Cann't give the CM9 away if I wanted to!

[Mike_usn_ret]

Went slumming around the LGS's yesterday. North central FL. Can not get the Glock 43x off my mind. Only Glock I have ever held that I liked...and sad thing is , I really like it. Had my CM9 (In very good shape) on me and just asked just for the sake of asking how much for a trade....get this. 5 shops...one offer $100...one $125...and 3 offers of ..."Can not take a Kahr on trade, no call for them in the local market. New shooters do not like them and experienced ones say they are over rated and a PITA.
I though Kahr popularity had increased! Was really shocked to get 3 that did not even want to talk trade in at all.
Really do not want to trade my CM9 in, but do not have any other firearm I would get rid of except my Springfield XDe...and what I want is much more than I will get on a 43x with a Blue label price of $380.

[yqtszhj]

The PM9 (then the CM9) owned the market on lightest, best shooting 9mm back in 2010 when I bought my CW9 then my CM9 when it was released. Sad for Kahr there are now so many small light 9mm pistols that are perceived to be in the same class and these other companies advertise better that no one puts a Kahr 1st on their list. Not to mention a few of years ago Kahr had couple of quality issues that have since been resolved but what is on the internet is forever.

I have a CW45, PM45, CM9, and CW380 that I bet I’d have a hard time selling too if I was so inclined.

[Bawanna]

Actually I'm not surprised, most gunshops are pretty ignorant regarding Kahrs as are a lot of shooters that have no experience with them.

Don't see Kahrs in our local shops. I have been seeing a few more at our gun shows. With our new California North gun law the gun shows are struggling. Waiting period even with a CPL makes it tough.

[187911]

Went slumming around the LGS's yesterday. North central FL. Can not get the Glock 43x off my mind. Only Glock I have ever held that I liked...and sad thing is , I really like it. Had my CM9 (In very good shape) on me and just asked just for the sake of asking how much for a trade....get this. 5 shops...one offer $100...one $125...and 3 offers of ..."Can not take a Kahr on trade, no call for them in the local market. New shooters do not like them and experienced ones say they are over rated and a PITA.
I though Kahr popularity had increased! Was really shocked to get 3 that did not even want to talk trade in at all.
Really do not want to trade my CM9 in, but do not have any other firearm I would get rid of except my Springfield XDe...and what I want is much more than I will get on a 43x with a Blue label price of $380.
CM9 can be had for around $300 or less NIB. Being used, that brings the price down even more. Then they have to make a profit. $100 sounds like a pretty good offer coming from a LGS... I've been offered $150 or so for a $400+ gun that I just purchased from them a few months prior. I've been in my LGS, and seen people practically give their CZs, XDs, Berettas, etc away they were selling their guns to the gun shop so cheap... I usually am tempted to pull them to the side and offer them $20-$20 more than the LGS is offering, but I guess that would be frowned upon...

On the flip side, I have sold used $200 Taurus and Kel Tecs on ArmsList in a f2f sale for $300. Just recently sold a Shield that I had for 3 years for $350 which is about what I paid for it. Just like with anything, cut out the middle man if you want your money's worth.

[berettabone]

It's the main reason that I usually make private trades instead. I refuse to take the beating that a dealer hands out when taking in a trade. The markup to a dealer is pretty significant, especially on certain makes and models. As an example, a dealer in my up nort area gets S&W M&P's and Shields for around $225-250 range. He sells them for between $500 and $550. He can/could afford to let a CM9 sit around his shop if he only had $100 invested. It will sell EVENTUALLY. I tried selling a limited MK9 with no takers, and on trade I didn't even inquire. So, I traded it and got a different firearm. It's the advantage of trades. You get to try out/own many different kinds of handguns for little to no cost. If both parties are happy, it's a win. If you look at a firearm as a tool, if you pay $350 for your handgun new, and own it for say 7 years, do you think you got your monies worth?????? It cost you $50 a year to use, minus ammo and cleaners of course. Sometimes, trades take time, but if you're patient, they come around.

[340pd]

The last PM9 I saw sell went for $275. As said previously, there is too much competition from competitors with far more recognizable names.

[DavidR]

No way I’d trade my CM9 for $125.

That being said I plan to trade my Shield 1.0 in when my son buys his P365. Not expecting more than $150 for it.

[yqtszhj]

No way I’d trade my CM9 for $125.

That being said I plan to trade my Shield 1.0 in when my son buys his P365. Not expecting more than $150 for it.

Sold mine on armslist for $275 which is about what I iPad for it 2-3 years ago. Took about a month but it sold.

Now, not that I want this but let the wrong party win the next election and our firearms will sell for a pretty penny.

[berettabone]

I couldn't give my MK9 away, but sold my M&P .40 for $400 on Armslist………………………….

[King Rat]

The internet can make JQ Public believe in anything. Go to any LG and listen to the Newbies asking for the lightest trigger with the shortest reset. And they are quick to say "Just Horrible Trigger" when any DAO is mentioned. Most would not know a Kahr CM if one hit them in the face. Nor to they even realize that the Kahr is one of the best concealabke, well built guns on the market. Not to mention light weight and easy shooting. I Spent a lot of time shooting the Sig 365, sorry, no way would I trade my CM9 for one. Hell, the gun did not even fit my hand. Gun shops will carry what the Internet tells them to. Take a Kahr CW380. The internet will have you believe the LCP is a King of some kind. Then break down the Kahr and the LCP and look at the difference in Quality. There is no comparison. And the CW380 is a one mild shooter. Not to mention that the Kahr will run the legs off a LCP with any substantial ammo down range.
I remember when the 365 was selling like Hot Cakes. People putting their name on a list to get one. Yet none had even shot the gun or even handled one. And then the problems came out. And then folks finding out the gun was NOT a good fit for their hand. I am even seeing some being sold used.
And Not the same with the Springfield. All the talk all the rage and hysteria. We will see how that works out as well.
Fads come and go. There is a reason the Kahr CM 9 is still a top gun for sure.

https://i.imgur.com/kQFuSIQ.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/W6RjlgX.jpg?1

[spikedog]

I got my wife a 43X because of the lighter trigger and easier to rack slide. She was having trouble with her CM9. I got to compare my pm9 and p9 to the glock. No comparison. Kahr is much better.

Sent from my SM-T820 using Tapatalk

[Mike_usn_ret]

Well some days are better than others for a trade in. After some in depth negotiating got $175 for the CM9 (on sale at Buds for $297 new almost 2 years ago) and $80 on the LNIB RR (which was $99 new) on the Glock 43x. After shooting one a few months back I just could not get over wanting one. Only Glock that feels good in my hand. Would not have traded the CM9 except I have one in my sights from a friend that does not like his and I do not want to trade any of my other guns away.

[DavidR]

Congratulations Mike.

KR - re the P365, in the year and a half since they’ve been introduced Sig has sold more than 600,000 of them. Whether you like it or not, it’s an excellent firearm with good ergonomics, a nice trigger and great capacity. It has replaced my CM9 as my 9mm carry but the CM9 is not going anywhere.

[Bawanna]

600,000 in a year and half????? I did not know that. That's a lot of new guns in a very short time. You go SIG.

[King Rat]

600,000 in a year and half????? I did not know that. That's a lot of new guns in a very short time. You go SIG.

Lol,ya got to love the internet.The old Snowball effect. Like Parrots ,that one thing said is repeated by 50,000 others. The fad of the week. Sounds great, too good too be true. Marketing will sell more "Great Guns" to the public with a ticket to see the the greatest show on earth. . It is always the New and Improved, get it while it is hot. "SELL THE SIZZLE NOT THE STEAK"! And it just seems to be getting worse. The Market is saturated now, and sales must continue. So what to do, add a gimmick.

[DavidR]

600,000 in a year and half????? I did not know that. That's a lot of new guns in a very short time. You go SIG.

Yeah, incredible. I expect that a lot of these were sold to Sig fans but this has to hurt Kahr. Hellcat is up next. Kahr will be in trouble if they don’t innovate.

[Mike_usn_ret]

I have nothing against Sig, I just liked the 43x a little better. The Blue Label Program price of $380 clearly helped make up my mind too.

[DavidR]

I have nothing against Sig, I just liked the 43x a little better. The Blue Label Program price of $380 clearly helped make up my mind too.

The 43x looks really nice. Would love to shoot one. I like the two tone too.

[Mike_usn_ret]

Shot the new Glock 43x for the first time this morning. My new one much more snappy the use one my friend let me shoot....and more than the CM9 also. Trigger not as bad as many say, but another thing CM9 has better. After about 30 rds I did not concentrate much, knew I was going to polish the internals and install a ghost connector to make trigger smoother and take out the Glock "bump". All in all, I like it a lot.

[King Rat]

I have tried hard to like the Glock. Problem is they just do not like me. When the 43x came out, I thought, ok, it has been a while since I have shot one so give this new one a try. I was really not impressed . I had actually thought I was going to find a great shooter. But the recoil and shooting characteristics were not very good. More recoil and muzzle flip than I anticipated. And the worse part was the Blister that I woke up to the next day from shooting 250 rds through the gun. The Trigger guard on them is too narrow at the bottom. They just do not fit my hand. I took a pic of the blister, but will spare you from having to view it.
It is really hard to beat the Kahr. They impress me more each time I shoot one.

[340pd]

All interesting comments. Between the small Glocks and the high capacity P365, Kahr has some tough competition to face. I have noticed the resale prices of Kahr's falling off the charts at my LGS and on Gunbroker. My PM9 is still the best for pocket carry but between my LCP and P365 my PM9 which I bought through Kahr's RSO program, cost me something over $500 with night sights and extra mag, may now bring me something under $300 resale which is a price I will never sell that sweet little gun.
I believe the next big thing in the tiny gun market will be directed at those that have difficulty racking the slides of these tiny powerhouses so I watch for some fixed barrel 9mm with a 10rd. magazine that is great for us old folk and easily concealable in our Depends.

[187911]

All interesting comments. Between the small Glocks and the high capacity P365, Kahr has some tough competition to face. I have noticed the resale prices of Kahr's falling off the charts at my LGS and on Gunbroker. My PM9 is still the best for pocket carry but between my LCP and P365 my PM9 which I bought through Kahr's RSO program, cost me something over $500 with night sights and extra mag, may now bring me something under $300 resale which is a price I will never sell that sweet little gun.
I believe the next big thing in the tiny gun market will be directed at those that have difficulty racking the slides of these tiny powerhouses so I watch for some fixed barrel 9mm with a 10rd. magazine that is great for us old folk and easily concealable in our Depends.
The problem is that Kahrs is still basically selling the same guns they were selling years ago when thecK9, MK9, PM, and CM9's where more popular and sort after... Since then, Glock, Ruger, Taurus, S&W, Walther, Sig, Springfield, so on and so forth have released completely new guns or made noticable upgrades for new generations. Kahrs is still stuck in the past.

I purchased all my Kahrs used for dirt cheap prices, and will never buy one new. The only one I purchased new was a NIB K40 on sale at Buds for approx $300.

[Bawanna]

Sometimes manufacturers get it right first time out and only need to make minor improvement.
Don't mess with success comes to mind. Granted the 380 has been a thorn in Kahrs side since day one but even it has improved over the years.

John Moses Browning did it with the 1911 and is a good example.

[187911]

Sometimes manufacturers get it right first time out and only need to make minor improvement.
Don't mess with success comes to mind. Granted the 380 has been a thorn in Kahrs side since day one but even it has improved over the years.

John Moses Browning did it with the 1911 and is a good example.
Success when it comes to business is increasing sales and market shares. Other companies also have had successful and reliable products; however, they are constantly coming out with new products, updates, as well as keeping up with market trent's. That's why, IMHO, they are doing better than Kahr when it comes to sales, aftermarket support, and resale.

[MMyers1970]

Kahr CONSISTENTLY drops the ball. The company was groundbreaking when the introduced the P9. Sure, the K9 had been on the market for a while, and had done OK, but the P9 was truly the first singlestack polymer 9mm on the market.

The PM9 was the smallest and lightest 9mm on the market for a minute, then everybody brought one out.

Now the standard for CCW is really the SIG P365. Where is Kahr? Glock has a 10 round CCW singlestack. Springfield just brought out the Hellcat, which beats the P365 in capacity in the same size pistol.

Where's Kahr?

WHERE IS KAHR? What have they given us lately? The PM9 Covert, which sacrifices concealment for one additional round. They can't even get that right----the hot ticket isn't long grip/short slide, It's long slide/short grip. More sight radius, less recoil. For a while their "innovations" were bad Cerakote jobs and Pachmayr grips. Oh, and tacky laser engraving. They're spending a lot of money putting out gaudy 1911s and gold tiger striped Desert Eagles, for some reason.

I am a fan, and own more Kahrs than other pistols(and more Kahrs than more Kahr owners). I carry one or two every day. I shoot them well, and choose to shoot a Kahr at every range visit. But it's been a LONG time since they've done anything innovative. I also don't blame the general public for not giving them a second look. Bringing out the Value Series surely gave them an infusion of cash, but likely damaged the brand irrevocably.

[berettabone]

They are built with some quality in mind. However, when they are inconsistent in operation, difficult to break down and rack, and in many cases can't be totally trusted, there is a continual problem which is hard to ignore, especially for the price point. An extra bullet isn't an issue, it's the operation for the average Joe that's a problem. You can purchase 2 of a competitors firearms for the cost of 1 Kahr, and have the consistency of operation be at least the same if not better. I would have loved to keep my MK9, but the operation, along with total trust was an issue. You have to be firearm friendly to the customers who aren't home gunsmiths, of which there are many.

[187911]

They are built with some quality in mind. However, when they are inconsistent in operation, difficult to break down and rack, and in many cases can't be totally trusted, there is a continual problem which is hard to ignore, especially for the price point. An extra bullet isn't an issue, it's the operation for the average Joe that's a problem. You can purchase 2 of a competitors firearms for the cost of 1 Kahr, and have the consistency of operation be at least the same if not better. I would have loved to keep my MK9, but the operation, along with total trust was an issue. You have to be firearm friendly to the customers who aren't home gunsmiths, of which there are many.
What's wrong with the operation of Kahrs pistols? I don't find them difficult to rack at all, nor have I understood that to ever be a common complaint. S&W Shield, now that's a hard gun to rack, but it's also the most popular single stack on the market. With the exception of their 380 models and I believe 7 rounders in the CM9, I have not heard of a bunch of reliability issues either especially with their T,K,and MK line. I agree that they should have long since manufactured a way, in a new generation, to make the break easier.

[MMyers1970]

I own Kahrs from all their product lines, and I've only had trouble with two of them.

One was a CW45 I bought used that had been incorrectly reassembled by a previous owner. Once I fixed it, function was fine. But it sucked to shoot and hurt my hands, so it went bye-bye.

My CW380 is, and always has been, a problem. It is not reliable. I think it's going to be retired from carry duty and replaced with a trustworthy .380---probably a PPK.

[berettabone]

What's wrong with the operation of Kahrs pistols? I don't find them difficult to rack at all, nor have I understood that to ever be a common complaint. S&W Shield, now that's a hard gun to rack, but it's also the most popular single stack on the market. With the exception of their 380 models and I believe 7 rounders in the CM9, I have not heard of a bunch of reliability issues either especially with their T,K,and MK line. I agree that they should have long since manufactured a way, in a new generation, to make the break easier. Maybe you don't have a problem with the spring tension but many people do, which keeps them from purchasing a Kahr product. My previously owned MK9 was a bear to rack, and even after just under a 1000 rds. through it, it never changed, which is good and bad. I've seen people looking at Kahr products in a store setting and almost everyone I've seen makes a comment about the slide and moves on to something else or a revolver. The smaller Sigs are very easy to rack, the EZ S&W is easy to rack. The LCP my wife just purchased is easier to rack. It's what holds Kahr back from more sales for sure. They are a nice gun, a pretty gun, but not an easy gun, and this generation in particular wants easy...…………….:)

[MMyers1970]

Maybe you don't have a problem with the spring tension but many people do, which keeps them from purchasing a Kahr product. My previously owned MK9 was a bear to rack, and even after just under a 1000 rds. through it, it never changed, which is good and bad. I've seen people looking at Kahr products in a store setting and almost everyone I've seen makes a comment about the slide and moves on to something else or a revolver. The smaller Sigs are very easy to rack, the EZ S&W is easy to rack. The LCP my wife just purchased is easier to rack. It's what holds Kahr back from more sales for sure. They are a nice gun, a pretty gun, but not an easy gun, and this generation in particular wants easy...…………….:)

I charge my CM9/MK9/CW380 by retracting to slide lock and depressing the slide release. I can slingshot my larger Kahrs---and the T9 is easy.

[187911]

Maybe you don't have a problem with the spring tension but many people do, which keeps them from purchasing a Kahr product. My previously owned MK9 was a bear to rack, and even after just under a 1000 rds. through it, it never changed, which is good and bad. I've seen people looking at Kahr products in a store setting and almost everyone I've seen makes a comment about the slide and moves on to something else or a revolver. The smaller Sigs are very easy to rack, the EZ S&W is easy to rack. The LCP my wife just purchased is easier to rack. It's what holds Kahr back from more sales for sure. They are a nice gun, a pretty gun, but not an easy gun, and this generation in particular wants easy...…………….:)

I own a few striker handguns from the same and different manufacturers. The Kahr line of pistols are not really harder to rack than others most others IMHO. Many of the pistols that you mentioned are hammer fired, a lower caliber, and/or purposely designed for women, seniors, and/or those who might have weaker than normal hand strength as is the case with the S&W EZ. I will agree that there are some who have problem with the spring tension on semiautos, but again, Kahr pistols are in the norm rather than being an exception when it come to slide tension..

[Bawanna]

I think a lot of it is they are just small and not a lot to grab onto. Put that same pull weight in a full size gun and it probably wouldn't be an issue.

Truth is they are kind of stiff and for many they just don't work. So that's why there are so many options out there and of course revolvers which is actually a better choice for many, especially those that never shoot or stay familiar with their guns.

[King Rat]

Kahr CONSISTENTLY drops the ball. The company was groundbreaking when the introduced the P9. Sure, the K9 had been on the market for a while, and had done OK, but the P9 was truly the first singlestack polymer 9mm on the market.

The PM9 was the smallest and lightest 9mm on the market for a minute, then everybody brought one out.

Now the standard for CCW is really the SIG P365. Where is Kahr? Glock has a 10 round CCW singlestack. Springfield just brought out the Hellcat, which beats the P365 in capacity in the same size pistol.

Where's Kahr?

WHERE IS KAHR? What have they given us lately? The PM9 Covert, which sacrifices concealment for one additional round. They can't even get that right----the hot ticket isn't long grip/short slide, It's long slide/short grip. More sight radius, less recoil. For a while their "innovations" were bad Cerakote jobs and Pachmayr grips. Oh, and tacky laser engraving. They're spending a lot of money putting out gaudy 1911s and gold tiger striped Desert Eagles, for some reason.

I am a fan, and own more Kahrs than other pistols(and more Kahrs than more Kahr owners). I carry one or two every day. I shoot them well, and choose to shoot a Kahr at every range visit. But it's been a LONG time since they've done anything innovative. I also don't blame the general public for not giving them a second look. Bringing out the Value Series surely gave them an infusion of cash, but likely damaged the brand irrevocably.

The Standard is the 365? Hardly the standard, they have not even been out that long. And not everyone is so crazy about a few more rounds. Maybe if the Sig 365 was built like the Kahr and I could at least grip it without riding the slide, I would buy one. There are a whole lot of really nice Micro 9mms out there. And guess what, Sig is NOT trusted by every one. They are still having a whole lot of problems. One poster on another forum has bought three all lemons. Another call to Sig and they now say that they have a new recoil spring that just came out that should fix some of his problems. He has thrown in the towel. Sorry, I will take the Kahr all day long over the Sig and my CW380 and CM9 run fantastic.
Sig tries and make every one believe they have the highest capacity, yet the Keltec PF11 was out for over 15 years with the same amount of Rounds and guess what? Lighter in weight. And Ironically and a coincidence stop production right when Sig 365 was released. I wonder what kind of deal went on there. There are options and give and take on all guns made. Sorry if the Sig is the Standard, then I will just go NON standard. The CM9 is a lovely firearm, fits well in the hand, mild recoil and now with magguts can support 8 rounds which is fine with me. Every one like to jump on something new. Well something new does not always pan out.
Kahr has not been producing the CM9 and CW for years because they are unsuccessful?? On the contrary, they are a solid well build, and light weight package. Some months ago, I was with a group of 5 that tested the gun with 1,000 rds. There was nothing special about the gun. One member, a female love it, bought it, but now has had so many problems she says see will not carry it.
Sig is not the standard from anything I can see. A whole lot of hype but even that is dying fast. Yes, I am open minded and will try out the Hellcat, and see where that goes. Give it a year and we will see.

[MMyers1970]

The Standard is the 365? Hardly the standard, they have not even been out that long. And not everyone is so crazy about a few more rounds. Maybe if the Sig 365 was built like the Kahr and I could at least grip it without riding the slide, I would buy one. There are a whole lot of really nice Micro 9mms out there. And guess what, Sig is NOT trusted by every one. They are still having a whole lot of problems. One poster on another forum has bought three all lemons. Another call to Sig and they now say that they have a new recoil spring that just came out that should fix some of his problems. He has thrown in the towel. Sorry, I will take the Kahr all day long over the Sig and my CW380 and CM9 run fantastic.
Sig tries and make every one believe they have the highest capacity, yet the Keltec PF11 was out for over 15 years with the same amount of Rounds and guess what? Lighter in weight. And Ironically and a coincidence stop production right when Sig 365 was released. I wonder what kind of deal went on there. There are options and give and take on all guns made. Sorry if the Sig is the Standard, then I will just go NON standard. The CM9 is a lovely firearm, fits well in the hand, mild recoil and now with magguts can support 8 rounds which is fine with me. Every one like to jump on something new. Well something new does not always pan out.
Kahr has not been producing the CM9 and CW for years because they are unsuccessful?? On the contrary, they are a solid well build, and light weight package. Some months ago, I was with a group of 5 that tested the gun with 1,000 rds. There was nothing special about the gun. One member, a female love it, bought it, but now has had so many problems she says see will not carry it.
Sig is not the standard from anything I can see. A whole lot of hype but even that is dying fast. Yes, I am open minded and will try out the Hellcat, and see where that goes. Give it a year and we will see.

The P365 is the standard, because if you can carry 11 rounds in the same size envelope as 7, it's a no-brainer. If you're a new gun buyer looking for your first carry pistol, why would you choose FEWER rounds? You wouldn't. Nobody would. I've shot a P365. I own a G43 and Kahrs in all sizes and trim levels. If I had none of my pistols, I'd buy the P365.

So now, because they know they screwed up, Kahr is offering a 10 round magazine for the K/P/CW9 pistols. How did they do it? A +4 EXTENSION. So instead of a new 11 round handgun, they give us a magazine that's going to stick out of the magwell an inch. Seriously.

Kahr is an also-ran in the concealment pistol market. It's a shame, because they make an outstanding product. I think my T9 is as well-made as some "factory custom" 1911s. My old P9 is shockingly accurate---like five rounds in a quarter sized group at 10 yards accurate. The CW380, for a long time, was the smallest "fighting pistol" on the market.

But everybody's offering a comparable or superior product to most of Kahr's offerings(except the steel pistols---nobody's offering small steel DAO autos except them) with much better name recognition, for less money.

I don't think we are ever seeing a major new product from Kahr. When Democrats take the national majority in 2024, we are going to see nationwide mag capacity bans---10 rounds is a number the hoplophobes like----and then buying anything but the smallest pistol with the highest capacity will be silly. And Kahr won't have anything.

[187911]

The Standard is the 365? Hardly the standard, they have not even been out that long. And not everyone is so crazy about a few more rounds. Maybe if the Sig 365 was built like the Kahr and I could at least grip it without riding the slide, I would buy one. There are a whole lot of really nice Micro 9mms out there. And guess what, Sig is NOT trusted by every one. They are still having a whole lot of problems. One poster on another forum has bought three all lemons. Another call to Sig and they now say that they have a new recoil spring that just came out that should fix some of his problems. He has thrown in the towel. Sorry, I will take the Kahr all day long over the Sig and my CW380 and CM9 run fantastic.
Sig tries and make every one believe they have the highest capacity, yet the Keltec PF11 was out for over 15 years with the same amount of Rounds and guess what? Lighter in weight. And Ironically and a coincidence stop production right when Sig 365 was released. I wonder what kind of deal went on there. There are options and give and take on all guns made. Sorry if the Sig is the Standard, then I will just go NON standard. The CM9 is a lovely firearm, fits well in the hand, mild recoil and now with magguts can support 8 rounds which is fine with me. Every one like to jump on something new. Well something new does not always pan out.
Kahr has not been producing the CM9 and CW for years because they are unsuccessful?? On the contrary, they are a solid well build, and light weight package. Some months ago, I was with a group of 5 that tested the gun with 1,000 rds. There was nothing special about the gun. One member, a female love it, bought it, but now has had so many problems she says see will not carry it.
Sig is not the standard from anything I can see. A whole lot of hype but even that is dying fast. Yes, I am open minded and will try out the Hellcat, and see where that goes. Give it a year and we will see.
I agree that the P365 is NOT the standard. Many people aren't interested in them for various reasons including reliability and price point. The M&P Shield, Ruger EC9, Taurus G2S, Walther PPS M2, Glock 43, Springfield XDS Mod 2 and XDE, Beretta Nano/APX Carry etc are still selling very well. With that said, all of the aforementioned came to market AFTER the Kahr CM9/PM9s/CW9s, etc, and even they, e.i., the PPS M2, XDS MD 2, Shield Gen 2, Taurus G2S, Ruger EC9, APX Carry formally the Beretta Nano, etc have had updates since their birth. The others that I didn't mention are relatively new to market. Kahr has lost market shares and has fallen off the radar and out of favor in like of other offerings in a highly competitive market. While other companies were moving forward, Kahr has been standing still.

[berettabone]

I own a few striker handguns from the same and different manufacturers. The Kahr line of pistols are not really harder to rack than others most others IMHO. Many of the pistols that you mentioned are hammer fired, a lower caliber, and/or purposely designed for women, seniors, and/or those who might have weaker than normal hand strength as is the case with the S&W EZ. I will agree that there are some who have problem with the spring tension on semiautos, but again, Kahr pistols are in the norm rather than being an exception when it come to slide tension.. I'll have to respectfully disagree. I've owned many, many firearms in my 65 years on the planet. Every manufacturer. Striker fired and hammer fired. Semi's and revolvers. I've never and I repeat never had firearms that are more difficult to operate than Kahrs. Plain and simple. Your one of the exceptions to the rule. They complain on this forum, they complain on other forums and they complain in real life about the difficulties operating Kahr firearms. I've seen it, heard it, and experienced it. Disagree if you will, but it IS THE MAIN REASON that Kahr doesn't sell as many firearms as other manufacturers plain and simple. I finally had to sell my MK because I just couldn't deal with the tough operation and break down. You shouldn't have to wrestle your firearms. It will continue to be a thorn in Kahr's side. People want firearms that they can operate under duress without having to use all of their power to rack the slide or take it down for cleaning. My ex Kahr never used to be a problem when I was younger but it became one. Many firearm's customers are young and women these days. They will be the ones to determine how Kahr does in the future. If they don't/can't make things easier for the new buyer, they will constantly fight the stigma and whispers in the firearm world about the difficulties with their smaller firearms. It's just fact, whether you like the brand or not.

[berettabone]

The P365 is the standard, because if you can carry 11 rounds in the same size envelope as 7, it's a no-brainer. If you're a new gun buyer looking for your first carry pistol, why would you choose FEWER rounds? You wouldn't. Nobody would. I've shot a P365. I own a G43 and Kahrs in all sizes and trim levels. If I had none of my pistols, I'd buy the P365.

So now, because they know they screwed up, Kahr is offering a 10 round magazine for the K/P/CW9 pistols. How did they do it? A +4 EXTENSION. So instead of a new 11 round handgun, they give us a magazine that's going to stick out of the magwell an inch. Seriously.

Kahr is an also-ran in the concealment pistol market. It's a shame, because they make an outstanding product. I think my T9 is as well-made as some "factory custom" 1911s. My old P9 is shockingly accurate---like five rounds in a quarter sized group at 10 yards accurate. The CW380, for a long time, was the smallest "fighting pistol" on the market.

But everybody's offering a comparable or superior product to most of Kahr's offerings(except the steel pistols---nobody's offering small steel DAO autos except them) with much better name recognition, for less money.

I don't think we are ever seeing a major new product from Kahr. When Democrats take the national majority in 2024, we are going to see nationwide mag capacity bans---10 rounds is a number the hoplophobes like----and then buying anything but the smallest pistol with the highest capacity will be silly. And Kahr won't have anything. Unless your like me, who doesn't need large amounts of rounds in a firearm. If your looking for your first firearm, round count is probably the last thing you should be thinking about. Most times, all you need is one. I suggest to people not to obsess on round counts. They are not going to Syria to fight ISIS. People who obsess on round counts either have no confidence in their shooting abilities, or think that they are going to get in a firefight on the streets of U.S.A. It's probably a ***** explaining to a judge why you had to carry a firearm with 17 rounds and why you had to shoot someone 12 times when they were done after the first. Something to sleep on...…………….I'll keep my 5 rounds of .357 over 17 rounds of 9mm and I'll probably still have 4 left:)

[Bawanna]

Perhaps that is why they are doing so well with Auto Ordnance, Magnum Research, Thompson and the other under the Kahr Umbrella. I'm sure they are all separate operations so can't really say they are focusing on one more than the other.

[DavidR]

Sig is innovative - modular firearms and a high capacity sub compact smaller than the 43, Shield or XDS (in all meaningful respects it’s the same size as the CM9). Sig has sold at 600,000 P365s since it was introduced so they obviously assessed the market correctly.

I have no idea how many 9mms Kahr has sold in that time.

Mossberg and Beretta have released new subcompacts that look really nice and are probably well made but are larger than the 365 and have less capacity. I don’t hear much chatter about those. Not very innovative.

Glock gave us more capacity in a single stack by making the pistol bigger which you could do with Kahr by moving from a CM9 to a CW9. Not very innovative.

Springfield has just introduced a super small high capacity sub compact that also looks nice and is probably well made. Direct competition for the 365.

Kahr has done what? Please don’t say the 10 round mag as that is an abomination. I love my CT380 and CM9 but I can’t imagine they sell very many. My LGS big box carries them but interestingly they are displayed at the same counter you go to check in for the range (i.e. there are always people standing there and they’re not looking at the Kahrs). Nobody who browses would even see them. No innovation.

While they have a loyal following, me included, I fear Kahr is being left behind.

[berettabone]

That new 911 Springfield 911 9mm is a very nice looking firearm. The magazines look very nice also, with metal followers. Could be a hit for the 1911 lovers who are used to the platform, and want something a bit smaller to take to the store...………………………………………………...

[yqtszhj]

That new 911 Springfield 911 9mm is a very nice looking firearm. The magazines look very nice also, with metal followers. Could be a hit for the 1911 lovers who are used to the platform, and want something a bit smaller to take to the store...………………………………………………...

After 5+ years of pondering getting a Sig P938 (like the Springfield 911 and uses the same mags) I finally bought one. 200 rounds so far and I like it. And it is smaller than the CM9 by just a smidge and weighs the same according to my scales. Very nice.

[King Rat]

The P365 is the standard, because if you can carry 11 rounds in the same size envelope as 7, it's a no-brainer. If you're a new gun buyer looking for your first carry pistol, why would you choose FEWER rounds? You wouldn't. Nobody would. I've shot a P365. I own a G43 and Kahrs in all sizes and trim levels. If I had none of my pistols, I'd buy the P365.
.

Sir you need to speak for yourself. For some reason the Internet folks are trying hard to jam us all into the crowd that higher round count is a no brainer. Sorry, could give a flying Fig about high round count in a small carry pistol What has Kahr giving us? Have no idea what it gave you. They gave me to well made, beautiful Carry guns that shoot terrific. Sorry, In my life of EDC, weight does matter, ounces matter. I have one of the smoothest shooting, lightest carry 9mm's on the market. And the last time I checked, 14oz is lighter than 18oz. Sorry, if I do not feel the need for higher rounds to carry a gun. Just do not buy into the internet on a lot of things. Kahr was ahead of the Game years ago. And IMO still are.

I find the Sig laughable. A gun comes out, shoots like a Ruger LC9S with a few more rounds and the internet explodes! Sorry, I have shot the Sig and no thanks. Don't need a few extra rounds. Fads on the internet gun world come and go. Kahr stays the same and fans like that, and most do not want a change. They want every thing the Kahr offers. The 365 is a gun developed around a magazine. Shooting the 365 was remarkably unremarkable. And now the internet is telling every run to dump fine beautiful guns and RUSH and get the NEWEST thing on the market SHAZAM! Sorry if I do not buy into the hype.
How about this Sig, build me a gun, that is lighter weight than the Kahr in 9mm and shoots great. That would be innovation.
If you cannot rack a gun slide, because it has strong quality recoil springs then simply go find a gun that does. No brainer. Want a lot of rounds and more weight get one. Want to tell Kahr how to run their business, just start your our own. Amazing how many CEO's we have here on the forum.

And to the poster that said he bought a 938 over the 365. Bravo to you, I would take that pistol any day over the 365. And I can name off about 30 pistols and revolvers I would much prefer over the 365. But what do I know? Heck, I never even bought into the red/ green laser's on small guns. To me, they were just another internet hyped up fad. Well, actually I did buy one, but it came off quickly and became a toy for my dog. She loves to chase the little red Beam around in the dark.
To Kahr, I say Bravo to you. Keep up the Great work. You have thousands of loyal fans. Just like the beautiful DAO trigger vs the Super light weight Striker fired guns out there, you stood your ground. And I for one am mighty glad you did. My CW380 and my CM9 run great, carry great. And sometimes Keeping things Simple is just good enough.

[MMyers1970]

Sir you need to speak for yourself. For some reason the Internet folks are trying hard to jam us all into the crowd that higher round count is a no brainer. Sorry, could give a flying Fig about high round count in a small carry pistol What has Kahr giving us? Have no idea what it gave you. They gave me to well made, beautiful Carry guns that shoot terrific. Sorry, In my life of EDC, weight does matter, ounces matter. I have one of the smoothest shooting, lightest carry 9mm's on the market. And the last time I checked, 14oz is lighter than 18oz. Sorry, if I do not feel the need for higher rounds to carry a gun. Just do not buy into the internet on a lot of things. Kahr was ahead of the Game years ago. And IMO still are.

I find the Sig laughable. A gun comes out, shoots like a Ruger LC9S with a few more rounds and the internet explodes! Sorry, I have shot the Sig and no thanks. Don't need a few extra rounds. Fads on the internet gun world come and go. Kahr stays the same and fans like that, and most do not want a change. They want every thing the Kahr offers. The 365 is a gun developed around a magazine. Shooting the 365 was remarkably unremarkable. And now the internet is telling every run to dump fine beautiful guns and RUSH and get the NEWEST thing on the market SHAZAM! Sorry if I do not buy into the hype.
How about this Sig, build me a gun, that is lighter weight than the Kahr in 9mm and shoots great. That would be innovation.
If you cannot rack a gun slide, because it has strong quality recoil springs then simply go find a gun that does. No brainer. Want a lot of rounds and more weight get one. Want to tell Kahr how to run their business, just start your our own. Amazing how many CEO's we have here on the forum.

And to the poster that said he bought a 938 over the 365. Bravo to you, I would take that pistol any day over the 365. And I can name off about 30 pistols and revolvers I would much prefer over the 365. But what do I know? Heck, I never even bought into the red/ green laser's on small guns. To me, they were just another internet hyped up fad. Well, actually I did buy one, but it came off quickly and became a toy for my dog. She loves to chase the little red Beam around in the dark.
To Kahr, I say Bravo to you. Keep up the Great work. You have thousands of loyal fans. Just like the beautiful DAO trigger vs the Super light weight Striker fired guns out there, you stood your ground. And I for one am mighty glad you did. My CW380 and my CM9 run great, carry great. And sometimes Keeping things Simple is just good enough.


11 rounds is better than 7 in the same size handgun. It's a no-brainer.

I would guarantee you SIG sells more P365s than Kahr sells Kahr-branded handguns.

SOME Kahrs are beautifully made handguns---the steel pistols. The Value Line, from which I own a couple of examples, are not very well made at all. My CM9 had polymer hairs shedding from the frame when I got it and had a creak in the trigger pull which necessitated me tweaking it after purchase. My CW380 required a return trip to Kahr, and still is unreliable to the point it's getting replaced with a PPK as soon as I find one.

More rounds in the same size envelope is always a good thing. If you're worrying about a couple of ounces, that makes me think you're not carrying a backup mag---which everyone should be doing.

The trigger on the P365 is beautiful. It's different than the Kahr, but still smooth with a crisp break and a light weight.

Kahr is abandoning a necessary segment of the carry pistol market. Right now there's the G43x, SIG P365, and Springfield Hellcat. Think S&W isn't working on a higher capacity Shield? Of course they are. I expect the big makers are going to bring higher cap ultracompacts to the market----and Kahr will continue to be an also-ran.

Whether YOU support it isn't the issue---the issue is what the market wants, and the market clearly wants more rounds.

[guido4198]

As some have observed...when it was introduced the Kahr PM9/CM9 pistols were the CLEAR leader in micro CCW choices.
Predictably...the industry got busy and began offering new choices while Kahr has pretty much "rested on it's laurels".
My CM9 has so little trade-in value that for the money being offered...I'll just keep it. As a result..I'm upgrading what I have.
I had an early 7-rd magazine which was an utter failure. These days..I read reports that the current offering has those early issues resolved. We'll see..I'll give it another try. There's a kit available to convert a 7 rd to hold 8. With that in place...my current 6+1 becomes an 8+1 and I'm satisfied on the issue of "round count". IMHO: 9 in the gun and 8 more in a spare mag in my pocket will do for daily concealed carry.
I'm using a Don Hume JIT OWB holster in a crossdraw position. Hanes ribbed tank undershirt and pretty much any "over-shirt" with the shirttail untucked is working REAL well.
I was having issues racking the slide on my CM9 until I simply did some research, watched a couple of UTube videos and practiced what I saw. If racking your little Kahr is a problem...I recommend getting educated before giving up. Lastly...Proper cleaning and LUBE is critical. These little pistols are like Lamborghini's compared to dump trucks. You can't keep a high performance car on the road if you maintain it like a dump truck.

[340pd]

I have a PM9 a pair of P365's both function and shoot equally well but, I have never heard "I had too much ammo" following a gunfight. So If I can shoot a number of small pistols equally well, the question of which will I carry becomes rhetorical.

[Bawanna]

Well said King Rat. I'm with you on this. Lots of fine choices out there these days. But as you mention the internet fads are water to a thirsty armchair commando.
Same in all kinds of stuff. Take a Sea Doo, they take the same boat and paint it a different color scheme, all other things the same but that's this year model. People will dump last years and get the new model not to be out done.

Crazy.

Guess I'm officially old but I'm not into the Red Dot sight craze on citizen carry guns, not even into them for cops but it's the trend and like holding back the tide.

[berettabone]

Pretty soon, they'll have a spring and doo dad that will add 27 rds. to your 6 round mag. Of course, you won't be able to see it, because to conceal it, you'll have to run it down your pantleg and tuck it in your sock. Then they'll come out with a doo dad that makes it easier to get the mag out of your sock. Then the following year, they'll come out with a doo dad that gives you one more round. That will make the 27 round sock thing old news, and people will have to get the new one for 28 rds. Then, the following year, they'll have a remote control wagon that follows you loaded with 28 rd. mag doo dads, and extra mags, and a few holsters in case one breaks(which happens all the time:)). You never know when you'll get in to a shootout with armed invaders on Podunk St. in Anywhere, U.S.A. Pop. 123. Then they'll come out with a double stack compact that holds 48 bullets. The grip will be so wide that you won't be able to grip it, but it's the latest and greatest, so people will buy it. They'll put lousy grips and sights on, so you have to change them both, turning a $400 firearm in to an $800 firearm, of which you will never get a return on your investment should you decide to sell it. So you might as well keep it forever. It's these people that fuel the firearm industry. If you look at the marketing, it's not usually the older more experienced shooter that buys in to this crap. It's the other segment of society, who needs the latest and greatest. People who have been around for a while realize that the quality of firearms in general has gone down continuously for ever. Firearms used to be much nicer in function and fit. Now, the industry loves and depends on a segment of society that runs right out and buys the latest gadgets. It's the nature of the business. It's just like golf clubs. Very expensive. Oh, I have to change the grips. Oh, I have to get these head covers. You just purchased a set of clubs that cost you $1000. Try to sell them and see what you get. They've already come out with a new set with a gadget. Ask a Gander Mountain or Cabela's how many used firearms they have in their warehouses. Sig comes out with a gun. Next best thing since sliced bread. Use all these people as guinea pigs. Sell a boatload. Get a bunch of people pissed because they have issues. Most people do not fix their own firearms. It either costs them money to fix, or they sell it, and by god, they run right out and get the next new fangled thing that comes out. A firearm with an extra round is no good if it doesn't work. I think it's hilarious when I read about this extra round this and extra round that. Some even commenting that a new shooter should really be concerned with round count. Give me a break. New shooters are lucky if they don't pee their pants half the time. There's plenty of time for that when you get older.:o Personally, I don't care whether Kahr ever does anything about anything. There are plenty of choices, that's for sure, and it's their business what they do with their firearms.

[DavidR]

Well said MMyers. I’m with you on this.

Not saying I don’t like my CM9. Not saying I won’t keep it. Just saying Kahr has been left behind.

[Ed M]

All this makes me wonder how I survived all those years carrying a 38 snub nose revolver....

[IDisposable]

Here is an idea. If you like what you have, keep it. If you want something else, buy it. If that is not a Kahr, fine...but take your proselytizing to another message board, we don't care.

For me, the S9 is a perfect CCW gun, I don't need more rounds, weight actually matters to some of us. But that's just me... doesn't matter in the slightest whether or not someone else agrees, they aren't me.

Keep the loud end pointed down range and enjoy.

[gb6491]

All this makes me wonder how I survived all those years carrying a 38 snub nose revolver....
Superior tactics

[Bawanna]

And maybe some blind hog luck? I carried a 38 for many years. Guess I had some blind hog luck too.

[Covert Kahr]

I own a TP9 and now a P365. I love the grip of the TP9 and it shoots well. To make it concealable I cut the grip down to PM9 length. It’s a 6+1 gun that worked great in California. Only thing I’d change is to move the trigger pivot point up into the frame, as it is my finger binds between the trigger guard and the trigger pivot. Just an annoyance; that hasn’t ever been fixed by Kahrs designers.

The P365 has swapping capability out both ears. Grip lengths, safety or no safety, slide lengths, threaded barrels, compensated barrels, red dot sight mounts (and soon an RDS to go with it), 10/12/15 round magazines, and more. Like most guns (kahrs included) it has had teething issues. However I’ve got 700+ rounds through my P365 with 0 issues. My TP9 was never that good.

Just saying, buy what you want, but dogging something because it’s new isn’t going to get kahr to reopen their R&D division. Kahrs were the new hotness 20 years ago. It took Glock, Sig, etc to jump on the CCW wagon. What a great time to go shopping for a carry gun. I bought a G27 because that was the smallest I could find. Then a kahr, now a Sig. Get kahr to offer something competitive because I haven’t found an article from the p365 release that stacked it up against a kahr.

[MMyers1970]

Here is an idea. If you like what you have, keep it. If you want something else, buy it. If that is not a Kahr, fine...but take your proselytizing to another message board, we don't care.

For me, the S9 is a perfect CCW gun, I don't need more rounds, weight actually matters to some of us. But that's just me... doesn't matter in the slightest whether or not someone else agrees, they aren't me.

Keep the loud end pointed down range and enjoy.

As he posts to the "Other Firearms Discussion" board.....

[MMyers1970]

I own a TP9 and now a P365. I love the grip of the TP9 and it shoots well. To make it concealable I cut the grip down to PM9 length. It’s a 6+1 gun that worked great in California. Only thing I’d change is to move the trigger pivot point up into the frame, as it is my finger binds between the trigger guard and the trigger pivot. Just an annoyance; that hasn’t ever been fixed by Kahrs designers.

The P365 has swapping capability out both ears. Grip lengths, safety or no safety, slide lengths, threaded barrels, compensated barrels, red dot sight mounts (and soon an RDS to go with it), 10/12/15 round magazines, and more. Like most guns (kahrs included) it has had teething issues. However I’ve got 700+ rounds through my P365 with 0 issues. My TP9 was never that good.

Just saying, buy what you want, but dogging something because it’s new isn’t going to get kahr to reopen their R&D division. Kahrs were the new hotness 20 years ago. It took Glock, Sig, etc to jump on the CCW wagon. What a great time to go shopping for a carry gun. I bought a G27 because that was the smallest I could find. Then a kahr, now a Sig. Get kahr to offer something competitive because I haven’t found an article from the p365 release that stacked it up against a kahr.


^ this guy gets it. The firearms industry is trendy and technology moves forward. Look at COLT. Colt dropped the ball on every autopistol except the 1911. They tried the "All American 2000" and failed miserably. Meanwhile, Glock and SIG and Beretta and S&W were selling doublestack 9mms and .40s by the cargo container every year. Colt thought they could make it on AR-15s, 1911s, and government contracts. But when the competition offered comparable or better products, Colt was left flat-footed, and is struggling to this day. They still don't offer an autopistol other than the 1911, and their revolvers aren't going to make a dent against Ruger and S&W.

Kahr was the pinnacle of concealed carry pistol when the P9 came out. It was the first carry pistol I actually stuck with---after trying a S&W 3913 and a SIG P239. The P9 was the thinnest and lightest 9mm on the market. I also have a G26 but the comfort of carrying the P9 rapidly advanced it to my EDC. There was nothing comparable to the P9 for a long time, not until the Shield came out.

But now everybody has a small single stack polymer pistol(though the PM/CM9 is still among the smallest), and the market is rewarding manufacturers who offer a PM9 sized pistol with extra capacity. SIG sold a TON of P365s. Glock sold a ton of G43x and G48s, and those took minimal R&D. Springfield is going to eventually drop the price of the Hellcat to $350, and they'll dominate the market and make boatloads of money.

And Kahr will give us a +3 magazine and hope we buy it.

[IDisposable]

As he posts to the "Other Firearms Discussion" board.....To be clear, I said take the proselytizing elsewhere, not discussions of other firearms... Big difference between talking about your new found girl at the bar and bitching about the old one at her mom's house.

[MMyers1970]

To be clear, I said take the proselytizing elsewhere, not discussions of other firearms... Big difference between talking about your new found girl at the bar and bitching about the old one at her mom's house.

Not even remotely the same. "Proselytizing"? No. If you are so attached to a particular brand of firearm that discussing its shortcomings and the advantages of another is "proselytizing" to you, it may be time to take a breath and step back for a minute.

Did SIG sell more P365s than Kahr sold CM9s? Undoubtedly. I'd wager that SIG sold more P365s than Kahr sold Kahrs.

I happen to have it on good authority that Kahr isn't putting any additional money into Kahr R&D any time soon. They've seen that they make more money on Desert Eagles and Auto-Ordnance 1911s than Kahrs.

The worst decision they ever made for the brand was the introduction of the Value Line. Yes, they increased sales----but they tainted their brand. If you're looking at a new pistol, why would ANYONE buy as PM9 over a CM9. For what, two extra mags, a milled front sight, and some extra machining operations on the slide? Why would anyone ever spend $600 on a P380 when a CW380 can be had for under $300? Ever talk to a gun store owner? They don't stock Kahrs because they don't sell. They don't sell, even though they are excellent firearms, because they're so cheap that people think they're garbage.

The main selling point the CM9 had when introduced was its size. It was the smallest and lightest 9mm on the market. Now the P365 and Hellcat are within millimeters of being the same size as a CM9. Why would a new buyer choose less capacity over more in the same size pistol?

IF they don't keep up with trends, they'll be an also ran.

[DavidR]

Kahr knows by the sales numbers that their flagship brand isn’t doing well. Their last attempt at innovation (Gen2?) never made it to market. It doesn’t hurt for them to know that even some current owners/fans would like to see some innovation.

[MMyers1970]

Kahr knows by the sales numbers that their flagship brand isn’t doing well. Their last attempt at innovation (Gen2?) never made it to market. It doesn’t hurt for them to know that even some current owners/fans would like to see some innovation.

I asked a Kahr rep what the status of the Gen 2 pistols was. He told me they weren't able to get them to be drop safe so they discontinued the line. The S series of Kahrs is an offshoot of that project---the frames were designed for the Gen 2 pistols. Shame, the few reports from people who handled the Gen 2 at shows were positive----"A Kahr trigger but shorter".

Now Galloway Precision has designed a short travel trigger for Kahr pistols. Why couldn't Kahr?

[guido4198]

"Now Galloway Precision has designed a short travel trigger for Kahr pistols."

Not finding that on their website. Is there something coming..??? I'd LOVE to have a shorter travel trigger in my CM9.

[DavidR]

"Now Galloway Precision has designed a short travel trigger for Kahr pistols."

Not finding that on their website. Is there something coming..??? I'd LOVE to have a shorter travel trigger in my CM9.

It’s not available yet. There are a couple of threads discussing it. Hopefully soon.

[MMyers1970]

It’s not available yet. There are a couple of threads discussing it. Hopefully soon.

It's on their YouTube channel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI5lUvKBxNc

[King Rat]

Not even remotely the same. "Proselytizing"? No. If you are so attached to a particular brand of firearm that discussing its shortcomings and the advantages of another is "proselytizing" to you, it may be time to take a breath and step back for a minute.

Did SIG sell more P365s than Kahr sold CM9s? Undoubtedly. I'd wager that SIG sold more P365s than Kahr sold Kahrs.

I happen to have it on good authority that Kahr isn't putting any additional money into Kahr R&D any time soon. They've seen that they make more money on Desert Eagles and Auto-Ordnance 1911s than Kahrs.

The worst decision they ever made for the brand was the introduction of the Value Line. Yes, they increased sales----but they tainted their brand. If you're looking at a new pistol, why would ANYONE buy as PM9 over a CM9. For what, two extra mags, a milled front sight, and some extra machining operations on the slide? Why would anyone ever spend $600 on a P380 when a CW380 can be had for under $300? Ever talk to a gun store owner? They don't stock Kahrs because they don't sell. They don't sell, even though they are excellent firearms, because they're so cheap that people think they're garbage.

The main selling point the CM9 had when introduced was its size. It was the smallest and lightest 9mm on the market. Now the P365 and Hellcat are within millimeters of being the same size as a CM9. Why would a new buyer choose less capacity over more in the same size pistol?

IF they don't keep up with trends, they'll be an also ran.

I have to laugh at all this. I love the value line and so do many others. What is not to like. So you have the actual numbers of sold guns? How about sharing that with us. Last time I looked the the Kahr was the lightest weight in class. And that means a lot. Yes, I have talked to many gun store owners and they do not sell a whole lot of brands of firearms. They go with the Market especially in the particular area. One sells mostly Tauras and one sells mostly Glocks due to the military. They sell a lot of LCP's due to the tremoundous amount of marketing dollars, and they themselves admit that it is not the best gun in class. No they do not sell a lot of Kahrs because Newbies want a light Striker fired trigger with a short rest. Most have never even shot a double action, especially a good one.
Why would someone buy a higher capacity over one that can now hold 8+1? Because they could care less about a few rounds. Not the entire world is sold on high capacity magazine which also add more weight. I have to laugh at your comment about the value line being tainted. I sure am glad to have a tainted quality gun.
Now this might come as a HUGE surprise to you. Many folks love the Kahr trigger. I mean flat out love it for a small carry. I will take that trigger over a large magazine any day.
Your comment "IF they don't keep up with trends, they'll be an also ran.". Wow! man you need to call Kahr immediately and tell them you want to run the company as you know so much more than they do. Tell them what they are doing wrong and maybe you can show them how to be successful. I can't wait.

You must have different vision than I do, they sure do not look the same size or weight to me. And how do you even know where the Hellcat will be in one year. How long as the Kahr been out and regardless of what you say, It is successful. And Proven.
I get it, you like to come on the Kahr forum and bash the gun. Maybe you would have better luck on the Springfield forum? And believe one thing. I do not go into a gun store and ask any clerk what is the best gun. Lol,

https://i.imgur.com/coHwTZS.jpg?1

[Bawanna]

I think we need a group hug or a time out or something here.

I like the part where somebody said get what you like and stick with it. If it isn't a kahr, ok, if it is a kahr, that's ok too.

I've had fine luck with several and still have them all. Do I want to play with the Hellcat, yes I do absolutely. Will it replace my Kahr, most likely not but there's plenty of gun love in me for a whole bunch, even a whole bunch more than I already got.

[Covert Kahr]

I think we need a group hug or a time out or something here.

I like the part where somebody said get what you like and stick with it. If it isn't a kahr, ok, if it is a kahr, that's ok too.

I've had fine luck with several and still have them all. Do I want to play with the Hellcat, yes I do absolutely. Will it replace my Kahr, most likely not but there's plenty of gun love in me for a whole bunch, even a whole bunch more than I already got.

Ain’t that the truth. I still have my kahr, just not sure what I’ll do with it now. The p365 is a better gun in all ways that matter to me. I took some pictures to compare my TP9 to the long slide p365 on a standard grip, and standard 365 on standard grip.

P365 standard is P9 length with an MP9 height carrying 10+1 vs 6+1. Throw in a 15 round spare mag and I would need 2-3 spare mags to get the same capacity. I can throw on the long slide and mount a red dot to it and have a gun that is the same size as my chopped TP9.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191102/db7e5d6d0c04911de5443acbfe8d5116.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191102/973880883d7cc174c88f80456d19334b.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191102/2041e1248780099bfc57d97715327784.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191102/4ca7d1b61f5ffa8253a2263c561c2b81.jpg

[yqtszhj]

I like that chopped TP9. Just looks cool to me.

[Covert Kahr]

I like that chopped TP9. Just looks cool to me.

Same here, so much so that I’ve spent about 1k on getting the Sig to that same size factor. Will see how it handles tomorrow.

For my covert TP9, I need to talk to XS to see about getting a taller rear sight to raise up the poi. Swapped out the sights and it’s shooting about 12” low at 10 yards. Might try it again tomorrow to see if I can figure out how far off it is.

[Bawanna]

Are you covering what you want to hit with them XS's. You can't use a 6 oclock hole, you gotta cover the bull.

I love em myself but many don't just for that reason.

[Covert Kahr]

Are you covering what you want to hit with them XS's. You can't use a 6 oclock hole, you gotta cover the bull.

I love em myself but many don't just for that reason.

Covering. The impact is so low I’m not comfortable using it. P365 sights are cover POI as well. About 4” lower than what’s on top of the sights at 10yds.

[MMyers1970]

Yeah, incredible. I expect that a lot of these were sold to Sig fans but this has to hurt Kahr. Hellcat is up next. Kahr will be in trouble if they don’t innovate.

[QUOTE=King Rat;410102]I have to laugh at all this. I love the value line and so do many others. What is not to like."

So you don't see how offering two virtually identical firearms at vastly different price points could cannibalize the sales of the more expensive ones? New gun buyera aren't likely swayed to spend more money by the addition of two extra magazines and some extra slide milling. By offering the "Value Line", Kahr impacted sales of the Premium Line(not the steel guns, those are a totally different buyer).

[Covert Kahr]

So you don't see how offering two virtually identical firearms at vastly different price points could cannibalize the sales of the more expensive ones? New gun buyera aren't likely swayed to spend more money by the addition of two extra magazines and some extra slide milling. By offering the "Value Line", Kahr impacted sales of the Premium Line(not the steel guns, those are a totally different buyer).

The other problem is that the value line weren’t as reliable, reportedly, as normal Kahrs. That reflects on the entire lineup and hurts sales.

[Bawanna]

Don't know why they wouldn't be as reliable and never heard that myself. They are the same operating system just less cosmetics on the slide.

[AnthonyC]

Went slumming around the LGS's yesterday. North central FL. Can not get the Glock 43x off my mind. Only Glock I have ever held that I liked...and sad thing is , I really like it. Had my CM9 (In very good shape) on me and just asked just for the sake of asking how much for a trade....get this. 5 shops...one offer $100...one $125...and 3 offers of ..."Can not take a Kahr on trade, no call for them in the local market. New shooters do not like them and experienced ones say they are over rated and a PITA.
I though Kahr popularity had increased! Was really shocked to get 3 that did not even want to talk trade in at all.
Really do not want to trade my CM9 in, but do not have any other firearm I would get rid of except my Springfield XDe...and what I want is much more than I will get on a 43x with a Blue label price of $380.

I think there is a glut of firearms on the market for the past few years. Since Nov. 2016 I believe. Leading up to the 2016 election people were stockpiling ammo and buying guns like gangbusters. Since Trump won the election a lot of people stopped stocking up on guns and ammo for a couple of years. In fact, on multiple forums and gunsites, people seem to be desperate to sell their guns and prices for used guns have dropped amazingly. There has been a bit of an uptick in the past few months with the 2020 elections just around the corner but nothing like 2015-2016 when Hiliary looked like a shoo-in.

As for me, I keeping my CM9 for several reasons. It's accurate, reliable and very easy to carry AIWB and in the front pocket. I have not held a loaded P365 but I am not sure it's as nice to pocket carry based solely on weight. Even 4 oz (heavier empty weight plus it holds 4 more rounds) makes a big difference when carried in the front pocket of dress pants.

However, it would be nice if Kahr would take some initiative, put some cash into R&D and innovate.

[guido4198]

The other problem is that the value line weren’t as reliable, reportedly, as normal Kahrs. That reflects on the entire lineup and hurts sales.

Please don't take this wrong. I'm not trying to start an argument but you've made a rather serious statement there. Can you support that contention with facts, or is that opinion..??? "Reportedly less reliable than normal Kahrs"..???
Reported by whom...??? I would like to see those reports. I would like to drill down into them and see what it is about the "C" series that is reported to be affecting reliability. I put my CM9.."Value Line" 9mm into it's Don Hume holster pretty much everyday and bet my life on it.
I haven't had ANY reason to question it's reliability vs any other choice I could make. If I've missed seeing reliable, VALID reports documenting functional issues with the CM series...I would sincerely like to see them. My experience with my CM9 and the variety of loads I've run through it over the years has been excellent, but I understand that limited anecdotal personal experience doesn't count.
Thank you.

[Covert Kahr]

Please don't take this wrong. I'm not trying to start an argument but you've made a rather serious statement there. Can you support that contention with facts, or is that opinion..??? "Reportedly less reliable than normal Kahrs"..???
Reported by whom...??? I would like to see those reports. I would like to drill down into them and see what it is about the "C" series that is reported to be affecting reliability. I put my CM9.."Value Line" 9mm into it's Don Hume holster pretty much everyday and bet my life on it.
I haven't had ANY reason to question it's reliability vs any other choice I could make. If I've missed seeing reliable, VALID reports documenting functional issues with the CM series...I would sincerely like to see them. My experience with my CM9 and the variety of loads I've run through it over the years has been excellent, but I understand that limited anecdotal personal experience doesn't count.
Thank you.

It’s probably the same amount of data as folks that have failures of the sig P365 or glocks that go kaboom. All you need is a couple of failures that people can blame on the quality; regardless of if the failures are within the expected failure rate for production. Over the years I’ve read of people complaining about kahrs, generally the value line. Which is just anecdotal as I didn’t bother tracking it. But after the 3rd or 4th time hearing about problems, it starts to stick.

[guido4198]

Ok, Thanks.
I know what you mean about folks posting opinions or anecdotal evidence that sometimes takes on a life of it’s own and in doing so gains a measure of “ internet credibility” that is totally unwarranted.

[MMyers1970]

Don't know why they wouldn't be as reliable and never heard that myself. They are the same operating system just less cosmetics on the slide.

Bawanna----I own Kahrs from the Value Line, Premium Line, and the steel models, and the only ones I've had any problems with are my Value Line pistols. My CW380 was unreliable after 300 rounds and was sent back to Kahr. It's better but it doesn't get through 50 rounds without a malfunction. My CM9 came from the factory with lots of polymer fibers shedding and a creaky trigger. It's always been reliable but it took some elbow grease to make it a nice pistol.

[Mike_usn_ret]

As much as I liked my CM9, I must say I am totally happy with my Glock 43x. Added a flat trigger , front fiber optic sight and a grip sleeve. Here is a pic of shooting after installing the new trigger. .......and by the way...I did buy my friends CM9. He sold it to me for $200!!! So now I have the best of both worlds. 1635016351

[guido4198]

I've been following and enjoying this thread and thought I'd share a thought or two I haven't seen yet.
My CM9 works just fine. That said, like so many of us..I sometimes fall into the trap of wanting to try the "next new thing". With an idea of doing a trade...I discovered that my CM9..like new, in the original box with papers, etc. doesn't have much trade value. That can be a liberating feeling. It's much easier to try various modifications on such an item. Sort of: "What have I got to lose..??".
So Far:
I've put a "ghetto grip sleeve" on it, then added a couple wraps of plain old "Friction Tape" from Home Depot. I like the resultant feel of the pistol in my hand MUCH better than stock and NO...I don't care how it looks.
I installed the Magguts 6+1 spring kit for the magazine that rides in the gun so that I'm carrying 8. I've left the spare mag that I carry in my pocket original (so far) while I thoroughly test the new mag springs.
I installed the MCarbo spring kit to lighten the trigger pull. It works GREAT with every variety of modern factory ammo I've tried, and my own reloads using Winchester small pistol primers. CCI500's good, but not 100%. The lighter springs don't work at all with some old (1960's production) Portuguese milsurp stuff I bought a long time ago to spray out of a STEN gun. (BTW:The Kahr factory springs do work with that stuff.) The installation video from MCarbo is awesome. Even an old ham hand like me can do it first time.
The MCarbo kit doesn't do anything to change the Loooonnnggg reset. That's good news to a lot of folks so I thought it worth mentioning.
IF....(big if I know)...Galloway or anyone else ever offers a trigger kit to shorten that reset..I'll be in line to try that too.
So, here we are. On the advice of my Brother Rob...I ordered a Don Hume JIT OWB holster with a sturdy belt and learned to dress accordingly. A thin tank top tucked in, worn under any other shirt (including a T-shirt) NOT tucked gives me all the coverage I need for everyday carry. The little CM9 shoots great and has proven itself to be reliable enough with modern ammo to bet my life on. In the JIT belt holster...it simply "disappears on my side" under my shirt and will provide me with 8 rounds of 9mm immediately and 6 (possibly 7) more should GOD FORBID...the need arise.
Not too shabby for a little pistol nobody seems to want huh..??

[187911]

Ok, Thanks.
I know what you mean about folks posting opinions or anecdotal evidence that sometimes takes on a life of it’s own and in doing so gains a measure of “ internet credibility” that is totally unwarranted.

Other than with the 380 and complaints about mags, I haven't heard or seen any significant number of complaints over the about the Kahr's value line pistols other than the few anecdotals from people who personal had issues with their examples. People who went on to magnify and project their issues onto the entire line...

The are basically the same gun with minor upgrades. I was around when the value line was first introduced, I've been a member of several popular gun forums for years as well. I've rarely ever heard anything negative about value line or premium line of Kahr pistols. The main complaint against Kahr is their mags.

[Mike_usn_ret]

Well I have been a big fan of the CM9 from the first day I shot mine, and will never say it is not a great firearm. To hear some of these LGS owners try to rip a Kahr to shreads just makes me wonder why they are not on TV telling people to .."Put your hand on the TV and your money in the mail for Jesus"!! Because all they know is to spill out nonsense to people that do not know better. Guns have to provide comfort, reliability, accuracy and I guess some sense of pride to the owner. The CM9 does that but the Glock 43x just does a little more for me. I shoot it better and it is lighter and holds more rds (not a real big deal for me honestly) and just fits my hand better than the CM9. But having both of these firearms is very satisfying to say the least. And remember at 69 years old and this is my first Glock....I am not nor will I ever be telling people a Glock is the one and only gun for you...especially since I will never part with my CZs, Springfield XDe or either of my Kahrs again.

[Bawanna]

Pure lack of knowledge in the gun shops. They just pass on internet propaganda like everyone else.

We don't have any shops nearby now that I trust for information. I do my research, sort out the wheat from the chaff and make a decision.

Tried to order my PM45 from a dealer, he told me I didn't want one of those the were so expensive. Told him OK, ordered it online and had it transferred. Sale lost pal.

[King Rat]

Pure lack of knowledge in the gun shops. They just pass on internet propaganda like everyone else.

We don't have any shops nearby now that I trust for information. I do my research, sort out the wheat from the chaff and make a decision.

Tried to order my PM45 from a dealer, he told me I didn't want one of those the were so expensive. Told him OK, ordered it online and had it transferred. Sale lost pal.

Some of the junk now made as truth on the internet has gone so far out of reality. What is also amazing is how the Kahr was so far ahead of things and got it right so many years ago. For one it is so simple, refined, almost elegant. The Kahr CM9 IMO is about a grand example of perfection as I have seen in any Micro 9mm. A gun you can just hold in your hand and admire. A Honest true, deliberate and smooth DAO. Which in these days, the internet has convinced the Public that only a Light Striker Fired Trigger is the only good trigger. Even Newbies coming up the the LGS counter and wanting the lightest trigger possible and the shortest reset. In order to make sales some of the Gun manufacturers try every gimmick out there. Anything new comes along and they run to it like Lemmings over a cliff. Convinced that they have to have more and more high round count magazines, lighter triggers, shorter resets. It has become a joke. People lined up to buy the 365 even before shooting one, only to find it does not even fit their hand. Now wanting Red Dots scopes on small carry guns, holsters and carry not considered. Other sights that are hard to even use, Ported barrels that cause a crazy loud noise that will be disastrous if they have to actually shoot one in self defense, like inside a vehicle for instance, or blinded by muzzle blast.
Kahr walks their own Path. Simple design, high quality, safe smooth and deliberate trigger. Bravo to them. My Hat is off to them. Gimmicks, fads, Hype, and billions of Dollars spent on ads and propaganda does not make a good gun. More is NOT better.
I will say this now, and I have shot most Micro's out there. A lot of them, to include the 365. The Kahr CM is a Great Gun! And just recently bought another when I could have easily purchased a Sig 365.

PS; Mike I also shot the Glock 43X. Nice gun for sure, but not a good fit for me. Woke up the next day with a terrible blister on my Trigger finger. And yes, everyone should go with what the shoot the best.

by the way, I had the CW380 out the other day, I shoot small guns very often. I have to say that this gun shot so mild and so easy for me it was crazy. Rapid Fire and 3-4" groups consistently. And do not anyone tell me, I need a light Crisp Trigger with short reset. That is total BS.

[yqtszhj]

Some of the junk now made as truth on the internet has gone so far out of reality. What is also amazing is how the Kahr was so far ahead of things and got it right so many years ago. For one it is so simple, refined, almost elegant. The Kahr CM9 IMO is about a grand example of perfection as I have seen in any Micro 9mm. A gun you can just hold in your hand and admire. A Honest true, deliberate and smooth DAO. Which in these days, the internet has convinced the Public that only a Light Striker Fired Trigger is the only good trigger. Even Newbies coming up the the LGS counter and wanting the lightest trigger possible and the shortest reset. In order to make sales some of the Gun manufacturers try every gimmick out there. Anything new comes along and they run to it like Lemmings over a cliff. Convinced that they have to have more and more high round count magazines, lighter triggers, shorter resets. It has become a joke. People lined up to buy the 365 even before shooting one, only to find it does not even fit their hand. Now wanting Red Dots scopes on small carry guns, holsters and carry not considered. Other sights that are hard to even use, Ported barrels that cause a crazy loud noise that will be disastrous if they have to actually shoot one in self defense, like inside a vehicle for instance, or blinded by muzzle blast.
Kahr walks their own Path. Simple design, high quality, safe smooth and deliberate trigger. Bravo to them. My Hat is off to them. Gimmicks, fads, Hype, and billions of Dollars spent on ads and propaganda does not make a good gun. More is NOT better.
I will say this now, and I have shot most Micro's out there. A lot of them, to include the 365. The Kahr CM is a Great Gun! And just recently bought another when I could have easily purchased a Sig 365.

PS; Mike I also shot the Glock 43X. Nice gun for sure, but not a good fit for me. Woke up the next day with a terrible blister on my Trigger finger. And yes, everyone should go with what the shoot the best.

by the way, I had the CW380 out the other day, I shoot small guns very often. I have to say that this gun shot so mild and so easy for me it was crazy. Rapid Fire and 3-4" groups consistently. And do not anyone tell me, I need a light Crisp Trigger with short reset. That is total BS.

That about sums it up right there. Good post.

[yqtszhj]

Pure lack of knowledge in the gun shops. They just pass on internet propaganda like everyone else.

We don't have any shops nearby now that I trust for information. I do my research, sort out the wheat from the chaff and make a decision.

Tried to order my PM45 from a dealer, he told me I didn't want one of those the were so expensive. Told him OK, ordered it online and had it transferred. Sale lost pal.

This is a fact too. Good one Colonel.

[Covert Kahr]

Some of the junk now made as truth on the internet has gone so far out of reality. What is also amazing is how the Kahr was so far ahead of things and got it right so many years ago. For one it is so simple, refined, almost elegant. The Kahr CM9 IMO is about a grand example of perfection as I have seen in any Micro 9mm. A gun you can just hold in your hand and admire. A Honest true, deliberate and smooth DAO. Which in these days, the internet has convinced the Public that only a Light Striker Fired Trigger is the only good trigger. Even Newbies coming up the the LGS counter and wanting the lightest trigger possible and the shortest reset. In order to make sales some of the Gun manufacturers try every gimmick out there. Anything new comes along and they run to it like Lemmings over a cliff. Convinced that they have to have more and more high round count magazines, lighter triggers, shorter resets. It has become a joke. People lined up to buy the 365 even before shooting one, only to find it does not even fit their hand. Now wanting Red Dots scopes on small carry guns, holsters and carry not considered. Other sights that are hard to even use, Ported barrels that cause a crazy loud noise that will be disastrous if they have to actually shoot one in self defense, like inside a vehicle for instance, or blinded by muzzle blast.
Kahr walks their own Path. Simple design, high quality, safe smooth and deliberate trigger. Bravo to them. My Hat is off to them. Gimmicks, fads, Hype, and billions of Dollars spent on ads and propaganda does not make a good gun. More is NOT better.
I will say this now, and I have shot most Micro's out there. A lot of them, to include the 365. The Kahr CM is a Great Gun! And just recently bought another when I could have easily purchased a Sig 365.

PS; Mike I also shot the Glock 43X. Nice gun for sure, but not a good fit for me. Woke up the next day with a terrible blister on my Trigger finger. And yes, everyone should go with what the shoot the best.

by the way, I had the CW380 out the other day, I shoot small guns very often. I have to say that this gun shot so mild and so easy for me it was crazy. Rapid Fire and 3-4" groups consistently. And do not anyone tell me, I need a light Crisp Trigger with short reset. That is total BS.

If Kahr made a 10+1 capacity PM9, would you buy it, or decry Kahrs trendiness? Haha, J/K. But I hear Kahr is producing a pretty sweet single shot DOA for the next shot show.

[DavidR]

If Kahr made a 10+1 capacity PM9, would you buy it, or decry Kahrs trendiness? Haha, J/K. But I hear Kahr is producing a pretty sweet single shot DOA for the next shot show.

Good post.

The CM9 is what it is and I like mine. It’s been reliable for 1400 rounds and it conceals well.

The P365 is what it is and I like mine. It’s been reliable for 300 rounds and it conceals well.

It’s good to have choices. For now the 365 is carried and the CM9 sits in reserve in a lock box.

[Bawanna]

Lots of people really hung up on capacity around here. Want it both ways, tiny little gun that disappears in your pocket but holds a dozen rounds. Even stooping to mouse gun 380 for more rounds and even smaller.
Maybe they can come out with an inflatable model. You pull it out and blow it up and you have a 9mm with 26 rounds?

My 1911 only holds 8 but never felt the need for more. Guess you can get extended mags for an extra couple but grab an extra mag and I got 8 more.

Cops need high capacity sidearms but even they prefer small slim back up guns, often times not just for extra shots but something to get to if they lose their primary sidearm or are in a position they can't get it etc.

I think King Rat nailed it proper.

[340pd]

Love my P365's but the PM9 is still the only 9mm I can drop into the pocket of a pair of lightweight wool dress pants and have no printing worries and still very easy to draw.

[DavidR]

I think King Rat nailed it proper.

And I think he expressed a point of view, and it’s just that, a point of view. One that I don’t agree with and apparently 600,000 people who have chosen the 365 over the CM9 don’t agree with it either. And no, they haven’t chosen it because they’re lemmings falling for a marketing scam. That’s a ridiculous assertion. I’ll leave it at that.

[Bawanna]

Everything posted here is a point of view or an opinion. 600,000 people might agree on something (not likely but guess it could happen) but that don't make it right for everybody. Look at our last president the majority picked him, that certainly don't make it right.

King Rat's subliminal message to my small mind was this works for me, do whatever works for you.

I mean millions prefer woman with big hooters, Itxi thinks they are all too big, who's right and who's wrong, nobody I don't think.

[DavidR]

Lol.

I must have missed the subliminal message amidst the talk of lemmings, hype, fads, newbies, etc. etc.

[yqtszhj]

Well, if we’re talking about voting, no matter what itxi says I prefer big ones :amflag:

[Armybrat]

I think King Rat nailed it proper.
Yes he did.
I have no plans to buy a 365 or any other compact hi-cap except a Kahr, if Justin introduces one like a 10+1 CW9/CM9 Covert. Until then I will just order some Magguts kits for my CW9 & CT380.

[Armybrat]

Well, if we’re talking about voting, no matter what itxi says I prefer big ones :amflag:

As in the “where’s my chips?” Video posted in the November thread. :D

[King Rat]

And I think he expressed a point of view, and it’s just that, a point of view. One that I don’t agree with and apparently 600,000 people who have chosen the 365 over the CM9 don’t agree with it either. And no, they haven’t chosen it because they’re lemmings falling for a marketing scam. That’s a ridiculous assertion. I’ll leave it at that.

Hardly is the fact that if indeed Sig sold 600,000 it is not a massive marketing of hype and dollars. You say they Choose it over the Khar CM9, then well then they choose it also over every single gun in the same class out there. And how many were sold before the gun even hit the streets? My Gosh, every LGS in my town had a huge waiting list to get a gun, they themselves had not even shot. It was ridiculous. Yes, marketing, hype and internet explosion. Every Youtube reviewer was trying to beat the other to the review. The more I watched this feeding frenzy the more I just laughed.

Man ya got to love the internet and ya got to love marketing. I mean you take away the magazine with a few more rounds and what do you have?? Do you honestly think that people would have lined up to buy a gun in such a frenzy if it just had a 7 rd magazine?
SIG and marketing were selling the Sizzle and NOT the steak. And the Sizzle was the Magazine NOT the gun. And people were buying it hook line and sinker. What ever number of units Sig did sell (and God only knows what the real truth is) I would bet that 50% were sold before they hit the streets. So what about the actual steak? When a group of friends of mine tested the gun and all very experienced shooters we found the shooting of the gun remarkable unremarkable. Not a bad shooter, but many other guns out there shoot so much better. Very similar to a Ruger LC9S but with a shorter length. One of the shooters actually like the gun, and even purchased one. A middle age woman who liked the size for her hand. She has told me since that she traded in the gun for a Glock as the gun just had one problem after the other at the 2,000 rd mark. One guy on another forum was so enthused by the large round count, he bought one, it failed and he bought two more and they had failures. He says the latest call to Sig was that Sig told him they just came out with a new Recoil guide rod and spring that would fix his issue. He is now selling the gun and has already bought a Hellcat. And if the internet tells you to put coke in your whiskey, fine. I will just take mine straight. Smooth and honest.

Look, I did not mean to come on and post to disparage the Sig. It is a nice gun. But when someone walks into the House of Kahr and starts putting down the CM9 over the Sig, well then the gloves just came off. So let's just get it on.
If you own a Sig, I am sure things will work out. I sincerly hope they do and I mean this. $500.00 is a lot of money for some folks. When buying a EDC, you need to take your time. Especially on any new product. Sig has some things to iron out on the Sig 365 and they will most likely get it right. The Hellcat is out now, with even one more round if that is your thing. Enjoy the Sig, but do not tell me that it is a better gun than a CM9. Because you and all the Marketing dollars in the world will not convince me. And neither will the guy behind the counter of the LGS. By the way, that long line to get the Sig? It is gone, they have plenty in stock. Now a line to get the Hellcat.
In the meantime, my CM9 and I had a fine day at the range today. And she rode like the Champion she is. And able to turn on a dime and do it with a whole lot of class!

[DavidR]

Look, I did not mean to come on and post to disparage the Sig. It is a nice gun. But when some folks started putting down the CM9 over the Sig, well then the gloves just came off. So let's just get it on.


I couldn't care less if you disparage the P365, just a little tired of all your hyperbole.

[guido4198]

Yes he did.
I have no plans to buy a 365 or any other compact hi-cap except a Kahr, if Justin introduces one like a 10+1 CW9/CM9 Covert. Until then I will just order some Magguts kits for my CW9 & CT380.
You might want to hold off on that MagGuts order for a minute or two. The replacement spring kit I got from them last week is worthless. I have sent them an email asking what they will do to resolve my issue and so far haven't heard back from them. I'll either be hearing from them SOON...or will be happy to post the whole report, with pictures and just write off the wasted money as a lesson learned, and stay with the Kahr 6-rd mags I have.

[gb6491]

You might want to hold off on that MagGuts order for a minute or two. The replacement spring kit I got from them last week is worthless. I have sent them an email asking what they will do to resolve my issue and so far haven't heard back from them. I'll either be hearing from them SOON...or will be happy to post the whole report, with pictures and just write off the wasted money as a lesson learned, and stay with the Kahr 6-rd mags I have.
If I might inquire, what's up with your kit?
Regards,
Greg

[JinRC]

I second the question. What's happening with your kit?
I've got two kits coming tomorrow, it would be nice to look for any defects.
Thanks

[berettabone]

Hardly is the fact that if indeed Sig sold 600,000 it is not a massive marketing of hype and dollars. You say they Choose it over the Khar CM9, then well then they choose it also over every single gun in the same class out there. And how many were sold before the gun even hit the streets? My Gosh, every LGS in my town had a huge waiting list to get a gun, they themselves had not even shot. It was ridiculous. Yes, marketing, hype and internet explosion. Every Youtube reviewer was trying to beat the other to the review. The more I watched this feeding frenzy the more I just laughed.

Man ya got to love the internet and ya got to love marketing. I mean you take away the magazine with a few more rounds and what do you have?? Do you honestly think that people would have lined up to buy a gun in such a frenzy if it just had a 7 rd magazine?
SIG and marketing were selling the Sizzle and NOT the steak. And the Sizzle was the Magazine NOT the gun. And people were buying it hook line and sinker. What ever number of units Sig did sell (and God only knows what the real truth is) I would bet that 50% were sold before they hit the streets. So what about the actual steak? When a group of friends of mine tested the gun and all very experienced shooters we found the shooting of the gun remarkable unremarkable. Not a bad shooter, but many other guns out there shoot so much better. Very similar to a Ruger LC9S but with a shorter length. One of the shooters actually like the gun, and even purchased one. A middle age woman who liked the size for her hand. She has told me since that she traded in the gun for a Glock as the gun just had one problem after the other at the 2,000 rd mark. One guy on another forum was so enthused by the large round count, he bought one, it failed and he bought two more and they had failures. He says the latest call to Sig was that Sig told him they just came out with a new Recoil guide rod and spring that would fix his issue. He is now selling the gun and has already bought a Hellcat. And if the internet tells you to put coke in your whiskey, fine. I will just take mine straight. Smooth and honest.

Look, I did not mean to come on and post to disparage the Sig. It is a nice gun. But when someone walks into the House of Kahr and starts putting down the CM9 over the Sig, well then the gloves just came off. So let's just get it on.
If you own a Sig, I am sure things will work out. I sincerly hope they do and I mean this. $500.00 is a lot of money for some folks. When buying a EDC, you need to take your time. Especially on any new product. Sig has some things to iron out on the Sig 365 and they will most likely get it right. The Hellcat is out now, with even one more round if that is your thing. Enjoy the Sig, but do not tell me that it is a better gun than a CM9. Because you and all the Marketing dollars in the world will not convince me. And neither will the guy behind the counter of the LGS. By the way, that long line to get the Sig? It is gone, they have plenty in stock. Now a line to get the Hellcat.
In the meantime, my CM9 and I had a fine day at the range today. And she rode like the Champion she is. And able to turn on a dime and do it with a whole lot of class! The firearms world is saturated with the latest and greatest. You should be thankful that there are soooooo many guinea pigs out there. With some investigating, it makes other's decisions easier as far as what firearms to purchase. I hope that the guinee's continue to buy in to the firearm world hype. Makes it easier for others to make more rational and intelligent decisions when making a purchase. Sig accomplished what they wanted to do. They got the long lines. Many paid the price for jumping on the band wagon without a test drive. It's what makes the gun world tick. I really don't think that Sig did itself any favors with many people and may have ruined a reputation with some. Was it worth it????????????? Now it's Springfield's turn...………..all the troubles for an extra bullet or two. Hilarious to sit back and watch.:p

[Covert Kahr]

Enjoy the Sig, but do not tell me that it is a better gun than a CM9. Because you and all the Marketing dollars in the world will not convince me. And neither will the guy behind the counter of the LGS.

That’s why I test fired one at a rental range first. I like my kahr, carried it for years in California. After 700+ flawless rounds through the Sig the kahr stays in the box. Might take it to the range for a comparison, but it does nothing that the Sig doesn’t do better. A PM9 would pocket carry better than the Sig, but by the time I buy pants with pockets sized for carrying, the Sig would fit them as well.

[guido4198]

I second the question. What's happening with your kit?
I've got two kits coming tomorrow, it would be nice to look for any defects.
Thanks
Since you already have two kits coming...I'll recommend that after you have fired a magazine, check the spring/follower relationship. The instructions that come with the kit require that you make sure the last coil on the cpring is in the little "notch" in the follower. I have been unable to keep the spring in the "notch" on the follower as the manufacturer's instructions require. It's in there when I load the mag, NOT in there when the mag is empty. Trying to shoot in that condition ( spring not in the notch) results in failure. I don't imagine the manufacturer's intention was that I have to re-set that spring/"follower notch" relationship everytime I load a magazine. I have sent an inquiry to them ( last week). It was just that...an inquiry, and request for assistance or guidance. Not some kind of rant, demand, etc. Still waiting to hear back from them.
At this point....I'm not terribly upset. I understand that sometimes new products have "issues" and am OK with working through them, IF the manufacturer is responsive and stands behind their product. I only posted my earlier comment in response to a post from someone getting ready to order in an effort to advise that things aren't all rosy with the 6+1 MagGuts 9mm kit and that perhaps folks might want to know how the company addresses problems, BEFORE ordering.
IMHO: the jury is still out. When this has either been resolved, or NOT...I will happily post a full report and let the chips fall where they may...good or bad.
'nuff said for now.

[gb6491]

Since you already have two kits coming...I'll recommend that after you have fired a magazine, check the spring/follower relationship. The instructions that come with the kit require that you make sure the last coil on the cpring is in the little "notch" in the follower. I have been unable to keep the spring in the "notch" on the follower as the manufacturer's instructions require. It's in there when I load the mag, NOT in there when the mag is empty. Trying to shoot in that condition ( spring not in the notch) results in failure. I don't imagine the manufacturer's intention was that I have to re-set that spring/"follower notch" relationship everytime I load a magazine. I have sent an inquiry to them ( last week). It was just that...an inquiry, and request for assistance or guidance. Not some kind of rant, demand, etc. Still waiting to hear back from them.
At this point....I'm not terribly upset. I understand that sometimes new products have "issues" and am OK with working through them, IF the manufacturer is responsive and stands behind their product. I only posted my earlier comment in response to a post from someone getting ready to order in an effort to advise that things aren't all rosy with the 6+1 MagGuts 9mm kit and that perhaps folks might want to know how the company addresses problems, BEFORE ordering.
IMHO: the jury is still out. When this has either been resolved, or NOT...I will happily post a full report and let the chips fall where they may...good or bad.
'nuff said for now.
That's not good.

So as not to steer this thread to far off topic, I've quoted your post and replied with some photos in one of the Maggut threads: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?32971-Mag-Guts-for-9mm-is-here!/page6 (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?32971-Mag-Guts-for-9mm-is-here!/page6)

Regards,
Greg

[guido4198]

Greg, and All..
I'm posting my full report on the result of the MagGuts project in my 6 rd CM9 that I referred to earlier, over on the Mag-Guts-for-9mm thread.
If you don't wish to read it all...please accept this summary:
Problem solve. MagGuts did everything (almost) as good as anyone could expect. I'm pleased and keeping MagGuts spring kits in the Kahr magazine(s) I bet my life on.

[King Rat]

That’s why I test fired one at a rental range first. I like my kahr, carried it for years in California. After 700+ flawless rounds through the Sig the kahr stays in the box. Might take it to the range for a comparison, but it does nothing that the Sig doesn’t do better. A PM9 would pocket carry better than the Sig, but by the time I buy pants with pockets sized for carrying, the Sig would fit them as well.

Interesting. And again a group of us, 5 to be exact shot the 365 and did not find anything remarkable about the gun. In fact since shooting the gun, all of us have purchased other Micro 9mm. (We like shooting them). I actually purchased three more and one of them was another Kahr CM9. One lady did purchase the 365 but dumped it after 2,000 because of too many failures. Ok, so moving on. The Sig 365 shoots very similar to the Ruger LC9s albeit a tad less recoil, not much and a tad less muzzle flip. The Kahr CM9 has it beat in muzzle flip for sure.
But if Ruger does come out with a Double stack based on the LC9S then I think that will really hurt the Sig 365 sales. Now if you like a LIGHT striker fired trigger, then the LC9S is the way to go. Actually too light for me. Sig sales are already falling. Now down to $429 and used one's coming more prevalent. The Hellcat is from all accounts a much better gun, although I have yet to test it. But no where near the problems of the 365 which seem to never end.
While I would have no intention of purchasing a LC9S with 12 rds, (Like the gun, not the trigger) I am enjoying just sitting back and watching how this fad plays out. Buckle up your seat belt boys and Girls, it is going to be a very bumpy road in the coming year.

[DavidR]

I think the fad plays out with high capacity micro compacts eventually dominating the 9mm concealed carry market. It’s taken longer than I expected for another manufacturer to follow Sig Sauer but Springfield finally has. We’ll see who’s next.

[Covert Kahr]

Interesting. And again a group of us, 5 to be exact shot the 365 and did not find anything remarkable about the gun. In fact since shooting the gun, all of us have purchased other Micro 9mm. (We like shooting them). I actually purchased three more and one of them was another Kahr CM9. One lady did purchase the 365 but dumped it after 2,000 because of too many failures. Ok, so moving on. The Sig 365 shoots very similar to the Ruger LC9s albeit a tad less recoil, not much and a tad less muzzle flip. The Kahr CM9 has it beat in muzzle flip for sure.
But if Ruger does come out with a Double stack based on the LC9S then I think that will really hurt the Sig 365 sales. Now if you like a LIGHT striker fired trigger, then the LC9S is the way to go. Actually too light for me. Sig sales are already falling. Now down to $429 and used one's coming more prevalent. The Hellcat is from all accounts a much better gun, although I have yet to test it. But no where near the problems of the 365 which seem to never end.
While I would have no intention of purchasing a LC9S with 12 rds, (Like the gun, not the trigger) I am enjoying just sitting back and watching how this fad plays out. Buckle up your seat belt boys and Girls, it is going to be a very bumpy road in the coming year.

Congratulations on finding a gun you like! Based on your vitriol for the P365, I think you’re still jealous, but you can’t admit that yet. Just think, if the Sig comes down to the CM9 price level then there’s a gun with better everything for the same price.

Hellcat may be better in some ways than the 365, may not. Either way, it’s about the same size as a pm9, with 71% more bullets in a single mag. Only reason to buy a pm9 now is nostalgia. Welcome to the dark side.

[berettabone]

Congratulations on finding a gun you like! Based on your vitriol for the P365, I think you’re still jealous, but you can’t admit that yet. Just think, if the Sig comes down to the CM9 price level then there’s a gun with better everything for the same price.

Hellcat may be better in some ways than the 365, may not. Either way, it’s about the same size as a pm9, with 71% more bullets in a single mag. Only reason to buy a pm9 now is nostalgia. Welcome to the dark side. Hillary lost...………………………………………………….

[Covert Kahr]

Hillary lost...………………………………………………….

Amen!

Also, Epstein didn’t kill him self.

[berettabone]

Interesting. And again a group of us, 5 to be exact shot the 365 and did not find anything remarkable about the gun. In fact since shooting the gun, all of us have purchased other Micro 9mm. (We like shooting them). I actually purchased three more and one of them was another Kahr CM9. One lady did purchase the 365 but dumped it after 2,000 because of too many failures. Ok, so moving on. The Sig 365 shoots very similar to the Ruger LC9s albeit a tad less recoil, not much and a tad less muzzle flip. The Kahr CM9 has it beat in muzzle flip for sure.
But if Ruger does come out with a Double stack based on the LC9S then I think that will really hurt the Sig 365 sales. Now if you like a LIGHT striker fired trigger, then the LC9S is the way to go. Actually too light for me. Sig sales are already falling. Now down to $429 and used one's coming more prevalent. The Hellcat is from all accounts a much better gun, although I have yet to test it. But no where near the problems of the 365 which seem to never end.
While I would have no intention of purchasing a LC9S with 12 rds, (Like the gun, not the trigger) I am enjoying just sitting back and watching how this fad plays out. Buckle up your seat belt boys and Girls, it is going to be a very bumpy road in the coming year. You give an honest assessment and your jealous. The 365 laughfest continues...………………...

[Covert Kahr]

You give an honest assessment and your jealous. The 365 laughfest continues...………………...


Not laughing, just smiling as I swap a 10 round mag for a 15. That’s 3 kahr magazines all in 1.

[guido4198]

I'm also following the latest trend ( "fad"..?) with interest. The Sig P365 represents the latest evolution in CCW offerings and most definitely caught a lot of the industry flat-footed. There will be others. Springfield's "Hellcat" is their response... and I suspect there will be more. They ALL interest me as a lifelong firearms enthusiast and I look forward to seeing what's next. The recognition by so many states over the last few years that Americans have a Constitutional right to defend themselves has REALLY turned on the creative talents of the firearms industry to build the ultimate carry weapon and I'm enjoying it.
I'm still carrying my CM9 with an MCarbo spring kit in the gun and MagGuts in the magazine for 7+1 carry without extending the butt of the gun.
It will do while the industry sorts out the next generation of carry guns.

[berettabone]

Not laughing, just smiling as I swap a 10 round mag for a 15. That’s 3 kahr magazines all in 1. I guess you just never know when you're going to run in to that crowd, late at night, while you're taking out the garbage. Or, you're kidnapped and shanghaied overseas to Syria, where the fighting is fierce. Or, you're attacked by a crazed elephant who has escaped from the local zoo. You just never know. Sorry, my bad.

[Covert Kahr]

I guess you just never know when you're going to run in to that crowd, late at night, while you're taking out the garbage. Or, you're kidnapped and shanghaied overseas to Syria, where the fighting is fierce. Or, you're attacked by a crazed elephant who has escaped from the local zoo. You just never know. Sorry, my bad.

Carry what you want, I’m not listed as a beneficiary in your will. Just find a better way to express your feelings of frustration with kahr handcuffing you to 6 rounds.

[berettabone]

Carry what you want, I’m not listed as a beneficiary in your will. Just find a better way to express your feelings of frustration with kahr handcuffing you to 6 rounds. You'd just get bills anyway.
I'm not handcuffed at all. I DO carry what I want. The reason I'm not handcuffed is because I carry an HK or an SP101. I don't own a Kahr at this time. Sorry to disappoint. I have NO frustration with Kahr at all, and didn't when I owned one. Just think, my SP101 only carries 5 rds. I must be as good as gone. I also choose to carry less anemic rds. myself. I guess you have to carry more rounds when they're on the weak side. Please, no cards or letters. You can find many others to argue calibers. I don't waste my time.

[DavidR]

I see another locked thread in the future.

[Bawanna]

Very soon........there seems to be a few common denominators here, perhaps some therapy or medication is in order.