PM9 slide won't come back enough to lock

[Carman]

I have a PM9 who slide won't come back far enough where I can engage the slide stop. I would appreciate any guidance I could get on this situation. Thank you

[gb6491]

I have a PM9 who slide won't come back far enough where I can engage the slide stop. I would appreciate any guidance I could get on this situation. Thank you
Welcome to the forums:)

Can you remove the slide on your PM9?
If so, check that the large recoil spring is installed properly (the end that fits more tightly on the guide rod should be away from the muzzle end).
https://i.postimg.cc/vHbG9yq5/pm9recoilspringassy.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
Check that the end of the guide rod seats easily into the frame.
https://i.postimg.cc/vTGC1YYB/seat.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
When seated correctly and the upper reinstalled, the recoil spring assy. should be flush with the front of the slide
https://i.postimg.cc/26WBqYHP/flush.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

On the chance that the slide stop is not functioning correctly, check the slide stop spring for damage
https://i.postimg.cc/NfFBbDt0/spring.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Some folks have installed the slide stop ahead of the barrel lug, but this will lock up the slide a considerable amount.

Regards,
Greg

[Carman]

My slide will come off. My large recoil spring is positioned correctly. The guide rod slips easily into the frame . The Recoil spring assembly fits flush at the front of the slide. Slide stop spring looks to be okay. It functions when I have the slide off and the stop in the frame. I can't draw slide back far enough to get to stop lever. Your picture of the spring assembly sitting down in the frame confuses me. Doesn't it go to the barrel. I'm going through the lug on the barrel with the slide stop. I don't have the slide locking up except it stopped short of reaching position to engage the lock. Thank you for putting up with me this my first time on here and I don't know how to use all this system. I really appreciate the expertise on the subject thank you.

[Carman]

After seeing your picture of the recoil spring assembly seating in the frame I look that over it's it's they're good I was able to look and see it and going from the barrel lug to the frame. I was worried about the spring simply being too long but with the barrel and slide lock out I was able to compress the spring far enough for the slide to come back far enough to engage the lock. With the Barrel in and the spring I was also able to slide it back to where the lock with engage if it were installed. When I put the lock assembly back in it will not come back that last three sixteenths of an inch approximately.

[gb6491]

After seeing your picture of the recoil spring assembly seating in the frame I look that over it's it's they're good I was able to look and see it and going from the barrel lug to the frame. I was worried about the spring simply being too long but with the barrel and slide lock out I was able to compress the spring far enough for the slide to come back far enough to engage the lock. With the Barrel in and the spring I was also able to slide it back to where the lock with engage if it were installed. When I put the lock assembly back in it will not come back that last three sixteenths of an inch approximately. Do you by chance, have an older PM9? If so, have you changed the recoil spring? I ask because the newer guns have a slightly longer upper. The recoil spring is also longer. The spring I posted photos of is for the older "blunt nose" guns. You can count the coils on it for comparison to your spring.
https://i.postimg.cc/zvhwdLXF/diff.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
Regards,
Greg

[dao]

Good point Greg. I just pulled apart my older, blunt nose PM9. If I lay the spring flat on the table and turn the forward end of the spring up, such that the pointy end of the front of the spring is facing up, and I count that pointy end as coil one, there are 13 coils to the closed rear of my spring. I would imagine if I put a newer spring in there with more coils I would have trouble pulling the slide back all the way, if it was even doable, and in fact might end up with the same problem that the OP is facing.

[Carman]

Yes I have an older model. I did count the coils and they match on the spring. I left my Barrel out of the slide put my spring in the frame to the slide and was able to slide it back enough reach where it needed to be to engage the lock. So the spring assembly compressed enough. I also put the barrel and spring assembly in the slide on to the frame and was able to pull it back enough where the slide stop would engage if it were installed. When I installed the slide stop I cannot slide it back far enough to engage it in the slide. I want to thank you again for your advice. And please excuse my terminology sometimes.

[dao]

What is the count of the coils of your spring in the way I described it Carman. I think Greg and I are wondering if you have a newer spring (with more coils), in your older PM9.

[Carman]

I went through things again. I was incorrect on my Spring assembly compressing enough to reach where I could engage the slide lock. I had the barrel out of the equation and the slide stop out of the frame trying only to compress the spring assembly, it would not go back far enough if I had the slide stop installed for it to engage. I believe my coil count is correct. Is it possible the whole assembly is incorrect.

[dao]

I'll have to leave that to someone more knowledgeable (which won't be hard to do). I don't know if the barrels and guiderods are of different lengths between the generations, or not.

[gb6491]

Carman,
What's the history of this PM9? Has this always been an issue?
In the meantime, can you compress the smaller spring of the recoil assembly? With mine I can compress it until the flange on the guide rod and the flange on the tube meet.
Regards,
Greg

[Carman]

I am the original owner of the gun. I had it maybe a year before I then lend it to a friend in need. He passed lately and it was returned to me. It was kind of freaky when I saw your picture GB 64091. I had to zoom in to make sure it wasn't him. Same initials also. He was the kind who would have messed with a gun some. It's possible Parts have been changed out I'm not aware of. I appreciate your all's help. I can compressed the captured spring till the flanges meet

[gb6491]

Hmm.....according to Kahr, the type 1 and 2 recoil spring assembles for the blunt PM9 guns have plunger head sizes of 3/8" (type 1) and 1/2" (type 2). Mine has the 1/2" size. I do not know what size the plunger head is for the type 3 assembly used on the newer guns. If it's larger perhaps it would cause some interference in older guns. You might give yours a measure.
https://i.postimg.cc/htDkjTCQ/pm9recoilspringassy-copy.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Sorry to read of your friend's passing, you have my condolences.

Regards,
Greg

[Carman]

Thank you Greg. My plunger end measures 3/8 of an inch. Is there specs anywhere on the captured spring unit that would tell me it's length

[gb6491]

Thank you Greg. My plunger end measures 3/8 of an inch. Is there specs anywhere on the captured spring unit that would tell me it's length
In regards to length specs...I don't know of any. We've been counting coils on the forum.

Any chance you could post some photos of your components? Maybe we are missing something in the discussion.

You don't have enough posts to use the attachment function, but you can upload photos to an off site host then post them here. I always use this free one: https://postimg.cc
Once you upload photos there, they provide links with the proper code (use the "Hotlink for forums:" link).

Regards,
Greg

[Carman]

I'm not very good on a computer. Don't know if I could get pictures to you. I might try. Your pictures and my gun look a denticle. I was wondering about the length of the inner spring assembly in The Recoil spring assembly from plunger to Rod tip. And also the length of the capture canister. I hope you understand what I'm talkin about. I'm not sure about the terminology.

[Bawanna]

I been kicking this around in my head all day, didn't want to interject without having something to add. Not sure I have anything to add now except 1. I just don't get it.
In my small mind the only thing that could cause this is the outer spring completely compressing before you get to the slide lock notch. So everything else being the same your friend may he rest in peace apparently never locked the slide back?
Were it mine knowing that the recoil spring is relatively cheap, I'd cut off about half a coil. Orient the outer so the end of the spring is up towards the barrel when installed and see if that gets you there or closer.
I would then shoot it to make sure everything is cycling and working properly. I'd order a new outer spring, making sure its for the old style or a whole new unit with the larger 1/2'' head which supposedly was an improvement, don't fully understand the advantage to that either other than keeping it lined up a bit better.

I shall continue to ponder slowly. Too fast and I get the brain pain ya know?

[Carman]

I believe we are down to Something in the recoil spring assembly. I was considering the same thing about the outside spring. I think I will try that. Bawana, I was reading your post from back in 2009 a couple weeks ago when I decided to join this forum. You seem like a very knowledgeable guy from reading your post. That was very happy Greg responded he's been a great help and been right on with everything helping me. Thanks guys

[dao]

A thought just occurred to me. Carman is there any peening or other malformation in your barrel where the slide lock pin fits into it? Or just in front of that? Anything that might prevent the barrel from rising all the way up during cycling? If so this could prevent the slide from moving all the way rearward.

Also, while I was looking for a picture of the barrel so that I didn't have to field strip mine again to check this, to see if what I asked about above was possible I came across something interesting. But first, I ended up taking my gun apart again anyway since I couldn't find a picture of the barrel anywhere. And in looking closely at my barrel I could see that because the bottom of the barrel lug is very thin it could become malformed right in front of where the pin slides through it. If this were to happen I doubt the slide could be moved all the way rearward. At least not easily. You should check yours out. And maybe insert your pin there with both out of the gun, and ensure the pin moves freely through all parts of that hole in the barrel lug.

The thing that I found while looking for a picture was an undated letter from Kahr to distributors concerning PM9 pistols in two very early serial number ranges, shipped before March 15, 2004. They advised distributors not to ship them to dealers, or if they had to provide the dealers' information to Kahr so that they could contact them and get the barrels back. I purchased my Kahr in June of '03, and it is within one of the serial number ranges, so I'll need to call them. Here' the link to that letter (https://www.rsrgroup.com/file-manager/file?file=5697db1bebbee.pdf).

[Bawanna]

I believe we are down to Something in the recoil spring assembly. I was considering the same thing about the outside spring. I think I will try that. Bawana, I was reading your post from back in 2009 a couple weeks ago when I decided to join this forum. You seem like a very knowledgeable guy from reading your post. That was very happy Greg responded he's been a great help and been right on with everything helping me. Thanks guys

Greg is the knowledgeable guy, I'm just a poser and his apprentice. He's bailed me out on numerous occasions. My wife wants to get a restraining order against him cause he plants seeds of gun desire in my head but I won't allow it. Don't figure gun desire is a bad thing.

[Carman]

Wow you all are great. Dao, thanks for all your effort disassembling your gun and looking up stuff for me. I went to your link and my gun was in the first series on the recall for the barrel problem. My Barrel on the chamber section has what looks like pitting in the top and the right hand side I assumed was caused bye lack of lubricant and metal dragging each other. I checked out my Barrel lug and stop pin, and all seems well there. I think it's time to call Kahr Arms about that recall. Thanks everybody.

[Carman]

Yes bawana Greg is great, but you for sure are no POSER

[Carman]

Hey Dao, or anyone else with an opinion on it. Since the recall on the barrel of my PM9 was when it was new, not released from the Dealer's yet and only involved the barrel, do you think with that after a lot of use that other parts maybe damage to like the slide

[dao]

Since we don't know what Kahr's actual concerns were for these barrels we can't be sure what long term use would result in. I don't shoot my PM9 much and never really have but in the few hundred rounds I have through it I've never experienced any type of malfunction with it. Kahr may just tell me that given that experience they have no concerns about my particular barrel. Then again they may tell me to send it in for inspection and possible repair or replacement.
Were I you, since you're the original owner which I believe means you are entitled to a lifetime warranty, when you call them about the recall you should also tell them about the trouble or inability to draw the slide all the way back. If anyone has seen that type of issue before it would be them. In your case they may just ask you to send the entire gun back to them and they'll look at both issues at that time.

[dao]

Update: So I just got off the phone with Kahr technical support. They researched the letter while I was on the phone and told me that the recall had to do with some of the PMs having trouble reliably feeding one particular brand of ammo. He could not now determine what brand that was. And that it was not a safety issue. They gave me the option of sending the entire gun back for a barrel swap, or just continuing on with it and recontacting them if I had an issue in the future.
Given that I've never had an a single malfunction with the gun since I bought it new in June of '03, and that there was no safety issue involved I opted not to send it in.

[Bawanna]

Good plan. Don't fix what ain't broken but it's comforting to know there was no safety issue involved.

[Carman]

I also today contacted Kahr Arms about my PM9 we've been discussing. I got the same customer service rep that Dao did because he referred to his call. I opted out of the barrel replacement since I've had no problem with feed of ammunition. We talked about my slide problem and he suggested I send it in.. we did discuss the recoil spring assembly.

[dao]

If your PM9 was mine Carman I'd consider sending it in. They may even pay for shipping, but that's just a guess. Or you could buy a new set of springs for it, making sure you have the ones for the older guns and see if that fixes the issue.

[Carman]

I'm considering sending it in. Also I'm thinking about trimming the spring-like suggested. Or ordering the Recoil spring assembly and trying that. I do feel it would be good for to go and let them look it over. I'm just thinking about the situation now getting your all's advice. I am excited about using my gun again. I was frustrated with it and it's been put away since I got it back from my friend.

[dustnchips]

Could someone give him coil counts on the old and new style springs?

[gb6491]

Could someone give him coil counts on the old and new style springs?
I posted a photo of my recoil assembly from my blunt nose PM9 early on in the thread and dao gave him a coil count from his blunt nose PM9. Based on that, the coil count seems to be from 12 to 13 for the old style spring,
After dao and I posted, the OP wrote "I believe my coil count is correct."

I was hoping some photos of the OP's gun and it's parts would be posted.

Regards,
Greg

[dao]

Probably not a good idea to cut the current springs if there's a chance you may send it in. If you do decide to send it in it would be best to do so with the gun put together as it is exhibiting the issue. Plus, they may be able to determine if the spring in it now is appropriate for the gun, or if it was actually made for a newer model. Given that these 9mm wonder guns have so much going on it such a short space they are susceptible to tuning issues, as are all micro 9's for the most part. Something a little off can result in failures in one of more ways.
After some thoughts on this I think that if it were mine I'd first order new springs and try them. If that doesn't fix things then put the old springs back in the gun and send it in. Also, did you put the slide lock pin through the barrel lock and see if it moves freely from front to back? If there's any resistance at all, getting Kahr to replace the barrel through that recall might be just the ticket!

[Carman]

Yes,Dao I agree it would be best to send it into them unaltered by me. I would be embarrassed to start trimming Springs and it not work and have to send it to them anyway. I have tried the slide lock pin through the barrel lug and it's smooth action there. My coil count on the spring is correct. I put I believe correct cuz I find that can always make mistakes. If I send it in I think I'll go 0n and change the barrel because of the pitting on the Barrel Hood

[Ed M]

I've been watching this thread since the beginning, and I believe I can help you Carman. I'm pretty sure this is what will fix your problem.

https://www.gunsprings.com/KAHR%20ARMS/cID1/mID29/dID340

You need part # 52818. It's a whopping $8.99, and includes the correct outer recoil spring, inner recoil spring, and striker spring. You'll only need the outer recoil spring (for now).

This is gonna be a pretty long post, so I spared you having to read through "PM9 recoil assembly 101".

I too have a blunt nose PM9, and some years back, I decided it was time to replace the recoil assembly - henceforth called RSA. The first time I did it, I had my local gun shop order one for me. It fit and worked fine. Next time, I did it myself.

After much research, this is what I learned.

I bought a new RSA from Kahr, and it did exactly what your PM9 is doing. Called Wolff Gun Springs, Kahr, and looked WAY back here to some of Jocko's posts.

Here we go :

There are 3 different RSA's used in the PM9 over it's production lifespan.

16483

The Type 1 RSA has a 3/8" rear flange, and a 13 turn spring.
The Type 2 RSA has a 1/2" flange, and a 13 turn spring.
The Type 3 RSA has a 1/2" rear flange and a 15 turn spring.

My PM9 takes a Type 2 RSA. I ordered it from Kahr, and they sent me a Type 3 RSA. Installing this in my PM9 resulted in exactly what you experienced. I couldn't pull the slide back far enough for it to lock back. Everything else seemed normal.

This is when I called Wolff. They're pretty close to where I live, and I was prepared to drive down to show them my PM9.

The 15 turn outer recoil spring just wouldn't compress far enough to "fit" in the space necessary. I needed the 13 turn outer spring from Wolff. They don't sell the 15 turn spring by itself - you gotta get the whole RSA from Kahr for that. Probably a deal between Kahr and Wolff, as Wolff makes all of Kahr's springs for them.

The outer recoil spring seems to wear out MUCH sooner than the inner recoil spring. Just changing the outer spring will work fine for a few changes. Wolff includes an inner spring with their kit, and you CAN take the RSA apart to change the inner spring, but it's a PITA. I just replace the whole RSA at that point.

My regimen is a new outer recoil spring every 2500 rounds, and a whole new RSA at 5000 rounds. Probably overkill, but I rely on that gun with my life...,

Hope this helps - I'm betting it will.

[dao]

Great post Ed, thank you!

[Carman]

Thanks for your input Ed. I have a RSA type 1 with 3/8 inch flange and 13 coil spring.

[Carman]

Just got off the phone with wolf Springs. Says they're closed but it is our normal business hour. Will follow up an order set, thanks Ed for your input and your links

[Ed M]

Sounds good.

At the very least, you'll have an extra set of springs for your PM9.

That's one of the good things about owning an older blunt nose PM9. You can buy the spring kit for cheap, as opposed to buying a whole new RSA from Kahr for thirty some bucks.

We're good in the future too, as we can always buy the new RSA (Type 3) and cut the outer spring down to 13 turns.

I don't usually recommend that though, as those springs are a real bear to cut, and then the cut end has to be dressed up so it doesn't chew up the inside of the slide lug.

For $8.99, it's much easier to just buy the kit from Wolff.

They might have been out to lunch when you called. I'd try again...

[gb6491]

Carman, I was looking back at some of the combinations of barrel/recoil spring assembly/slide stop you tried and got to wondering if you are lubing the underside of the slide where the barrel hood comes into contact with the slide (in particular where the corners contact)?
https://i.postimg.cc/W1GLxnpy/sb865-copy.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/T3ffdSsx/bh2-copy.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
Regards,
Greg

[Carman]

The area you show on the barrel Hood or two areas on the top toward the front and on the side near the corner is the area I have what I've called pitting it looks like pitting in blued steel from rust after you've cleaned it up. I thought it might be from lack of lube and in the areas you shown. I have lubed this area well actually I polished the barrel, the hood and the inside of the slide. Even with the barrel out I'm unable with spring in to pull it back far enough to engage slide lock.

[Carman]

I've taken my PM9 apart again, while trying things I had the slide and spring assembly and inserted the spring assembly into the area where it engages in the slide. As I was compressing the spring into this area the spring seem to grab somewhat on the slide as it compressed into the hole the farther I went the worse it got. I'm wondering if my spring coil it's too large diameter or misshapen. When I insert just the outer core by itself it is a tight fit getting it into the slide, and when I compress it the coils tend to grab the edge as its compressing in there. I believe we found the problem.

[Carman]

I just put a micrometer to the spring, the end that goes on the assembly first is.409 ths. And the other end is .4 1 9 thousands. I think this spring somehow has been misshapen. I'm not saying it's factory done, possibly through mishandling or abuse,

[gb6491]

I just put a micrometer to the spring, the end that goes on the assembly first is.409 ths. And the other end is .4 1 9 thousands. I think this spring somehow has been misshapen. I'm not saying it's factory done, possibly through mishandling or abuse,
https://i.postimg.cc/4N50sXFQ/2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/RNWdTxmW)
https://i.postimg.cc/VvzFVC1Q/3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/RFdtqbry/4.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/cCmGpwnQ/1-copy.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/CxZLqr8X/8.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/ZRjhg636/6.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[gb6491]

The area you show on the barrel Hood or two areas on the top toward the front and on the side near the corner is the area I have what I've called pitting it looks like pitting in blued steel from rust after you've cleaned it up. I thought it might be from lack of lube and in the areas you shown. I have lubed this area well actually I polished the barrel, the hood and the inside of the slide. Even with the barrel out I'm unable with spring in to pull it back far enough to engage slide lock.
The barrels are nickle plated. What you are seeing might be some of that flaking off.

[Carman]

Thank you Greg for all you do. Your your advice and your pictures help me greatly. Sorry I haven't responded lately, been down with the flu. I got my spring set ordered. I'm your latest picture of the slide upside down, wear your blue arrow crosses the edge of the slide, it's where my spring is grabbing on both sides, not on the cut out in the bottom part. I think my spring is out of round slightly. I guess the new spring will tell the tale. Thanks again, we will update when spring comes in maybe today.

[Carman]

My spring said has arrived. I have installed the outer spring. I can lock my slide back, yeehaw! You all are great thank you for all the help. Greg, Dao,Bawanna and Ed your Insight, pictures,links and advise is what got my to here. Thank you thank you thank you.

[dao]

Hey that's great that it worked out Carman, especially for such a small price. Congrats!

So tell us, how do the two springs compare in looks, coil count, and feel?

[Carman]

The difference in the two Springs is amazing. The Old Spring is shorter. The old Springs also a lot bigger around. It was a tight fit into the slide. The new one goes into the slide very easily. The Old Spring I feel was out of round so as it was compressed it was grabbing the sides of the pocket in the slide that fits in. The coil count was the same. 13

[Bawanna]

Happy ending. The old spring being shorter is normal and expected. The new one will be shorter once it takes it's set.
Your old one must have got squished or hit somewhere along the line.
I love happy endings.

[Ed M]

So glad things worked out for you, Carman.

People really trying to help others is what sets this forum apart from other gun forums.

Remember the help you got here, and pass it on to help someone else in the future.

That's how we roll....:amflag: