them, why can't you? They aren't a link they are actually in the post?

[MrBlackCat]

Sorry, get a couple more post in so you can post pics, photobucket has gone south with all their popups. I can't even get down to your pics.


I see them, why can't you? They aren't a link they are actually in the post?


Interesting... I wasn't aware of any issue with the images. I almost always post clickable thumbnails. I realize photobucket has quite the undesirable reputation for their poor business practices, but I also have many images tied to old forum posts which would be useless without their images, which I can't edit or update. So until something better comes along, I will continue to use PhotoBucket. It is a paid account for the purpose of minimizing advertisements and pop-ups. I have honestly not had any complaints for years... not sure what might be going on.

The reason I even use third party hosting is for control of images. I can't edit posts on most forums for very long. If I incorrectly upload an image, or simply decide I don't wish to share an image, I can't withdraw an uploaded image. With a service like PhotoBucket, I can remove the image and it disappears from display.

Anyway... I am sorry you (Bobshouse) are having issues with the images and or PhotoBucket. I wasn't aware of a problem.

MrBlackCat

[Bawanna]

The problem for me is allowing me up upload 3rd party images for free for years and then suddenly tell me I have to pay I forget how much but hundreds of dollars to continue plus remove the over 2000 pictures I've posted in various places.

I think there's a law against that, almost but not quite black mail. I still have pictures stored there until I take the time to transfer them to another source. I've moved a bunch but still have a long ways to go.

The word photobucket is in the same category as Obama, Clinton, Rosie ODonnell, or Oprah far as I'm concerned.

[Bobshouse]

I guess they are fine if you pay, but when they changed over to a pay for play site it went downhill. I can see the small pics posted, but if you click on them for the larger version it takes you to their site and bam, bam, bam, one popup after another.

But as far as the quality of the barrels, I agree with you, you pay for something new, you should get it. I'm sure Kahr will take care of your problem.

[MrBlackCat]

I guess they are fine if you pay, but when they changed over to a pay for play site it went downhill. I can see the small pics posted, but if you click on them for the larger version it takes you to their site and bam, bam, bam, one popup after another.
Ahh... I see. I am sorry for trouble. I too detest pop-ups. Years ago when I started using PhotoBucket, I used a pay account to avoid exactly that... I didn't want people to have to suffer through advertisements with images I wished to share. Because of the proliferation of digital image sources (cell phones primarily) the free parts of these sights could no longer be carried by the smaller and smaller percentage of people willing to pay. How photobucket went about it is at the least questionable, and borderline illegal, it was required to stay in business as they were almost sunk financially. Poor management let it get that bad though. Shady operation anyway if you research them.

Actually the issue is people want things for free. This is an unpopular argument that has put me at conflict with many, but because of people not will to pay, the "free" business models evolved. Is similar to a bubble type loan. Nothing like this is free. People who use free services are actually the problem in my opinion. I do not. There is more money in exploitation, so the companies which could have existed with a valid pay type business model, have no chance. It takes a great deal of text to explain this to people, and it doesn't really have a place on this forum or thread, so I will refrain.

Not sure how many posts enables upload of images directly to the forum, but when I reach that, I will do a test post full size and see what happens. I can resize them locally and upload them in any size/resolution. They are probably 12 megapixel images, for clarity, which is why I like the clickable thumbnails anyway.

A note relative to image hosting... AT&T has basically stamped out the local web server to individuals. I ran a home web server for 20 years at some expense and now they won't allow it where I live. Having a real local web server is control... they don't like that... "Upload to the cloud man... everyone is doing it..." yeah look at what happened with PhotoBucket and it isn't the first by far, just the largest. There is strong evidence (on conspiracy theory land) that PhotoBucket lost their data-mining contracts (with un-named entities) because of bandwidth issues and that is why the sudden change. They will fail without those contracts. Starting a valid service isn't as easy as most people outside the industry think, as I have considered just going ahead and trying to be "that guy" and attempt to start such a service. If you try to buy the kind of bandwidth it takes to start a service like PhotoBucket, it gets instant attention you don't want. There is a strange buddy system if you shoot very large with such a business, as an individual, regardless of your available resources. End of Line.


But as far as the quality of the barrels, I agree with you, you pay for something new, you should get it. I'm sure Kahr will take care of your problem.
Yes... while I have had other quality issues (presented in other posts here at KahrTalk and other Desert Eagle forums) with Magnum Research barrels of recent manufacture, they were nothing like this.

As I stated earlier, I am going to try to get some video of this failure, because it is "crazy" in my opinion. I plan to video images of my other .357 barrels being swapped and firing, then changing to this Israeli barrel to show it hang up before the bolt can penetrate the locking face when you drop the slide, without a round... so hard that you have to take the barrel loose from the frame to get the bolt un-jammed. I am still in awe at the design change from every other barrel I have, Israeli and US built, and that it doesn't work at all.

I am really unhappy with this situation. Still no word from Magnum Research, but my experience with them has always been slow (or no) response for a few days, or a canned response, then multiple follow-ups to get communication initiated. If they handle this as poorly as they did with the bad (substantially out of spec) .50AE barrel, it will probably cost them a customer/supporter.

MrBlackCat

Edit: Image Test

http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz121/TheMrBlackCat/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Compare_zpsqibdc5cm.jpg (http://s820.photobucket.com/user/TheMrBlackCat/media/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Compare_zpsqibdc5cm.jpg.html)

Ok, this seems to work full size, so I will re-post the above images. I see the popup advertisement issue is horrible on PhotoBucket now. In my defense, I don't get that from my daily use computer as the account belongs to me and advertisements are suppressed.

Anyway... sorry for the ad-bomb and here are the images in full size. Let me know if these work for everyone.
Nick that caught my attention upon removal of the barrel from its wrapper...
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz121/TheMrBlackCat/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Damage%20Nicks%2001_zpsrburhgqd.jpg (http://s820.photobucket.com/user/TheMrBlackCat/media/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Damage%20Nicks%2001_zpsrburhgqd.jpg .html)
Images from both sides of the barrel that seem to be from slipping in a machining clamp? Not sure of the cause, but sure it is unacceptable. (if the barrel would even begin to function, I could and was going to deal with this finish quality issue) It seems the quality deficiency wasn't just cosmetic however, as the barrel also won't function.
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz121/TheMrBlackCat/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Damage%20Nicks%2002_zpsktmfoadm.jpg (http://s820.photobucket.com/user/TheMrBlackCat/media/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Damage%20Nicks%2002_zpsktmfoadm.jpg .html)
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz121/TheMrBlackCat/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Damage%20Nicks%2003_zpsrmilpded.jpg (http://s820.photobucket.com/user/TheMrBlackCat/media/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Damage%20Nicks%2003_zpsrmilpded.jpg .html)

[MrBlackCat]

Still no reply to my email sent Thursday 1-11-2018 evening. Just two business days, so I will wait before my usual follow-up of a few days. Strangely, I have not ever had any explanation for this when I asked if this was standard, or what I perceive to be a delay was caused by unusually heavy service volume. Experience suggests standard. :)

Patience...

MrBlackCat

Update: Friday, 1-19-2018. Six working days without a response... as usual.

Update: Tuesday, 1-23-2018, Still no response, so I responded with a forward and follow up e-mail.

[MrBlackCat]

Update Post:

Today 1-24-2018 I received a response to my follow up email sent yesterday.

It was professional enough...

****begin paste****
Thank you for your email. I apologize for the late response as I just received your email from one of my colleagues. I took a look at your forum post and I am not sure what went wrong with the barrel and why it's in such a poor condition. I would be disappointed as well to receive that! We'd be happy to let you return that barrel. If you would like an exchange or a refund we can definitely do both at this point, whichever you'd prefer. I would have to inspect our other barrels for their condition if you would like an exchange. As of yet we haven't had anyone who had such an issue with the condition and poor fitment with these Israeli barrels. I'll also email you with a return shipping label so you can mail back the barrel. Please let me know which option you'd like to go for in terms of a refund or exchange. Again I apologize for this situation, but we're happy to get this straightened out for you. I look forward to your response.
****end paste****

I am going to try an exchange and see if this was isolated.

My concern really isn't the cosmetics, but the fact that it drags severely on my bolt... sometimes enough to lock up the slide requiring removal of the barrel from the frame to get the bolt out of the barrel breech.

It is obvious that there is pretty radical change in the locking end of these new Israeli barrels... I am wondering if my OLD Mk XIX .357 bolts are at fault... maybe this new design works fine with modern .357 bolts. Surely they wouldn't test/design these new barrels with 20 year old Mk XIX Bolts... maybe something changed just a tiny bit. It leaves extreme scrape marks on my bolts, as pictured below...

These photo's don't show the "3D-ness of these gouges in the bolt... but I circled the gouges in red. This seems to be the source of the extreme bolt drag.
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz121/TheMrBlackCat/Tool%20Forums/Desert%20Eagle%20357%20Bolt%20Scrapes%2001_zpspl6o voxk.jpg (http://s820.photobucket.com/user/TheMrBlackCat/media/Tool%20Forums/Desert%20Eagle%20357%20Bolt%20Scrapes%2001_zpspl6o voxk.jpg.html)
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz121/TheMrBlackCat/Tool%20Forums/Desert%20Eagle%20357%20Bolt%20Scrapes%2002_zpsges9 lmos.jpg (http://s820.photobucket.com/user/TheMrBlackCat/media/Tool%20Forums/Desert%20Eagle%20357%20Bolt%20Scrapes%2002_zpsges9 lmos.jpg.html)

I sure hope this isn't something to do with older Mk XIX Bolts... Maybe I can get a new barrel and find out.

I'll keep you posted.

MrBlackCat

[gb6491]

Thank you for the update.
Regards,
Greg

[MrBlackCat]

Update...

Well, today (Monday, 2-12-2018) I received the replacement barrel from Magnum Research. Cosmetically it looks fine... no issues like the other barrel. Functionally, it is the same however... non.

Most of the time, if you drop the slide, the bolt gets a couple hundred thousandths into the barrel and jams/seizes/locks up etc. I am usually able to force the slide backward hard enough to get the bolt free of the barrel, but sometimes you must pull the barrel from the frame to free it.

It will not load a round from a magazine... at all. It isn't the round hanging either, because after the bolt hangs up in the front of the barrel, you can hear the round slide in and out of the chamber.

For the curious, here is how I quick checked the issue.
First, I pulled the barrel and slide off, and I can easily, cleanly push the barrel into battery, with no frame involved.
Second, I reassembled the gun without the gas piston and recoil springs and the bolt still binds up completely.
Third, I pulled the bolt and there is no slide to barrel contact, so that isn't it.
Fourth, I pulled the extractor and replaced the bolt, and it still binds exactly the same.

I can see where a couple of the barrel lugs are gouging my bolt, so I know there is a LOT of contact...

I could send it back for a refund... but then I wouldn't be me. I am going to attempt to fix it... here is why.
1. Mk XIX .357 Magnum 10" barrels are hard to find at most any price.
2. Quality in other areas... like the gas cylinder diameter (as with all two part barrels I have, it is perfect and exactly the same diameter as my 1993 Israeli made .50AE, so no custom gas piston needed for this barrel.), the barrel fits both of my frames to perfection, and last near perfect chamber... the polish is far better than my US made current production barrels in all three calibers. Nothing to improve there. :)
3. I believe the problem is simply fit, and nothing fundamentally wrong with the barrel.

I still don't get why the design is SO different from all my other barrels, US or Israeli, ancient or modern... why is this one barrel different? WHY change from what works... the irony that the very area that is changed seems to be the problem area.

Just look at this!
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz121/TheMrBlackCat/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Compare%2002_zpsvsr5cx67.jpg (http://s820.photobucket.com/user/TheMrBlackCat/media/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Compare%2002_zpsvsr5cx67.jpg.html)
(Left to right, top row... 10" .44 Mag, 10" .357 Mag (new), 6" .357 Mag, bottom row... 10" .41 Mag[MkVII], 10" .50AE)

The point of this picture is the lug depth variation on this one barrel... especially compared to the 6" .357 to the immediate right of the problem barrel.

The first step to repair/fitting will be to clean a bolt and the barrel thoroughly, get some DyKem on them both and see where they are hitting/binding, and see where to go from there.

As this seems to be a non-isolated issue, I will post what I learn here just in case someone with the same issue has a desire to fit the barrel themselves, it might help.

The good part is that I have other working .357 Magnum barrels to compare dimensions to.

MrBlackCat

[MrBlackCat]

Update: Resolution...

As I had suspected a little, and hoped a little, the issue required only simple fitting.


I cleaned the barrel and bolt, applied DyKem and re-assembled the gun... I cycled the slide and let it jam up good a couple of times. I then removed the bolt from the slide and was presented with only two contact points, but they were substantial. A close look with a magnifier showed tiny metal shavings on the bolt. These shavings were left there by the barrel lug tips, and there is almost no gouging or damage to the bolt. The barrel material is a good bit softer than the bolt, so all is ok.


An important note... this post is referencing the replacement barrel. In the pictures above, of the bolt, you can see two places where the FIRST barrel gouged/scraped the barrel lugs... the new barrel hit EXACTLY the same. This could mean that other barrels from this batch might only need this tiny bit of fitting to work perfectly. This entire process took about an hour... except for pouring ammo through it for testing after the first and only adjustment... that took another hour.


In the image above, you can deduct which lugs were trimmed and re-polished... but here is an image marking where I removed a small amount of material.


http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz121/TheMrBlackCat/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Repair%2001_zpsxzpfufb7.jpg (http://s820.photobucket.com/user/TheMrBlackCat/media/Tool%20Forums/IWI%20Barrel%20Repair%2001_zpsxzpfufb7.jpg.html)


Basically I rounded these sharp corners with a diamond bit, then polished them smooth. I didn't remove much material really... for reference I maybe made roughly a .020 radius on the marked corners. This made 100% clearance to the bolt.


One thing I did that I do on all my barrels that this barrel did need... I used a round brush in a Dremel tool to reach behind the barrels locking lugs and polished the inside of them. They needed it. This would probably correct after a good number of rounds is run through the gun, but why not just polish them? I do this to almost all my new barrels, but the used barrels (with the exception of one) don't seem to need it.


So I took it outside, did a 9+1 and slowly fired the rounds (Winchester Super-X)... then I put 100 rounds of Aguilla through it. Flawless... and you can not limp-wrist this barrel... and I have not custom fit a gas piston for this barrel, as it didn't need it. The gas cylinder is absolutely perfect in dimension to my other Israeli made barrels.
While 110 rounds isn't a thorough test by any means, I am confident all is well with this barrel.


In with the Devils Advocate...
I am happy right now that my barrel was easy to repair. I am NOT happy about paying $500 for a barrel that first was cosmetically unacceptable, and not functional as well. Magnum Research DID apologize and took full responsibility for the barrel and offered a refund or replacement at my discretion. They even tested the replacement barrel for fit on a gun... and it didn't work... but I asked for the barrel anyway, as I was confident I could fix it.

Anyway...
Now I have what is probably the final barrel for my collection and it seems to work better than the American, current production barrels also.

So if you get one of these 10" .357 barrels and have bolt jamming issues, and don't want to sent your gun back, it might be as easy to fix as mine was... did I mention I couldn't limp wrist this barrel at all? Excellent. I will be putting some rounds through this barrel in the next few weeks, and will report back if any issues come up with function.

MrBlackCat