View Full Version : CW9 vs. PPS
salinas44
09-10-2010, 09:20 AM
I have been looking at the Kahr CW9 and the Walther PPS for CC. They seem to be near the same dimensions. Both are single stack. The Kahr is lighter though 21oz. vs 17oz. Does anyone have any thoughts on what the CW9 strengths and weaknesses are vs the PPS?
recoilguy
09-10-2010, 09:30 AM
The CW is a bit thinner and shorter, it is easier to take down and clean in my opinion and is a much nicer looking weapon. The Walther has adjustable backstraps to customize fit to your hand. The CW shots straight and true, normally with out a hiccup. The trigger is a bit long but very consistant and when you use it you realize what a fine trigger it has, The walther is a good gun and I would not hesitate to own one. I would not trade my CW for one however. The CW can be carried all day long and concealed to invisibility with a quality holster for almost any dress occasion. When you have a PPS you like it so much you will want another gun. When you own the CW you like it so much you will want another Kahr!
Both are good weapons from repuatible mfgs. Good luck with your choice.
RCG
frank_drebin
09-13-2010, 08:56 AM
The backstrap safety on the PPS was a deal killer for me. If the gun drops and the backstrap becomes dislodged, the gun will not fire. No thanks.
tomwalshco
09-14-2010, 04:02 AM
Before I got into the Kahr club, I researched a lot of thin carry 9s. The Walther looked like just the ticket. Found a shop that had one and fondled it for good bit and was disappointed that it felt so foreign in my hand. Couldn't put my finger on why. Possibly just felt heavier than I was expecting or a balance point that was unfamiliar. Never shot it, though.
Ended up getting a CW9 from Bud's sight unseen. Very happy with my decision. Honestly, my CW is the most accurate gun I have which includes a few 5" guns. Maybe I just got lucky. My 2 cents on the compare. 1st impression thing, maybe. And I really liked Kahr triggers from the 1st tug....
linksrds
09-16-2010, 04:47 PM
The Walther seems to feel very flat in the hand, almost like holding a board. My CW9 is a natural pointer, and very easy to shoot instinctively.
jlottmc
09-17-2010, 08:53 AM
... When you have a PPS you like it so much you will want another gun. When you own the CW you like it so much you will want another Kahr!...
RCG
That's about the best comparison I've seen articulated. I handled the PPS while my wife is trying to decide what she wants to start with for CC, and for me the deal breaker was the magazine release. Now that I now about the backstrap safety, I'm kinda glad I scratched that one off the list.
wyntrout
09-17-2010, 10:46 AM
The Kahrs are clean, natural pointers. There aren't any extra levers, curls or other extraneous protuberances to catch your clothing. I like the clean, simple, utilitarian Kahrs. Too many other pistols are just so "busy" with extra detail or "features", and just bizarre looking to me.
JMHO, of course!
Wynn:D
oldtex
09-17-2010, 04:33 PM
I have been looking at the Kahr CW9 and the Walther PPS for CC. They seem to be near the same dimensions. Both are single stack. The Kahr is lighter though 21oz. vs 17oz. Does anyone have any thoughts on what the CW9 strengths and weaknesses are vs the PPS?
I don't have a CW9, but I do have a PM9, a K9, and a TP9, and a Walther PPS. My wife and I got these guns for her primarily as they don't really fit into an operational requirement for me. But I can give you my thoughts on similarities and differences between Kahrs in general and the PPS. I have about 3k rds through our Kahr 9mms, and about 800 rds through the PPS.
Similarities: All are very flat; slide widths are right at .9" for all four guns. The PM9 and TP9 grips are about .9" in width across the grip as is the PPS. All would work well IMO as IWB guns.
In terms of weight, the TP9 feels about the same as the PPS, and the PM9 is slightly lighter (about 4-5 oz).
All of them have good sights. Night sights can be retrofitted to any of them. Walther offers different height front sights marked with a number to indicate height; as far as I know Kahr does not.
I think corrosion resistance (Kahr slide is stainless, PPS is Tennifer), lube requirements, ease of diassembly(upper is easy, lower is challenging), and overall reliability are probably about equal for all four. IMO overall quality is high for both Kahrs and Walthers.
Customer service from Kahr and Walther America are IMO pretty good. Walther America I believe is actually part of S&W.
Kahrs and the PPS both have a very low bore axis, and thus tend to have little muzzle flip. They are Glock-like in this respect.
Neither the Kahrs or the PPS work very well out of a pocket for me. the relatively square profile of the rear of the slide seems to catch on the pocket lip. I've tried various holsters and haven't found a solution. No, that's not true. The solution I've found is to use my S&W 642s as pocket guns. They draw very smoothly regardless of pocket type or holster type.
As to differences, the biggest difference in my mind is the trigger. The Kahr's trigger with its long reset is much like a DA revolver trigger. The PPS has a trigger that is IMO Glock-like in that it has shorter stroke and a short distinct reset. I and my wife have found that we seem to be able to shoot the PPS with a greater combination of speed and accuracy than we can the Kahrs, even though we have more trigger time on the Kahrs. I think the trigger differences account for this.
The PPS has that Walther and H&K-like mag release, a lever rather than a button. It's different, so one would need to develop muscle memory to use it smoothly. It is probably less susceptible to dropping a mag inadvertently than a button release, IMO.
The Kahrs point like most non-Glock autos; the PPS with its larger optional backstrap can be configured with the same grip angle as a Glock.
PPS mags are more expensive and somewhat less available than Kahr mags. PPS mags are blued; Kahr mags are stainless. All three lengths of PPS mag share the same spring, mag body, and follower. They can be converted among the three capacities/lengths by changing out the floorplate and an adapter. The PPS follower is all plastic; the Kahr follower is mostly plastic but has a steel button on it where it engages the slide stop. The Kahr follower might prove to be more durable.
There is probably more aftermarket support for the Kahrs than the PPS, at least at present. Crimson Trace makes a laser for the polymer 9mm Kahrs, but not for the PPS. Holster availablity is a bit better for the Kahrs than the PPS, but is sufficient IMO for the PPS.
The Kahrs are more compact for their barrel length that any 9mm autos I'm aware of. The PPS is a little longer for a given barrel length than a Kahr.
The PPS has a very short grip, and can use three different lengths of magazine. In the two longer types the mag floorplate forms a part of the grip. The CW9's grip, IIRC, is about .4-.5" longer than the PPS.
I seem to sometimes hit the Kahr slide stop with my strong hand (right) thumb because I use a thumbs forward grip. This has resulted in premature slide locks in two instances, once with the K9 and once with the TP9. The PPS slide stop is less obtrusive, and I haven't hit it by accident, yet.
The PPS does have that removable backstrap which when removed disables the firing mechanism. I don't like this feature, but haven't had a problem with it. I have a Hogue Handall Jr on our PPS.
Recoil springs: My experience with the K9 and PM9 is that they need new ones at about 500-1000 rd intervals. Kahr's CS recommends changing them at 1000-1500 rd intervals. I don't know how often the PPS will need changing, but Walther America told me to change it at about a 2500-3000 rd interval. I suspect they will need it sooner.
My wife can't rack the PM9 slide, can marginally rack the K9, and has no problem racking the TP9 or the PPS.
The PPS has a short accessory rail; the Kahrs don't.
The PPS has more steel to steel contact between slide and frame rails. the Kahr may be sufficient, but the PPS has more.
the PPS has an interesting (at least to me) feature in that the plate on the rear of the slide has a hole in it through which the rear of the striker can protrude. Thus by sight and by touch one can tell if the PPS is uncocked, partially cocked(that is, the slide has been racked), or if the trigger is being pressed. This is a safety feature that could come in very handy if one carried Appendix IWB. It could prevent a self-vasectomy.
tomwalshco
09-17-2010, 06:57 PM
That's pretty darn good info, there. Thanks for taking the time, tex.
oldtex
09-17-2010, 08:46 PM
That's pretty darn good info, there. Thanks for taking the time, tex.
Sure thing. Glad to help.
the PPS has intrigued me, but I just can't seem to get used to the grip. it seems long to me, for the given caliber. Backstrap to trigger pull length.
One specimen that I felt, the trigger was also "mushy" and didn't feel safe to be honest. I'd be interested in oldtex comments,
oldtex
09-18-2010, 10:03 PM
the PPS has intrigued me, but I just can't seem to get used to the grip. it seems long to me, for the given caliber. Backstrap to trigger pull length.
One specimen that I felt, the trigger was also "mushy" and didn't feel safe to be honest. I'd be interested in oldtex comments,
The PPS is Glock-like in many ways. One of them is that it has a "disconnector" in approximately the same place that the Glock has a "connector" in the right rear of the frame. An odd aspect of this is that the PPS's disconnector actually sticks up above the top of the frame, and has a flange that rides in the right side slide rail. This disconnector has to be lubed or else it can cause the trigger to fail to reset. I have like you noticed that the trigger was somewhat mushy, but this seems to lessen as the gun breaks in. The trigger press on my PPS has smoothed out, but the movement from the point at which the trigger is fully to the rear forward to its reset point still feels a little mushy. The arrival of the trigger at the reset point itself is strong; one can hear it as well as feel it. I'm hoping that more rds through the gun will polish the surfaces within the trigger system in such a way that the reset travel eventually smooths out. If not at some point I may ask my friendly neighborhood pistolsmith to polish some of the surfaces in there.
Re the backstrap to trigger length: The PPS has two different size interchangeable backstraps, and I wonder if perhaps the one you handled had the larger backstrap installed.
Another possible explanation is this. When I lay my PPS (with the smaller backstrap installed) on top of my PM9, it looks like the distance from the web of the hand to the face of the trigger is approx the same on both guns. But I must add that this is with the slack taken up on the trigger of the PPS. If I had not taken up the slack, the PPS distance from the web of the hand to the trigger face would be about .3" longer than that of the PM9.
The PPS has a Glock-like trigger where there is a relatively long but low resistance zone which one passes through before getting to the actual trigger press. On subsequent shots, one need not let the trigger all the way out to its original position. Like a Glock, one can allow it out just past the reset point and then squeeze from there. Just letting the trigger out to just past this reset point means that one eliminates all that initial take-up on those subsequent shots. Some folks call this "shooting to rest". Am I making sense?
Since the Kahr doesn't have this low-resistance but long take-up, I think it's fair to measure its web of the hand to trigger face distance with the trigger in its forward resting position.
These are IMO two very different trigger systems.
Another thing about the PPS grip is that its short length from top to bottom may make it seem bigger front to back relatively speaking. Did the one you handled have a flush fit mag? That would influence the grip also. There is in 9mm a flush fit 6 rd mag, a 7 rd mag with a floorplate that in effect adds about .4" of grip length, and an 8 rd mag that adds a bit more grip length.
With the shortest mag ( 6 rd), the PPS is about the same height as a PM9 (or MK9 )with a flush fit 6 rd mag with steel magazine floorplate. With the medium length 7 rd mag, the PPS is about the same height as a K9 ( or P9 or CW9) with a standard 7 rd mag with plastic floorplate. With the longest mag, the 8 rd one, the PPS is about the same height as our TP9 (or a T9) with its 8 rd mag with plastic floorplate.
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