What's your opinion of the stock 2 dot sight on Kahrs?? [Archive]

lantern

08-17-2018, 04:16 PM

I have ALWAYS preferred 2 dot sights and when I stumbled onto Kahr I thought that someone had been listening to my thoughts with the small gun with 1911 pointability, low weight, low recoil, two dot sights and smooth DA for CCW.

I know three dot sights are more popular, but a single front dot with blacked out rear or two dot system works so much faster for me and takes steps out of the equation. Meaning, dot the i and bang vs line up the humps and divide the distance between them.

What say ye? There are no wrong answers. I just wondered if anyone else is as big of a fan of the 2 dot system as I or if some simply hate it.

If I had to complain I wish they would sell a 2 dot fiber optic or night sight.......or a combo(although I'm not a fan of the real estate the TFX takes up on short guns).

gale155

08-17-2018, 06:10 PM

ltxi

08-17-2018, 07:42 PM

I've never much liked a two dot system. Three dot, front only, white outline rear with or without front, or nothing all work well better for me.

ltxi

08-17-2018, 07:44 PM

Barth

08-17-2018, 08:05 PM

Bought my Kahr MK40 Elite with factory three dot NS.
I like them on that gun.
For me it's somewhat platform dependent.
Meaning I can favor different sights on different guns (can't explain why?)
Most of my guns run XS Big Dots.
Very fast flash sight picture for close quarters combat.

But I've got TFX Pro, Adjustable Meprolight, Heinie Straight Eights and Novak red fiber optics on various guns.
Go Figure - LOL

Scrambler

08-18-2018, 12:55 AM

Think a Kahr E9 was my first experience with the bar/dot system, then Sigs. Found they worked well with my aging eyes. Especially like the Ameriglo I-Dot, with the luminous green around the front tritium, for my Shield.
15650

lantern

08-18-2018, 09:13 AM

LOL! I knew my fellow i dot and straight 8 shooters would reply. I have XS big dots on my HK45c. Had to put a tiny bit of brighter paint at the back. For some reason I just wasn't picking the factory line up and since they don't have a pronounced notch I was a bit erratic. All is well now.

ripley16

08-18-2018, 04:18 PM

I have bar/dot sights on several guns, Kahrs, Sigs, Walther and Beretta. I've never really taken to them as they take longer for me to align and keep aligned. I much prefer three dot sights. For years I've thought that the easiest improvement Kahr could make in their line would be a nice set of upgraded three dot sights.

gale155

08-18-2018, 06:04 PM

Sights really don't matter to me on a self-defense gun, which most of mine are. As the late Larry Seecamp once said (and I'm paraphrasing), "If you need to use sights in a self-defense shooting situation, you'd better have a good defense attorney on retainer".

Whut?

Let me elaborate and clarify. If you are forced to shoot someone in self-defense, and they are so far away that you have to use sights, you may subsequently have a legal problem. In a real self-defense situation, you're not going to have time to gain a sight picture...it's going to be point and shoot IMO. In fact, sights are going to be the last thing on your mind, and you probably won't even notice them. Now for soldiers, and police officers in some situations, it's a different ballgame.

boscobarbell

08-18-2018, 06:58 PM

I've been gradually teaching myself (contrary to decades of prior training at Uncle Sam's expense) to shoot with both eyes open. I've found the Big Dot system to work extremely well in allowing me to point-shoot with just the teeniest "cheat" of picking up that big front dot. Up to 7 yards or so (well beyond any expected SD application) it works consistently well for center mass or cranium hits (not precise--no pretty groupings to brag about--but close enough for bad guy shooting).

Beyond that range, I have to revert back to strong-eye, sight picture shooting, and a three-dot system works best for me.

ltxi

08-18-2018, 07:08 PM

[QUOTE=ltxi;400794]

Let me elaborate and clarify. If you are forced to shoot someone in self-defense, and they are so far away that you have to use sights, you may subsequently have a legal problem. In a real self-defense situation, you're not going to have time to gain a sight picture...it's going to be point and shoot IMO. In fact, sights are going to be the last thing on your mind, and you probably won't even notice them. Now for soldiers, and police officers in some situations, it's a different ballgame.

Disagree.... Don't know to put this more friendly like but, this is spray and pray philosophy.

gale155

08-18-2018, 07:49 PM

[QUOTE=gale155;400824]

Disagree.... Don't know to put this more friendly like but, this is spray and pray philosophy.

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. :) And I didn't say anything about "spray and pray"...I said point and shoot.

boscobarbell

08-18-2018, 09:02 PM

[QUOTE=ltxi;400827]

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. :) And I didn't say anything about "spray and pray"...I said point and shoot.

I think your point is well-taken, Gale.

I just did a quick Google search, and it's pretty hard to even find a SD shooting beyond 10 yards. The 3/3/3 Rule isn't exact, but it does cover most SD shootings. There are other studies out there that show how exceedingly rare it is to find anything beyond 21', which is backed by FBI statistics. Police and military routinely qualify handguns at 25 yards, because they are expected to engage at those distances if need be. But civilians are expected to safely extract themselves under exactly the same conditions.

Sure, there may be exceptions, particularly in Stand Your Ground states, where a property owner may be authorized to shoot at those distances. Or maybe the 1-in-a-million scenario in a parking garage, for example, when someone is brandishing a weapon and tailing you.

But in almost every conceivable case, you will have to use your firearm up-close-and-personal, or you will have to explain to a jury why you didn't extricate yourself from a danger when you likely had a clear path of egress.

ltxi

08-19-2018, 07:02 PM

[QUOTE=ltxi;400827]

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. :) And I didn't say anything about "spray and pray"...I said point and shoot.

Which is, to my mind, the same as spray and pray. If you meant point shoot, which is a whole 'nother animal with an implied level of competence, then I'm good with that. I have a couple of guns, Glocks, in active service I don't point shoot well enough to dispense with some reliance on sights in a stress situation. All others I carry for defense sights are just okay to haves for close quarters work.

ltxi

08-19-2018, 07:28 PM

[QUOTE=gale155;400828]

I think your point is well-taken, Gale.

I just did a quick Google search, and it's pretty hard to even find a SD shooting beyond 10 yards. The 3/3/3 Rule isn't exact, but it does cover most SD shootings. There are other studies out there that show how exceedingly rare it is to find anything beyond 21', which is backed by FBI statistics. Police and military routinely qualify handguns at 25 yards, because they are expected to engage at those distances if need be. But civilians are expected to safely extract themselves under exactly the same conditions.

Sure, there may be exceptions, particularly in Stand Your Ground states, where a property owner may be authorized to shoot at those distances. Or maybe the 1-in-a-million scenario in a parking garage, for example, when someone is brandishing a weapon and tailing you.

But in almost every conceivable case, you will have to use your firearm up-close-and-personal, or you will have to explain to a jury why you didn't extricate yourself from a danger when you likely had a clear path of egress.

Generally, I agree. Where this path of thought most often fails is "in defense of others".....something I've always been/felt bound to as necessary do and so prepare for.

gale155

08-20-2018, 08:45 AM

[QUOTE=gale155;400828]

Which is, to my mind, the same as spray and pray. If you meant point shoot, which is a whole 'nother animal with an implied level of competence, then I'm good with that. I have a couple of guns, Glocks, in active service I don't point shoot well enough to dispense with some reliance on sights in a stress situation. All others I carry for defense sights are just okay to haves for close quarters work.

Yes, I meant point shooting...sorry about the "and". :) I'm not the best shot in the world, but have had a considerable amount of training in point shooting over the years, including shooting from the hip. It's not difficult, but as you allude to it does take practice.

gale155

08-20-2018, 01:37 PM

[QUOTE=boscobarbell;400829]

Generally, I agree. Where this path of thought most often fails is "in defense of others".....something I've always been/felt bound to as necessary do and so prepare for.

Defense of others is a sticky subject, and one I hate to even offer an opinion on. For civilians, laws on this vary from state to state, and all of us would be well-advised to be familiar with the laws that apply in our particular state.

Having said that, I'll tell you my own personal views on "defense of others" here in the 2nd Amendment friendly state of Missouri. First and foremost, I remind myself, and do so fairly frequently, that I'm no longer a police officer. That may seem silly, but I think it's helpful...at least for me. Secondly, if I ever decide to come to the aid of another person with my firearm, it's going to have to be something dire, totally obvious and in very close proximity to where I happen to be at the time.

berettabone

08-20-2018, 04:07 PM

I like the Kahr sights which is also why I like the XS Big Dots. For me, quicker acquisition to line up sights. I don't have to worry about getting a dot between 2 dots and making sure that everything lines up in the proper position. Doting the eye is much faster.

berettabone

08-20-2018, 04:10 PM

I also agree that you will most likely not have time to line up your sights in a defensive shooting. The cowboys can disagree. I wouldn't bother asking the bad person to wait a second while you get everything lined up.

Bawanna

08-20-2018, 05:29 PM

ltxi

08-20-2018, 07:17 PM

[QUOTE=ltxi;400846]

Defense of others is a sticky subject, and one I hate to even offer an opinion on. For civilians, laws on this vary from state to state, and all of us would be well-advised to be familiar with the laws that apply in our particular state.

Having said that, I'll tell you my own personal views on "defense of others" here in the 2nd Amendment friendly state of Missouri. First and foremost, I remind myself, and do so fairly frequently, that I'm no longer a police officer. That may seem silly, but I think it's helpful...at least for me. Secondly, if I ever decide to come to the aid of another person with my firearm, it's going to have to be something dire, totally obvious and in very close proximity to where I happen to be at the time.

That's not silly, not at all. Decoupling from a LEO mindset, especially if LE has been a career, is a major adjustment.

ltxi

08-20-2018, 07:26 PM

lantern

08-22-2018, 01:01 PM

Until you look the elephant in the eye, no one knows how they will do. Might fumble out of the holster, might forget where the trigger is, might freeze up like a rusty nut.

Take any training exercise and inject a half gallon of adrenaline and a pint of fear and it's a whole new ball game.

They say your training will take over and carry the day. Maybe so.

I love this post. It's also the reason TRAINING with sights(with the way I shoot) is important IMO. Train train train until the muscle memory feels like pointing and shooting. Well....at least that's my goal. Putting it down to dumb luck with no training and pointing just because I feel sights don't matter in a close quarters situation is something I feel is too much risk. Now, maybe some folks like to train point shooting or hip fire. That's a horse of a different color.

It all depends on how one wants to train their mind and body for when situations arise that usually take calm thought out of the equation and insert frantic motor skills.

markman

08-22-2018, 01:27 PM

Speaking of point shooting, I don't know if anyone has seen this guy or not, but he can do some pretty amazing shooting with out sights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjil10f6LeI

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjil10f6LeI)http://www.tacticalshooting.com/

lantern

08-22-2018, 02:20 PM

First, thanks for posting this! Also, the banter in the comments was entertaining as well. The guy is a heck of a shot.

I thought for a second you were going to link to a Bob Munden video with his amazing hip shooting. I was mesmorized by him when I was a kid all the way till he passed away.

Bob Munden

https://youtu.be/wpvCZwoj3tE

markman

08-22-2018, 05:03 PM

Bob Munden was excellent, there is no doubt. I always wanted to see him and a few others in person.

First, thanks for posting this! Also, the banter in the comments was entertaining as well. The guy is a heck of a shot.

I thought for a second you were going to link to a Bob Munden video with his amazing hip shooting. I was mesmorized by him when I was a kid all the way till he passed away.

Bob Munden

https://youtu.be/wpvCZwoj3tE

gale155

08-23-2018, 07:41 AM

I love this post. It's also the reason TRAINING with sights(with the way I shoot) is important IMO. Train train train until the muscle memory feels like pointing and shooting. Well....at least that's my goal. Putting it down to dumb luck with no training and pointing just because I feel sights don't matter in a close quarters situation is something I feel is too much risk. Now, maybe some folks like to train point shooting or hip fire. That's a horse of a different color.

It all depends on how one wants to train their mind and body for when situations arise that usually take calm thought out of the equation and insert frantic motor skills.

My training always focused a quite a bit on shooting from the hip, in that in a real situation you might not have the time or space to bring the pistol up to eye level. Another technique taught in recent years was the flash sight picture, where you focus on the front sight only. The only problem I had with that is that in a real self-defense situation, I think it would be difficult to focus intensely on anything other than the threat...at least it would be for me.

Speaking of focusing on the threat, I learned during FATS training that I was doing just that...perhaps to a fault. FATS is an excellent training tool, btw, and about as close to the real thing as you can get (except the recoil). Anyway, I would invariably put a shot directly on the gun or knife the bad guy was holding. This didn't happen in every scenario, but did happen at least once during every session. I finally got the point where I would tease the instructors that since my first hit(s) didn't stop the bad guy, I was trying to shoot the weapon out of his hand. :p I'm not nearly a good enough shot to do that even if I tried, and finally concluded that my primary focus was subconsciously shifting from the person to the actual weapon he was holding.

340pd

08-23-2018, 08:26 AM

I teach a basic handgun course and the last night we supply a half dozen guns in various models and calibers for each student to shoot. Of all the guns provided, those with a bar dot tend to produce the best results for new shooters and the standout gun appears to be my W. German P226 with bar/dot sights. For some reason that gun works well for nearly everyone who picks it up.

markman

08-23-2018, 11:18 AM

Here's another interesting gentleman, Paul Castle and his "Center Axis Relock".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqI-ELm34EE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqI-ELm34EE)

lantern

08-23-2018, 01:57 PM

Holy crap. I could watch that guy all day.

Armybrat

08-23-2018, 09:02 PM

I like the bar dot sights, as my old eyeballs can’t see sights that are not highlighted.

dustnchips

08-24-2018, 09:27 AM

I prefer the night sights. They are bigger and easier to see. I have them on both of my Kahrs. A big dot front and no rear might be interesting to try.

lantern

08-24-2018, 06:50 PM

I prefer the night sights. They are bigger and easier to see. I have them on both of my Kahrs. A big dot front and no rear might be interesting to try.

I prefer two dots or one dot. I think you'd like the big dot front with blacked out rear if you decide to give it a whirl. Super fast due to the distraction of the rear being gone.

Cynthia S

08-31-2018, 11:08 PM

In my youth I was near sighted (20/80), so wore glasses all the time. Fast forward, now in my seventies, I see perfectly well at distance, but poorly up close. So, I have been shooting without glasses, as I normally don't wear glasses unless I'm reading, shopping, or at my computer. This puts the 2 dots on my CT380 out of focus with back sight worse out of focus than the front sight. In fact, I have been straining to even see the back dot. So halfway thru my third range trip, I stopped using the back dot altogether, and put the front dot between the black castle parapets of my rear sight and my grouping tightened up noticeably.

One of these trips, I'll shoot with my trifocals on as it is conceivable I may be wearing them during a SD incident.

Cynthia

CM9

09-10-2018, 08:06 PM

I am 82 and have failing eyesight due to glaucoma damage, I find that the dot over the post sights on my CM9 help me a great deal for quick sighting.

linksrds

09-17-2018, 06:41 PM

I find the bar dot much faster for me.

leftysixty

09-17-2018, 08:33 PM

I feel that the bar/dot and straight eight sight pictures are less confusing, faster, and more accurate than other iron sight types!

As always, YMMV :yo:

CPTKILLER

09-19-2018, 07:57 AM

The Karhr sights are not my favorite.

Wlfman13

09-20-2018, 12:23 AM

I bought a P380, and continuously bemoaned the fact that it didn’t have 3-dot sights, and planned to switch to night sights as much to switch to 3-dot sights, as to be able to see them in dim light.

Fast-forward a couple years. I bought a CT380 with 3-dot combat sights, and thought I confirmed what I thought I already “knew”...that I was more accurate with 3-dot sights. REALLY?

Maybe a side-by-side test is needed...

Fast-forward again. My CT380 with 3-dot sights vs my P380 with bar-dot sights. 20rds @ 3yds, 20rds @ 7yds, & 10rds @ 15yds.

The results are attached. It turns out that I am more accurate with the P380, and they actually seem to be quicker to get back on target.

15702

-wlf

lantern

09-20-2018, 09:29 AM

That's my experience with the two sight designs. Thanks for the pics! That's quite a statement considering the grip advantage of the ct! But, the CT sure is a looker. Makes me want an all metal version.

Wlfman13

09-22-2018, 01:22 PM

...Makes me want an all metal version.

Ah.., my brain hadn’t even gone there. I mean, I had pondered the desire for a metal P380, but I just don’t see a huge benefit over the Tupperware version, given the role the P380 fills in my gun “roster”. However, and this is a “big however”, the thought of a metal CT380 does excite me. Especially if there were a way to make the slide heavier and the recoil springs softer. That would be one heck of a range gun, IWB gun, purse gun (not that I carry a purse). The image I have in mind is a T380, with wood grips. Ponder THAT one, for a bit.

Thank you, lantern, for making me add a hypothetical gun to the bucket list.

-wlf