The barrels - what IS the real deal?

[kahrbrian]

Folks: I really don't see any details out there as to whether the 'premium' Lothar barrels make ANY difference in accuracy (or anything else for that matter).

All I ever see from reviewers is that they THINK there is a difference at longer range. Even "Amy" does the Kahr 200 yard shot with a value line pistol. IS there any difference that has been demonstrated?

Thanks.

[DJK11]

The BG or target won't see any difference but in laboratory tests there may be. I always purchase the P series. Extra mags included, dovetail sights and elitist attitude.

[b4uqzme]

I've owned both. They shot the same. But I never tried it at 200 yards. ;)

[CPTKILLER]

I found that they do with my own shooting. It is marginal but noticeable.

[b4uqzme]

I found that they do with my own shooting. It is marginal but noticeable.

I don't doubt you but I do find that surprising. I guess it depends on the shooter. I'm not a good enough shooter for there to show any noticeable result difference, if any.

[kahrbrian]

I COULD have picked up a TP9 cheaper, but I sprung for the Tig ST9 instead - the finish is nice and its looks way cool. I do think the front serrations cool and likely useful.

And... I don't see the barrel as a 'lesser' thing in any case,and can find NO evidence otherwise.

[ripley16]

The differences between premium and lower grade Kahr barrels may be in their life span, as polygonal barrels are reputed to last longer, and in their ease of cleaning. The cleaning factor is one reason I like polygonal barrels personally. The steel is also different between the two classes of barrel and that too may extend the life.

The other difference between premium and other grades is in the steel used to make the slides. The price factor increase for premium Kahrs does have some quality reasons other than sight dovetail cuts, and an extra mag, (or two).

I imagine the accuracy is essentially the same or close enough for most users. Velocity differences are negligible.

[berettabone]

Way to many factors involved..................................I say, if it makes you feel better, get the poly barrel. As has been mentioned, there are more extras besides just the barrel in the premium lineup.

[kahrbrian]

I primarily wanted to focus on barrels on this thread. From this, and other searches I would conclude that there is no discernible difference. I NEVER hear results - only speculation.

Barrel life on a carry gun will not render a difference. I'll never shoot more than a couple thousand rounds, and the difference for polygonal rifling would not be seen for several thousand.

I had NO idea the slides on the premium guns had different metallurgy. Have a link for that? Thanks.

I would like dovetailed sights, BUT, the C's are double staked and I'd only change the front if ever - and replacing the front sight on these is easier than using a sight pusher.

Didn't want to turn this into a Premium vs. Value line thread, but...

[Bawanna]

I've never heard that the slides are made of different metallurgy. Just less machining and cosmetics on the value line.

I've often thought what a man I would be to completely wear out a carry gun. I'm not sure it can be done.

[kahrbrian]

And BTW - CZs have always been conventionally rifled, and have been JUST as accurate as HKs and better than Glocks which have polygonal rifling. (Leaving out P7s which are a whole nuda game).

[Ed M]

Was told by Kahr that all slides and barrels in both the value series and premium series are made of 416 stainless steel.

[kahrbrian]

Was told by Kahr that all slides and barrels in both the value series and premium series are made of 416 stainless steel. This I absolutely believe - no reason to do otherwise. Thanks!

[ripley16]

I had NO idea the slides on the premium guns had different metallurgy. Have a link for that? Thanks.

...

A link on the Kahr website take one to a recent NRA Rifleman article in which the statement that the CW line is not made from 416 steel.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/2/21/kahr-firearms-steering-its-own-market/

Can't recall where the barrel difference info is from but it's basic context was that "C" lines are not from Lothar Walther stock. I don't believe Lothar Walther specifically says what their barrels are except to say "proprietary metal".

[Ed M]

Funny - that article was what prompted me to ask Kahr.

On the "old" website, I read somewhere that it was indeed 416 stainless for both.

I tend to agree with the person I spoke with at the mothership, as that article also states that the value series barrels are not coated - they clearly are.

[Bobshouse]

I shoot a lot of lead, so I prefer the rifled barrel.

[kahrbrian]

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/2/21/kahr-firearms-steering-its-own-market/

this article is bogus. The Kahr site says the C line of pistols use 416 stainless - ALL Kahr pistols have the same quality steel in the slide. And as pointed out, there is a coating on the value line barrels.

And, no one has shown a difference in accuracy or longevity. If one was CHF, and one wasn’t there would be a difference I would immediately understand. Words like “match grade” are meaningless.

[DJK11]

About barrel coating, my older P series barrels are very highly polished to a gloss sheen but my TP45 with a BOD one year ago has a mat finished barrel as does the replacement barrel on a P380. I'm referring to the exterior finish. The ramp and rifleing are polished.

[kahrbrian]

My older PM9 has a matte barrel coating. I thought this was actually nickel? I cannot find a recent source for it.

I will summarize what I think so far:

The barrels are different in that they are not polygonal and are not Lothar "match grade". By all reports, there is NO discernible difference in performance. In fact, I've seen some excellent results from C series. Material is likely the same. So, to most barrels are a wash. (For some who shoot lead, value series is actually preferable).

As for the premium guns. Slides are the same in material/quality. SS are MIM vs. milled. one or two mags vs. 3. I'll have to say that my old PM 9 only came with 2 mags. New S series have 2. Sights are not dovetailed in the front.

[ripley16]

OK... made me look into the slide material question. I was wrong. The Kahr site clearly states that the slides of both the Premium and Value lines are made from the same 416 stainless.

[Bawanna]

OK... made me look into the slide material question. I was wrong. The Kahr site clearly states that the slides of both the Premium and Value lines are made from the same 416 stainless.

Never ever admit your wrong, just place the blame on somebody else, or post it on the internet, then it will be the truth.

Tell everybody that's what Jocko told you.

I got a text from him on my wife's phone, how he got that number is a mystery to me. Some interesting information.
I'm dying to share but have to make sure it's ok to let the cat out of the sack. No his sheep isn't pregnant again.

[Ed M]

My thoughts on the barrels:

I have no proof, and no one at Kahr will admit it, but I bet that Walther does the rifling on ALL Kahr barrels.

The barrels are made from a piece of 3" diameter 416 stainless bar stock. Walther just bores and machines the rifling. Polygonal for the premium series, standard land and groove for the value series.

These 3" diameter rifled blanks then go to Kahr to be machined down to the final shape. Kahr likely doesn't even do that in house. There's a video on youtube of a Kahr barrel being machined, and it isn't from Kahr.

After machining, they get nickle plated - also not likely being done by Kahr. All Kahr probably does in the manufacturing process is polish up the chamber, bore and feed ramp in house.

When I asked about this at the mothership, they wouldn't give me an answer - they just smiled. I wanted to see the production line, but alas, no joy.

The days of manufacturing an entire gun in house are pretty much gone, IMO.

[SlowBurn]

Gunblast reviewed each gun (years apart) and measured velocities. You can google if curious. The velocities varied a lot between different cartridges. However for the "same loads" I counted 3 where the P380 was faster, and 2 where the CW380 was faster. Since the two reviews were years apart, I suspect it had more to do with factors such as air temp and humidity, and different lots of the "same" ammo, than with the barrel.

All I can say is I've owned both the P380 and the CW380 and they shoot the same for me. Best shooting guns that size I've ever tried (and I've tried a lot of pocket 380s) but I can't tell any difference in function between them.

[b4uqzme]

I found some velocity data...not much difference...but there is some difference. Still nothing about accuracy though...

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/rifling.html

[kenemoore]

To me.... The major difference is in the fit and finish. I think the P series gets a little more secondary work, parts are not as rough, sharp edges removed..etc.. Just my opinion.
In my un-scientific tracking of complaints on this board, the P's seem to have less issues. But, it could be because less are sold.

[kahrbrian]

Read some older posts that concluded the poly rifling did not make a difference in performance. It only really makes it easier to clean, which also may give it longer Service life.

[CCHGN]

I've often thought what a man I would be to completely wear out a carry gun. I'm not sure it can be done.


Not sure what you mean by "worn out" ( we replace parts as needed, don't we? ) I think it can be done, if you shoot IDPA and shoot what ya carry...lol I've worn out a S&W mod66 revolver 'til it's not safe to shoot. Then went to a Ruger SP101.

[CCHGN]

This is from the web: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Hammer_forged_6-right_polygonal_rifling_pattern.png/220px-Hammer_forged_6-right_polygonal_rifling_pattern.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hammer_forged_6-right_polygonal_rifling_pattern.png)


Hexagonal polygonal rifling.


A number of advantages are claimed by the supporters of polygonal rifling. These include:


Not compromising the barrel's thickness in the area of each groove as with traditional rifling.
Providing a better gas seal around the projectile as polygonal bores tend to have a slightly smaller bore area, which translates into more efficient use of the combustion gases trapped behind the bullet,[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygonal_rifling#cite_note-Kasler_138-4) slightly greater (consistency in) muzzle velocities and slightly increased accuracy.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygonal_rifling#cite_note-Barrel_History-1)
Less bullet deformation, resulting in reduced drag on the bullet when traveling through the barrel which helps to increase muzzle velocity.
Reduced buildup of copper or lead within the barrel which results in easier maintenance characteristics.
Less sensitive to stress concentration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_concentration) induced barrel failure.
Prolonged barrel life.

My thing about Kahr polygonal barrel is the words "match grade". To me that means better crowning and specs.

[kahrbrian]

Unless “match grade” is defined, it is undefined. It may mean something or it may be just a marketing term. No one has demonstrated that it means anything to make it “better.”

[CCHGN]

Unless “match grade” is defined, it is undefined. It may mean something or it may be just a marketing term. No one has demonstrated that it means anything to make it “better.”


Imo, "Match Grade" IS defined in the gun industry, as much as the 3 "Cs" are in the Diamond industry. A google search will show that in the gun industry, "Match Grade" means higher quality parts, made to a more strict tolerance, with better attention to detail. A match grade barrel, will be beefier, the chamber will have a tighter tolerance, the barrel fitted to the slide better and the crown cut more precisely, all pointing to better accuracy and longer life. Look at a Springfield M1A, with a "match grade" barrel, it will cost 50% more than a similar rifle without the "Match Grade" barrel. Pro shooters demand "match Grade" barrels. Folks at Nowlin and Thompson Contender can show how much better a "match grade" barrel is.

[CCHGN]

This might help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrmWN0igJY0

[kahrbrian]

Show the difference WRT Kahr, and you have a case.

[weemsf]

Polygonal barrels supposedly offer better velocity. In a short barrel pistol, I do not think accuracy is going to be noticeably different.

[CCHGN]

show the difference wrt kahr, and you have a case.
wrt?

[CCHGN]

Polygonal barrels supposedly offer better velocity. In a short barrel pistol, I do not think accuracy is going to be noticeably different.


Better velocity, less deformation=better accuracy However, short barreled pistols aren't designed for accuracy. SB pistols=belly gun Speaking of short barrels, where is the line? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIwVK_FxGZk

[kahrbrian]

The question is: "Is it a discernible difference". And this requires evidence, and the evidence is thin. Lots of target guns out there without polygonal rifling, and plenty of deformation. And... these are all compact guns or smaller.

[CCHGN]

The question is: "Is it a discernible difference". And this requires evidence, and the evidence is thin. Lots of target guns out there without polygonal rifling, and plenty of deformation. And... these are all compact guns or smaller.


Well, my question is, who's doing the discerning? I showed the advantages of the polygonal and a video where the CEO of Lothar said that match grade barrels are more accurate. I own and shoot and on the M1A forum and most all shooting forums, ALL agree that match grade barrels are superior. That comes from those that shoot in competitions, where accuracy and longevity, etc. are mandatory. That's good enough for me. YMMV.

[kahrbrian]

Show the difference WRT Kahr, and you have a case.
This, and from reviews of actual Kah pistols and owners, there is really no difference.

Do you really think a guy from a premium barrel manufacturer won’t tell you that they make a difference?

[berettabone]

What a surprise that the CEO of Lothar would tout the poly barrel accuracy. In rifles, yes, just like cold bore, warm bore...............in a firearm with a 4" barrel or less, hardly. A person couldn't hold a handgun still enough to notice anything. Then again, there are people out there who believe that most conceal carry people shoot and train on a regular basis. It depends on which earth your from.:p

[Bawanna]

Do I need to create a demilitarized zone for you two? Be kind to bawanna and cut us some slack.

My immense leader is making me do incredibly stupid worthless stuff today, worse than normal and I don't need this kind of abuse ya know?

[CCHGN]

Do I need to create a demilitarized zone for you two? Be kind to bawanna and cut us some slack.

My immense leader is making me do incredibly stupid worthless stuff today, worse than normal and I don't need this kind of abuse ya know?
What? he's the one following me around. I can't help that.

[CCHGN]

This, and from reviews of actual Kah pistols and owners, there is really no difference.

Do you really think a guy from a premium barrel manufacturer won’t tell you that they make a difference?

OK, well, if you don't believe , then I can't help you. Agnostics want God to physically touch them or else they won't believe.I don't need that. I have faith. I guess if one carries a pistol for 40 yrs and never shoot it, then it doesn't matter what barrel is in there, but folks who shoot alot , wants the best parts they can get, in their guns. There's alot of folks who'll say that MIMS parts are ok (Kahr), but I disagree with that. I have seem broken MIMS parts under a microscope and have seen the bubbles and debris and uneven tempering, etc. Fine, you carry a gun with a plain barrel and MIMS parts and I won't begrudge you, but let me carry mine with a match grade barrel and forged or milled parts, ok? There's folks that say a Jennings or Hi point is just fine. OK, they can have it, but not me. There's folks that say 440 stamped for a knife is ok, fine , they can buy $10 knives all day long. For me, my knives are D2 and forged. They both will cut, so who cares? I do. Some folks will say that Black and Decker tools are just fine and Harbor Freight is the best place to buy tools. I've been in Construction for over 30 yrs and won't own anything but Dewalt and my chainsaw is a Stihl. IF you ask me for evidence, all can tell you is my own 30 yrs of experience. I used every kind and had most fail on me, I've never had a Dewalt fail on me. That's all I need. If the top shooters in the World say a match grade barrel is superior, I believe it. Each to his own. YMMV.

[kahrbrian]

My point is belief SHOULD be based on evidence. There is no evidence shown that the "match grade barrel" in a Kahr delivers noticeable difference in performance - accuracy or longevity. It might be easier to clean. But in a 4" or less barrel, there is no evident difference - I believe there is enough evidence of that right here in this thread.

Lets compare barrels to barrels, and not get side-tracked on MIM vs. forged/milled.

I just don't think people ought to 'get hooked' on the 'match grade' moniker, and pass up a good gun that shoots just as well.

[CCHGN]

My point is belief SHOULD be based on evidence. There is no evidence shown that the "match grade barrel" in a Kahr delivers noticeable difference in performance - accuracy or longevity. It might be easier to clean. But in a 4" or less barrel, there is no evident difference - I believe there is enough evidence of that right here in this thread.

Lets compare barrels to barrels, and not get side-tracked on MIM vs. forged/milled.

I just don't think people ought to 'get hooked' on the 'match grade' moniker, and pass up a good gun that shoots just as well.

Well, we can't discuss anything if it all has to be on YOUR terms. You seem to have everything figured out with preconceived notions and I suspect your mind is closed any new concepts. For instance, you to say that belief SHOULD be based on evidence, but that's not necessarily true. Do you believe that there's other Planets out there, that could be just like Earth? If so, why? You don't have concrete evidence. OR it could be that the evidence is there, but you simply reject it, 'cause it doesn't fit your (mis)perception of "evidence". Like I said, perhaps you want the "Burning Bush". I pointed out that ALL Bulls eye shooters, pro competition shooters, military and LEO snipers,etc have "match Grade" barrels in their guns. Now, if there's NO difference, why is that? Are you saying that they ALL are just buying into some false hype? Nope, I'm positive that they all have match grade barrels because there IS something to it. It's foolish to ignore the experience of others. That is the basis of a lot of learning. You ignore the evidence I presented, so you want some kind of evidence that you have concocted in your own mind. You want to dismiss the very concepts that makes match grade barrel better than plain ones, like the CEO of Lothar explained. You simply dismissed him because YOU conclude that he automatically has ulterior motives (and nothing important to say). That just shows your cynicism. The whole point is that the difference IS the process in which it's made, produces a superior barrel and it's not just about accuracy, but also about durability and reliability. You claim that folks will "pass up" a gun because it doesn't have match grade barrel in it. Where is the same evidence, that you demand, for that? BTW, Kahr T,P and K series DO have match grade barrels. I have a CT40 and put in a match grade barrel and a milled slide stop from a T40, but see, I'm a "make lemonade out of lemons" kind of guy. I bought a Kimber CDP Pro, but found out it had MIMS parts in it. Did I throw the gun away? NO, I love the size of that pistol, the looks and the way they "melted" the edges, etc., so I simply replaced the MIMS parts with Wilson Combat "Bulletproof", forged parts and put a Bobtail on it. MIMS parts are a process that came up to save money, NOT because it's superior. Match grade is a more expensive process to make the barrel superior.

[Armybrat]

Serious question:
Do MIM parts have a history of breaking or are less reliable in general?

I'll hang up & listen (don't want to get involved in the back & forth).

[Bobshouse]

Locked threads seem to follow you around, don't you agree?

[CCHGN]

Serious question:
Do MIM parts have a history of breaking or are less reliable in general?

I'll hang up & listen (don't want to get involved in the back & forth).

Not sure that the data is being compiled. Research into the training ranges, like Gun site and Thunder Ranch, etc, report a lot of pistol failures, but nothing specifically.

Found this: https://www.paulsontraining.com/injection-molded-part-defects-cracks-in-molded-parts/

And this: https://www.creativemechanisms.com/blog/what-cause-injection-molding-defects-and-how-to-fix-them

[berettabone]

:behindsofa:
Locked threads seem to follow you around, don't you agree?

[b4uqzme]

Locked threads seem to follow you around, don't you agree?

TIFWIW but at least the fourms have been a little lively lately. With that said, I’m taking up a collection to send a certiain someone to sensitivity training. 😇

[Bawanna]

Reminds me of a few officers here that are all about Tactical. I can't even remember what it was they wanted but there was a regular version and a tactical version.

For the life of me I couldn't find any difference in the two and I finally emailed. I've dealt with them (whoever they were, don't remember) and figured I'd get a solid answer.

I asked what the difference was. The tactical had "Tactical" engraved on the side and was as I recall 60 dollars give or take more.

I told this to the officer and he said get the Tactical anyway.

This of course isn't the same as match grade and not match grade barrels.. There is a difference.
To me for the majority of the population it doesn't make that much difference out of a 4'' or less length barrel. Non match in most cases will be as accurate or more accurate than the shooter can shoot. Longevity isn't an issue for most as they don't get to shoot as much as they'd like, or in most cases spread their shooting over so many different guns that the wear is spread out.

To me the real dilemma is mule over horse. Now personally I'd take a good mule over a horse any day of the week. Sure they can be a might stubborn but horses can be down right disagreeable from time to time too.

Give me the mule any day.

[b4uqzme]

^^^ dang boss. How come, when you tell a story, it makes perfect sense but, when I say sumpin about car dealers or sumpin, it goes right over peoples’ heads? I’m setting some of that money aside for communication lessons... :rolleyes:

[getsome]

Give ole Jocko a shout over at the Broke Back ranch...I hear he has upgraded from sheep to mules these days....Nobody knows the south side of a north bound mule better than Jocko....

[CCHGN]

:behindsofa:


Once is a incident, twice is a co-incidence, 3 is a pattern. Let me know when you want to discuss fault...lol

[CCHGN]

Reminds me of a few officers here that are all about Tactical. I can't even remember what it was they wanted but there was a regular version and a tactical version.

For the life of me I couldn't find any difference in the two and I finally emailed. I've dealt with them (whoever they were, don't remember) and figured I'd get a solid answer.

I asked what the difference was. The tactical had "Tactical" engraved on the side and was as I recall 60 dollars give or take more.

I told this to the officer and he said get the Tactical anyway.

Yeah, that whole tactical thing has pros and con. The con side is a lot of folks are slapping "Tactical" on everything ( tactical umbrellas). What folks need to remember is "Tactical" is NOT an adjective. it;s a noun to describe an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.. IF the mission is to get onto a compound, where a pair of bolt cutters and a lock pick and a EMP machine is needed, then that;s all the "TACTICAL gear"., so in that context, almost anything CAN be a piece of "tactical Gear", but most of the stuff that someone c;aims to be "tactical" isn't. Now the Pro, compare that to these new companies, that ware started by retired SF, making true high speed/low drag gear,. THAT is real "tactical gear".For instance, I'd consider a vest by AR500, to be a real piece of tactical gear. The "taco" mag pouches , from High Speed Gear, is a real improvement over the traditional USGI mag pouches (Improved my times at the 3 gun).The photo vest by Rothco, nope. .


This of course isn't the same as match grade and not match grade barrels.. There is a difference.

Thank you, I agree. Btw, to me, it's simply a matter of personal preference. I like to have the best parts in ALL my gear that I can get.



To me the real dilemma is mule over horse. Now personally I'd take a good mule over a horse any day of the week. Sure they can be a might stubborn but horses can be down right disagreeable from time to time too.

Give me the mule any day.


Hmmm, I'm not sure that's a good analogy. So many different breeds of horses and mules ) not to mention apples and oranges). So if we pick horse, ok,an Arabian is a fine dainty horse. Looks pretty, but can't handle alot of abuse( now before the equine experts get on here, the hardy traits that the ancient Arabians had of enduring the desert, like a camel, that has been bred out of them, they're more like Whippets now) and then you have a draft horse, like a Clydesdale: Large, thick, built like a tank, like those over sized barrels on a sniper rifles and cannons. THEN you have the Thoroughbreds, best of both Worlds, big and strong yet fast as the wind and HUGE endurance. IN THAT context, imo, the regular barrel is Arabian and the "Match grade" is a Thoroubred.

[CCHGN]

^^^ dang boss. How come, when you tell a story, it makes perfect sense but, when I say sumpin about car dealers or sumpin, it goes right over peoples’ heads? I’m setting some of that money aside for communication lessons... :rolleyes:


Hmmm goes over folks' heads? Well, without rehashing(and getting onto trouble), simply, the concept of the top end, loaded car vs the low end, no frills, car( and everything in between being a compromise) has nothing to do with infringing on an unalienable right. The fact is, ALL the cars in between is NOT a compromise, you can choose what you want pay and what features you want and color, etc. or even NOT to buy ANY of that brand of car. You can go and buy a fully loaded KIA for the price of of the low end car, from the "Big 3", so it's still all a matter of choices. The other is not.

[CCHGN]

15525

OK, I got the Ct40 barrel and the "match Grade" T40 and put them side by side. I hope the pic shows, they're a different color. To me, that means a different finish.

[CCHGN]

But to me, this is the real difference, the section that pivots on the Slide stop pin is MUCH beefier. Meaning it'll last longer and the feed ramp is wider, meaning it will feed better. Add a milled Slide Stop pin and I have a much more reliable pistol. And this is debatable, but more contact on the slide stop pin means better accuracy. 15528

[berettabone]

I noticed that Mineola's are arriving back in the grocery store. They had lots of delicious ones from Dec. of last year until April. Then they kind of disappeared. Now, they are starting to trickle back in. I try to eat at least one every day. If you want stats as to how long they are in season, sorry, no stats. You just have to eat them until they are gone. So juicy, so delicious, AND SO GOOD FOR YOU! Can't wait for the concord grape season. I can't give you any stats of when but I know that I believe that they will come soon. Half of the people in the U.S. eat concord grapes. I don't know what the stats are, but I know people love them, so that's good enough for me. I always carry my MK9 with me when grape shopping. There are many grape thieves out there. I don't have any stats but I believe that there are, so better safe than sorry. When fruit shopping, always make sure you are armed to the teeth. There are many, many fruit thieves out there, I'd say a couple million anyway. I've got no stats but I believe it. Stay safe.............................................. ......

[Bawanna]

Choose words carefully, while entertaining it's also getting a might old.

Everyone go to a neutral corner and savor the Mineola's before they are gone. I don't know what a Mineola is, might have to google it.

[b4uqzme]

But to me, this is the real difference, the section that pivots on the Slide stop pin is MUCH beefier. Meaning it'll last longer and the feed ramp is wider, meaning it will feed better. Add a milled Slide Stop pin and I have a much more reliable pistol. And this is debatable, but more contact on the slide stop pin means better accuracy. 15528

Or that they go in different pistols? That's as careful as I got. ;) off to buy mineolas. See y'all soon.

[gb6491]

But to me, this is the real difference, the section that pivots on the Slide stop pin is MUCH beefier. Meaning it'll last longer and the feed ramp is wider, meaning it will feed better. Add a milled Slide Stop pin and I have a much more reliable pistol. And this is debatable, but more contact on the slide stop pin means better accuracy. 15528

Or that they go in different pistols? That's as careful as I got. ;) off to buy mineolas. See y'all soon.
Yep, the difference in width of the lower lugs is because one is a T40 barrel. I'm guessing there will need to be some work done to get that barrel to work in a CT40 (if it's even possible). For a poly rifled barrel in CT40, one might be better served with a TP40 barrel.
Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

Good point, that just now occurred to me and as usual you beat me to the thought by a long ways.

Now we'll all be curious to see how that works out.

[b4uqzme]

score!

[kahrbrian]

Back to the OP. Why did Kahr use polygonal rifling and offset feed ramps to begin with? More velocity in the smallest gun - why? Cuz in the 80s and 90s the theory fit the reality of older bullet designs. Today, designs allow for LESS velocity for good performance as a defensive round. Today the marginal increases one would get from polygonal rifling are not needed.

And yes, as pointed out, P series lugs are the same across the value line and premium line. So apples to apples and lug contact with the slide stop has nothing to do with accuracy.

Also, back to the "match grade" argument. The accuracy thing is basically unproven - again, unless someone can show a video or test done ON KAHRS made with like conditions, barrel length, machine rests, etc. I'll bet there is little to no difference, but it seems that on all the Kahr threads I see no one really notices a difference.

Why do 1911 shooters use them? Cuz it makes sense when a fraction of an inch makes a big difference in a score at 25M or more. Also, 1911s are VERY picky on slide and barrel fit with a TON of factors that require many precise cuts. Kahr barrel lockup is much simpler (good for us) and it SEEMS that they make VERY good barrels in the value line, hence, there is NOT much accuracy difference (if at all).

Of course the word "match" in a Kahr and what that really means may be very differrent than how it applies in a 1911 or a Beretta.

My final point is that Kahr is offering very good value for the money these days, and the barrel quality appears good enough for people not to think they NEED one on a VERY small handgun. If you desire the premium parts - great. I may end up with ANOTHER premium Kahr some day. Polygonal rifling looks cool!

[CCHGN]

Wtf ever if you don't want to see then you won't. If you don't believe, than nothing said will make a difference. And if one believes, nothing said will change them either. I'm not here to try and prove anything. IF you don't understand Physics, I'm not here to teach. Btw more contact DOES increase accuracy. Why they bead bed rifles. I'm about tired of this BS. I'm out of here. This site is unsecure anyway.

[getsome]

Heartbreaker...

[b4uqzme]

Sometimes I guess we run people off. That’s not good. I was just messing around. That bear was fun to poke. Yet I feel a little guilty. I saw it coming but just couldn’t help myself.

Around here we treasure those who know a lot. Those who know it all?... not so much. Just sayin’.

[berettabone]

score! I can tell by the shape and the top section and the color that this mineola is one fine mineola, and I just don't say that loosely.

[Bawanna]

So your trying to tell me a mineola is an orange, why don't you just call it an orange for pete's sake?

Yall always trying to make me look stooped. Easy task I know but make me feel dum.

[b4uqzme]

^^^ welcome to the club Colonel. :cool:

[kahrbrian]

Not that it matters but I taught physics in a college. 🙃

[Bobshouse]

Not that it matters but I taught physics in a college. 

You don't say...physics you say, well I used to eat lunch in a college cafeteria every now and then. I think that makes us equals.

[Bawanna]

I never been in a college cafeteria. I did visit a trade school one time for a visit, didn't eat though.

[yqtszhj]

I used to watch the girls walking on a college campus, that should count for something shouldn’t it? Of course that was back when the girls dressed like girls and you knew they were girls because there was no gender confusion back then.

How that relates to barrels I’m not sure.

[berettabone]

Maybe it was your father saying unless your ready to use it, keep your barrel in your pants:p

[Bawanna]

Whole new meaning to the term Snubby with polygonal rifling.

[kahrbrian]

Thanks y’all.

[kahrbrian]

You don't say...physics you say, well I used to eat lunch in a college cafeteria every now and then. I think that makes us equals. Indeed.

[Bobshouse]

Indeed.

You should be able to answer these with your eyes closed...

1) Who was the first pre-Socratic philosopher to suggest that matter could neither be created nor destroyed?
Answer:



2) In 1729 AD, Pieter Van Musschenbroek used the term ‘PHYSICS’ for the first time. What was the subject called so far?
Answer:



3) Which Greek philosopher suggested that the material world was composed of four basic elements – air, water, fire and earth?
Answer:



4) Who in 1231 was the first to describe the science of optics?
Answer:






5) Who was burnt to death for suggesting that the sun might be an ordinary star?
Answer:

[kahrbrian]

Thank you sir!