New cw380 first shots

[mpgo4th]

I picked up my new CW380 today. It was an anniversary present to me from my wife. I’m fully aware of the problems with this 380 but I have other guns to depend on, so I figured I’d give it a shot anyway. Ammo choices are crappy right now. I got 150 rounds of Remington umc fmj and one box of hornady critical defense. Just like everything I’ve seen online, I had many failures today. Failure to go into battery over and over. He UMC failed every two or three rounds. I had magazines that I had to hit the back of the slide every round to load it. I shot fifty rounds and the malfunctions didn’t seem to get better or worse. I loaded up the hornady and tried again. The critical defense ran perfectly. Not one bobble. Overall I’m still glad I bought this gun. I knew what I was getting into. Now my problem is do I keep shooting and only run ammo that I know works, send it to Kahr or try to file the extractor myself? I can’t decide what to do.


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[dustnchips]

Do the prep for a new Kahr sticky in the New Member forum. Then shoot another 150 rounds and see what you've got. Mine ran Remington and Winchester white box a bit rough at first, but after prep it ran perfectly.

[mpgo4th]

Do the prep for a new Kahr sticky in the New Member forum. Then shoot another 150 rounds and see what you've got. Mine ran Remington and Winchester white box a bit rough at first, but after prep it ran perfectly.

I did the prep. The only thing I haven’t done yet is leaving the slide open to relax the spring some. I’ll clean it again and leave it in the safe over night with the slide open.


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[markman]

The cause can be too much extractor tension. I don't know if you ever heard of Cylinder and Slide in Nebraska, but they'll "Radius and tension the extractor for improved feeding reliability" for $35, but of course you'll have to pay shipping both ways. I just prefer to do it myself, as it isn't that hard to do. I posted this below and in another threads. A lot of people here like to remove a little bit of metal from the pin on the extractor for more clearance of the rim cartridge. My problem with that is that when you have a cartridge with a narrow rim you'll have too much clearance. But it is another option and those that do it have good luck with it. Here's a link for that and other options.

http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?26232-Found-solution-to-FTF-and-failure-to-return-to-battery-on-CW-380

A couple of 1911 gunsmiths have told me in the past that the wrong extractor tension can cause failure to feed or extract. If it's too much, it can cause failure to feed. If it's not enough, it can cause a failer to extract. In the below video at about 2:30 it talks about it. The video also shows how they measure the tension. The second link shows a extractor tension guage set they use in the video. The extractor in the Kahr pistol is adjusted by shortening the rear pin behind the extractor spring, like previously mentioned in a post earlier. I forgot to add, for the Kahr pistols, it should be about 2lbs tension for a 9mm and about 2 1/2 lbs for the 40. One also said every Kahr pistol he ran accross with failure to feed, had way too much extractor tention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nnqKKWk2ig&app=desktop

http://www.jackweigand.com/etg.htmlThe cause is too much extractor tension. (http://www.jackweigand.com/etg.html)

[markman]

I finally found the original post I first heard about tensioning the Kahr extractor. I first read about it in 2002 in the post linked below and have since talked to a few more gunsmiths and they have all told me the same thing. In the post it starts out talking about it for a K9, but it will work on any Kahr. Instead of making a new pin, I just file the existing pin a little at a time to get the proper tension. I also radius the bottom of the extractor a little bit. I have done it on 3 Kahrs and have told a number of people who have done it with excellent results. There are numerous YouTube videos on how to take the slide rear cover off to access the rear pin. I forgot to add that I filed one of the pins too much. I was able to get 2 OEM Kahr pins from Midway for $9 shipped. Maybe this will help.

http://pistolsmith.com/kahr-pistols/7234-k9-extractor-tension.html

[yqtszhj]

Like dustinchips said you may give it a few more rounds to see what happens. If you feel good about doing the extractor mod yourself go for it. I probably would myself also.

Glad it ran the Hornady ok. Just shows its ammo sensitive and you can fix that.

I took the risk and I was fortunate and mine runs everything even slow racking the slide. Makes me wonder if its too loose but hey, as long as its working I'm not gonna complain.

Keep us posted.

[yqtszhj]

The cause can be too much extractor tension. I don't know if you ever heard of Cylinder and Slide in Nebraska, but they'll "Radius and tension the extractor for improved feeding reliability" for $35, but of course you'll have to pay shipping both ways. I just prefer to do it myself, as it isn't that hard to do. I posted this below and in another threads. A lot of people here like to remove a little bit of metal from the pin on the extractor for more clearance of the rim cartridge. My problem with that is that when you have a cartridge with a narrow rim you'll have too much clearance. But it is another option and those that do it have good luck with it. Here's a link for that and other options.

http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?26232-Found-solution-to-FTF-and-failure-to-return-to-battery-on-CW-380

A couple of 1911 gunsmiths have told me in the past that the wrong extractor tension can cause failure to feed or extract. If it's too much, it can cause failure to feed. If it's not enough, it can cause a failer to extract. In the below video at about 2:30 it talks about it. The video also shows how they measure the tension. The second link shows a extractor tension guage set they use in the video. The extractor in the Kahr pistol is adjusted by shortening the rear pin behind the extractor spring, like previously mentioned in a post earlier. I forgot to add, for the Kahr pistols, it should be about 2lbs tension for a 9mm and about 2 1/2 lbs for the 40. One also said every Kahr pistol he ran accross with failure to feed, had way too much extractor tention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nnqKKWk2ig&app=desktop

http://www.jackweigand.com/etg.htmlThe cause is too much extractor tension. (http://www.jackweigand.com/etg.html)

good post there.

[dpierce]

I purchased my CT 380 Nov 2017 after reading numerous reviews on 380 pocket guns? I wanted something small I could put in my pocket when i was running out to the store or carry with me on the motorcycle. I have a Kahr CW45 and really like it and decided on the Kahr CT380 even after reading reviews on FTF and FTE issues! I ran 100 rounds of mixed factory thru it with about 3-4 FTF and FTE every mag!! I read about the extractor mod of rounding off the bottom edge a little and did that mod and that dramatically helped a lot but still had numerous FTF and FTE that i felt made unreliable as an edc!! I then found this forum and the sticky about prepping a new Kahr!! I followed the cleaning procedure and was amazed at how much gunk i got out of the extractor cleaning hole?? I also did the 500 hand racks recommended plus a couple hundred more because the gun just felt like it was loosening up and hand racking was a lot cheaper than running 500 rounds thru it!!! I have now run an additional 200 rounds of my mixed brass reloads 50 rounds of WWB and 25 rounds of Hornady XTP thru it without any FTF or FTE!!! The plus is this little gun is accurate as heck in the 10-21 ft range and is easy to shoot!!! Looking for Kahr 9mm now to add to my collection!!

[markman]

I forgot to add in my posts above that you can check your extractor tension before you do any mods just to see if it is too much or not. It’s one way to possibly eliminate a suspected problem before you disassemble the pistol.

[Ed M]

Have 2 CW380s and a P380.

The CW380s ran Fiocchi/Perfecta about 50% reliably, but the P380 wouldn't chamber it at all.

Did the extractor mods myself, as I couldn't see asking Kahr to fix a problem that didn't exist running the recommended domestic made ammo, and the fact that I was only working on a $15 part.

Worst case scenario was that I'd have to replace the extractor if I messed something up.

All three 380s now run 100% with any ammo I feed them. It was worth it to me to do the extractor mods, as I have a pretty large stash of Perfecta 380 ammo on hand.

[mpgo4th]

Great replies guys. This has to be a record for me. Everything post was actually very helpful. On the down side now I have too many fixes and have to pick which one to try first.
Markman’s pin fix sounds the easiest and most important the cheapest to fix if I mess up. I’ll keep racking and cleaning and working it in until I figure out where to start. On the other hand, I could do nothing and just run the ammo it works 100% with.


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[mpgo4th]

Have 2 CW380s and a P380.

The CW380s ran Fiocchi/Perfecta about 50% reliably, but the P380 wouldn't chamber it at all.

Did the extractor mods myself, as I couldn't see asking Kahr to fix a problem that didn't exist running the recommended domestic made ammo, and the fact that I was only working on a $15 part.

Worst case scenario was that I'd have to replace the extractor if I messed something up.

All three 380s now run 100% with any ammo I feed them. It was worth it to me to do the extractor mods, as I have a pretty large stash of Perfecta 380 ammo on hand.

Which mod on which part of the extractor did you do?


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[markman]

If you go this route, just remember what I posted previously. That you can check your extractor tension before you do any mods just to see if it is too much or not. It’s one way to possibly eliminate a suspected problem before you disassemble the pistol. And the best thing, it won't cost you a dime!


Markman’s pin fix sounds the easiest and most important the cheapest to fix if I mess up.

[mpgo4th]

If you go this route, just remember what I posted previously. That you can check your extractor tension before you do any mods just to see if it is too much or not. It’s one way to possibly eliminate a suspected problem before you disassemble the pistol. And the best thing, it won't cost you a dime!

Wouldn’t I have to pay a gunsmith with the tools to measure it?


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[CharlieW]

[QUOTE=mpgo4th;394410]Great replies guys. This has to be a record for me. Everything post was actually very helpful. On the down side now I have too many fixes and have to pick which one to try first.
Markman’s pin fix sounds the easiest and most important the cheapest to fix if I mess up. I’ll keep racking and cleaning and working it in until I figure out where to start. On the other hand, I could do nothing and just run the ammo it works 100% with.


In another thread I reported on my CW380 experience with the Remingtom green box ammo -- the chamber was too tight to accommodate the ammo, but I have confirmed that Sig V-Crown and Hydra-Shocks run perfectly in my gun (as well as Monarch FMJ!). Tight chambers have been discussed previously in the threads. Rather than starting down the path of modifications that I am not experienced in, I am choosing to continue running the ammo that has proven to work.

Good Luck with your new CW -- I am pretty happy with mine when using compatible ammo.
Based on your experience, I will give the Critical Defense a try.

[markman]

No, I just measured it by putting a 1/4" x 2" hex head cap screw head down on my postal scale and zeroed it. Then I slowly pushed a empty case from under the extractor with the slide off the pistol and upside down. It actually should work with any pistol. I hope I explained it well enough, if not let me know and I'll try to post a pic or 2 tomorrow when I get a chance. Like they say, a picture is worth a thousand words!



Wouldn’t I have to pay a gunsmith with the tools to measure it?

[Ed M]

Which mod on which part of the extractor did you do?


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On a Kahr facebook group page, there are several Kahr employees that post frequently (including the Director of Marketing). They report that the 380 feed problems are almost always caused by two things.

Insufficient extractor to breech face clearance, and a chamber that is a thousandth or two too tight. Not a single mention of extractor tension.

I did the rounding of the bottom edge of the extractor claw (and polished it) first. It helped, but didn't solve the feed issues completely.

I then took .004" off the inside of the extractor post, resulting in an overall diameter of .015 on the post. This did the trick for me.

On all my Kahrs, I polish the entire barrel exterior, and also the chamber entrance and feed ramp.

Now, I don't have to use the slide release to chamber the first round. I can even ride the slide home, and it doesn't hang up at all. Between my three Kahr 380s, I have several thousand rounds post mods, and they all function slick and flawlessly.

Best as I can tell, this is what Kahr would do if you sent your 380 in to them for feed issues. The last one I did (P380) took all of 15 minutes to do.

[SlowBurn]

I picked up my new CW380 today. It was an anniversary present to me from my wife. I’m fully aware of the problems with this 380 but I have other guns to depend on, so I figured I’d give it a shot anyway. Ammo choices are crappy right now. I got 150 rounds of Remington umc fmj and one box of hornady critical defense. Just like everything I’ve seen online, I had many failures today. Failure to go into battery over and over. He UMC failed every two or three rounds. I had magazines that I had to hit the back of the slide every round to load it. I shot fifty rounds and the malfunctions didn’t seem to get better or worse. I loaded up the hornady and tried again. The critical defense ran perfectly. Not one bobble. Overall I’m still glad I bought this gun. I knew what I was getting into. Now my problem is do I keep shooting and only run ammo that I know works, send it to Kahr or try to file the extractor myself? I can’t decide what to do.
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Since you have other guns to depend on and don't need it right now for edc, send it in. Let them fix it, don't risk voiding the warranty. My $0.02

[markman]

Insufficient extractor to breech face clearance, and a chamber that is a thousandth or two too tight. Not a single mention of extractor tension.


Why is there even a spring in the extractor assembly if it doesn't rely on tension? Why even have a spring? Why don't they just have a fixed extractor with the "proper breech face clearance" ? That's what the spring is for, different case tolerance's and to allow the case to slide under the extractor at an angle untill it feeds into the chamber. By removing metal from the inside of the extractor pin to move it forward, you're actually reducing the spring tension. Like I mentioned previously, what happens when you get a case at the other end of the spectrum, an undersized rim. Could you be possibly setting your self up where you have too much breech face clearance? Your extractor should hold a loaded round with enough tension to keep the round in place even if you try it with the slide removed from the pistol. This is true for all pistols, not just Kahrs. I'm sure there has got to be some machinists here. Tolerance stacking, you have at least 5 components in the extractor chain. The slide, rear cover, rear pin, spring and extractor. All of them are manufactured/machined with in a certain tolerance. It is physically impossible to have all the parts the exact same size every time, even today. If many are at the small or large end of the tolerances that where the stacking becomes involved. Just look how people are getting results by just removing small amounts of metal! I would have to believe that's what causes most FTF/ FTX problems (other than a tight chamber). That's why most people don't have problems but some do.

https://www.brownells.com/aspx/learn/learndetail.aspx?lid=10261

FAILURE TO FEED
In most instances, an extractor that is adjusted too tightly (too much extractor tension) will cause a failure to feed. In this condition, the case head is not allowed to travel up, into the breech face because the rim of the cartridge never becomes fully-seated under the extractor hook.

Excessive extractor tension can also cause the extractor to dig into the cartridge rim, which is made of brass. This will cause inconsistent feeding or an intermittent feeding problem.

Refer to View “A”. This illustration shows the end of the extractor as if you were looking at the breech face from the muzzle end but it shows the extractor hook only. You will see on the left what the majority of extractor hooks are machined like. We want to radius the lower portion of the hook as shown in the illustration on the right. This area, when left with a sharp transition, can dig into brass and impede feeding.

The second problem area, View “B” is a view of the extractor from the same vantage point with the hook removed. You will see a small bevel where the case slides up the extractor face that usually has a sharp intersection. I take a small needle file and radius this intersection to smooth up the transition point.

When examining your brass you will find small dings on the rim of your brass, this is the area of the extractor that causes it. Similarly with the hook not being radiused you will find small dings in the web of your brass.

FAILURE TO EXTRACT
Failures to extract are usually related to an extractor with too little tension. With too little tension, the brass is not held securely long enough in the cycle to be properly ejected. The brass is allowed to loosely float around as the pistol cycles. The brass hits the ejector in a non-uniform manner and ejection is very random. One case may be tossed several feet, another case may just barely clear the edge of the ejection port.

[markman]

On a Kahr facebook group page, there are several Kahr employees that post frequently (including the Director of Marketing). They report that the 380 feed problems are almost always caused by two things.

Insufficient extractor to breech face clearance, and a chamber that is a thousandth or two too tight. Not a single mention of extractor tension.

Is it possible the reason some people have to send there pistol back to Kahr multiple times is because maybe there is a different problem. How about the many thousands of Kahr pistols that don't have the "updated extractor" that work just fine. I originally had one of the first MK9's before they even made the polymer pistols. Then when the polymer's came out, I had one of the first PM9's. It also had a FTF problem. It isn't just the 380's with that problem. Properly setting the extractor tension resolved the problem. I also had 2 of the first P9's, no problem with either. Then years ago I sold or traded all of them. Within the last 10 years I picked up a CM9, a CW380 and a CT380. All 3 had a FTF problem. The 380 has a so called "updated extractor" but what about the 9's that people have a problem with. Design flaw, I don't think so, too many of them out there that work just fine, including some of my previous owned ones. All of them cured with proper setting of the extractor tension. Now no offense to any body that works for a living, because that's I do, but I don't tend to get my info from a "Director of Marketing" or a paid employee who has to do what they are told to do. I try to get my info from someone who actually runs the business. Who's knowledge and skills actually keep them and their families fed and earn them a reputation in the business. Through out the years talking to many gunsmiths I have never heard them refer to "proper breech face clearance" for FTF problems until I got here. Every single one pointed to the extractor tension as a place to start first. YMMV

[finpro]

I bought a P9 when they first came out and it had extraction issues. I communicated with Kahr and the gunsmith, Larry Meyer, informed me that extractor tunnel hardware might the cause by putting incorrect tension on the extractor. He suggested returning the gun, but I explained I had owned an MK9 and was familiar with working on Kahrs and thought I could fix it myself with the replacement parts and did not want to be without the gun for the estimated turnaround time. He kindly sent me all of the parts involved, including a new polished extractor, plus a replacement recoil spring. Replacing the parts instantly solved the extraction problems. Extractor tension can be a source of problems, as it apparently was in my case some 15 years ago.
There can be other possible causes for problems, of course. Someone told me he never made the same mistake twice, as he quickly went on to bigger and better mistakes. Maybe that is the case here.

[mpgo4th]

The extractor tunnel hardware is cheap. I’d consider ordering and replacing that first before grinding any metal. I’d the have spare for when I mess up grinding which is inevitable.


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[mpgo4th]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180122/82efb0d8e039971a74a6420a075ee962.jpg

I ordered all new factory extractor hardware from midway. With shipping it was under $8. I didn’t get the spring because I figured I can make the length work with the hard parts. I can’t wait to measure them against the original one to see how big a variance there is. If they are shorter overall I’ll just install them and try it without grinding.


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[markman]

I ordered all new factory extractor hardware from midway. With shipping it was under $8. I didn’t get the spring because I figured I can make the length work with the hard parts. I can’t wait to measure them against the original one to see how big a variance there is. If they are shorter overall I’ll just install them and try it without grinding.

If you do have to shorten the rear pin just file a little at a time. You really don't have to remove that much metal at all, you'll be surprised. I don't recommend messing with the front pin at all. If you have never taken the rear slide plate off a striker fired pistol before, be careful. If you don't, you have springs, striker guides and pins all over the place.

[mpgo4th]

Thanks for the tip. I only got the front one thinking that if the overall measurements are shorter, I’d be able to install it all without trimming.


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[mpgo4th]

Markman, to clarify did you reshape your extractor at all or just change the tension on it?


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[markman]

Markman, to clarify did you reshape your extractor at all or just change the tension on it?

Actually I read your question wrong the first time. I radius the bottom of the extractor a little bit. Just enough so it doesn't bite into the brass case. I believe there is a YouTube video where a guy shows how to do it on a Kahr pistol.

[mpgo4th]

Thanks. Also when you get time if you could post the photos of how you used the scale to measure extractor tension.


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[markman]

I’ll try to get that tomorrow.

[dsk]

I reduced the extractor tension in my P380 by clipping about three coils off the spring. Not saying that's the best course of action, but it worked for me. I also slightly rounded the bottom edge of the extractor hook where it was very sharp. To date the only ammo that still gives me any FTF issues is Fiocchi, and since that is a known problem child in Kahr .380s I simply shoot it in my Glock 42 instead.

[skiflydive]

I've had a P380 for a few years that functions fine. I recently bought a CW380 that had feed issues right out of the box after I did the regular prep...the cartridge rims weren't sliding up the breech face. I rounded the bottom of the extractor which helped a little and filed the extractor post which helped a little more. Still had feed issues though. I had read in this forum about shortening the rear extractor pin to reduce the tension. I took the P380 apart and measured the extractor pins and spring with a caliper for a total stack length of 1.878". The same parts in the CW380 measured 1.913" for a difference of .035". I took .020" off the back pin reducing the total stack to 1.893" and now the CW380 runs like a champ.

[mpgo4th]

Great help guys thanks. I’m going to tackle mine today. If I mess up I have part coming already.


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[Ed M]

This has been an interesting thread, to say the least.

Thanks to some fine detective work by markman, the root cause of many Kahr 380 feed problems may have been identified.

It'd be a lot easier to identify "problem" guns during the assembly process by simply measuring the extractor tension.

Kahr could easily set up a measuring system, and use it for both the initial assembly process, and also for their repair system process.

Certainly would be easier to modify the rear pin, than messing with extractor dimensions.

Perhaps Kahr should be made aware of this information - it might save a lot of headaches for both customers and Kahr themselves.

[markman]

This has been an interesting thread, to say the least.

Thanks to some fine detective work by markman, the root cause of many Kahr 380 feed problems may have been identified.

It'd be a lot easier to identify "problem" guns during the assembly process by simply measuring the extractor tension.

Kahr could easily set up a measuring system, and use it for both the initial assembly process, and also for their repair system process.

Certainly would be easier to modify the rear pin, than messing with extractor dimensions.

Perhaps Kahr should be made aware of this information - it might save a lot of headaches for both customers and Kahr themselves.

I beleive this has been posted here long before I arrived. All the 1911 gunsmiths have been doing this for ages. This is also a problem with some Kahr 9's and 40's also. And like I said earlier, this might not be the only problem, but I would start here first since it is so easy to check.

[markman]

Thanks. Also when you get time if you could post the photos of how you used the scale to measure extractor tension.

I hope this helps. I have an easier time doing it than try to explain it to someone else. I'm sure there are other ways to do it, but I just tried to use what I had available to get the job done. I used my CM9 for the pics but it will work on any Kahr or any other pistol.


I get a spent case with the primer removed and slide it up under the extractor from the bottom. I center the primer pocket over the striker hole so it sits about where it normally should when it's chambered.

http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15246&stc=1http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15247&stc=1


I stand a 1/4" x 2" hex head cap screw head down on my postal scale and zero it.

http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15248&stc=1

Then I slowly pushed the empty case from under the extractor with the slide off the pistol and upside down while watching the read out. It has to be slow & steady. I also try to keep the bolt as close to the breech face and under the rim as much as possible so it doesn't bind the case for a more accurate reading. It took me a few tries before I got the hang of it, but when you get the feel, you'll get consistent readings.

http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15249&stc=1http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15250&stc=1

Personally, I would check this before I dissembled any pistol to modify it. If somebody here sees an easier or better way to do it, I'm all ears.

[Ed M]

Yeah, but you brought the info to the surface again, and added some good info as well. You at least deserve a "well done".

Just out of curiosity, you mentioned that you took too much material off the back of a pin. Did you actually test this and get FTE problems, or just go by your tension measurements?

I really like the idea of being able to do a simple tension check (say 2 lb ideal on a 380) versus just blindly grinding away on stuff.

[markman]

Just out of curiosity, you mentioned that you took too much material off the back of a pin. Did you actually test this and get FTE problems, or just go by your tension measurements?

The tension was way too low so I just started with another rear pin. I didn't want to even try it and if it failed go through the whole process again for a $2 pin.


I really like the idea of being able to do a simple tension check (say 2 lb ideal on a 380) versus just blindly grinding away on stuff.

That's also the reason I won't just measure the whole assembly and compare it to others. Like I explained earlier with the tolerance stacking. Your not taking into account the spring rates, pocket depth in the rear slide cover, the location of the pocket machined in the slide where the extractor pivots, etc etc etc. It's too dam easy just to measure the tension. On the tension, I try to get it as close as possible without getting anal. My wife says I have tendencies to go that way, go figure.

[Ed M]

IMHO, this thread deserves "sticky" status. Too much good info to just get lost in the shuffle, so to speak.

[dustnchips]

Great pictures and description Marksman. If I ever run into trouble I will certainly try this. As an aside, when I was doing my prep work I smoothed and polished the breach face on my CW380. After what Marksman has posted I can see where this might have reduced the friction between the casing and the shell base. Shortening the back pin to get the right tension makes sense, but what's done is done and mine works fine.

[Bawanna]

IMHO, this thread deserves "sticky" status. Too much good info to just get lost in the shuffle, so to speak.


Done!

[markman]

Great pictures and description Marksman. If I ever run into trouble I will certainly try this.

I'd appreciate if anyone with a proper feeding pistol would take the time to measure and post there tension readings. It might be helpful for me and others for that valuable info just to compare. Like I'm try to stress, this may not be the only issue, but it cured the problem in all 3 of mine. Thanks in advance.

[mpgo4th]

This has been an interesting thread, to say the least.

Thanks to some fine detective work by markman, the root cause of many Kahr 380 feed problems may have been identified.

It'd be a lot easier to identify "problem" guns during the assembly process by simply measuring the extractor tension.

Kahr could easily set up a measuring system, and use it for both the initial assembly process, and also for their repair system process.

Certainly would be easier to modify the rear pin, than messing with extractor dimensions.

Perhaps Kahr should be made aware of this information - it might save a lot of headaches for both customers and Kahr themselves.


Kahr is aware. I spoke with Rob in customer service about repairing this issue myself instead of sending it in. He told me that they have relayed this information to the engineers multiple times and they are waiting for a design change to come along. I was told that extractor clearance and chamber tolerances are the main problems with the 380's. CW and P series.

[mpgo4th]

I'd appreciate if anyone with a proper feeding pistol would take the time to measure and post there tension readings. It might be helpful for me and others for that valuable info just to compare. Like I'm try to stress, this may not be the only issue, but it cured the problem in all 3 of mine. Thanks in advance.

Done. I performed the adjustment just like you did in the photos. Before disassembly I was getting 2 pounds 2 ounces to 2 pounds 4 ounces tension on the extractor assembly. This gun wouldn't chamber Remington using the slide release. I removed the back cover and the rear extractor pin. I measured the length a 0.438 inches. I used a flat file layed on my desk and my fingers holding the pin to rub back and forth on the file. Every three or four passes I rotated the pin to keep it as true to flat as I could. I removed .020 of an inch for a new overall length of 0.418 on the rear pin. While apart I used 240 grit sand paper to knock the point off the extractor bottom itself. Very little was done to the extractor, just shaped up the point. I reassembled to check it. Now on the scale I get 1 pound 11 ounces to 1 pound 12 ounces tension. I loaded a mag of the Remington problem ammo. I can now hand rack and eject the whole mag with easy. I haven't got to live fire yet but the chambering is so much improved that I'm sure it can't be any worse. Thanks to all that help and Markman your details and pictures made the difference.

[markman]

Kahr is aware. I spoke with Rob in customer service about repairing this issue myself instead of sending it in. He told me that they have relayed this information to the engineers multiple times and they are waiting for a design change to come along. I was told that extractor clearance and chamber tolerances are the main problems with the 380's. CW and P series.

That's the problem, it's not extractor clearance like they keep saying, it's extractor tension. Two entirely different things! They're relaying the wrong info. Oh well.

[mpgo4th]

Update. I just went out and shot 112 rounds through my CW 380. All ammo function 100% including 50 rounds of the Remington UMC that was jamming horribly my first time out. I appreciate all the help on this repair and I’m very glad I tried to fix it myself instead of sending it back to the factory. I will continue to shoot and update but in my opinion this firearm is fixed


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[erichard]

That's the problem, it's not extractor clearance like they keep saying, it's extractor tension. Two entirely different things! They're relaying the wrong info. Oh well.

Would be good to pin this down (so to speak), which it is, or do either accomplish a similar goal albeit from different strategies. Shortening the rear extractor pin would be preferable as it is easier to do and not make a mistake. Also cheaper to replace I imagine. I did modify my extractor, and it does now work, but I could see how I could just as easily have buggered it up by changing the geometry, taking off too much etc. I was venturing a bit far off my reservation doing that one. Plus if all Kahr has to do is install shorter rear pins, it should be a very low cost fix for them to implement.

It might be interesting to do a blind trial on problem ammo, same gun but using a modified extractor with normal rear pin, and then secondly a modified rear pin with a normal extractor. See which one produced the most failures to feed. The problem with the experiment however is that there is no real standardized way to modify the extractor, especially if you're not a machinist/gunsmith.

In the end, though, if the shortened rear pin works 100% for everybody's problem gun, then clearly that is good enough. Probably won't get that result universally but maybe in large numbers.

[mpgo4th]

Just wanted to update the forum on my repair. I have fired another 50 rounds of ammo through this cw380. This time it was my carry mag of critical defense and a box of federal American eagle fmj. All fired and ejected 100%. I now have 162 trouble free rounds through this gun since adjusting the extractor tension. Love this little gun.


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[500c]

in my case (p380), 4yrs old, 1700 rounds, $1500 invested in ammo, range time, and gun, and three trips to the factory, Kahr is now claiming that i (and my wife) are allowing 'too much muzzle fli/rise) when shooting. so it's now 'blame the shooter' (you can see more of this in another thread).

this is possibly true, because the 2 vids they sent me has an employee successfully firing one, and his form has almost zero muzzle flip.

otoh, it's implausible because i have 45 yrs of experience, my wife 20, with over a dozen guns (some v tight, eg a les baer premier iI, of course it's a 45) and never ever a single one with these problems. nada.

anyway, i asked them to tell me in writing that their guns (at least 380's) will NOT function properly if one allows 'too much muzzle jump' (however much that is). try to imagine being in a 'situation' with this EDC and having to ask the bad guy to stand still while you check your grip etc...right?

bottom line after all the time and money and frustration: if this is actually true of this gun, i would never have gone down this road. not.

[dustnchips]

500c, I have trouble believing the muzzle flip explanation Kahr gave you since you are an experienced shooter. If you are curious about the truth of it you could have a couple of other shooters try it. For the amount of effort it would take to shorten the pin that presses against the extractor spring I would certainly give it a try. You are so far into the gun that it would be worth it. If it cures the problem and you still won't trust the gun you can at least sell it as a functioning gun and recoup a bit of your investment without feeling you cheated someone. I have a CW380 that gave me some problems the first 100 rounds and has now been 100% for over 2000 rounds. They are a great size for a pocket. Good luck.

[500c]

thanks dust i too have a hard time with kahr's 'explanation', thus my sarcasm, my wife, also an experienced shooter, has had the same probs with it.

as for the pin, my reluctance stems from the fact that they have changed so much, including the extractor twice, and they see the myriad compaints, and service them extensively (daily, hundreds overall)..it's just so hard to believe that they have overlooked something so simplle. follow?

i hear your reasoing though and it surely makes some sense. i'll consider it before sending it back again.

[500c]

makes sense. good 4u

[500c]

shot my cm9 yest. flawless. hard to believe that kahr made both guns