Can You Really Prevent Unintentional Discharges?

[King Rat]

I switched to DAO years ago and will not go back to a light trigger. I have shot them so often now that I shoot them better, and love the deliberate, controlled and smooth triggers like the Kahr and a few others and like not just the trigger but the extra layer of protection they offer. I do think that besides the great quality of the Kahr, that a lot of us fans, also appreciate the DAO trigger represented by Kahr. I qet a kick out of many internet posters that will invariably Put down the Kahr and others with comments like "I shot one and it had a horrible trigger, or the gun sucked, it had a long heavy pull" etc. Personally when I hear comments like these, I have to wonder how long that poster has actually been shooting firearms. Most would not know a good DAO if you hit them over the head with one. They seemed to be fueled by internet propaganda that feeds lighter and lighter triggers and shorter resets. It seems that they are slowly turning EDC guns into Target guns. As one poster say's, the lighter triggers do will do serve their vanities for range shooting, they neither have ever shot a good DAO, nor want to take the time to learn.
I feel a whole thread or sticky could be devoted to the DAO on the Kahr Forum.

Just for starters"

Can You Really Prevent Unintentional Discharges?
https://www.forcescience.org/2004/12/can-you-really-prevent-unintentional-discharges/

[yqtszhj]

I have to admit I really like a good, smooth double action trigger. I like the Sig P250 being DAO but most people probably don’t.

I think the next best thing if one trains enough may be a SA with a thumb safety and a good but not too light trigger. Train to not take the safety off unless you are pointing at the target to shoot then put the safety back on before leaving the target.

I think about all the polymer wonder guns that are basically SA guns with nothing but a “trigger safety” and then folks lightening up the trigger on top of that, then appendix carrying.

[dao]

Need to allow for different tastes by different people. I've had Kahrs for nearly twenty years, and a lot of them. I've also had and still have DA/SA and SA guns. After decades of shooting I've come to the conclusion that I personally shoot SA better than I do DA. Ironically I learned this very shortly after making my handle on this board DOA. Of course that can be attributed to range time, and specifically not enough. Any action can be mastered if even one of them can, barring some sort of physical handicap. In my situation I just find that I do better with SA. That's just me. And I'm willing to accept that others may not be like me.
All that being said I've had some Kahrs that had what can only be described as bad triggers, compared to others I've had and still have. On some of them the primary problem was the trigger bar being very rough, causing the spring to scrape along it rather than sliding over it. I've cleaned some of them up to where they are acceptable, like an S9 that I currently have. But it took a fair amount of sanding and polishing to get it that way, and I doubt it will ever be as butter smooth as my Elites and my blunt nosed PM9. Others have corrected their triggers by needing to clean out the striker channel, and have found considerable junk within it. Kahr does not seem to put as much effort into their quality as they once did. That could be complacency now that they're established, or something entirely different. But the end result is that I've handled more than one Kahr whose trigger feels like it creeps all the way back to when it goes bang. YMMV

It all does come down to training AND procedure. This opinion, given above is excellent and is a very good practice to follow; "I think the next best thing if one trains enough may be a SA with a thumb safety and a good but not too light trigger. Train to not take the safety off unless you are pointing at the target to shoot then put the safety back on before leaving the target."

For the people who state that having a manual safety might result in forgetting to flick it off, and get you killed, I would highly suggest they read the article you posted the link to, it is a very good read. At the end of the day, in a self-defense situation I do believe I would rather die because I neglected to flip the safety off than I would to take another person's life, especially an innocent person, unintentionally. Thanks for posting it!

[berettabone]

The whole trigger thing is definitely a money maker. Everyone and their brother has/sells trigger kits. Somehow, many shooters have been convinced that having a 2 lb. trigger pull is a great thing. Millennial triggers per se...……………...easy, no work, no effort, just breathe, put your finger on the trigger and your firearm goes off. They're carrying these firearms around for defensive purposes, in tiny little holsters... Scary...………………………………………I also started out shooting revolvers. My first real firearm was a S&W Model 19. I can also understand why someone would like a da only firearm. Same old, same old simplicity, no surprises, same pull every time. I prefer to have both options. I carry a revolver that's da/sa and I carry a semi that's da/sa. To me personally, that's the best of both worlds. My semi has a stock trigger which is fine for me. I also like revolvers because they can have nice triggers in da/sa for little money and a little elbow grease. IMHO, if you practice enough with a stock trigger, you can/will be proficient with it, no matter what the firearm model is. Sometimes you can just make things too easy, and possibly dangerous/risky. The Kahr trigger that I have experienced was butter smooth, and I don't understand how you would want it any lighter. A baby could have pulled my MK trigger...…………………..

[boscobarbell]

I cut my teeth training in Smith revolvers, and then for most of my career was armed with DAO Sig pistols. I was never trained in "cock and locked" carry, and as such have opted to never own such a pistol. So I admit to bringing to this discussion an inherent bias.

I actually prefer a DAO pull with a bit of travel, as it allows me to "settle" my sights before the break. I have found that I'm actually less accurate with light, short stroke triggers because I tend to anticipate that quick break and tend to flinch in anticipation. As an example, I own H&Ks with the LEM trigger, and I find that I am much more accurate with them than I am light striker pulls like a Shield or Walther PPQ.

I have owned and carried Glocks over the years, too, and have always been very cautious about ADs with that short, light trigger pull. I own a G42 that I love, but I only reholster after taking the IWB off my body so I can visually ensure that there are no obstructions for the trigger to get hung up on. I also added the Tau Gadget as a manual indicator that the striker is being engaged. Of course, that doesn't even help with ADs in stressful situations when the gun is drawn but a shot not yet called for. I think a DAO just adds another level of safety to that kind of situation, because you would need to quite deliberately complete the full travel of the pull.

Then again, I am not a bullseye shooter, and really only train for SD engagements. Primarily 3-7 yards, although I may shoot plates at 25-50 yards just for fun. And I've found that some newbies--and maybe too many experienced shooters--gauge their prowess by hitting paper circles with slow, deliberate shots, and they then proclaim that the lightest, shortest striker or SA pulls are the only kind of pistols to own.

[BubbleHead]

DAO for EDC, DA/SA for home defense. That's my mantra.

[Bawanna]

Have a couple friends who were LA SWAT in a much earlier life. Carried S&W 45 Auto's. DA/SA. They both in separate conversations referred to the first shot as a cocking round which usually went into the floor as they drew the gun. They said many bad guys gave up just from that first cocking round as they knew then that they meant business. They were sharp cookies and been there done that, weather the cocking round story is true or not I can't say but I believed them. A lot of stuff went on in LA.
Haven't seen them in several years but they were still carrying S&W DA/SA autos for personal use.
Me, I'll stick with the 1911. The thumb safety is the most natural well designed control ever invented.
All the plus of what many prefer in a Glock trigger but with some safeties built in. I used to carry DA/SA auto's, don't think I could go back to two different trigger pulls today.
Course being born a 100 years too late and being a thumb buster if a gun has a hammer I'll cock it first at least with any revolver.
Give me a good SA Revolver any day.

[Tilos]

I have to admit I really like a good, smooth double action trigger. I like the Sig P250 being DAO but most people probably don’t.

I think the next best thing if one trains enough may be a SA with a thumb safety and a good but not too light trigger. Train to not take the safety off unless you are pointing at the target to shoot then put the safety back on before leaving the target.

I think about all the polymer wonder guns that are basically SA guns with nothing but a “trigger safety” and then folks lightening up the trigger on top of that, then appendix carrying.

I have a few "polymer wonder guns" from different Mfg'ers and everyone has a different feel trigger, different take-up, different break poundage, different over-travel, etc.
Training for familiarity with each does not help when switching guns during a range cession for me.

I've written aftermarket trigger KIT mfg'ers about DOA conversion kits for the most popular models (posted about this before too) and have yet to receive a response.
With Sig's new DAK trigger and H&K LEM trigger with a DOA feel, being popular, I wish the trigger kit guys would get the hint.

I think a DOA feel trigger could be mimicked with a simple design/adding a spring(s) on most striker fired guns, without an actual DA mechanism.
That and loosing the stupid trigger flipper lever or the middle hinged trigger would greatly reduce unintentional discharges.
jmo,
:yo:

[boscobarbell]

I have a few "polymer wonder guns" from different Mfg'ers and everyone has a different feel trigger, different take-up, different break poundage, different over-travel, etc.
Training for familiarity with each does not help when switching guns during a range cession for me.

I've written aftermarket trigger KIT mfg'ers about DOA conversion kits for the most popular models (posted about this before too) and have yet to receive a response.
With Sig's new DAK trigger and H&K LEM trigger with a DOA feel, being popular, I would the trigger kit guys would get the hint.

I think a DOA feel trigger could be mimicked with a simple design/adding a spring(s) on most striker fired guns, without an actual DA mechanism.
That and loosing the stupid trigger flipper lever or the middle hinged trigger would greatly reduce unintentional discharges.
jmo,
:yo:

I like the way you think. My Sig P365 with an LEM trigger would be EDC nirvana.

[BirdsThaWord]

DAO for EDC, DA/SA for home defense. That's my mantra.
I like your mantra!

[I_Like_Turtles]

Self defense is an extremely personal choice and what one chooses to carry is even more of a personal choice.

I do not feel that long and heavy trigger pulls are conducive to safety. Instead I think those encourage unsafe weapons handling and make precise hits harder to obtain.

One of the reasons I have returned to Kahrs for carry is that the single action pull mimics my snub nosed revolvers' double action pull. As I will continue to carry a revolver I hope the consistency will be helpful. *The Kahr is not a true "double action" as the slide does 1/2 the striker cocking. The trigger pull only mimics a double action.

When it comes to full-size handguns, the only ones I desire to carry are the 1911 and Browning Hi Power breeds. One type of action I used to be welded to but now have no desire at all for, is the Walther PPK / P38-inspired double action first shot/single action following shots, AKA "DA/SA." I now prefer a consistent trigger pull each time.

[boscobarbell]

Self defense is an extremely personal choice and what one chooses to carry is even more of a personal choice.

I do not feel that long and heavy trigger pulls are conducive to safety. Instead I think those encourage unsafe weapons handling and make precise hits harder to obtain.

One of the reasons I have returned to Kahrs for carry is that the single action pull mimics my snub nosed revolvers' double action pull. As I will continue to carry a revolver I hope the consistency will be helpful. *The Kahr is not a true "double action" as the slide does 1/2 the striker cocking. The trigger pull only mimics a double action.

When it comes to full-size handguns, the only ones I desire to carry are the 1911 and Browning Hi Power breeds. One type of action I used to be welded to but now have no desire at all for, is the Walther PPK / P38-inspired double action first shot/single action following shots, AKA "DA/SA." I now prefer a consistent trigger pull each time.


You are right...it is all about personal choice.

Given that...does it not concern you that you have chosen some pistols that require only a trigger pull and some that require you to first disengage a safety to make them operable?

[BirdsThaWord]

I think this discussion could go for eons.

[I_Like_Turtles]

You are right...it is all about personal choice.

Given that...does it not concern you that you have chosen some pistols that require only a trigger pull and some that require you to first disengage a safety to make them operable?

I have wondered about that and if I would fail to disengage a safety at the worst possible moment.

[boscobarbell]

I have wondered about that and if I would fail to disengage a safety at the worst possible moment.

It is--literally and figuratively--my worst nightmare.

I come to this with an admitted bias. I learned to shoot with DA revolvers, and later "graduated" to DAO semi pistols. I was a federal agent for over 30 years, and our service pistols were all DAO. So when I served as a range instructor, I also taught that manual of arms to current, new, and aspiring agents. It is part of my DNA. At this point, SA with a safety is like trying to teach me Mandarin.

Now, there are plenty of SA pistols that I would, in theory, love to own and shoot. But I wouldn't consider doing so unless I spent A LOT of hours at the range retraining my muscle memory, and also committed to not shooting DA or striker/no safety pistols ever, ever again.

I fully recognize and acknowledge that my brain is small and faulty, and I see no need to confuse it unnecessarily.

[I_Like_Turtles]

There is no way of knowing (for sure) short of actually experiencing needing to fire the next time I carry my 1911 but I don't think I am going to forget. I've handled, shot, competed, and practiced draws and dry firing with the Hi power and 1911 so much, I don't think I'd forget their manual of arms. I could be wrong but I don't really worry about that.

I seem to recall (during the last range session Tuesday night) that I instinctively dropped a 1911-type safety with my left thumb, while shooting my Kahr P9 Covert. :cool: That may not be a bad habit to have considering my somewhat varied carry battery selection. :rolleyes:

Now, what I did discontinue, was having a Browning BDM as part of my home defense ready alert. For those of you not familiar, the BDM's safety/decocker worked totally different from a Browning HP/1911. So pushing the decocker down actually put the weapon onto "safe." I retired that otherwise fine design to the safe.

[boscobarbell]

There is no way of knowing (for sure) short of actually experiencing needing to fire the next time I carry my 1911 but I don't think I am going to forget. I've handled, shot, competed, and practiced draws and dry firing with the Hi power and 1911 so much, I don't think I'd forget their manual of arms. I could be wrong but I don't really worry about that.

I seem to recall (during the last range session Tuesday night) that I instinctively dropped a 1911-type safety with my left thumb, while shooting my Kahr P9 Covert. :cool: That may not be a bad habit to have considering my somewhat varied carry battery selection. :rolleyes:

Now, what I did discontinue, was having a Browning BDM as part of my home defense ready alert. For those of you not familiar, the BDM's safety/decocker worked totally different from a Browning HP/1911. So pushing the decocker down actually put the weapon onto "safe." I retired that otherwise fine design to the safe.

Sounds like the manual of arms is something with which you are entirely familiar.

With me, it would be more of a "old dog, new tricks" thing.

[I_Like_Turtles]

Sounds like the manual of arms is something with which you are entirely familiar.

With me, it would be more of a "old dog, new tricks" thing.

I doubt a man of your experience would forget either.

Thank you for implying I am not old. :cool:

[I_Like_Turtles]

You know, we got this one pretty off-topic!

Can you prevent unintentional discharges? YES. First off, there are no "accidental/unintentional" discharges, there are only negligent discharges. It's like an x-trooper told me. "The only way you have a car accident is if a tree falls onto your car......most 'accidents' are 'crashes' because you did something you shouldn't have."

Gun safety rules overlap....following just the most basic will prevent anything serious from happening.

Action type has no effect on negligence....it's all operator error.