Tight Fitting Handguns

[OldLincoln]

I recently read articles regarding Les Baer Custom guns. I was curious about what was custom about them and the article made it very clear. His guns are hand fitted and very tight. You can read the article here: Visit to Les Baer Custom Factory. (http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=35872)

I read in another article how moving components are fitted very tight and hand lapped to work. As an old guy I recall hand lapping valves in engines and it was tedious work to do it right. You put an abrasive compound between two parts and rub them together until they fit perfectly. These guns are highly rated and reportedly shoot very well and accurately.

Reading about the Glock torture test, I wondered how you could bury a gun is sand and mud with the slide open and simply pick it up, shake it a time or two, and shoot a clip without a missfire. Obviously, if sand were blocking components they could not function right? But what if they were put together with very loose tolerances so sand would be pushed into crevices? Wouldn't that explain some of the how Glock does it?

At the same time, Kahr has come under fire for break-in issues and parts not working together well. Some open up the new gun and find shavings etc in the works. Could it be that Kahr builds a tight fitting close tolerances gun that needs to be "lapped in"?

If so, you could pay for the many hours in the factory and the cost would probably double at least, or you can do it yourself by thorough cleaning, shooting a lot to lap it in, and by polishing some areas smooth. Perhaps if the "Lap-It-In" mentality were part of the purchase plan more people would find themselves satisfied with the products.

The resistance is those who buy the Les Baer pay big money to have the work done for them. Also, spending that level of money may indicate they have purchased other guns prior and know something about them.

I still think a few folks here could do well establishing a relationship with Kahr and providing a service to do the work for those willing to pay for it. work like tear it completely down and hand fit each piece like ensuring clearances and tightness where needed, parts are solid, lap the slide action until smooth and the mag well so it drops mags correctly. Shoot it until broken in and sight it absolutely true. Any parts needing replaced would be done by Kahr without discussion. Heck, the gun could even go in a special presentation box with their actual signature.

Now I see this as a part time job for a retired guy who knows guns and is between Kahr and the customer. But once it caught on, Kahr could sell them as special hand crafted guns for more money selling them direct.

What do you think?

PS: I don't qualify for the job, but I'm sure others at the forum do.

[Tack]

I own a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special. It is without a doubt the finest 1911 I've ever owned, and I've owned a few. Baer guns are tight when delivered, and they recommend 500 rounds through them without cleaning to let the parts lap in.

Once they reach that point of break in, they tend to stay that way in my experience.

My TRS has had approximately 300 jacketed rounds through it. The rest have been 200gr. LSWC reloads, approximately 6000 worth. In that, I've had one malfunction, and that was the fault of my reload.

I find it refreshing that Baer and Kahr tell their customers to shoot a quanity of rounds for break in.

However I do think Kahr would have less issues if they cleaned out the metal shavings from manufacture prior to shipping. That being said, I've had excellent results with any QC complaints with Kahr.

Oh and if Kahr wants to put me on the payroll to break in guns, I'm more than happy to sign up.
Tack

[jlottmc]

Sign me up for that. But being the gun whore I am, I'll do it to all of them.

[jocko]

Old Lincoln. One can just buy a kahr for $500 and send it to Cylinder and Slide and they will do the Les Bauer type stuff for about a grand. Not sure kahr colud sell their guns for $1500 and be in business today. Basically 90% + are good to go out of the box and some do need sme TLC but also I have read of some Les Bauer handguns having to go back also, The power of advertising goes a long way as u well know, and one does not always get what he thinks he is getting for the bucks spent.

[wyntrout]

There's something to be said for looser fitting guns. Take the AK-47 and the early M-16. The M-16 was very "tight" and jammed easily while the AK could handle a handful of dirt in the action and still work. Modern battle weapons are being designed with this in mind... the good ones, anyhow. My scent... er, two cents.
Wynn:D

[Bawanna]

I think Old Lincolns logic is sound but we're talking two very different markets. Les Bauer, Wilson, Ed Brown are to me all specialty gun makers and they make great guns without question. I long for a Wilson but any of them would do. I've held a wilson and didn't even have to shoot it to feel the quality and effort that went into making it.
Kahr on the other hand is catering to as many folks as they possibly can who may not even be true gun fans, they just have enough sense to realize it's a sometimes ugly world out there and they want a gun. They are smart enough to realize they want a good quality small ccw gun.
I think it would be a detriment to advertising to sell one at now prices and then offer a "good one" for 500 or even 200 more. Kind of a these work ok but if you really want a good one buy one that we've finished and it will work better.
I think with just a bit of effort Kahrs run pretty fine usually already. I think kahr could step up the testing or quality control a tad bit more and basically do what Old Lincoln is talking about in house for not a whole lot of money. Good for business, good for reputation and good for us the end users.
Doesn't help me much I still want a Wilson and I will someday but at the cost of a good used pickup truck, it might be a spell before that happens.
Name as I think Jocko mentioned is a big thing too. Wilson, Ed Brown, Les Bauer, people that don't even think guns know those names, it's darn near like John Moses Browning or Bawanna. Everyone knows em. Kahrs not quite there just yet but I see them getting there one day................

Lord I apologize for using Bawanna in the same sentence as my hero John Browning. I'm standing by awaiting my punishment. I'm already hitched, and you already dropped the wall on me, so you'll have to think up something new this time.

[mr surveyor]

If you recall, JMB's original 1911 was designed and built to "sloppy, loose" tolerances, and was battlefield tried and tested to be extremely reliable. The love affair we've had with the 1911 over the last 100 years has ultimately led to a public demand for greater accuracy thus led to the manufacturers building hand guns to much more precise tolerances. It's a trade off actually: you can have "battlefield reliability" of a firearm that can be abused and mistreated that will still allow you to "spray and pray", or you can have a well built, tighter tolerance gun that's been properly "broken in and proven" that will require a bit more love and attention, but may give you the edge on placinig the lead projectile in the desired location.

Both Kahr and Kimber (and a few others) seem to get a lot of bad press from the "commando" types that just don't appreciate the quality of precision, or the need to spend a little quality time tuning their companion for a lifetime or two of service. The "I expect it to be perfect out of the box" crowd actually makes me laugh out loud sometimes. It's the same crowd the complains "If I'm going to spend $600-1000 on a 'high end' gun, it should be perfect out of the box'". Yet, these same "commandos" are content to buy a used $400 Glock and a $200 SKS and declare themselves ready for Red Dawn. Laughable!

As far as the hand lapping issue for Kahr, Kimber and other tight spec handguns, a bit of quality time prior to shooting works wonders. I never expect "perfection" from any firearm until the action has been worked a few hundred times... pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun. It doesn't matter if it's an internal combustion engine, a simple pully or a firearm - any precision machine with metal to metal moving parts requires at least a minimal amount of "break-in" to marry the contact surfaces. Whenever I get a new firearm I always work the action (including the trigger) a couple hundred times before I give it a thorough cleaning (unless a close inspection shows visible signs of machining shavings/residue). I figure that the dust and micro particles from the machining process that are trapped in the factory lube tend to work on a small scale to lapping compound and adds a tiny bit of abrasion to help smooth things out. After a good session or two of redneck hand lapping, then the gun should be disassembled (as far down as you feel competent) and thoroughly cleaned (including the striker channel on the Kahr) and properly lubed for the range. It ain't rocket science. Even the sear need smoothing on a new gun. Dry firing, with or without snap caps (depending on manufacturer's recommendation) will take care of smoothing the trigger action, and it don't cost you 200-500 rounds of break-in ammo to do that. Most complaints about the "break-in" period are due to the cost of ammunition and the frustration of dealing with malfunctions during the early stages. All too often we hear (read) from those that had multiple malfunctions with NIB firearms during the recommended break-in period and screamed the "I don't think I can ever trust it to save my life" chant.

A little applied common sense and sacrifice of a bit of quality time with a well built firearm will result in a lifetime investment.

just a bit more of my rambling drivel:)


surv

[jocko]

surv: and to add to that, some people expect to pay $500 for a gun and get the quality of a kimber or bauer. I have read more than one review from kimber and the other top 1911 custom makers where they had to go back to the factory to "get right"

Tight guns IMO do need some TLC to get right, the military 1911 was loose as a goose and desinged to shoot ball ammo to. and 230 grain to boot also... My K9 is still tight as hell and I don't see why it would change either...

[ripley16]

Funny how perceptions differ... but I've never considered the Kahr line as "tight fitting" and I've wondered what people are refering to when they say that about the Kahr pistols. Certainly the polymer Kahrs don't qualify, just by the nature of the beast. The all steel Kahrs still have a fair amount of wriggle and in fact the slide will move as the trigger is pulled, pushed by the force of the cam. That can't be thought of as tight, can it?

To me, tight mainly refers to the constantly maintained relationship of the barrel to the slide. Because the slide usually hold the sights and the barrel moves, the only guarantee of repeatable accuracy is found the method used to tie the two together as the pistol is aimed. Whether finely machined parts, hand fitted lugs, O-rings, bushings or whatever... this is the only part that matters when trigger is pulled and the bullet flies.

A $3500 Nighthawk is truly a fine pistol, yes, but I wonder how good any pistol would be if that much money is thrown into it's making.

It will be interesting to see how the new Sig P210 will actually turn out. I wonder if it will live up to it's reputation, even at the high dollar cost it will be sold, said to be around $2700.

[jocko]

ripley, u have a point on the tight fitting theng, In my case I refer to the quietness of my kahrs (all 3 of them). they don't rattle, the slide fits good enough that it doesn't rattle around. I have had kel tecs that rattle to beat the band, Military 1911 are rattlers. My G19 is very quiet also. Might not mean jack sh-t as far aso accuracy or reliability ges either, but I like a quiet gun..
Didn't know about this special sig for $2700. It sure in hell better be more than just "tight".

[jeep45238]

I still think a few folks here could do well establishing a relationship with Kahr and providing a service to do the work for those willing to pay for it. work like tear it completely down and hand fit each piece like ensuring clearances and tightness where needed, parts are solid, lap the slide action until smooth and the mag well so it drops mags correctly. Shoot it until broken in and sight it absolutely true. Any parts needing replaced would be done by Kahr without discussion. Heck, the gun could even go in a special presentation box with their actual signature.

Now I see this as a part time job for a retired guy who knows guns and is between Kahr and the customer. But once it caught on, Kahr could sell them as special hand crafted guns for more money selling them direct.

What do you think?

PS: I don't qualify for the job, but I'm sure others at the forum do.


This already exists - Cylinder and Slide.

[kyletx1911]

surv: and to add to that, some people expect to pay $500 for a gun and get the quality of a kimber or bauer. I have read more than one review from kimber and the other top 1911 custom makers where they had to go back to the factory to "get right"

Tight guns IMO do need some TLC to get right, the military 1911 was loose as a goose and desinged to shoot ball ammo to. and 230 grain to boot also... My K9 is still tight as hell and I don't see why it would change either...

both my rocks rattle a little the 5in has 4k in the pipe my 4in 2k in it
my colt 80 1.5 and all shoot poa very well all were used the rocks 425.00
the 4in 375.00 the colt 675.00. i know that are not baers kimbers but that leaves me something to aspire to

[earle8888]

I love to fondle the $2500 Wilson at the Store/Range I shoot at BUT really bring myself to spend that much. That said I have used 'Polodent tooth powder' in paste form in the action of both my Kahr's , after a few hours of this the trigger pull is still very long,(as it should be for its purpose), but constant feel and silky smooth. note, this is after the obligatory 200-400 rounds. Thourgho cleaning is then required. I need to get the guts to pull the trigger out of PM40 and radius sides and bottom. they are to sharp for my fat fingers at rapid fire.
One must consider FFL r equirements with your suggestion!

[OldLincoln]

Good point Earle (finally, someone who spells Earle right!). The break-in process is to get metal on metal to wear down the snags and make a better fit. After taking on the sharp edges and points of wear with a Dremmel, I don't think it needs actual firing 200 rounds as it does getting parts to wear together even without firing so much.

If I were to go into the business of breaking in Kahrs, I would first smooth out wear points & polish the ramp and chamber with the Dremmel, then mount it into a mechanical device to work the action a few hundred times with some mild lapping compound in appropriate places. Once everything worked smoothly, then fire it zeroing in sights, etc. Should be able to do 2 or 3 a day and do it a lot cheaper than C&S.

[jeep45238]

Ya'll are thinking too much about this.


YouTube - Kahr Action Job (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1cDRE0mYdY)

[OldLincoln]

Don't know Jeep. His video is what I was talking about except doesn't break in the recoil spring which is probably the chief complaint (can't slingshot, etc.). He does polish more than I thought of and I'm still not sure how to polish the trigger works on a poly gun. My poly looks like it has a tiny allen or star screw to remove a panel on the top right side, but I took what he said as "don't bother if you have a poly."

Anyway, all this doesn't take long but makes a big difference. I bet customers getting a new Kahr with this work already done would think well of their gun, and I can do it for a lot less than C&S.

[jeep45238]

That's my video ;)

The reason why I mention not to bother polishing the transfer bar on poly guns is simply due to the itty bitty screw that will more than likely get goobered up. All you have to do to polish the sear and firing pin block is put a felt disk on a dremel, a fine jewler's polish, and hit the lobes as you work the trigger to get all the angles that matter for releasing the sear (the part that faces the rear). Polish the portion that works the sear on the rear to the tip, then pull and hold the trigger, and work the firing pin block.

Not being able to sling shot has nothing to do with a spring "not being broken in" (also known as "my spring's getting weak, but is still within the design parameters....right?". It has to do with people expecting itty bitty guns with not much real estate on the grip to keep the frame steady with, and those itty bitty guns also having reduced tolerances for how far the slide moves past the top round in the magazine, and riding the slide ever so slightly, thus reducing the velocity and thus not having the gun feed. Crazy, happens with my Yugo M57 ;)

Or, people can realize that it's foolish to run sling shots for reloads. Yes, I know the whole "gross motor skills" crap. If you can hit the freaking mag release, you can hit the much bigger slide stop to drop the slide.

Or...just do this:
YouTube - Reloading Kahr Pistols (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjLbFOw8sow)

[OldLincoln]

First of all, thank you for your videos. They are down to the point and give excellent instruction. I keep wanting to build a compilation of other peoples work to take someone new to pistols or at least Kahr from proper prep, step by step through proper grip & stance, practice exercises before the range, range shooting (stance, etc., plus if getting ? do that), routine cleaning and further education about CCW, holsters, concealment, point to legal stuff and secondary education.

I could probably do it if I didn't have so much time on my hands. They say if you want something done give it to a busy person.

Anyway, I wanted to break in the spring because that's what everybody tells a newcomer. Just shoot it a few hundred rounds and then you can slingshot etc. I always point them to your video that shows them what they do wrong and how to correct it, but the challenge is changing their already formed opinion that it's the guns fault. Especially when the other forums brag about going directly to the range from the gun store and how wonderful their new ? is. I want them to have that experience with a brand new Kahr. I just wish Justin Moon did also.

[Bawanna]

First of all, thank you for your videos. They are down to the point and give excellent instruction. I keep wanting to build a compilation of other peoples work to take someone new to pistols or at least Kahr from proper prep, step by step through proper grip & stance, practice exercises before the range, range shooting (stance, etc., plus if getting ? do that), routine cleaning and further education about CCW, holsters, concealment, point to legal stuff and secondary education.

I could probably do it if I didn't have so much time on my hands. They say if you want something done give it to a busy person.

Anyway, I wanted to break in the spring because that's what everybody tells a newcomer. Just shoot it a few hundred rounds and then you can slingshot etc. I always point them to your video that shows them what they do wrong and how to correct it, but the challenge is changing their already formed opinion that it's the guns fault. Especially when the other forums brag about going directly to the range from the gun store and how wonderful their new ? is. I want them to have that experience with a brand new Kahr. I just wish Justin Moon did also.

Words to live by Old Lincoln and I'm sure Mr. Moon wishes it too. I think they are working at it, wanting and implementing are a couple different things. As far as slingshoting while some just don't want to play when new and tight I think the majority of this failure is improper slingshoting. My PM45 and K40 both sling shoted right out of the box. I never subscribed to the slide lever release, never considered it, didn't even think about it until I got on this forum a short while ago, still fairly new.
It's awful easy to ride the slide just a bit and with these tight guns, limited working area, thats' all it takes for a failure.
In hindsight it's not that big an issue to load from slide lock either until things wear in either.
I agree it would be really nice if Kahr had an out of the box reputation like Glock. I don't love em and I don't hate em and I have one and I've owned and sold at least a dozen others but it's probably one of the very few that I would take right out of the box, look over and put it in a holster ready to go. Not many others I'd do that with.
I like to think the smart members here are contributing to making Kahrs in general a better gun from the get go. Some one at Kahr just has to be reading this stuff and taking it to the office. At least I hope so.

[OldLincoln]

Jeep is right about my overthinking it, but I made some companies a lot of money by doing just that. I always had a project in addition to my routine job and for a few years that was developing a concept to save money and/or improve a process.

I was an analyst reviewing and publishing performance results for a Division of a fortune 500 company. I had enough horsepower that I could go into operating organizations to review, do ridealongs with field personnel, and meet with management for discussion and feedback. Many times I would form a kernel of an idea that would become a concept.

If the operating organizations agreed, I would get approval up my channel, do all the real estate and equipment stuff, write draft M&P and personnel requirements, recruit and train personnel, refine M&P, develop performance reporting, do presentations to management for stamp of permanency, then hand it off to an operations type to mange. I kept the whole thing within a year's cycle and did it 3 or 4 times later in my career.

That was my real job satisfaction and because of my success I was selected to serve on many high profile commissions, committees, projects, etc. I really did like my career and miss it. Getting old sucks for many reasons and this is one.

Geeez, if there were a penalty for hijacking a thread I'd be a permanent residence in the penalty box. Maybe as a back on thread.... Why couldn't we publish a draft DVD that Kahr could polish and include in the box? Other than the one time cost, it would only add about a buck per gun.

[Bawanna]

Hey it's your thread pal, your the driver. We go where you go or get off the bus. Hi jack all you want.
I do so agree with the getting old sucks but I refuse to follow the whole old tradition and refuse to grow up or act my age.

[dusty10]

Jeep is right about my overthinking it, but I made some companies a lot of money by doing just that. I always had a project in addition to my routine job and for a few years that was developing a concept to save money and/or improve a process.

I was an analyst reviewing and publishing performance results for a Division of a fortune 500 company. I had enough horsepower that I could go into operating organizations to review, do ridealongs with field personnel, and meet with management for discussion and feedback. Many times I would form a kernel of an idea that would become a concept.

If the operating organizations agreed, I would get approval up my channel, do all the real estate and equipment stuff, write draft M&P and personnel requirements, recruit and train personnel, refine M&P, develop performance reporting, do presentations to management for stamp of permanency, then hand it off to an operations type to mange. I kept the whole thing within a year's cycle and did it 3 or 4 times later in my career.

That was my real job satisfaction and because of my success I was selected to serve on many high profile commissions, committees, projects, etc. I really did like my career and miss it. Getting old sucks for many reasons and this is one.

Geeez, if there were a penalty for hijacking a thread I'd be a permanent residence in the penalty box. Maybe as a back on thread.... Why couldn't we publish a draft DVD that Kahr could polish and include in the box? Other than the one time cost, it would only add about a buck per gun.

Why not do that and have as a sticky on this forum?

[OldLincoln]

Excellent thought Dusty.

[Blue150]

I think it would be a detriment to advertising to sell one at now prices and then offer a "good one" for 500 or even 200 more. Kind of a these work ok but if you really want a good one buy one that we've finished and it will work better.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't Kahr already do that with the PM9 and CM9? Same gun except the PM9 gets more aesthetic machining on the slide, a dovetailed front sight, more time spent polishing on critical points of the action and a top quality polygonal rifled barrel. I also recall reading that the PM9's barrel is made by Walter but I don't know what my source's source was.

Personally, when I pick up my new CM9 next week I'm going to strip it completely, polish all contact points and clean it real good before I lube it and start the live fire break in. It might not be quite as tight but it should be smooth. This isn't my first dance and any Kahr should be simpler than a 1911.

[Barth]

There's a fine line between tight/accurate and reliable.
Combat/self-defense accurate is quite a bit different than competition bulls-eye punching.
And having a combat/SD gun that can function dirty and dry,
with limited cleaning, is going to be very different than a finely tuned, well lubed, race gun.

Being an avid gun owner and shooter.
I naturally want my guns to be as accurate as possible.
I want to shoot extremely well.
So when I'm at my worst, with hands shaking and tunnel vision,
I may still hit my mark.

But 100% reliability is paramount above all other things.

For me personally I've found that quality handguns with excellent sights and glassy triggers are my best bet.

As far as so called near match barrels - Storm Lake has been 100% reliable.
And at least in my Glock groups better than OEM.

Also, although I can't prove it, it seems that some calibers are intrinsically more accurate than others.
I think this may contribute to there respective popularity and longevity.

Specifically 45/9mm/357 sig and 44 mag/357 mag.

[JFootin]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't Kahr already do that with the PM9 and CM9? Same gun except the PM9 gets more aesthetic machining on the slide, a dovetailed front sight, more time spent polishing on critical points of the action and a top quality polygonal rifled barrel. I also recall reading that the PM9's barrel is made by Walter but I don't know what my source's source was.

Personally, when I pick up my new CM9 next week I'm going to strip it completely, polish all contact points and clean it real good before I lube it and start the live fire break in. It might not be quite as tight but it should be smooth. This isn't my first dance and any Kahr should be simpler than a 1911.

Everything on my CM9 was mirror polished by the original owner, so it has always functioned smoothly and reliably. But there is no looseness to this gun at all. It is TIGHT. No play in slide to frame fit. No rattles.

And your statement, "more time spent polishing on critical points of the action" is not so. Check with Kahr and they will tell you. No difference in the internals whatsoever, except for the barrel rifling. And the feed ramp on the CM9 barrel is polished just as highly as the PM9. The barrel, barrel hood and the inside of the slide are machined and finished identically to the PM9. The trigger mechanism, striker and extractor are exactly the same. They did nothing actionwise to 'cheapen' the CM9.

[Sap]

I've handled some pretty high end 1911's. Wilson, nighthawk, Ed brown, etc…

Me personally, I'll take a loose glock, kahr, sig any day of the week over one of those fine tuned customs. A loose fitting glock is still way more accurate than I'll ever be. I want a gun that can handle the dirt, grime, dust or whatever **** the real world has to offer.

[Blue150]

Everything on my CM9 was mirror polished by the original owner, so it has always functioned smoothly and reliably. But there is no looseness to this gun at all. It is TIGHT. No play in slide to frame fit. No rattles.

And your statement, "more time spent polishing on critical points of the action" is not so. Check with Kahr and they will tell you. No difference in the internals whatsoever, except for the barrel rifling. And the feed ramp on the CM9 barrel is polished just as highly as the PM9. The barrel, barrel hood and the inside of the slide are machined and finished identically to the PM9. The trigger mechanism, striker and extractor are exactly the same. They did nothing actionwise to 'cheapen' the CM9.

It would be interesting to break down a PM9 at the same time I do the CM9 for a side by side comparison. I know that on the two occasions I've had to play with one of each side by side, both NIB, the PM9 had a noticeably smoother trigger. On the other hand, I put a CM9 on layaway because the slide action is very smooth, much smoother than the other five Kahrs in the case. There are always minor variations between guns and I didn't want that smooth one to be sold out from under me while I get Momma used to the idea of another gun. She'd be in the Brady Bunch if she had any inclinations toward activism.