Sig P365... it’s true what they say

[yqtszhj]

Well.... I can say I’m amazed. It’s true what they say about the P365. I had the opportunity to handle one yesterday and couldn’t leave without it.

The the slide is the same width as a cm9 (.90 in.) and the frame is a tad thinner (.02 in.) as the Kahr frame bulges a little. Other dimensions with a mag in the pistol are so close it’s not worth mentioning any difference. Grip is excellent. Weight it slightly heavier by about 2 oz. more with an empty mag. If this thing runs good and holds up to shooting like my Kahr I’ll be without words...

https://s26.postimg.cc/kfeubaue1/32042_FF9-_F7_CE-4_DE9-9_BFE-4_FD1_F9_C28_E28.jpg
https://s26.postimg.cc/80s2azall/481_BA178-4419-4_F7_D-84_A1-0283562540_FC.jpg

[340pd]

Welcome to the club. It is a very, very interesting firearm. Try it in your PM9 holsters. It fits perfectly in every one of mine.

[JohnR]

I hear the trigger is similar to a Kahr.

Maybe NOW Justin will start thinking about a double stack? Hmm???

[Ikeo74]

Like yqtszhj said the P365 is virtually the sane as the cm9,pm9 and the MK9. I got my P365 yesterday and I am on my way to shot it now. I measured the p365 against the MX9 and the triggers are almost identical as far as position and length of pull. I took my MK9 out of it's holster (Garret Silent Thunder) and am using the holster to carry the P365. Fit is almost exact too. I will see how close the triggers are compared for pull weight. More later.

[yqtszhj]

Welcome to the club. It is a very, very interesting firearm. Try it in your PM9 holsters. It fits perfectly in every one of mine.

Yep, it’s incredible it fits them all, even the kydex. I actually have an older stiff leather holster for the cm9 and the Sig is looser than the Kahr.

I’m thinking about getting one of these:
https://kusiakleather.com/products/kusiak-iwbs

Need to get me a DeSantis Nemmis dedicated to this too for pocket carry. It deserves its own holsters. If it wasn’t for mowing the grass I could have shot it today.

Here’s the worst part. When I brought it home yesterday the wife saw it and said I should have got 2 of them. :confused: I tried to get her to go with me but she didn’t. I can see now if she shoots it and likes it I’ve lost it as supply has all dried up again....

[yqtszhj]

I hear the trigger is similar to a Kahr.

Maybe NOW Justin will start thinking about a double stack? Hmm???

The trigger to me seems like a cross between a XD and a glock. The sights are nice. The front sight jumps out at you.

[getsome]

I've got the hots for one of these bad...Still haven't been able to find one to check out yet...My only reservations are about the problems they had at first but it seems they have those issues under control...I pocket carry and was wondering about the width at the bottom of the magazine that prints in jeans, is it much wider there than a PM9?....As much as I love my PM9 I really like having more ammo in the gun ready to go rather than possibly having to fumble with a reload....All in all this seems like the best of both worlds with size vs ammo capacity....Hope to fondle one soon..

[Bobshouse]

Someone needs to buy a couple and move to California. After they get here, hopefully they won't find use for two and decide to sell one.....to me.

[Ikeo74]

Back from shooting my P365, only 50 rounds today. No failures of any kind, tight targets and a trigger that I like. In my opinion my MK9 and the P365 both have light triggers, which I like. The difference I noticed is the Kahr has a light pull all the way through. Makes a question of exactly when it is going to release. The Sig has a slack take up until it gets to the release spot which is a definite release and you know when it's going to happen.

[Alfonse]

They are sweet little guns. I have two, but don't plan on moving to California... :)

[yqtszhj]

..I pocket carry and was wondering about the width at the bottom of the magazine that prints in jeans, is it much wider there than a PM9?..

Bottom of grip/mag measurements
Side to side:
cm9/pm9 = .90 in.
P360 = .98 in.

Front to rear
cm9/pm9 = 1.91 in.
P380 = 1.73 in.

[O'Dell]

I was thinking about one, but decided I didn't want a SIG without a hammer or the DA/SA trigger.

[King Rat]

Looks like a nice gun. I would be interested to see how well these magazines workout down the road, cost, availability etc. This gun is unique in the fact it was developed around a magazine. Personally I am not interested in the higher capacity mags. Most small compact guns come with 7 or 8 round mags anyway. And the idea is to cut down on weight. JMO
Personally I would prefer it with out the bulky slide lock which is totally unnecessary to begin with. Nor is it the correct way. A snag free design on a small-sub compact is more desirable.

"As with any gun of this type, it doesn’t take much to engage the slide lock/release during a multi-shot string, and the most common side effect is a failure of the gun to lock open on an empty magazine. The P365’s slide lock can also be pressed upward, causing additional friction as the slide reciprocates and, in the worst case, can prevent the slide from returning fully to battery, resulting in failures to fire and identifiable by light primer strikes. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that the P365 definitely requires training and practice to perfect its use. Worst than a desire to have a safety on a carry gun. NRA review
I do like the night sights and the trigger at 5.5-6lbs is better for fast action shooting combined with CCW than many of the striker fired Glass break triggers out there. From some of the descriptions, it does appear to more of a double action. Hopefully so.

If I would get one, I would most definitely wait a year rather than buy new run guns. I learned the lesson to have patience a long time ago. Also they plan on making the gun a Modular grip design in the near future. (late Spring). Having owned modular pistols, I do not want to go back without them. I think you will see in the future more gun with this design. Obviously Sig see's it as well.
That would IMO be a big bonus.

[Ed M]

Waiting patiently for the range report from yqtszhj.

My local indoor range has a P365 available to rent as well. Next range trip, I'm gonna try it out.

I'm running out of excuses to not buy one. A thumbs up from my personal gun purchase adviser will push me over the edge....

[yqtszhj]

Waiting patiently for the range report from yqtszhj.

My local indoor range has a P365 available to rent as well. Next range trip, I'm gonna try it out.

I'm running out of excuses to not buy one. A thumbs up from my personal gun purchase adviser will push me over the edge....

Range report forthcoming either Tuesday or Thursday next week..... stay tuned.

[Ed M]

Crap. Walked into my LGS today, and there was a customer there that had one with him.

He was happy to show it off, and let me dry fire it. Damn, that trigger is nice!

Didn't fit well in my CM9 kydex pocket holster, but it'll do just fine in a DeSantis Nemesis.

According to that customer, Sig has temporarily halted production of most of their other models, and is ramping up production of the P365 big time. They should be in plentiful supply shortly.

I'm #1 on the waiting list at my LGS.....

[yqtszhj]

Crap. Walked into my LGS today, and there was a customer there that had one with him.....

Thats the story of my life. That’s how I have ended up with most of what I have.

[JohnR]

Dang, sounds like Sig has found the magic gun.

[Slugnutty]

Congrats, I've decided this will be my Christmas 2018 present to myself, I want to let the early adopters be the beta testers and 10 months should be just about right if there is going to be problems we should be seeing them soon enough - will be interested in your range reviews

[Ikeo74]

I shot another 50 rounds from my P365 using my MK9 Garrets holster. No problems and ammo seems to be used quite a bit faster when shooting the Sig. I better get busy on my reloader. I am going to need a lot more ammo now.

[340pd]

The P365 is a bit thicker and I much prefer my PM9 for pocket carry but I wear a lot of jeans. Dress pants with 11 rounds may make the P365 feel heavy in the pocket. In today's world of large cell phones in one's pocket, that is your call.
As you can tell I am not a photographer but maybe this will help.

https://s5.postimg.cc/z2u2s7ww7/20180430_104034.jpghttps://s5.postimg.cc/evgmzx74n/20180430_104145.jpghttps://s5.postimg.cc/8hrjwopdz/20180430_104322.jpg

[Bobshouse]

Thick grip, probably feels like the difference in my CM45 and my Glock 30SF.

[Ikeo74]

The picture is an optical illusion, actual measurements are less than .08 in wider. Measured with calipers, not by me however.

[yqtszhj]

Yeah I guess it is a bit thicker but I didn’t notice it because I have that hogue handall on my cm9 so it actually feels smaller with no grip sleeve. The smaller front to rear on the p365 balances it out though I guess.

Range Report:
150 rounds of S&B FMJ
10 rounds of Sig SD ammo
11 rounds of Federal HST

No problems at all. I can even ride the slide on the Sig SD rounds and even with their large flat hollow point they feed fine. The wife shot about 70 of the FMJ rounds and she liked it (she did shoot up my PVC pipe target stand though but that’s another story. Now I have to fix that.) I tried to limp wrist it to induce a failure and couldn’t get it to fail.

It shot very well for me and grouped nicely. The wife started out OK then she started shooting faster and that was when my target stand became a casualty. It does seem maybe a little more snappy than my cm9 but not uncomfortable at all. I get back on target much easier with the p365 than my cm9. I really like the grip texture. It doesn’t slip in the hand at all. I’m seriously thinking about selling my G26 and it’s accesories to fund another P365 but haven’t decided yet. The Sig is significantly lighter and smaller which is appealing.

I was going to shoot another 50 FMJ but shooting was so uneventful I just saved the ammo for next trip.

[Ikeo74]

I cycled some of my self defense hand loads using Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. They shot and cycled perfectly through my P365. No failures yet. It's good to know it will cycle 100% of my Gold Dots. Those are my carry ammo. I carried my gun in the house for practice and the wife didn't know I had it on.

[340pd]

The picture is an optical illusion, actual measurements are less than .08 in wider. Measured with calipers, not by me however.

Pictures can give the wrong impression but in my hand the P365 having a more rounded grip definitely feels larger than that .08 measurement you gave. In my opinion this firearrm gives you the option of carrying a lot more ammo in a gun that is "slightly larger" PM9. Make note the additional ammo will also add weight.

If I have any complaint with my PM9 it is the long trigger stroke. Slow fire offhand with the PM9 was always a challenge for me. The P365 trigger with it's short reset is a joy to shoot offhand.

In my hand, shooting the P365 with the 12 round mag is cheating. My groups are as tight as with my P226 or M11A1.

Ammo wise, I have fired a dozen different loads with no problems and this included the hot 90 gr. solid copper Underwood Extreme Defender which I now carry when I am out of the house.

The internet complaints with the P365 and there are plenty, usually fall into two groups.
1. Real, which Sig immediately replaced for those who felt the need. (the recoil spring replaced and barrel needed a tiny chamfer cut to insure against galling). All the "new" guns were fitted with the upgrade Sig X-ray night sights which BTW, I find are not that great in some low light situations.
2. User error, with the most prevalent "the slide will not lock back on the last round", "Mags drop while firing", "failure to eject or feed", etc.
The few "light strikes" comments were usually traced back to excess grease, oil, or crud in the striker channel.

As I declare every shift at my range, all small gun shooters should be forced to take a class on how to handle and shoot these little gems without having the above listed problems.

BTW, I still love and will never part with my PM9 which I continue to keep at the top of the list as a pocket gun.

[Ikeo74]

I agree, almost all P365 problems are used caused. I have been shooting small guns for quite a while and have had none of the problems that others are complaining of.

[mser]

Stumbled across one on my way home from a four State motorcycle ride. Very happy with it.15508

[ARH1956]

I'm a huge PM9 fan and own a couple of them as well as a P380 and a couple of additional Kahrs. I bought a P365 when they first became available and received a replacement set of sights from Sig but have not had any issues after 200+ rounds. I bought a December 2018 build P365 and it came in a smaller, cooler case and with improved sights but has also had zero issues. It fits in my pair of PM9 CrossBreed IWB Kydex/Leather holsters and my StealthGear VentCore Kydex holster as well. The PM9 is lighter and ever so slightly smaller. I prefer the PM9 with the factory mags. but the P365 with the 12 round mag is my new favorite. I'll continue using the PM9 in summer with minimalist clothing and the P365 most of the rest of the time. BTW, I also have a G43 that I like as well but it is significantly larger IMO.

[AIRret]

yqtszhj, Just face it you're in love with the sweet little sig.


Bottom of grip/mag measurements
Side to side:
cm9/pm9 = .90 in.
P360 = .98 in.

Front to rear
cm9/pm9 = 1.91 in.
P380 = 1.73 in.

[Bawanna]

Speaking of love I think we need to renew our cyber couple vows! Just say I do and we're done, I already did.

Then bring on the cake. An punch, don't forget the punch.

[yqtszhj]

yqtszhj, Just face it you're in love with the sweet little sig.

Those numbers are like an hour glass figure.

[AIRret]

I'm on board!!!!! I DO!!!!


Speaking of love I think we need to renew our cyber couple vows! Just say I do and we're done, I already did.

Then bring on the cake. An punch, don't forget the punch.

[Bawanna]

You make me so HAPPY!

[340pd]

I ran across this comparison between a CM9 and a P365.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC2rLEbgDBc

[1radman]

I picked one up about 3 weeks ago...and yes it's virtually the same size of my CM9, which I sold, along with a S&W SD9 to finance the purchase. It's really the sweet spot regarding conceal-ability and capacity, especially with my 12 rnd mag, although even with a 10rnd mag it's too big for most of my pockets except the cargo dad pants. I'm now a little sad that I'm Kahrless though, so I'm looking to get a CT380 soon as a little BUG/shorts & flipflops piece. Out of 115 rounds so far, only one failure...the extractor failed to pick up the empty case, using Federal and Remington 115grn fmj. Build date is mid December 2018 btw.

[340pd]

Before we all get too giddy with the P365, it is a great gun but my PM9 is a lot smaller in my pocket, has a long DA trigger and there is a new Kahr with a slightly longer grip that holds more ammo. If you love your Kahr look at this,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FrbL77kmzg

[ltxi]

Before we all get too giddy with the P365, it is a great gun but my PM9 is a lot smaller in my pocket, has a long DA trigger and there is a new Kahr with a slightly longer grip that holds more ammo. If you love your Kahr look at this,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FrbL77kmzg

Too late...giddiness continues out of control. I agree with you...PM9 suits my wants/ needs better as well.

[JohnR]

I’ve tried to like the 365. On paper, it seems ideal. I’ve never shot one, so I have that against me, but the looks don’t appeal to me and the capacity isn’t that much more than my MagGuts Shield, or my hopefully soon to be MagGutsed CW9.

For a small CCW or pocket gun, I really want something with a Kahr-like trigger. The short light Shield trigger isn’t very comforting.

[340pd]

I’ve tried to like the 365. On paper, it seems ideal. I’ve never shot one, so I have that against me, but the looks don’t appeal to me and the capacity isn’t that much more than my MagGuts Shield, or my hopefully soon to be MagGutsed CW9.

For a small CCW or pocket gun, I really want something with a Kahr-like trigger. The short light Shield trigger isn’t very comforting.

At the very least you need to give one a try. Nothing against the Shield but can anything be better?

[dao]

I’ve tried to like the 365. On paper, it seems ideal. I’ve never shot one, so I have that against me, but the looks don’t appeal to me and the capacity isn’t that much more than my MagGuts Shield, or my hopefully soon to be MagGutsed CW9.

For a small CCW or pocket gun, I really want something with a Kahr-like trigger. The short light Shield trigger isn’t very comforting.

This is the crux of it for me too. Three or four extra rounds would be nice in the same size package as a Kahr. But carrying a Kahr is a lot like carrying a revolver with an exceptional DA trigger. IMO it's always been one of the two best things about my Kahrs, the other being the package itself. Too bad the trend right now is heavy on the SA striker fired trigger/action, as I'd love to see that P365 done in either a DA/SA or a DAO. Tried Glocks and glock-like pocket pistols, sold them all.

[Bawanna]

Looking cool at all times being my primary objective I don't find the P365 asthetically pleasing. Not fond of the high bore axis, it kind of screams Sigma to me.
That being said a few officers here have them and they feel good in hand and they say they shoot well. Being used to their duty Glocks, the trigger isn't a big transition for them.
If I found a screaming deal on one and the planets aligned and I had the money at the moment, I'd probably buy one.

The capacity of the Kahrs have never bothered me in the least, I don't mind adding a magazine or two or 10 as needed depending on where I'm going.
The likely hood of citizen sheepdogs needing lots of rounds is unlikely although that doesn't mean we shouldn't plan for the unlikely scenarios.

[kenemoore]

I have held, and dry fired the 365. The trigger is pretty good. If I did not own a PM9 already, might be interested. But...I do not carry my PM9 as my only pistol. It is mainly a BUG, so having 6 vs 10 is not a big concern for me. After I settle in for the evening, I often walk the dog with only the PM9 in my pocket. But I don't get more than 2-300 yards from the house.

[ltxi]

This is the crux of it for me too. Three or four extra rounds would be nice in the same size package as a Kahr. But carrying a Kahr is a lot like carrying a revolver with an exceptional DA trigger. IMO it's always been one of the two best things about my Kahrs, the other being the package itself. Too bad the trend right now is heavy on the SA striker fired trigger/action, as I'd love to see that P365 done in either a DA/SA or a DAO. Tried Glocks and glock-like pocket pistols, sold them all.

x2...

[JohnR]

I’ve spent the last several months shooting primarily revolvers, and carrying one. A Kahr is like carrying a 7 or 8 round revolver that’s pocket size and has mild recoil.

[Ikeo74]

Well, here is another opinion. I own a MK9 and a CM9, both are great guns, but...…..What I am carrying now is a P365. I liked the looks, I liked the size and I liked the trigger, and it came standard with night sights. Ordered it without ever holding one in my hand, waited for 80 days to get it and have put 1850 rounds downrange through it so far. Another good thing is it fits the same holsters I already had for my Kahr's. The trigger has a shorter take up with a definite break and is as easy to pull as the Kahrs. What the advantage to the trigger in my opinion is that I know when it will brake and the shorter pull allows quicker recovery time for additional shots. I won't be selling my Kahrs but they are safe queens for now.

[ltxi]

Well, here is another opinion. I own a MK9 and a CM9, both are great guns, but...…..What I am carrying now is a P365. I liked the looks, I liked the size and I liked the trigger, and it came standard with night sights. Ordered it without ever holding one in my hand, waited for 80 days to get it and have put 1850 rounds downrange through it so far. Another good thing is it fits the same holsters I already had for my Kahr's. The trigger has a shorter take up with a definite break and is as easy to pull as the Kahrs. What the advantage to the trigger in my opinion is that I know when it will brake and the shorter pull allows quicker recovery time for additional shots. I won't be selling my Kahrs but they are safe queens for now.

To each his own. But I gotta say I don't care much for Glock style actions. Effectively S/A's with no safety.

[JohnR]

To each his own. But I gotta say I don't care much for Glock style actions. Effectively S/A's with no safety.
Exactly!

[Ikeo74]

Single action with no safety? You couldn't be more wrong. All striker fired guns that are single actions with no external safety, all have internal safety features that prevent the gun from firing unless the trigger is pulled. That includes Kahr's and Sig P365's, Glocks are somewhat different because the only thing keeping it from discharging is the trigger safety which is easily overcome by light manipulation of that trigger safety when re-holstering or when you don't use good trigger finger control. Kahr's and Sigs don't use a trigger press type safety and are less likely to discharge when re-holstering. . I have never heard of any striker fired Sig P365 or Kahr's having a negligent discharge when re-holstering or any other reason except for negligent action by the shooter. I agree with you, I would not ever own a Glock, however both Kahr's and Sig P365 are totally safe without an external safety and I own both of them and have no desire to have an external safety on any of my striker fired guns. External safeties are just another thing you might forget to toke of safety in an emergency when your life depends on a quick defensive action.

[JohnR]

Glocks are somewhat different because the only thing keeping it from discharging is the trigger safety which is easily overcome by light manipulation of that trigger safety when re-holstering or when you don't use good trigger finger control.
that’s the point! It’s like a 1911 without the thumb and grip safeties in that regard.

[King Rat]

A few months back a few members of my club took the 365 to try out. We ran a thousand rounds through the gun. It was a nice little gun. However as far as shooting, nothing really stood out. It shot well, accurate enough for all the shooters, but a little snappy. But still a pleasant gun to shoot. A number of us felt it shot like the Ruger LC9s but not quite as snappy. The funny thing was, none of us really cared or focused on the higher round count. The trigger to me, seemed better than the very light trigger of the LC9S for EDC. I have the Ruger, but moved to the Nano and so I prefer the double action. The gun handled and shot all the ammo without failure with the exception of 4 rounds, which we feel may have been contributed by shooters riding the slide. Something we warned all the shooters about before they shot the gun. The 365 for many felt the space between the slide and the receiver was much too narrow. At least it was for myself. I have a size large hand and this gun most likely would not work for me. Especially if I had to wear a glove. If you have a small hand this gun will work out fine. We had one lady shooter that loved the gun and later bought one. As far a bore axis being larger, than a Kahr, well, maybe so but bore height is subjective. My favorite Micro 9 is the Nano and it does have a higher Bore axis and I prefer that over a lower. That can be determined by the individual shooter.
Like I said, the receiver to grip for me was just too short. My little Pico actually has more space for two handed shooting. Some of us also did not like the very bulky take down lever. Not sure why Sig went with this on a small carry gun. The magazines seemed cheap. Maybe they were Prototypes and better quality will come out at a later date.
All said, it was a very Nice shooting firearm and the quality of the gun seemed very well made. It is small, easy to shoot for many. If you like that style of trigger and depending on how well it fits your particular hand then it will be a great gun IMO.

I will give a illustration for the receiver of the 365 and grip compared to my Nano just for comparison. If you have a Kahr broken down, a Picture for comparison would be nice to see.

https://i.imgur.com/oykVd3V.jpg https://i.imgur.com/MHI28MV.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/MvAoNRI.jpg?1 https://i.imgur.com/iBs9Onl.jpg?2

I want to be very clear. This is JMO. And I want to be clear that this is a very nice shooting firearm. But like all firearms, one shoe does not fit all. A gun should be perfect for the individual shooter. This gun was not my cup of tea, but for many it will be right what the Doctor ordered. I think it will be a huge success.

[gale155]

I sold my Shield last month, and bought a P365 with a Dec. 2018 DOB. Got it from a LGS that had 20 of them in stock! Out of the box, I noticed that the front sight was completely dead. Checking over at Sigtalk, I saw that a few others had experienced this same problem as of late. I spoke with a very knowledgeable and helpful lady at Sig CS who said they were out of sights to mail out individually, but had plenty in their shop. The quickest way to get it replaced, she explained, would be to send them the entire slide. They paid for FedEx both ways, of course, and got it back to me pretty quickly. I'm sure Sig will put a stop to these slipping through the cracks, but I suggest checking the night sights before accepting a P365 off the shelf at a LGS.

For pocket carry, I've been spoiled by my RM380, CW380 and Seecamp, so I doubt my new Sig will see much pocket time. I prefer OWB for belt guns, and stumbled upon a heck of a deal on Amazon...a DeSantis E-Gat slide holster (leather) made specifically for the P365. It ride close to the body, high on the belt and fits the Sig like a glove. Retention is not adjustable, but I think it's perfect as it is. It also has wider belt loops than most small holsters, and fits my 1 3/4 inch belt with a little room to spare. It's not Del Fatti quality, but it's much better than a similar Don Hume I have. I got it from J.D. Holsters through Amazon for $24.95 with free shipping, and for that price I think it's a steal.

I haven't fired the Sig yet, but am really looking forward to it.

[ltxi]

that’s the point! It’s like a 1911 without the thumb and grip safeties in that regard.

....x2. Thank you....saved me from having to formulate a same sort of reply.

[King Rat]

that’s the point! It’s like a 1911 without the thumb and grip safeties in that regard.

Recently had a friend shoot himself in leg with his Glock 19. He is a retired Military Armorer, now range master, gun enthusiast, has been around guns all his life. Loves to build AR's and as long as I have known him, he as been a Glock 19 fanboy. Turns out, he was headed to the range, gun was in the holster and when he opened the door and bent over to place items in the car, the gun went off. The Bullet went into his hip and traveled all the way down his leg, just missing the Femoral Artery. I saw pictures, just a horrible nasty wound, but he survived. He told me that for some reason the gun just went off. Nothing was caught in the holster, he said he has taken the gun all the way down and inspected every part. He said he had no strings that could have caught on anything. He is baffled as to why this has happened. Says he has looked closely at this holster, his clothing, every thing.
Each to his own on what they choose to do. Personally I have moved to double action and love it. No more light striker fired triggers. I am done with them and actually enjoying D/A's more. Ironically about 3 or 4 months ago, we had another accidental discharge, a shot into the leg. It was also a Glock. I am not in any way disparaging Glock as there are many light striker fired guns out there.
What is interesting is that the very similar gun now being sold like the Glock 43 is the Mossberg MC1. It has a optional safety.

[berettabone]

:behindsofa:

[yqtszhj]

I wonder if he had any modifications to his G19?

One thing I’ve always questioned is firing pin blocks? Who has actually tested dropping the full force of a charged striker or hammer driven firing pin into a firing pin block to see if the firing pin block will let it hit the primer? In my mind firing pin blocks may stop the inertia of a firing pin in a dropped gun but what about a hammer jumping the seer or a trigger bar slipping off a striker?

Bawanna may can correct me on this but in a Glock a functioning cross shaped trigger bar thingy shouldn’t slip from a striker without the trigger being pulled because it has to travel back and down? Now one that is worn or had a “25 cent” trigger job, that may be something different.

this has me rethinking da/sa again for carry......

[340pd]

Single action with no safety? You couldn't be more wrong. All striker fired guns that are single actions with no external safety, all have internal safety features that prevent the gun from firing unless the trigger is pulled. That includes Kahr's and Sig P365's, Glocks are somewhat different because the only thing keeping it from discharging is the trigger safety which is easily overcome by light manipulation of that trigger safety when re-holstering or when you don't use good trigger finger control. Kahr's and Sigs don't use a trigger press type safety and are less likely to discharge when re-holstering. . I have never heard of any striker fired Sig P365 or Kahr's having a negligent discharge when re-holstering or any other reason except for negligent action by the shooter. I agree with you, I would not ever own a Glock, however both Kahr's and Sig P365 are totally safe without an external safety and I own both of them and have no desire to have an external safety on any of my striker fired guns. External safeties are just another thing you might forget to toke of safety in an emergency when your life depends on a quick defensive action.

Nice writeup. The Kahr and Sig safeties are different from Glocks. In our range the LE's have put 8 ND's through the walls of our cleaning room all Glocks and many agencies carry Sigs and Beretta's.
If the Sig P365 does make you nervous, they are now available with a Safety lever but as often stated it's another step in the process of getting the gun to fire and over the years as a bullseye shooter I saw the safety's on a 1911 fail many times not to mention a number go full auto during a five shot string of slow fire. People always tinker and that can lead to disaster.

[kenemoore]

I saw a video once, where a guy with a G26 in a canvas holster shot himself in the arse. It was an IWB holster and as he sat down the fabric of his pants pulled on the fabric of his holster, and boom. That's why I don't do cheap holsters anymore, too scary.

The Glock "safety" just keeps it from going off if you drop it.
I have watched the California drop test on a 1911, without a firing pin block (aka 70 series), fired every time. They were dropping it on the muzzle, from 6 feet, inertia caused the pin to keep right on going. Supposedly the S&W 1911's have Titanium firing pins, which lack enough mass to fire, don't know that for sure.

[yqtszhj]

Supposedly the S&W 1911's have Titanium firing pins, which lack enough mass to fire, don't know that for sure.

It’s reported that Ruger is doing this too in their handguns without FP blocks. Including their budget minded Security 9 which also has a thumb safety.

[berettabone]

" They are ugly, but they go bang every time." Apparently, they do. I own striker fired arms, but have always felt more comfy with my da/sa's. The only Glock I have personally shot was a model 20. Shot it quite a bit. It belonged to a friend of mine, who couldn't hit the side of a barn with it. I kept telling him it was because the firearm just did not fit comfortably. He got such a deal on it, that he just couldn't part with it. I just couldn't ever trust them myself. Otherwise, it wasn't horrible, just not for me. I still wouldn't trust one, except to go bang of course.:p

[ltxi]

I really have no quarrel with short action striker fired guns. My issue is with those that rely soley on the Glock style "Safe Action" style trigger configuration for trigger safety. To me, it's akin carrying a 1911 cocked and unlocked with the grip safety pinned....a scary concept to 1911 fans such as me. I'm quite used to manual safties and swiping them off is a long ingrained, reflex action that I actually muscle memory imitate with my two Glocks, as I mentally consider them S/A handguns,.

[RustyIron]

^^^Interesting take, although not all that surprising on a Kahr forum. I, too, am averse to the short-travel Glock style trigger. Nor am I particularly fond of manual safeties. That's why I carry a Kahr, HK LEM's, and just last night made a deal on a P365.

[boscobarbell]

^^^Interesting take, although not all that surprising on a Kahr forum. I, too, am averse to the short-travel Glock style trigger. Nor am I particularly fond of manual safeties. That's why I carry a Kahr, HK LEM's, and just last night made a deal on a P365.

Great minds think alike! You just named all of my favorite firearms.

The H&K LEM triggers are, to me, the hidden gems in the EDC firearms universe. Inherently safe, but incredibly easy to shoot, for beginners or experts alike:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KVkWGMkOKE

p.s. If H&K came out with a single-stack LEM pistol, I'd probably sell off 90% of my gun collection because they would become obsolete.

[yqtszhj]

p.s. If H&K came out with a single-stack LEM pistol, I'd probably sell off 90% of my gun collection because they would become obsolete.

That would be nice. About the closest thing I’ve found that reminds me of what a single stack HK might be is an XDe. It has a DA/SA with a decocker/safety combo. Reminds me of my P30SK/s V3. But it’s not an HK, it’s heavy. I still would like to shoot one though to try it out. I saw it on the day it was released at the NRA show in Atlanta. I told them if it had been available earlier I would have bought it instead of my P30SK.

What I’ve found that I would think would be a single stack HK VP9 (another Glock knockoff) is the Walther PPS M2. Mine shoots very nice and has been flawless for the 600 rounds shot but it’s a tad heavy for its size. I saw a real deal on it and had to buy it.

I still ponder a VP9 only because it would use my collection of P30 mags. Time will tell.

[Bawanna]

That LEM sounds an awful lot like a Para Ordnance LDA, easy take up to the 3 or 4# release. I like them myself. Some tried them and didn't like them.

The short reset is what's tripping me up on the LEM. I need to hold one of those I guess. Sounds real good either way.

[dao]

Just my opinion but a long, moderately heavy pull helps those of us that are not trained to react in stressful situations to avoid mistakes under stress. For me that's what a Kahr trigger, and a good DA/SA hammer fired gun provide. I very much like the V3 HK's though I haven't shot an LEM so I'm thinking they could be too light. There are also mutiple variants of the LEM, some lighter than others. But if I mean to shoot, and do, and my second shot is going to be SA, or the same long, moderately heavy pull as the first shot then all the better. And it's easy to lighten up the DA pull on a good DA/SA gun with a lighter hammer spring. Until it feels much the same as a Kahr.

[ltxi]

That LEM sounds an awful lot like a Para Ordnance LDA, easy take up to the 3 or 4# release. I like them myself. Some tried them and didn't like them.

The short reset is what's tripping me up on the LEM. I need to hold one of those I guess. Sounds real good either way.

I'm with you on this one. First I've heard of the LEM. Like the concept and if I were new. or relatively so, at shooting I'd probably look at it hard. But it would add a new manual of arms different from my 60 +years of shooting. Good and comfortable with my DAO revolver style and 1911 S/A regimens and don't really want to take another one on.

[Bawanna]

I can't speak for the LEM of course but the LDA (I have 3) would require no manual of arms change at all. It's a 1911. Safety is the same, more trigger take up to the wall and then the let off. Actually when you squeeze to the breaking point, it's exactly like a 1911.
It's a bit more forgiving and doesn't frighten the sheep that are afraid of the hammer back look.

[Barth]

All of my Hk pistols were bought as, or converted to, LEM.
For me it's the Voodoo trigger :cool:

I know it's strange.
Seems like the opposite of a standard DA/SA.
There are two hammers (or technically a hammer and a cocking piece)
The internal one is cocked by the slide and stays cocked.
The external is DAO.
When you're actually shooting (http://i.viglink.com/?key=5757890303978f227c9b2c6b2cafd58f&insertId=76fd4c5d2634dffa&type=CD&exp=60%3ACI1C55A%3A6&libId=js76bx7d01015pxi000DAbskrbtf8&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hkpro.com%2Fforum%2Fhk-handgun-talk%2F170075-lem-trigger-explanation.html&v=1&iid=76fd4c5d2634dffa&opt=true&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%2Fsearch%2Find ex.htm%3Fk%3Dshooting&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&title=LEM%20Trigger%20explanation&txt=%3Cspan%3Eshooting%3C%2Fspan%3E) the gun, the slide is going to re-cock the internal hammer (http://i.viglink.com/?key=5757890303978f227c9b2c6b2cafd58f&insertId=f476f8c51abe8b7b&type=CD&exp=60%3ACI1C55A%3A6&libId=js76bx7d01015pxi000DAbskrbtf8&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hkpro.com%2Fforum%2Fhk-handgun-talk%2F170075-lem-trigger-explanation.html&v=1&iid=f476f8c51abe8b7b&opt=true&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%2Fsearch%2Find ex.htm%3Fk%3Dhammer&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&title=LEM%20Trigger%20explanation&txt=%3Cspan%3Ehammer%3C%2Fspan%3E).
So you have the light pull first and following shots (only driving the external DAO hammer).

Except if you have a bad primer.
And the round doesn't fire.
Then you will get the heavier double action like pull for a second strike capability.
(Driving both internal and external hammers)

Although technically, I guess, LEM is DAO.
It feels more to me like a modified SA with a very long and light (http://i.viglink.com/?key=5757890303978f227c9b2c6b2cafd58f&insertId=74db2925b32bfe84&type=CD&exp=60%3ACI1C55A%3A6&libId=js76bx7d01015pxi000DAbskrbtf8&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hkpro.com%2Fforum%2Fhk-handgun-talk%2F170075-lem-trigger-explanation.html&v=1&iid=74db2925b32bfe84&opt=true&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%2Fsearch%2Find ex.htm%3Fk%3Dlight&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&title=LEM%20Trigger%20explanation&txt=%3Cspan%3Elight%3C%2Fspan%3E) pre-travel.

Usually having no external safety, "finger off the trigger till you're ready to fire" is very important.
But the long pre-travel does afford a small amount of safety.

People seem to either love or hate LEM.
Always recommend folks rent/borrow before they buy.
The USP pistols have OEM LEM kits available.
And can be converted DA/SA to LEM or LEM to DA/SA rather easily.

P series are not factory supported convertible.
You can get the parts and convert DA/SA to LEM (with a hole where the external safety was).
But a factory P series LEM has no hole for the safety (LEM to DA/SA).

Also, for some inexplicable reason, the version numbers are not the same between P series and USP guns.
Be advised; P30 V1 (Light LEM) is NOT the same as USP V1.

That is all...

[berettabone]

I don't love or hate the LEM trigger. I just like/prefer the regular old Da/Sa trigger myself on my HK. It all depends on what your purpose is, with that particular firearm. There are triggers that are good for out at the range practicing, and triggers that are good for defense. It's hard to get the perfect one for both.

[ltxi]

I can't speak for the LEM of course but the LDA (I have 3) would require no manual of arms change at all. It's a 1911. Safety is the same, more trigger take up to the wall and then the let off. Actually when you squeeze to the breaking point, it's exactly like a 1911.
It's a bit more forgiving and doesn't frighten the sheep that are afraid of the hammer back look.

Yeah, I hear what you're sayin'. But I never could cotton to the LDA trigger, either. Long take up just doesn't feel right in a 1911 style platform. And cocked and locked visual phobia is a non-problem, far as I'm concerned .

[340pd]

Aha, over the last 11 months I have not shot my PM9 as it has been completely replaced by my P365's. Two days ago I thought I would take the Kahr to the range for a workout. I ran my target down to 30 feet and as I usually do, dry fired just to reacquaint myself with the trigger. I kept drawing back and drawing back what seemed for a lifetime and finally "click". I ran about 100 rounds which I considered to be so-so. This was from a gun that I fired a 249/250 during qualification a couple of years ago. That long DA pull got the best of me. Just to remind myself I need to vary my guns, I went back the following day with a 686+ with 3" barrel and had a very successful shoot even at 25 yds.
Moral of the story, be acquainted with everything you own.

[yqtszhj]

Moral of the story, be acquainted with everything you own.

Wise statement right there and very true.

[ltxi]

Wise statement right there and very true.

Yep....at the heart of my long time addiction to only two action types/styles. At least for carry/defense. 1911 and DA revolver.

[Barth]

Yep....at the heart of my long time addiction to only two action types/styles. At least for carry/defense. 1911 and DA revolver.

Hard to not love the classics.
Have four revolvers and still carry one as a BUG.
Have exactly one 1911 and carry it off and on.
Consider my Sig DA/SA guns classics and also carry on occasion.

But sadly, the polymer wonders of this world have taken their toll.
Mostly carry Hk and Ruger these days...

I'll never let go of the classics though :cool:

[swank]

Exactly!

no, they are not. Unless you pull the trigger all the way back, the trigger safety wont let the glock fire. and you can swap springs to make the trigger heavier than most DA revolver pulls, too. I detest glocks, but they are NOT unsafe. Dummies have had AD's with DAO revolvers, SA autos, etc.

[JohnR]

That’s why Glocks are unsafe, dummies do dumb things like letting the trigger get pulled all the way back.

[ltxi]

That’s why Glocks are unsafe, dummies do dumb things like letting the trigger get pulled all the way back.

...and with no effective short action safety to stop them. That triigger lever thingy "safety" is just a bad joke.

[swank]

people have fired ND's with DAO autos and revolvers, DA SA autos, and a LOT of times it's happened with SA auto's. I've personally seen it happen several times and had it happen myself once. Thought I'd shot my left arm, crossdraw. But when we went to score, there were 4 hits in the A zone, so a premature 1 handed point shot got the chest at 5 yds. :-) I've posted some sub .55 times for a reaction time, draw and hit the chest at arm's length, from a speed rig, from hands at sides, which were not very controlled, too. I've had one boot shot, showing off from behind the hip, IWB. Damned hooked front sight on a .22 unit on a Colt Gold Cup frame, got caught on my undershorts. Blew a hole out the back of my pants, powder-burned me pretty good, too. Those stupid holsters with the security tab near the trigger are just ASKING to shoot yourself. here's one for all the .45 ball believers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paxk_LPmdMI not only was he not downed, he was able to walk afterwards.


pics of the wound

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEuBXWujeYQ

Shot himself with a .44 mag to prove his armor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwBLL7Z3OvU

dont attempt suicide with a gun. It's a reflex to pull it off target as you fire

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=1+year+after+I+shot+myself

you can end up a vegetable that can't how to finish the job. a horrible "life". Instead, wear a diaper, use a rubber sheet, in a motel, rented for 2 days, so your family doesn't find you, a couple of plastic bags tied around your neck and a couple of over the counter sleeping pills. Dont take more, cause doing so might make you vomit.

[Barth]

Glock Leg will definitely wake you up in the morning - LOL

[berettabone]

Stupid holsters???????????????

[King Rat]

Bottom of grip/mag measurements
Side to side:
cm9/pm9 = .90 in.
P360 = .98 in.

Front to rear
cm9/pm9 = 1.91 in.
P380 = 1.73 in.

Interesting, I reported a test review that my club did a few months back. I posted on this forum. One thing I did not care for was the light striker fired trigger. Especially for a EDC firearm. I will say I shoot a lot of DAO. And I love the trigger on my both my Kahr CW380 and my Nano 9mm. Smooth, deliberate all the way through. One member of another forum who is very experienced shooter and a big fan of the Sig 365 said "Not sure if I like the trigger on the 365 for carry". I understand that triggers are subjective, but Kahr owners should be very proud of their tiggers. Aways highly praised.

Well after shooting a 1,000 rds though the 365. Which by the way is a lovely firearm. I made a decision to go and buy the Kahr CM9 which I just purchased today. If it is anywhere near as reliable, and smooth shooting as my Nano, I will be one very happy owner.

PS As some of you know, Kahr now has a $45.00 rebate.

I love the small guns. Looking forward to adding the CM to the others I own. the only one that is not a DAO is the Ruger LC9S which I no longer EDC as the trigger just became too light. It was down to 4lbs of pull, and did not like the fast break. That was when I found the Nano and never looked back.

https://i.imgur.com/IMFpzvq.jpg?4

[yqtszhj]

I love pictures full of small pocketable guns. Just awesome.