The curse of the guide rod...

[kahrbrian]

Anyone else have trouble reassembling their ST 9 or similar? The guide rod just WON'T go back in. I've sanded the end of the rod, lubed it well, but the thing won't go. Maybe I'll have to send it back to Kahr for re-assembly each time I clean it. LOL.

[Old No7]

In my experience, it's usually the front end of the recoil spring that's the culprit... And not the rod itself.

Let's see if I can explain...

Most recoil springs have the last two winds wound tightly and close on one end (resulting in an even, finished coil) -- and that end usually goes on the rod first; the other (front) end of the spring will typically have an open coil at the end, without the wound coils as on the other. On my Kahrs, if that end of the open coil is in the wrong position (think of a clock with 6 & 12 being lined up with the barrel) then it gets in the way of the rod. Sometimes if you look close (most of us don't look there when we do the assembly) you can see the tip of the spring coming out the dust cover or blocking it enough to stop the rod.

Try assembling it with the open coil at the 6 o'clock position and if not, then try it 12:00, at 3:00 or at 9:00; one of those "clock" positions is bound to be easier than the others.

Hope this helps. Let us know if this works for you.

Old No7

[kahrbrian]

I ended up doing more work
on the front of the guide rod to chamfer it. Now I can get it in a tad easier. IMHO Kahr ought to do this at the factory.

[Bawanna]

I'm not familiar with the ST 9 but with regards to Old No 7's post I generally put the open end of the spring towards the barrel, so 6 oclock if the slide it upside down for assembly or 12 oclock if it's right side up.

No issues with the spring trying to poke out the end of the slide.

[JinRC]

From time to time my CW9 recoil spring tries to hang out the front of the slide as I reassemble.
I now anticipate it and adjust the guide rod as I'm assembling, no problem.

[yqtszhj]

I ended up doing more work
on the front of the guide rod to chamfer it. Now I can get it in a tad easier. IMHO Kahr ought to do this at the factory.

The o’clock references above to help me a lot but also to your point about chamfering, my CW45 guide rod is definitely not a squared off blunt shape on the end. It has a little rounding or beveling on the edges. Not a lot but it’s obvious it’s not squared off. I believe the CW9 I had at one time was the same way.

[kjorg]

I'm a new and thoroughly frustrated CT45 owner who cannot reassemble his Recoil Guide Assembly after doing an initial cleaning.

A visual check of the lug into which it is inserted confirms that my Recoil Guide Rod is being blocked by my Recoil Guide Spring, with the Guide Rod angling down into the Spring and leaving a gap above itself. I've set the end point of my Spring to 3, 6, 9 and 12 o'clock (the recommendation of my owner's manual), and the result is the same.

When I e-mailed Kahr, I was given a link to a video I'd seen.

Without the Barrel in place, I can push the Guide Rod an inch and a half beyond the face of the lug, so strength is not the issue.

Is there any other workaround of which you are aware? I'd greatly appreciate it.

I want to love this gun but am nearing an eagerness to sell it.

[gb6491]

kjorg,
Is the end of your guide rod beveled as shown in this photo: https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2014/11/kahr-ct45-barrel.jpg (https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2014/11/kahr-ct45-barrel.jpg) or is squared off?
IMO, being squared off makes installation much more difficult.

Regards,
Greg

[dao]

Also, it helps to use your ring and little finger to not only hold the spring and guide the rod into it's coils while using your thumb and forefinger to push the rod toward the front of the slide. And finally, also use your ring and little finder to pull the foward tip of the guiderod away from the barrel once it's in the lug in order to help the end of it go through the hole in the lug. It's tricky but once you get the hang of using those two fingers for multiple tasks the process goes pretty smoothly.

[Ralph III]

It's the spring guys.


One end of the spring forms a complete circle whereas the other end does not. The tip of the other end just dangles.

*If you insert the guide rod into the frame of the gun (front) with the dangling spring end; it will reassemble with no issues (less meat on that end of the spring). This is the way Kahr depicts the orientation, btw.

*If you insert the guide rod into the frame of the gun (front) with the circular spring end; you may find it impossible to get the rod to go into the hole (too much meat). You can however make it go in by turning the spring/guide rod as you attempt to insert it. There is a certain sweet spot and once you find it, it will go in with no issues.

Ralph

[dao]

No that's not always the issue. With the slide held upside down, when you try to angle the guide rod into the hole in the lug it's a tight squeeze to get the forward end of the rod to go into the hole because the angle is pushing it down against what would be the top edge of the hole if the slide was right side up. With everything assembled the diameter of the hole is only a very small fraction of an inch larger than the diamter of the rod. When the rod is still at an angle during reassembly that difference is even closer. That's why a bevel is needed on the forward end of the rod. This is why I usually find it necessary to pull the forward end of the guiderod away from the barrel while trying to get it into the hole.

[Ralph III]

No that's not always the issue. With the slide held upside down, when you try to angle the guide rod into the hole in the lug it's a tight squeeze to get the forward end of the rod to go into the hole because the angle is pushing it down against what would be the top edge of the hole if the slide was right side up. With everything assembled the diameter of the hole is only a very small fraction of an inch larger than the diamter of the rod. When the rod is still at an angle during reassembly that difference is even closer. That's why a bevel is needed on the forward end of the rod. This is why I usually find it necessary to pull the forward end of the guiderod away from the barrel while trying to get it into the hole.


Hey DAO. It's as Old No 7 stated. It's not the guide rod that is the issue but instead the "circular" spring end. You're supposed to have the circular end of the spring toward the back of the pistol and not the front, as Kahr depicts and states in their instructions HERE (https://www.kahr.com/PDF/kahrmanual.pdf) and as some demonstrate on YouTube. Go to 2.40 minute mark HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U5VOqDpvl0).

The circular spring end causes the guide rod to kick off to one side or another. This can make it nearly impossible to get it into the hole of the slide and irrespective of the angle. You can in fact insert the guide rod without the barrel and you may still find it difficult even though the guide rod is perfectly straight. It's because the circular spring end is kicking the guide rod off to one side and hindering insertion. You can make it work this way by rotating or manipulating the spring but again, this is not the proper orientation according to Kahr instructions. Consequently, I don't think it would ever be necessary to grind the end of the guide rod. It did after all come assembled to you from Kahr.

God Bless,
Ralph

[dao]

The Kahr guide rods that I have which are not captive all have beveled, or chamfered ends. It's not much, just enough to provide the clearance needed to make it past the hole in the spring lug while the rod is still at an angle during re-assembly. And not every one of the non-captive springs I've had on my various Kahrs have an open end on one end of the spring. I do agree that on those that do have an open end, that end goes to the front and you have to be careful of how you orient it in the lug in order to keep it from actually going thru the hole and keeping the rod's end from doing so. But even on those I've found it necessary to lift the rod a bit to help it find its home.
I have not owned every Kahr model, or even every gen/variant of any one model but I have or have had thirteen of them over the years and have had to use this technique on a number of them. I still own eight of them and clean and/or lube them regularly.

[Ralph III]

The Kahr guide rods that I have which are not captive all have beveled, or chamfered ends. It's not much, just enough to provide the clearance needed to make it past the hole in the spring lug while the rod is still at an angle during re-assembly. And not every one of the non-captive springs I've had on my various Kahrs have an open end on one end of the spring. I do agree that on those that do have an open end, that end goes to the front and you have to be careful of how you orient it in the lug in order to keep it from actually going thru the hole and keeping the rod's end from doing so. But even on those I've found it necessary to lift the rod a bit to help it find its home.
I have not owned every Kahr model, or even every gen/variant of any one model but I have or have had thirteen of them over the years and have had to use this technique on a number of them. I still own eight of them and clean and/or lube them regularly.

Hey DAO. The point of my post is so folks do not make unnecessary modifications to their firearms. I think the vast majority that have an issue with re-assembly is simply due to their not orienting the guide rod spring properly. Most Kahrs use a non-captive spring that has both an open and closed end. The instructions show this and state to be sure to orient the spring properly during re-assembly.

I do however see that some of the replacement springs offered on their website has both closed ends. If you notice however, none of the guide rods offered have a beveled end with exception of CW380 and P380's.

Anyhow, if folks are having trouble with reassembly they should first be sure that they are orienting the spring correctly. If it's still difficult then they should attempt to manipulate the spring slightly as you suggest. Otherwise, it may well be necessary to add a slight polished bevel to the very end of the guide rod.

Take care,
Ralph

[dao]

I agree with you Ralph, and I wouldn't suggest anyone do a mod such as that either. But the guiderods that I have on those Kahrs I have or had have without a captive spring have a very slight chamfer on the forward end. It could probably even be called a relief it is so minute. I'd say it's only about 1/32". I even bought one from ssguiderods recently that is beveled on that end. Very slightly.

I also agree with you on orienting the spring correctly, because if it makes it through the hole first the rod is not going there. So, the only thing I was trying to add was that it is also important to orient the rod itself, by pulling it away from the slide and barrel while compressing the spring, so as to get the very tip of it away from the edge of the hole that is closest to the barrel and slide. If you look closely at one of yours assembled guns you will see just how little clearance there is between the circumference of the rod and the hole that it passes through. And that is with the rod resting in parallel with the barrel. When you're trying to fit it thru that hole with it at an angle before it clears the locking lug on the barrel the tolerance there is even tighter.

So, I think we're on the same page. Alignment and placement is important. Small gun. Small tolerances. Tight fit.

[kjorg]

Many thanks for replying, John. My guide rod is beveled like the one in the photo.

I sent in my CT45 to be reassembled. Kahr says there are no issues. Apparently I'm the issue. Now I am regrettably looking to sell.


kjorg,
Is the end of your guide rod beveled as shown in this photo: https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2014/11/kahr-ct45-barrel.jpg (https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2014/11/kahr-ct45-barrel.jpg) or is squared off?
IMO, being squared off makes installation much more difficult.

Regards,
Greg

[kjorg]

Dao, would you be able to offer any tip for preventing the open end of the spring from "going through the hole" of the lug as you say?

Some weeks ago now---days before posting here---I asked for help on Kahr's official reassembly video, and one guy whose native tongue is not English urged me not to let my Recoil Guide go through the hole (being that of the lug) --- or something to this effect. But I didn't understand what he was describing or how I might avoid it. You are urging something similar. Is there any further explanation you could give?

Before sending in my CT45, I tried many an orientation of the open end of the Recoil Spring. I did try lifting my Recoil Guide upwards, but I could not lift it off and away from the Recoil Spring, into which it was driven.

[dao]

I've only always had to spin the open end of the coil around 180º before retrying when it wants to poke out the hole. If memory serves having that end at the top of the lug usually does the trick. If yours keeps escaping it could be that your spring has a kink in it somewhere along its length? Or that you're not keeping tension on it and aligned with the barrel throughout the process of setting the rod?
I also always grab the rod such that my index finger is on the end that will eventually seat against the barrel lug while squeezing the rod and spring between my thumb on one side and my ring and pinkie on the other, in order to make sure the forward end of the rod clears the hole in the lug. When you say upwards I'm assuming that the slide and barrel are underneath the spring and rod. That is the position I keep mine. You only need to lift it away from the barrel by a tiny fraction to clear that hole. Trying to lift it more than that will probably result in you hitting the other side of the hole with the end of the rod. It's a tight squeeze for sure, and very hard to do with a new spring but it does get easier with practice and as the spring sets. Also, using your fingers and thumb helps to make sure the rod feeds correctly into the coils. Keep the rod and spring in alignment with the barrel during the entire process. This helps to keep the forward end of the spring from migrating away from the side of the lug and moving into the hole.
If Kahr had it, they would have experienced any issue that would prevent it from going together so if they didn't it probably does come down to technique and finger strength.
Just be sure to keep it aimed away from anything breakable. I darn near put a window out not too long ago with one of mine. Even with lots of practice over the years and springs that are well set, once in awhile I'll have more trouble than usual getting one back together and have launched one a couple/few times. So don't get discouraged, it can be tough on even the most experienced. It just doesn't happen as often as you develop technique and muscle memory. Also, if you try a couple of times with no success, give your hands a rest before trying again. These are tough little beasts and this process requires fresh hands and fingers.

The Sig Armorer, Robert Burke makes a tool that can be used to seat guide rods, and is reviewed by The Sig Guy. I have one, and also made another for other sized rod ends. Watch this video to see how the tool works. I haven't tried it but once on a Kahr and while it didn't work as easily as it does on a Sig, it has potential. With practice on a Kahr I feel it could be as easy as he shows it on a Sig.

I used a cutoff I had from a cutting board that I used a portion of for something else to make the one I want to use on other makes and models with smaller rod ends.

Start at 7:15 of the video to see the function of the tool I'm speaking of.

Video here

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0ZmHi69EL8)edit: As an aside, the reason this is so tough on a Kahr is because in addition to the strength of the spring, the shortness of the distance between the barrel lug and the slide lug means the angle is steeper with very little tolerance to "adjust" the angle of the rod in order to clear the hole. Once you master this on your CT you could find that doing the same on a smaller Kahr is even harder. Or would be if you didn't learn first on the larger Kahr. It's the nature and a byproduct of making and using very small firearms with stiff springs and tight tolerances.

[Bawanna]

Do I recall a person using a dowel through the hole and into the spring to help guide the guide rod properly into the hole.

Seems like it would work. I've never had an issue myself, so must be a technique?

[dao]

I tried the dowel once but always felt like I needed another hand for it as well as one for the slide and another for the spring/rod. I think you're right Colonel, it is a matter of technique. For both the dowel and the dowel-less methods.

[Burnett]

I finally got time this last Saturday to break down and clean my new K9 and had an awful time getting the stainless guide rod I picked up for it installed. Took a hobby paint brush that was in my gun cleaning box and shoved the handle in the spring to keep it from bowing out and it went right in. I didn't need a third hand for the brush as I was holding the slide at a fairly flat angle and just let the guide rod spit the brush out upon compression.

[dao]

Good that you found a method that worked for you Burnett. Kjorg you might want to give this a try.

[kjorg]

Thank you for your thorough input, Dao.

I suppose I'll try again tomorrow night.

"The spring must not go into the hole." That'll be my mantra.

[dao]

You're very welcome kjorg. Remember to wear eye protection. And keep it pointed away from anything breakable. Once you do it a few times, regardless of the method, it will become much easier. And who knows, you may even come up with a new way that will work for others too!

[kjorg]

I still can't get it. It's for sale in Kahr Firearms for Sale.

Though I couldn't make use of it, your advice has been greatly appreciated.

[dao]

Sorry it didn't work for you. GLWS!

[IDisposable]

I still can't get it. It's for sale in Kahr Firearms for Sale.

Pick me! Where about would it be shipping from?

[kjorg]

Pick me! Where about would it be shipping from?

Sorry for the late reply. I didnt' see your post but did have a confirmed buyer at the time.

He backed out for an understandble reason, and I was able to reassemble my CT45 today, on my second attempt, having done nothing differently than any other time before.

[dao]

Take it apart and put it together again. Quick before it changes its mind! :D

[tokuno]

. . . Remember to wear eye protection. And keep it pointed away from anything breakable.

Reminds me of the first time re-assembling a Kimber 1911: was resigned to buying a new spring, but re-calculated angles off the cabinet, and found it perched on a ledge deep down the backside of my workbench.

[dao]

BTW kjorg, something occurred to me that might help you repeat your success on a regular basis, enabling you to keep your gun and enjoy it.

If you have a bench grinder you could relieve a very small amount of material around the radius of the forward end of your guide rod. And I do mean a very small amount, to extend the chamfer both inward toward the rod's center and rearward by 1/32" or so. This would make it easier to achieve the angle needed to allow the end to slip into the hole in the front of the dustcover as you compress the spring and try to seat the rid into the barrel lug. You just need to verify that at rest there is still enough material present behind the chamfer to keep the guiderod centered in the hole when the gun is fully in battery. It's not a risky experiment because guide rods are neither rare nor expensive so if you take a bit too much off the first time you can easily replace the guide rod.

Just be sure to smooth out and/or polish the new chamfer as much as you can after cutting it. Take it slow on the wheel to avoid taking too much material off and to prevent it from overheating. You're only looking to take a very, very thin slice of the metal away.

[kjorg]

Take it apart and put it together again. Quick before it changes its mind! :D

I don't have the courage.

[kjorg]

BTW kjorg, something occurred to me that might help you repeat your success on a regular basis, enabling you to keep your gun and enjoy it.

If you have a bench grinder you could relieve a very small amount of material around the radius of the forward end of your guide rod. And I do mean a very small amount, to extend the chamfer both inward toward the rod's center and rearward by 1/32" or so. This would make it easier to achieve the angle needed to allow the end to slip into the hole in the front of the dustcover as you compress the spring and try to seat the rid into the barrel lug. You just need to verify that at rest there is still enough material present behind the chamfer to keep the guiderod centered in the hole when the gun is fully in battery. It's not a risky experiment because guide rods are neither rare nor expensive so if you take a bit too much off the first time you can easily replace the guide rod.

Just be sure to smooth out and/or polish the new chamfer as much as you can after cutting it. Take it slow on the wheel to avoid taking too much material off and to prevent it from overheating. You're only looking to take a very, very thin slice of the metal away.

Dao, I appreciate the concern you've paid to my situation and the time it took to write up this latest post. I understand your directions and how extending the chamfer might help. But I don't have a bench grinder. I never learned much about tools.

[dao]

Well, your welcome. :o

[fsilber]

I'm not saying it was easy, but with my 23 year-old P9 and CT9 I could get the slide assembly reassembled with only a little fiddling.

When I bought a TP9-2 I struggled and struggled to get the recoil guide rod and spring back into the slide assembly.
I compared its guide rod to that on my CT9, and it was a tiny bit longer. Using the CT9 guide rod reassembly was much easier.
Both were already chamfered at the tip.

I ordered two new guide rods from Kahr -- a standard carbon-steel guide rod for the CT9/TP9/ST9 and a stainless steel guide rood intended for the all-steel T9.
The carbon steel rod they sent me matched that of my CT9, and it worked fine.

I'm wondering whether Kahr got a batch of guide rods that were too long and out-of-spec.

(The smooth stainless steel TP9 guide rod was squared off at the end; I suppose the chamfering on the T9 is done inside the slide.
I used a file and hand chamfered that stainless steel T9 guide rod, and it then worked in my CT9 and TP9-2. I'm thinking that with the smooth, shiny stainless steel guide rod the pistol will feel a bit smoother when racking it. Maybe it will even be a bit more reliable due to a little less friction in the slide motion.)

[dao]

Necessity. The Mother of Invention. Don't forget to smooth it out. So that it doesn't chew up the inside of the spring pocket on your slide.

[BirdsThaWord]

Take it apart and put it together again. Quick before it changes its mind! :D
Just read... Now that made me chuckle! 😂😂😂

[BirdsThaWord]

Reminds me of the first time re-assembling a Kimber 1911: was resigned to buying a new spring, but re-calculated angles off the cabinet, and found it perched on a ledge deep down the backside of my workbench.
Reminds me of a Beretta 92FS... There is a little cap under the grip, held in by a pin through the frame, that captures the mainspring. I was removing it as it had a lanyard loop and wanted to install a flat one. Once I tapped out the retaining pin I started to back out my punch and POW!!! That lanyard cap came out like a rocket and punched me right in the kisser. Gave me a fat/busted lip. Then had to search all over for that cap and the mainspring. Learned a few lessons that day. 😁

[dao]

^^^and a few new words too I'd wager. :D

[Bawanna]

Dao, I appreciate the concern you've paid to my situation and the time it took to write up this latest post. I understand your directions and how extending the chamfer might help. But I don't have a bench grinder. I never learned much about tools.

A decent file and a little care would get the job done just fine and dandy too. I generally opt for hand tools over power tools, I've found you can screw things up 10x faster with power tools.