PM45 Failure to Feed Problems

[NWKahrguy]

Hi Kahrtalk,
I'm new to this forum and this is my first post. I read the sticky about the C/P series 45 on the "newbie" subforum, and while I learned a lot, none of it applied to my issues (at least the way I understand things).

I bought a PM45 and it came with 2x5rd mags, and 1x6rd mag. I locked the slide back and loaded up the mags and left them like that for a few days to loosen up the springs. First day at the range was a disaster. 90% of the time, the first round would not even chamber. This happened with all three mags. I was using the slide stop per the instructions and not the "slingshot" method. I checked the "stripper" per the newbie sticky and its not touching the bullet casing. There is the "notch" in the slide. Ammo was all new 230g ball, WWB, Blazer Brass, Federal American Eagle.

I went home and took apart the 2x5rd mags, cleaned them up well, and lubed the springs with silicone spray. I left the 6rd mag untouched. A couple days later, I went back to the range with only the 5rd mags. This time things were a bit better. But still continuous failure to feed, double feeds, etc...probably 1-2 FTF per mag. I eventually noticed that it appeared that the mag was dropping ever so slightly out of the mag well. I thought that perhaps I was accidentally hitting the mag release button due to recoil. The gun cycled fine when fired one-handed.

Then back at home, I noticed something strange. The 2x5rd mags won't properly seat into the mag well if the gun is cocked. What I mean is suppose the gun is empty and has no mag in it and you rack the slide to cock it. Neither of the mags will seat unless the trigger is pulled. That doesn't seem right. FWIW, THE 6rd mag seats just fine in all conditions. I'll have to clean it and re-try it at the range.

Any ideas?

[Bawanna]

Well at this point all I can say is we're here for you and we'll get this thing running one way or another. Wiser folks than me will be along but I'm not getting the mags not seating unless the trigger is pulled. Rack the slide, insert mag and no go? Pulling the trigger does nothing to change the way the mag and the top round are hitting the bottom of the slide.
It's much easier to lock the slide back, insert the mag and then release the slide as you say you were doing. After a bit there should be no issue just pulling and releasing the slide as long as you don't ride the slide and let it go with full force.

The mags do take some effort to lock in properly and this could be part of the issue.
Apparently there's a little extra space in the 6rd mag that lets the cartridges move down a bit to allow seating it when the slide is in battery.

I'm perplexed at this point and shall ponder some. The smarter fella's should be along before you know it.

Glad you found us.

[NWKahrguy]

[QUOTE=Bawanna;396133]Well at this point all I can say is we're here for you and we'll get this thing running one way or another. Wiser folks than me will be along but I'm not getting the mags not seating unless the trigger is pulled. Rack the slide, insert mag and no go?


Correct. It perplexes me as well. Those 5 rounders should seat freely in the gun, especially if they're empty. When I was shooting at the range, I was slamming them home, but now I realize perhaps they were never 100% seating, which would explain the dropping issue and the FTF. Now that I'm here sitting in my office in peace and quiet, I'm slamming the mags, and they seat maybe 2 out of 5 times. I just noticed that the 5 rounders don't drop free. Me thinks maybe the 5ers are out of spec. I can't believe I didn't think of that before.

[Bawanna]

Ok, now we're gaining on it. Most likely there's something haywire with the mag catch itself or perhaps the base plate is a little too high on the mag.
Insert a mag making sure it's locked in and see if there's any gap between the top of the base plate and the frame of the gun.

It might be some of the polymer on top needs to be removed. I'd also try pushing the mag release in a bit while pushing the mag in to see if that helps.

The fact that they don't want to drop free make me think the base plates are too high putting pressure on the release.

If they are starting to drop but just won't drop free, I'd stick them in a vise and ever so gently squeeze them up top by the feed lips just a tad.

That usually make they drop like eggs through a hen. If the mags were not seated that most definitely would have a negative effect on the feeding as well.

Play some more and report back. I'm headed home now. These 15 minute commutes are brutal.

[NWKahrguy]

The base plates are not hitting the frame. I had read about that and just for fun, I trimmed down of the baseplates (poorly) with a Dremel. If I insert a 5rd mag and wiggle the catch back and forth as you suggested, it'll seat the magazine, but not with that wonderfully assuring "click." This time around, the mags now drop free most of the time. I'm pretty positive its seated all the way when I manipulate the mag catch. Kahr is sending me a new mag catch, so hopefully that'll help. If not, I'll try to get a new mag. Hopefully between the two, it'll solve the FTF, so I don't have to send it in. I've read a lot of threads, most of them are a few years old or more, and at that time Kahr seemed to be sending out return labels. I talked to Kahr last week and they want me to pay for the trip over, which is almost $90 FedEx/UPS overnight from OR to MA.

I should be getting the new catch on Friday and I'll report back. Thank you for the help.

[DJK11]

I have or had two PM45's, early and current versions. Had the same mag issue with the current version when it was new. Five rnd were difficult to seat. After a couple dozen insertions the issue cleared. Kahrs are very tight when new, some are tighter than others.

[NWKahrguy]

I have or had two PM45's, early and current versions. Had the same mag issue with the current version when it was new. Five rnd were difficult to seat. After a couple dozen insertions the issue cleared. Kahrs are very tight when new, some are tighter than others.

I did that today, cycling the mag in and out, no difference yet. Did your PM 45s run reliably? I've never had so many malfunctions with any other firearm. I really want this gun to work.

[DJK11]

Of my two PM45's I've run more than 15k through them. My edc for eight years. Just sold the early version with more than 10k rounds and it's still tight. The best subcompact 45 made.

will the mags seat with the slide retracted?
the top round in the 5 rnd has less slop= down movement in the mag compared to the 6rnd. This takes more force to seat the 5 rnd.

[NWKahrguy]

[QUOTE=

will the mags seat with the slide retracted?
the top round in the 5 rnd has less slop= down movement in the mag compared to the 6rnd. This takes more force to seat the 5 rnd.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the 5rds do seat with a nice audible click with the slide open. However, with mine, the mags weren't seating if the slide was closed, even if empty. Just yesterday, one of the 5rds finally began to seat with the slide closed (without wiggling the catch), as you'd alluded would eventually happen.

I'll probably take it for another test run in the next few days. I'll report back my results. Thanks for the help.

[NWKahrguy]

Well, now I have a new problem with the new slide catch. It seemed to work for about two minutes, but now it doesn't. I have to really slam the mags in and it makes this "thunk" noise, which is what was happening on my first range trip. When I release the slide on a loaded mag, it fails to feed the first round. I study it closely and realize that the "stripper" is on top of the bullet instead of behind it, exactly like in the CW45 sticky. So, I just re-installed the old mag catch. But now it happens with the old one (again). I know realize this is what was probably causing the FTF on my first trip out. These pistols are very tight and finicky. Maybe, I'll need to get that "stripper" beveled.

[DJK11]

If the mag is seated and slide locked back AND the stripper is on top of the round the slide is not retracting fare enough. The beveled front edge should be there, it's not a large bevel just not a sharp 90 edge. The non bevel affected the early models.

Remove a mag spring and install the mag, does it seat properly?
Load 2 rounds in a mag and test it, try 4 rounds.
Problems with multiple mags is perplexing.

Wost case you'll have to sell it to me. I'm down to one pm45.

[NWKahrguy]

If the mag is seated and slide locked back AND the stripper is on top of the round the slide is not retracting fare enough. The beveled front edge should be there, it's not a large bevel just not a sharp 90 edge. The non bevel affected the early models.

Remove a mag spring and install the mag, does it seat properly?
Load 2 rounds in a mag and test it, try 4 rounds.
Problems with multiple mags is perplexing.

Wost case you'll have to sell it to me. I'm down to one pm45.

I just might sell it to you. My hand is still numb and tingling from shooting it. It might not be the right gun for me.

[kahrbrian]

Maybe Kahr has someone in CS that knows how to examine the gun, test fire it, observe, see things first hand, fix it, and verify the fix with more firing?

[NWKahrguy]

I got my PM45 back yesterday from Kahr and took it to the range today. The work order said they replaced the striker spacer. BTW, when I spoke to customer service on the phone, I was told that I had to pay postage to send it in. However, when I filled out the online work order request, a label was emailed to me. So Kahr paid shipping both ways.

I shot 150 rounds of 230g ball: 50 rounds Blazer Brass, 50 rounds mix of BB, WWB, Sig, and Federal, and 50 rounds of Perfecta (that's what they had at the range). The gun doesn't like Winchester so I'm done with that. It chewed thru the other brands quite well. It's a significant improvement.

I did have 4 or 5 failure to feed when chambering a full 5 rd mag. As DJK11 said, that first bullet is tricky. And sometimes, no matter how hard I seat the magazine, the rim of the case is underneath the stripper instead of in front of it. However, once the first round is chambered there were no further FTF or FTE while shooting. Also, if I put one round in the mag, drop the slide, then load up 5 full rounds, I have no issues.

I didn't test the 6 rd mag because I couldn't find it. I'll ask Kahr about a replacement magazine. All in all, it's a major improvement.

[Bawanna]

If your finding rounds under the stripper instead of in front, I'd bevel that leading edge a bit if it isn't already or a bit more if it is a little bit.

That was common for awhile but that was long ago. Easy to do, takes very little time.

At slide lock the slide just isn't quite far enough back to pick up the round. A proper sling shot with full rearward travel would get r dun, just like actual firing.

[NWKahrguy]

If your finding rounds under the stripper instead of in front, I'd bevel that leading edge a bit if it isn't already or a bit more if it is a little bit.

That was common for awhile but that was long ago. Easy to do, takes very little time.

At slide lock the slide just isn't quite far enough back to pick up the round. A proper sling shot with full rearward travel would get r dun, just like actual firing.


You know infinitely more about Kahr than I do, but in the owner's manual they recommend using the slide release to chamber the first round of a magazine. I would think therefor that the round should be picked up? I might be missing though? I'm only curious to understand more, not trying to say that you're wrong.

[Bawanna]

Your right in that Kahr recommends using the slide stop BUT for awhile they neglected to bevel the front of that stripper. Many weren't beveled at all.

This gave what came to be know and the Wyntrout crunch tick where the round was stuck under the stripper and wouldn't pick up.

Lock your slide back and load a mag with a round or two in. See if it goes right in front of the stripper or stays under.

When a proper slingshot is performed the slide actually goes back a bit more than the slide lock position. This usually allows it to pick up the round but back when they neglected the bevel it sometimes didn't work even then.

Kahr recommends the slide stop method because many many folks short stroke the sling shot. They are stiff and make a sling shot difficult for many.

The slide stop is easier. I generally do that but all my Kahrs (3, big collection) would sling shot right out of the box.

In summary to this dictionary length monologue, beveling that stripper (doesn't take much) just gives you a little more edge.

[NWKahrguy]

Yes, I read about the beveling in the sticky. I'm a little hesitant to do it myself. I wish there was an actual write-up or how-to- video as opposed to just the before and after pic. Maybe its time for a trip to the gunsmith.

Thanks for the advice. I'll let you know how it goes.

[gb6491]

Yes, I read about the beveling in the sticky. I'm a little hesitant to do it myself. I wish there was an actual write-up or how-to- video as opposed to just the before and after pic. Maybe its time for a trip to the gunsmith.

Thanks for the advice. I'll let you know how it goes.
From what I wrote in the sticky:
" I slightly changed the angle that the slide is beveled to where the rim of the round contacts it.
In the photo below, I stoned the bevel so that the tailing edge of it is moved further rearward (red arrow). I did not change the starting point of the bevel (green line)"
https://s14.postimg.cc/47idkgnj5/6nvam9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

To re-enact that :)
My slide had only a slight, narrow bevel. The case rim could still sit on the flat part behind bevel.
https://s14.postimg.cc/iqpim1ofl/image.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
I widened the bevel by changing it's angle. I did this with a diamond stone/file, but a regular file will probably do.
https://s14.postimg.cc/5ch13vwwh/giphy_1.gif (https://postimages.org/)
I did not alter where the bevel started in regards to the breach face on my gun, but upon reflection I think it's only critical that you do not go up(down?) the breech face so far that the rail cannot strip rounds from the magazine.
https://s14.postimg.cc/evm4jai2p/image.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
Regards,
Greg

[NWKahrguy]

Thank you Greg. I took the pistol apart last night, and I can see that the edge of the stripper is goobered, probably from inserting the mags with such force. I don't feel too nervous to take a file to it now.

I took it out today for a little more trigger time. I had found the 6 rd mag last night and it was full with Sig ball ammo. So I shot that first and had a FTE on the fourth round. I then shot a box of Federal with no malfunctions. I shot a box of Remington UMC with no malfunctions but I did have a faulty round. I pulled the trigger, and the sound was muffled, almost no recoil, the casing ejected down range of the muzzle, and the slide didn't lock back (it was the last round in the mag). At first I thought it was a squib, but the bullet did clear the muzzle.

Things are getting better, and I'm really liking this pistol. I should also mention that I've shot 3.5 boxes of hollow points with zero issues (even when I first got the gun). Its so easy to carry. I also tried the slingshot method per Bawanna's recommendation, and had no issues. :Amflag2:

[NWKahrguy]

Just an update. I took the PM45 to the range today and shot 3 or 4 mags of JHP and maybe close to a box of ball. Zero issues. So I'm now in the 500-600 round range and the pistol appears to have smoothed out.