Modified A&G Grip Extension PM9

[Ol'coot]

This post is a follow up (http://kahrtalk.com/pm-series-pistols/3086-another-mag-extension-pm9.html)to my previous post about the A&G grip extension for the 7 round mag that I ordered. I received it yesterday and quickly installed it on my 7 round mag, it was not what I wanted at all, The gap and mismatch looks awful. I have linked a photo posted by "OldLinclon" for reference.

http://kahrtalk.com/members/oldlincoln-albums-oldlincolns-pm9-picture292-7rd-mag-spacer-mag-pulled-down.jpg

What I really wanted was to fill the gap between my 6 round mag and hand grip for a more seamless look. I have very large hands and carry my PM9 with a Pearce Mag extender install to give my pinky finger somewhere to rest and have found this also improves my overall accuracy but I was not happy with the damn gap, it just looks unfinished. :mad:

http://www.photographicendeavors.com/img/s7/v7/p739655348-3.jpg

So I thought I would attempt to modify the A&G extender to fill the gap if used on my 6 round mag. So out to the workshop I went and after some measuring I fired up the mill and started machining. Here are some photos of the completely modified version. I also modified one of my Pearce Mag extenders to be used with it or it can be used with the flush mag plate that came with the A&G extender. :D, I fitted it so that there is no interference when installing the mag, it seats up and locks in place just fine with no extra force required. I am very please with the final results. This is how it should look IMHO.

Flush mount
http://www.photographicendeavors.com/img/s9/v13/p302035265-3.jpg

With Pearce Ext attached
http://www.photographicendeavors.com/img/s10/v18/p16578619-3.jpg

[Bawanna]

Beautiful. That's perfect. Absolutely the way they should be.

And we finally got ryoung to wish for something useful. Almost like a double play.
Plus one on the PM45 base though, nice wish.

[gb6491]

Ol'coot,
That's excellent work and a very clean look; well done!
Regards,
Greg

[rholmes69]

Now that looks darn nice. You should make them and sell them. Looks great!

[OldLincoln]

That looks great! If they had been for the 8rd mag, I might have done something like that. Too bad you can't have all their models in a pile and see what can be made out of the for the Kahr. Seems several of the plastic frames look pretty close for a non-operational part.

[Ol'coot]

That looks great! If they had been for the 8rd mag, I might have done something like that. Too bad you can't have all their models in a pile and see what can be made out of the for the Kahr. Seems several of the plastic frames look pretty close for a non-operational part.

I agree, I wish I could go to a local store and physically slip each of the different models on the mags to see what could be easily modified to have the best fit and function. I am surprised that I cannot find a link to the A&G Supply the actual manufactures site at all. All I can find are bits and pieces of information and a few photos scattered all of the web. The has to be catalog somewhere that list all of their products.

[Bawanna]

I keep coming back and looking at this again and again. That is really a classy piece of work. Clean and professional and looks like it just works like a champ. If I send you ryoungs PM45 could you work your magic some and send me the results?
I gotta get serious and find me a talent of some sort, people get nervous whenever I use tools that plug in though. Kind of limits the possibilities some.

[jocko]

super work. I sometime wonder If kahr leaves that ugly ass gap there because of possable slight variations in the grip/floor plate extension itself. custom fitting like you did would be personal to each gun and IMO this is class "A" workman ship.

So much talent on this forum, that one would think by now with over 3500 posts even that the master of B. S. would start showing off some of his grip work to us newbies.

[Bawanna]

3500 post?
Who you talking bout Cletus?

[Bawanna]

One of my favorites.

[Tilos]

Ol'coot:

Nice!

Tilos

[Ol'coot]

Many thanks to all that have commented on my handy work. This was not a very difficult modification I just needed to remember to measure twice or even three time and cut once LOL!:roll: I am a toolmaker/moldmaker by training but have been in upper management for over 25 years now so I do not get to spend much time actually making anything. I have a small (Chinese) hobby lathe and mill in my home shop than is very capable for small jobs like this one.


Now that looks darn nice. You should make them and sell them. Looks great!

I have given a lot of thought to actually doing that very thing as I get very frustrated when something is not they way I think it should be and there are no commercial solutions available to fix the issue. I wonder just how much actual demand is out there for this item, I would just start out with designing and tooling up for the PM9 and doing it right so that there is a very good fit but enough tolerance designed in to ensure it works all of the time with not additional fitting required. I would want to design a spacer for the 6, 7 and even the 8 round mags. Then move to the other models if this was successful.


super work. I sometime wonder If Kahr leaves that ugly ass gap there because of possible slight variations in the grip/floor plate extension itself. custom fitting like you did would be personal to each gun and IMO this is class "A" workman ship.

I doubt that there it very much variation in the manufacturing process, as injection molds are very precise and very reliable and can produced many tens of thousand of parts before any appreciable wear would occur. A good example of this is the CT laserguard is designed to mount on the trigger guard and the LG-437 fits the P9,P40,PM9,and PM40. And mine fits the PM9 like it was custom fitted. The Magazines are die stamped and formed so variation there will be minimum as well

[rholmes69]

IIRC, there is this same gap on all the PM's with the "flush" mag, right? I would think many a person on here would be all over getting one of these. And the 40 and 9 mags are interchangeable, so there wouldn't be any tooling difference there.

What is the cost of the A&G Grip?

[Ol'coot]

The A&G grip cost $12.99 each plus shipping of less than $6.00, so just under $19.00

[Tilos]

Ol'coot:
I have a simular backround and miss being able to "turn handles" and put "chips on the floor".
I have looked into college classes just to have access to machinery.

I am interested in knowing more about these hobby machines.
Are these type machines available at places like Harbor Freight and can they be run on 110v?
Any info would be appreciated.

Sorry for the drift.
Tilos

[Ol'coot]

Tilos,
I have sent you a PM about my hobby machines

[jreXD9]

I got one of those and the gap isn't nearly as bad as what's in your picture. It looks 100% better now.

[kjg26]

I'd take one of each; 6, 7, and 8. I just picked up a pierce extension today and it helps with the 6 rounder, not with the look though.

[OldLincoln]

I got one of those and the gap isn't nearly as bad as what's in your picture. It looks 100% better now.As explained in my original post (http://kahrtalk.com/general-discussion/2756-make-your-own-ext-mag-cover.html#post30310), that pic is with the mag pulled out as far as it could go. Other pics show more.

[Riccardo]

http://kahrtalk.com/members/oldlincoln-albums-oldlincolns-pm9-picture292-7rd-mag-spacer-mag-pulled-down.jpg

http://www.photographicendeavors.com/img/s7/v7/p739655348-3.jpg

This just makes me so mad! Kahr buyers pay a premium for a beautiful and well crafted piece of equipment. Then to stick us with something like this???? I cannot believe there isn't a better product on the market. As many others have said, I would definitely buy a few.

[OldLincoln]

Posts upstream show it corrected. Might be an opportunity to figure out how to do it and sell ready-to-install perfect spacers on the forum. If the market exists, expand into selling 6,7 and 8 round complete perfect mags. Hey there's your product name right there. Not every day I give away a good idea.

[Riccardo]

Posts upstream show it corrected. Might be an opportunity to figure out how to do it and sell ready-to-install perfect spacers on the forum. If the market exists, expand into selling 6,7 and 8 round complete perfect mags. Hey there's your product name right there. Not every day I give away a good idea.

I can't even break down and clean my gun without f'ing up. I've got no chance to machine something like that...to a level of quality I would want. It just amazes me that nobody else does it. And is the A&G really that bad? I can't imagine they would even sell something with a gap like that...Looks like it came out of a happy meal.

[garyb]

Amazing work Ol'coot! All of us Kahr owners are dealing with the same issue with stainless steel showing on the mags, both with and without the extensions. You certainly have a talent. I did a similar thing (home do it yourselfer) with Agrip material on the PM40 6 round mag with extension AND the 5 round mag which does not have an extension and SHOULD fit flush or at least match the pistol grip. Your work is far more professional, but outside of my scope. I simply do not like the appearance of the stainless, but it may not bother everyone in the same way as it does me. You can see the Agrip solution on my separate thread named something to do with Agrip. Again, beautiful job. Please send your photos to Kahr.

[Ol'coot]

Amazing work Ol'coot! All of us Kahr owners are dealing with the same issue with stainless steel showing on the mags, both with and without the extensions. You certainly have a talent. I did a similar thing (home do it yourselfer) with Agrip material on the PM40 6 round mag with extension AND the 5 round mag which does not have an extension and SHOULD fit flush or at least match the pistol grip. Your work is far more professional, but outside of my scope. I simply do not like the appearance of the stainless, but it may not bother everyone in the same way as it does me. You can see the Agrip solution on my separate thread named something to do with Agrip. Again, beautiful job. Please send your photos to Kahr.

Garyb,

Thanks for the very kind words and encouragement, I want to move forward on making a run of prototype parts to see just what kind of market really exist for this item. I have very positive feed back from everyone that has seen it. My biggest issue now is finding the time to complete the 3D model as I am very busy at work and just have a hard time getting back behind the CAD system at home. I hope to make some prototypes for the 6, 7 and 8 round mags.

[garyb]

I am certain there will be a market for what you have done with your model of Kahr. However, there are so many models with the same issue, that it may require variations in fitting. Likewise, there may be liability issues to consider/research. Please understand that I am not trying to discourage you nor insult you in any way, but the reality is that mass production for business is different from felf gratifying hobby work. (I got myself into taxidermy years ago, because it was something I always wanted to do since a little boy. I thought it might make a good part time income. Now my custom detail taxidermy work is at par or maybe even a little better than the production work of some of the local taxidermy businesses. I already have a wonderful full time job with a very good income and am very close to retirement at which time, the taxidermy might be more welcome. For now, the taxidermy Hobby became WORK. I decided to back off and now I only do a max of 6 shoulder mounts and focus on limited subjects (deer or bear) each winter. I don't want to be tied down in a shop all year. I have a life and want to be completed with the winter taxidermy jobs before spring turkey season kicks in. Likewise, taking inquiry calls and taking in animals during the hunting season (which is my passion and healing time) is a pain in the .....). So the message is that, what was once a fun and fulfilling hobby and life long goal, has now turned into aggravating work. You probably don't need to be warned to be careful with your project - as your work is great and there is a good opportunity for business. Perhaps Kahr will pick up on it if approached? Best of luck.

[Ol'coot]

GaryB

Thanks for the insight and advise as open constructive comments are always appreciated. The design and construction of precision tooling for manufacture of tight tolerance plastic parts from engineering resins is my profession of 38 years and l agree with all your comments. I have found it is better to approach this type of thing slowly and consider all of the risk before jumping in head first. I am also only a few years from retirement and looking for things that I can do and still stay in my area of expertise to occupy my time and maybe supplement my income a little. I spent some time on CAD system last night and have the design for the 6 round magazine 95% complete. My next step will to be make a few prototype parts using the (SLS) Selective laser sintering process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_laser_sintering) . This highly accurate process will give me a few prototype parts that can be thoroughly tested without the high cost of making a injection mold. As with anything there are cost, time and risk involved and each must be weight out against the final benefit to determine if the endeavor is actually worth perusing. I will keep everyone update on my progress and may even ask for some people to to take one of the prototype parts and test it to get real world feed back before moving forward with any molds.

[garyb]

Good for you! Sounds like you enjoy your field of expertise and obviously you are great at it. I am guessing that you are on to something. It will benefit Kahr owners for sure. Best of luck.

[Suprman]

if you make some for the 5 and 6 round pm40 mags, i would be very interested. hate that gap with a passion and my friend got his finger caught by the gap in the 6rd mag when firing the gun.

[REPR3D]

Wow, that's clean! Kahr NEED's to take some design notes. I agree with the premium we pay for these that there is a lot of improvement to be made in the mag fit dept. If you decide to sell these, i'm in line! Great job!

[copterdrvr]

Ol'coot, that is some BEAUTIFUL work! I'm so envious of your skills and expertise!

My father was a model maker, primarily in the aerospace iindustry, so you know the skills he had as he did it all the old-fashioned way with no CNC stuff! If I had his knowledge and expertise, I'd be running my own custom gun shop!!!

I would pay top dollar for this work as my PM9, CW9 and CW40 actually cause me considerable pain on occasion during extended shooting. I don't have big hands or fat fingers and my pinky finger gets the CRAP pinched out of it during extended shooting.

Not only would I love to be a "test dummy" for your work, but I would be happy to pay for the previlage!!!!! I have a Pierce extension on my P380 (not an issue) and my PM9 but not on my CW9 or CW40. The P380 isn't an issue as my pinky finger lays right in the center of the extension-and it doesn't shoot hard anyway. Even without the extension, the CW9 and CW40 both "bite" my finger.

[Ol'coot]

Thanks guy for the very kind words, I have been so busy at work that the Magazine extension has taken a back seat, I have the design work done and would like to have a few made using a rapid prototype process called Selective Laser Sintering SLS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_laser_sintering) that would allow me to validate the design function before committing to tooling. Please be patient as I must move slowly as I have a very limited time and budget for this type of venture. I will post photos and report on my progress as it is made.

[copterdrvr]

You're most welcome and keep us posted-I'll be ALL over this if and when it becomes available!!!! Can't believe how much more "finished" it makes the pistols look, regardless of the "comfort factor"!!!

[mr. bggs]

i want one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!or two!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nosferatu2]

Olo'coot - Just out of curiosity what CAD system do you use?
FWIW, I'm proficient in Pro/E WildFire 5.0 (now "Creo" - WTF), and Solidworks 2010.

[Ol'coot]

I am proficient in Catia V5, KeyCreator 9.03 and can also do most anything I need to in Unigraphics 5. I actually own a seat of KeyCreator and is what I use for my personal designs and is the software that I used to designed the Mag Spacer.

[Suprman]

Anything new on this?

[dss07]

Kindly update us on developments (if any), Ol'Coot. I am sure there are many of us who have been standing on the sidelines waiting to jump on your excellent idea/product. I have a Kahr MK9, and your flush mount solution looks exactly like what I've been looking for. It also seems to give those of us with smaller hands some pinky surface area without adding as much to the overall height of the gun as the pearce.

[72guy]

Tony,
Beautiful work!
You've mentioned startup costs and budget constraints in your posts. I was wondering if folks prepaid. Would that help remove that hurdle and be something you would consider?
If so, put me down for 6.
Regards

[Rainman48314]

I'm interested in two

[kahrking]

Very nice, Im also interested.

[Ol'coot]

Hello everyone,

Just a quick update to all of the people here that have requested one of my mag grip extensions. I have completed my market study to see how long it would that for me to recoup my initial investment and I am sad to say that I do not think that I will take this design to market . The time required and number of parts that would have to be sold to break even much less get any return on my investment makes moving forward with this project just to much of a risk.

First, let me explain. There is a very limited market for an item that is custom designed to only fit two specific guns the Kahr PM9 and PM40 with flush magazines A completely different design and tooling is required for the extended magazines and again for the PM45. This is just to much of a financial risk for me at this time in my life. I also know that anytime a product is marketed that can only be used on a limited number products that could be modified or updated at anytime without my input thus rendering my product obsolete except for the number of guns that are already in the field.

I apologize to all those who have waited to purchase one of these mag extensions and hope that Kahr might see the demand for this product and move forward with their own design to eliminate the gap and give the pistol a more finished appearance as they are ultimately in control of the life of the current product.

Many thanks to all that have given encouragement and offered support for this product....

[Thunder71]

If you change your mind, please let us know - that looks great and I'd be in for at least 2.

[72guy]

Tony,
Thanks for the update.
You made a prototype for your gun. So, putting the idea of full scale production on the back burner. Do you have any interest in making one offs, as time permitts, for individual buyers?

I have no idea of the time and materials involved in making your improved extension. But maybe you could throw a number $$ out there that would work for you. See who and how many bite?
Regards

[Bawanna]

For sure pencil me in for a couple if you make PM45 versions. I understand your reluctance to start producing though and even the one offs while not risky can be a burden.
Course lay out a dollar amount and no promised delivery date so you can play at your leisure might be not a bad thing.
No pressure of course.

I'd of course make a couple PM45 versions first to make sure of the process and I of course would be honored to trial and eval and of course pay all expenses less beverages and business trip expenditures.

I was tempted to give it a go myself with acraglas but I suspect it wouldn't turn out near pretty as yours and probably add a pound and a half to the gun.

It surely does look mighty nice.

[Bawanna]

The gap doesn't bother me at all really. Never gave it a thought till it got tossed around here but Ol Coots extension mod looks so cool its a must have to me.

[gagnejs8]

Those look awesome. I'd also be in line if you did it in your spare time after work! If you don't mind sharing how you did it, someone here may have the time or desire to tinker in their basements after work!

[Ol'coot]

First, thanks to all of you for the very nice comments as I take a lot of pride in my craftsmanship and it is always nice to get positive comments from your peers.

Now to reply to those requesting a modified A&G extension. The modification to the A&G extension looks great on the gun but in reality is very flimsy after the modification as the modification takes a portion of it down to a very thin less than a 1/32 thick and it would not hold up very long with mag changes. I do however keep it on my PM9 all of the time just for the improvement in appearance and if it were to fail it would not affect the function of the weapon. I do not use it while practicing at the range more than firing one full mag through it each trip. This the reason why I wanted to make my own design from the ground up. My design attaches to the magazine in a different manner that make it very strong. It does not just slip down on top of the magazine as I do not like this method at all but attaches in a manner similar to a normal base plate.

I have not completely abandon this project it just has been placed on the back burner until I can find a cheaper method to tool it and then be very creative with funding the tool development. I am looking into what I can do to reduce the complexity of the part design and thus reduce the tooling cost

Sorry but I cannot take on the task of modifying the A&G extensions as I truly believe that none you would not be happy with a modified one and I would not put my name on what I believe is an inferior product. If I can find a way to reduce the initial upfront cost for tooling to the point of even breaking even with a 100 part run I may move forward again as I think I can move 100 of these pretty quickly from the overwhelming response I have seen on the forum. There are some other rapid prototype processes available that I am looking into that do not require as much upfront cost but the per piece cost does go up. Once I have a firm cost for this type of venture I may make a one time run . I will keep everyone informed if I can find a way to move forward.

[72guy]

Tony,
We're not Aholes, we're just persistent. ;-)
Can you share with us the upfront dollar figure that you're looking at to cover the tooling costs?
I, for one, would be more than willing to make a donation to Tony's Tooling Fund. Let the interested Forum members absorb your startup expenses and then you are free from the financial risk and burden. We realize that there is still a cost involved with your time. And only you can put a dollar figure on that. If you end up collecting enough money to get this thing rolling. Then all is good. If the funds fall short of what is needed. Take the collected money and make a charitable donation, to the charity of your choice, under the name of KahrTalk. Remember, strength in numbers.

Regards

[bigmacque]

I'd buy a couple from you ol coot, name a price.

[bigmacque]

I'm with 72guy on that suggestion, too. I'd be looking for PM9 mags. I'd pay you for the mags, the extensions, a markup, plus the work, in addition to contributing to some startup expenses.

[MBFD]

I started reading about this mag complaint from another thread that referred to this thread and I'm saying to myself yes, yes, oh hell yes that's just what I want.
That's the way my Kahr SHOULD look.
I'm in for at least two.
Not going to be made - ahh crap.

Now this thread kind of begs the question - why the hell doesn't Kahr sell their mags looking just like this. I'm sure they have heard from many unhappy Kahr owners.
Kahr could probably make it even thinner with a slight tang for the second finger.

[TL1852]

Now that is the kind of mag I want on my PM9. Looks great. Maybe Kahr will get the message and offer one in place of that sorry looking thing they provide.

[G3709]

One possibility is for A&G to produce this gip extension with a higher sidewall that then should cover the exposed stainless steel section. The K9 polymer base plate does have higher sidewall to cover that exposed part.

[gagnejs8]

One possibility is for A&G to produce this gip extension with a higher sidewall that then should cover the exposed stainless steel section. The K9 polymer base plate does have higher sidewall to cover that exposed part.

Try finding this company anywhere. No website. I've looked into trying to contact them but if I recall the only thing I could find was a PO box somewhere in NH.

[G3709]

To gagnejs8, I am sorry that I miss the maker of Pearce grip extension. Pearce and A&G both produce grip extension for Kahr. If we all could write to Pearce may be we can persuade Pearce to change the design to higher sidewall. I have a Pearce grip extension and it looks the same as A&G's.

[tohotim]

The fact that Kahr or another aftermarket firm has not picked up on this opportunity since 2010 is pretty amazing... short math on just the cost of the 'polymer' material has to be fractions of .01. CAD or CNC Tooling < $10K and a potential price point of +/- $25, maybe $30-40 because Kahr owners are just willing to pay more.. considering what Taran has done for the G43. Then again, how long did it take Glock to come out with the G43.

Angel investors standing by with proof of concept...