CT380 vs P9 or S9 recoil?

[Ralph III]

Hello Everyone,
I have been considering getting my daughter a CT380 and would like some input. Is this a pistol that a teenage girl or young lady can handle? I mean what is the recoil like in comparison to a larger P9 or S9?

These are my options:

1. I can go ahead and get her a CT380 if viable.
2. I can get her an S9 but only if the recoil is similar to what a CT380 would be.
3. I can give her my S9 and get a P9 for myself. I'm leery of this option because I really like my S9 and the trigger is perfect for me at 5.5#. So I'd hate to end up with a p9 that had a 7# trigger.

The deciding factor really comes down to recoil management though. I've been teaching her to shoot with a Bersa Thunder 380 which has light recoil. I'd however like to move her over to the Kahr line due to the consistent trigger

God Bless,
Ralph

[Bawanna]

She should be able to handle the P9 or S9 with ease. I'd definitely get her a real caliber gun. The slightly larger size will be much more fun for range and still completely workable should she decide to carry it at some point down the road.
More of an issue is the difficulty in working the slide, many find this challenging.
If you should get a P9 I'm certain it won't have a 7# trigger and if it does just get a 5# striker spring and it should be better.

Many folks think young girl, tiny little mouse gun, I don't subscribe to that. I'd actually lean towards a revolver to begin with, a 3" would be my first choice.

[I_Like_Turtles]

It's really hard to buy a firearm for someone else. No chance for her to try something out first? Let her try your S9 out.

Personally, I do not feel .380 has the mass needed for adequate penetration. I used to carry one, stopped, sold all my .380's.

Good luck!

[DavidR]

If she’s going to conceal carry I say CT380 all the way. It’s highly unlikely that a young woman, assuming she dresses like most young women, can conceal an S9.

On YouTube, Hegshot87 has a video where he and his wife talk about concealed carry for women. It’s enlightening.

And 380 is completely adequate for personal defense.

[Ralph III]

Thanks for the input!

Let's please not deviate from the original question though because modern ballistics show the .380acp to be an adequate self defense round. I've shot one for years at various targets and no way would I ever want to be on the other end of one. But yes, 9mm is more potent and that is why I carry it.

The question is how does the CT380 compare to the S9 or P9 for that matter in regards to recoil? Because it is smaller I would think the recoil would be similar to the 9mm models in which case I would get her the later. Otherwise, if it has quite a bit less recoil then I'd opt to get her the .380acp.

She hasn't been able to shoot my S9 yet and it may be a while yet, given the current situation, but I am leaning toward getting her a 9mm at this time.

Thanks,
Ralph

[berettabone]

Please don't take offense to my question...…………......…...…...your not going to let her choose what she shoots?????????

[Ralph III]

Please don't take offense to my question...…………......…...…...your not going to let her choose what she shoots?????????

No offense taken and you are correct. I will add some details because a few others may find it helpful.

My daughter has only just begun to shoot and she wouldn't have a clue what is best for her. Whereas I have been shooting for nearly 50 years and I know my daughter quite well. My father didn't ask me what I wanted to shoot at age 6 when he first started taking us boys hunting. He used his experience to decide what would be best for us at that time. Nor would I leave it to someone who has no experience with guns to make such a decision.

*A DA/SA semi automatic is not the best gun for a beginner to learn with nor consider carrying, IMHO. You have two completely different trigger actions which is best left to someone with quite a bit of experience. It could be easy for a beginner to forget when the gun is in SA mode and that would then be a very dangerous situation.

*A DA revolver is an excellent gun for a beginner to start with or carry.

*A DA Kahr is even better I feel because you have a modern gun with a DA only trigger. So you get a gun that she could eventually carry which has a very safe and consistent trigger.

So the question for me at this time is whether to get her a .380acp or 9mm. When she is older and has greater experience she could always buy something different if desired. That won't happen though so I'd like to get her something she will keep and master.

God Bless,
Ralph

[DavidR]

I have a CT380 and a P9. Not an appreciable difference in felt recoil.

[I_Like_Turtles]

I notice that people on this site really like the .380. ;)

I taught a female coworker how to shoot. I figured "new shooter, new gun owner, revolver would be best for her." It would be actually, it's best for most people because most do not clean their firearms that much, they don't shoot that much, and they will not shoot enough to familiarize themselves with the malfunctions that a semi-auto can have.

However, I found that cylinder blast scared my friend! She could not get past it. So, I suggested a Glock 19. We rented one and she shot it very well that day. That's what she ended up buying. A Glock 19 is not too small and not too large....it's about the right size for self defense and even carry. She wasn't going to carry it though.

Now in our case, we were in a large city with several indoor gun ranges. The one we used had a large number of handguns for rent. Thus, it was easy for us to rent the weapons she needed exposure to in order to make the right choice for her.

****
A year later I moved away and she called me once at 2 AM. Apparently someone had tried to break into her house and she had loaded the weapon BUT DID NOT KNOW HOW TO UNLOAD IT. So I was right, she did not practice with her chosen weapon enough to know how to use it. I did tell her that just before I told her how to unload it. I did recommend she keep it loaded in the future (in safe place, etc.).

***

I don't think the OP made any mention of how the weapon was to be used. Kept at home? Home defense? Carried? It's hard for women to conceal carry a firearm....most will put it into their purse which is a bad place for any weapon. My GF and I have discussed this. She is very petite, 5'2", and very fit. She may well end up with (cough, cough) a small .380 but since she doesn't (yet) live in USA, we can't test out what she likes. She plans to carry though which I think is essential. I view a marriage as a "team" and both team members must be armed so they can function as a team.

[berettabone]

No offense taken and you are correct. I will add some details because a few others may find it helpful.

My daughter has only just begun to shoot and she wouldn't have a clue what is best for her. Whereas I have been shooting for nearly 50 years and I know my daughter quite well. My father didn't ask me what I wanted to shoot at age 6 when he first started taking us boys hunting. He used his experience to decide what would be best for us at that time. Nor would I leave it to someone who has no experience with guns to make such a decision.

*A DA/SA semi automatic is not the best gun for a beginner to learn with nor consider carrying, IMHO. You have two completely different trigger actions which is best left to someone with quite a bit of experience. It could be easy for a beginner to forget when the gun is in SA mode and that would then be a very dangerous situation.

*A DA revolver is an excellent gun for a beginner to start with or carry.

*A DA Kahr is even better I feel because you have a modern gun with a DA only trigger. So you get a gun that she could eventually carry which has a very safe and consistent trigger.

So the question for me at this time is whether to get her a .380acp or 9mm. When she is older and has greater experience she could always buy something different if desired. That won't happen though so I'd like to get her something she will keep and master.

God Bless,
Ralph I would then say, that I would start her out on the largest caliber that she could handle. If she doesn't have any yips, 9mm is the lowest I would go.

[Ralph III]

Thanks DavidR. That is all I wanted to know.

So I think I will be giving her my S9 and looking to pick up a P9 for myself. This has nothing to do with diminishing the capability of the .380acp though and I think anyone who does, does so out of ignorance with due respect. Modern ballistics has made that a viable caliber for self defense purposes. However, it would make no sense to go with the .380acp if the 9mm alternative offers the same amount of recoil and control.

God Bless,
Ralph

[Armybrat]

Same between my CT380 & CW9.

[Burnett]

Since she has no problem with a Bersa 380 I think she would be fine with any of them so I would go with the 9mm. The Bersa is a blowback which generally is more jarring than a locked breach pistol like the Kahr line. I know with the 380 PPK I had I was done after 1 box. To muddy the waters why not consider a K9? It's only 5oz or so heavier than the Bersa and would be easy in the recoil department.

[Old No7]

More of an issue is the difficulty in working the slide (Kahr 380], many find this challenging.

That would be my concern as well.

The website "Handgun Hero" has a neat application where you can call up a gun by make and model, and then compare it to another gun as long as its in their database. This LINK (click here to open) shows a Kahr K9 versus a P9 (https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/kahr-k9-vs-kahr-p9) but just use the "Compare More" pull-down options to select other guns; and it shows all the specs and 2 or 3 views (under "Compare Views") of the size differences.

I used that site when I finally decided to ditch my Kahr CT380 and make a P9 Covert (referencing data from the PM9 & P9 to make the comparison).

Old No7

[King Rat]

I have found the recoil rates below from Genitron to be very close to felt recoil for all my firearms.

https://i.imgur.com/t6AmSnp.jpg?1


https://www.genitron.com/

[Bawanna]

Thanks DavidR. That is all I wanted to know.

So I think I will be giving her my S9 and looking to pick up a P9 for myself. This has nothing to do with diminishing the capability of the .380acp though and I think anyone who does, does so out of ignorance with due respect. Modern ballistics has made that a viable caliber for self defense purposes. However, it would make no sense to go with the .380acp if the 9mm alternative offers the same amount of recoil and control.

God Bless,
Ralph

Solely to stir the pot (we need some excitement around here) and being a bit ignorant the day you see ole bawanna carrying a 380, he'll also be wearing a shirt that says sheep. I briefly considered getting a lightweight 9mm? 1911 due to all the heavy gun carrying talk around here and also in preparation for hand and wrist giving up the ghost at some point (although doing fine lately) but I let that go. When I can't carry and shoot my full size or commander 45's I'll just rely on other sheepdogs to watch over me.
I do belt carry the PM45 on days I'm feeling week or depending on my activities but no 380's for this misplaced Missouri dirt farmer.

[I_Like_Turtles]

"Stir the pot?" Are the members of this site able to handle a tongue-in-cheek caliber battle? LOL. I certainly hope so. Nothing wrong with stout debate either.

Caliber wars are fun to me, it's all "internet" which we must take with a grain of salt anyway or we'll "ignore" everyone and then be here alone.

I used to love my Colt Pony Pocketlite .380 and I would argue that it was big enough although that was counter to what I had read. The weapon itself had flaws....the trigger pin would come out under recoil (although that stopped once peened in) and the trigger pull was pretty crap. It had reliability problems with standard pressure ammo, but I carried Carbon 95 grain +P in it. I doubt a gel test would show FBI minimum penetration depth with that load.

However, with the introduction of the Kahr polymer series, the little Colt no longer was necessary. The PM9 was the same size or smaller, with a better trigger. I opted for the P9 Covert giving me a longer sight radius and shorter grip, at the time, what I wanted. I eventually sold the Colt (I had more than one, sold them all) but the P9 Covert I retain.

If all a person can shoot due to hand size or physical limitation (bad wrists) is a .22, then yes, carry that. I do not think the .380 can penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach the vitals but it's better at that than a fist.

One .380 I would like to own is the new Browning smaller-sized 1911 "Black Label." I may get one eventually, maybe when they begin to show up used. When my Asian Persuasion GF gets over here, a .380 may be all she can handle even though she loves my Smith and Wesson 1911 PC so much I renamed it the "NFG" for "Novita's Favorite Gun." Her hand will be much too small for it as it's nearly too big for me and my hands are bigger than her's.

[berettabone]

My wifey carried an SP101 for years...………………...she now carries an LCP2 .380. Does it make me happy? No...……………...Do I think it's enough horsepower? No...……………..Would I carry a .380 for defensive purposes? No...…...Does any of this matter to my wifey? No...………….Anything larger is uncomfortable enough to get her to carry less, and I want her to carry more. Having shot most of my firearms, she has no issue with recoil, it's all about comfort. So, every once in a while, I tell her that I don't think the odds are too good in being able to stop a large person, with a thick winter coat on, with warm clothes on underneath, trying to harm you, with a .380 cal. pistol. Sorry to all of my .380 fans out there. I think the caliber is fine for certain situations, but for all around defensive situations, I think it falls a bit short for me in the confidence area. Please save any " I wouldn't want to be on the other end of it." " I sure wouldn't want to be shot by it." I wouldn't want to be shot with a BB gun, or a blowgun, or a crossbow, or hit with a rock, or stabbed, or run over etc...……….I have to side With BW on this one...…...no .380 for me neither.

[dao]

My wife carries a Sig P238, and also owns an S&W EZ .380. Both because they're easier for her to rack than the PM9 that she had been carrying. If racking the Kahrs is an issue for your wife, there is another option. The S&W EZ 9mm. It has been touted as not only easy to rack but also lighter on recoil than some other 9mms.
For that matter somewhere down the road I may need an easier racking handgun myself. I don't think I could get my wife to give up here Sig P238 for the EZ 9mm though.

[DavidR]

Put some Xtreme Defense or even Xtreme Penetrator in that 380 if you’re worried about penetration. Winter clothes will be irrelevant. Hollow points are not the best choice available for a 380.

[King Rat]

I have been shooting the 380's on a regular basis for over 12 yrs now. Seen just about every test that has been done. I shoot PrecisionOne 380 plus P and have no worries at all. Really do not pay attention to caliber wars much anymore. The internet is soak with blood over them. Carry what you want. That is one thing that is Great about this Country. Freedom of Choice. The rest are just opinions.

[I_Like_Turtles]

Put some Xtreme Defense or even Xtreme Penetrator in that 380 if you’re worried about penetration. Winter clothes will be irrelevant. Hollow points are not the best choice available for a 380.

Are those loads by Lehigh Defense (ammo)? If so.....penetration (and damage too) won't be much of a problem! LOL

I considered buying some of that to test in my weapons but I'm kinda afraid of over penetration.

https://www.lehighdefense.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYLbmSp5itA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErofxN3F52s

[DavidR]

Lehigh bullets. Lehigh, Underwood and Black Hills sell complete cartridges.

[berettabone]

My wife carries a Sig P238, and also owns an S&W EZ .380. Both because they're easier for her to rack than the PM9 that she had been carrying. If racking the Kahrs is an issue for your wife, there is another option. The S&W EZ 9mm. It has been touted as not only easy to rack but also lighter on recoil than some other 9mms.
For that matter somewhere down the road I may need an easier racking handgun myself. I don't think I could get my wife to give up here Sig P238 for the EZ 9mm though. I believe back in the day, when I was taking the wifey around, window firearm shopping, the small Sig's were the easiest semi's to rack. And smooth. My wifey likes the simplicity of revolvers, but you just can't get thin and small and light like you can with an Elsie Pea. Tucked in her waistband with a Remora is about as comfy as it gets and that's high on her priority list. I was always used to a bit of discomfort to be able to carry. Now, I carry the Wifey's ex SP101, with .357 firepower, which is handled pretty well by the SP. I also use a Remora in warmer weather and the holsters also work great for me. I've shot the LCP a bit and it's pretty smooth for a mouse gun. OK trigger. Actually, I was surprised that the trigger was as good as it was. I still don't think that it's enough firepower but it's her decision.:third:

[Ralph III]

Ok, I will play the game a little in regards to the capabilities of the .380acp. Just FYI, I've been shooting for nearly 50 years as my father began taking me hunting at age 7. We were big into deer hunting for most of my life and I loved every aspect of it. I loved the challenge of the hunt and the comradeship with family and close friends/mentors. Anyhow, I have shot a lot of big game as well as small game over many decades with various guns and bullets. I've also shot a lot of various targets in plinking (cans, bottles, boards, steel, etc). So you get a feel of what a gun or bullet is capable of.


Quote by I.Like.Turtles "I do not think the .380 can penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach the vitals...."
So what do you base your opinion on? Because modern ballistics show the .380acp meets the FBI standards (12in - 18in) and is fully capable of consistently penetrating to vitals even through numerous layers of denim/clothing.

If you look at AmmoQuest the Fiocchi Extrema XTP hollow point average penetration is 13.42 in. through bare gel and 15.68 in. through 4 layers of heavy denim. Precision One hollow points averaged 13.8 in. through bare gel and 13.5 in. through 4 layers heavy denim. He ruled Precision One to be the winner because one Fiocchi round slightly over penetrated to 18.5 in. Except for the one Fiocchi round that slightly over penetrated, every round fired from both manufacturers met the FBI standards for penetration through both bare gel and four layers of heavy denim! This is modern ballistics and manufacturing for you. This isn't .380acp ballistics from 30 years ago.

He then came upon Lehigh XP and tested it. The Lehigh XP performed even better with the bare gel and heavy denim. He also found that it made a greater wound cavity. I'd take that with a grain of salt however given the following.

I shoot the Fiocchi Extrema through our .380's but I also have the Precision One and Lehigh XP bullets. All of those bullets can cause some serious damage and each carries a punch. I don't buy into the hype over the damage the XP bullets can cause though. The XP and XD damage is caused by "hydraulic energy" as they describe it. Meaning the flutes create waves/pressure that essentially pushes/explodes the flesh. That is the best I can describe it, sorry. I found that to be pure hype though when comparing the Lehigh XP to the Fiocchi hollow points. I shot fours milk jugs with water. The Fiocchi hollow points completely blew apart their two jugs sending them flying through the air. Whereas the Lehigh XP rounds just made nice clean holes while barely moving the jugs. It compared more to a FMJ in damage and nothing like what a hollow point can do. I've contacted both Lehigh and Underwood and neither responded in regards and it should be noted neither offer any stats or video to support their "hydrolic energy" claims.

Having said that, I do believe the Lehigh XP does satisfy its' major objective and benefit in .380 acp. It is barrier blind and it most assuredly guarantee's adequate penetration. It is also legal, be sure to confirm this yourself, in states or cities where hollow points may not be allowed. A lot of folks will actually mix in a few XP with their Hollow points to insure penetration while maintaining some stopping power.

I have not shot the XD round to make a comparison. I've seen some impressive video but never a true comparison in .380acp caliber. Nor would I opt to carry a light projectile at 65gr when I can carry proven 90gr hollow points.



Quote by berretabone "I tell her that I don't think the odds are too good in being able to stop a large person, with a thick winter coat on, with warm clothes on underneath, trying to harm you, with a .380 cal. pistol. That is a legitimate point but you are making a straw-man argument. You are rejecting the .380acp in general by limiting your argument to a specific point.

A lot of people will use different conceal carry weapons depending on the time of season/clothing. A more powerful and larger gun could be used during the winter because it is easier to conceal with winter clothing. So your wife could go with a 9mm during that time of year. Otherwise, if she is insistent on using her .380acp she could swap out the bullets and go with such as Lehigh or Underwood XP. That is a proven deep penetrating bullet.

The golden rule is to carry the biggest gun you are capable of carrying that you can control and shoot accurately. You have to remember that accuracy is more important than caliber. I opt to carry a 9mm myself because of various factors (conceal-ability, accuracy, power). However, I have absolutely no reservations about carrying a .380acp caliber gun especially during warmer months. I've shot that round enough to know it has plenty of stopping power for typical conceal carry purposes. It also has some advantages. You can go with a smaller gun while maintaining control due to lesser recoil of .380acp. I live in the deep south and so for most of the year most folks can be found wearing shorts or light clothing so a small .380acp fits in well.

Irrespective, if the crap hits the fan it's better to have a small pistol on your person than a larger pistol sitting back at the home in a dresser drawer. Again, I've shot the .380acp enough to have confidence in it for the average person and I'll repeat; accuracy trumps caliber.

God Bless,
Ralph

[I_Like_Turtles]

Good stuff....Ralph III.....I guess we'll just have to do a little duel. You with your .380 and my friend with his .50 AE. Whichever of you is standing the longest wins. LOL

I don't think water jugs or wet newspaper is realistic testing media. I base my "bullet tests" on tn9outdoors gel tests that he conducted for several years and then posted to Youtube. I also expect rounds shot into gel to perform at the outer edge of their performance envelope, i.e., "they will do their utter best there."

That of course, is not realistic, as a bullet's "utter best" is seldom experienced in combat.

Mass = deeper penetration and I don't think the gun writers of the 1990's were wrong when they were opposed to the .380 as "having enough mass." I just don't think meeting minimum FBI standards (in gel, which is not a body) is enough for me to bet my life on when all I get might be one shot. Barely passing FBI minimum standards, I don't think, is enough.

With modern handgun designs, there just isn't much need for one to go down to a .380. The Kahr PM9 series is proof of that. Along that same line of thinking, my Kahr CW 45 is the same size in overall dimensions as my S&W 638 revolver, only the revolver's cylinder is wider. That really puts things into context! If I might be limited to one shot, I'd much rather it be a 230 grain .45 ACP than a 110 grain .38 SPL.

Now ultimately it is a personal choice....a friend (rather foolishly in my opinion) does road biking with a NAA .22 Magnum and feels "it's enough." He also thinks he'll go to prison if he shoots an attacking dog, which I also think is nuts. However, that's his freedom as an American. Myself, I don't road bike (too fat and too many redneck idiots around here plus texting drivers) but if I did I'd still carry my Kahr CW 45 with 230 grain Speer Gold Dots which is what I carry in that. Accurate, shoots to point-of-aim, and recoil is decently manageable. When I compete testing and practice with my new-to-me K9 I'll carry that when I bike. *At the moment I only "bike" in a big mall parking lot, since the gym is closed, and I don't have room for a stationary bike at home.

What is the pistol caliber of the militaries of the world? .380 or is it 9mm Parabellum? What do police departments issue? What's their minimum? It's not .380.

Why do I want to go from .45 ACP back to 9mm Parabellum? Fighting my flinch. At some point I may also go down to .380 (back down in my case as I used to cross my fingers behind my back and swear by it) but I am not there yet. If and when I do, I'll tell people "I don't think it can reliably reach the vitals but it's the best I can handle right now."

"Accuracy trumps caliber..." Ultimately yes, cannot argue with that, but it's not realistic, due to the nature of our situation. We, being defenders, will never get the first move. We will always be behind the ball as the criminal will never announce his/her intentions. Most of us draw from concealment, which further slows reaction time and causes us to carry smaller weapons. We must be able to put the maximum amount of damage onto the attacker with the least amount of shots and when it comes to incapacitation, that means reaching and overwhelming the heart, liver, lungs, and spine with damage, damage that must traverse their chest or sides first. We need a certain mass to do that which I don't think 95 grains is enough of.

I'm personally a little fearful of political fall out from use of a Lehigh bullet. I think some idiotic prosecutor would demonize it and the ambulance chasers would be all over it. I don't think that should be allowed but I am not a judge. It's an interesting approach though.....and we must always know what is beyond our target and adjust for it.

[berettabone]

Bigger boolits make bigger holes...………………………..bigger bullets make larger wound channels...……………………..the only reason that the FBI ceased using the .40 cal. is because of recoil and accuracy(they didn't practice enough), so by that same token, if .380 cal. meets their tests and approval...…….then why doesn't the FBI carry .380 as it's standard caliber and firearm????? There would be even less recoil and even better accuracy...………..I know why they don't...……………………...I also have been shooting every caliber at different times, for over 50+ yrs. and seeing what the .380 caliber does under different shooting situations isn't even close enough in ballistics for me to even consider using it for defensive purposes. All these special bullets with special price tags don't mean diddly to me. I'll bet you've never seen anyone really bash any type of ammo. It's bad for sales. They are going to talk up every type, every caliber, and every style of bullet. They're going to tell you that they all do wonderful things. I'm able to shoot in my back yard up nort, and believe me, I've shot .380 in to every type material and thickness, and the performance I want is just not there. They can keep their gel, and their 4 layers of denim, and their water jugs. I've seen the light:cool:

[King Rat]

By the way PrecisionOne did add the Plus P ammo after it was rated #1 from by AmmoQuest. I have not seen the Ballistics for this round, but know it is 50 fps faster. And the quality I have seen from PrecisionOne after thousands of rounds gives me confidence they have produced a even better round. They Recommend it for the Glock 26, but I have successfully shot hundreds of rounds out of the Pico and Kahr which you know is rated for Plus P or higher pressure Ammo. The Pico especially has seen a lot of that ammo shot through it.
In the winter time, I do carry the Nano/Apx or Kahr CM9. Forget it in the summer on most occasions. Even these small but fantastic shooters are too heavy for a pair of light weight shorts. I also carry the Smith 642 and the Ruger LCR9mm.

And just to watch BerettaBone loose his grits, I carry a Keltec P32 on many hot summer days. For that gun, I do carry the Leheigh Defender Plus P. And if anyone thinks that getting shot in the upper chest, neck and face with 8 fast rounds of that stuff is a joke, then ok with me. One of the things I have a true belief in, is many people do not realize how much you can do with a small barrel pistol. Very much underrated.

Keltec P32 fully loaded with 8 rounds of Defender Plus P is only 10oz of weight.

https://i.imgur.com/Zf6QDKI.jpg?2

[Ralph III]

Ha, ha, ha. I love strong opinions and good debate!

I'm going to pick apart a few points later though. If y'all don't mind. :amflag:


Ralph

[DavidR]

Hey King Rat - great pic but please stop posting photos like that. I do NOT need another pistol in another caliber![emoji4]

How’s the P32 trigger?

[I_Like_Turtles]

Not everyone is cut out to handle real guns......just like they can't handle real cars or real women. LOL :p

A friend delivered magazines to stores and he was "either leaving just before a robbery or getting there just after one" so he broke company policy and bought a Kel Tec. 32 which he carried via the clip you could screw into the side and clipped it into his jeans with tee shirt outside.

He later bought a Taurus 85 .38 Special and used the Birami (?) "Hip Grips." This was before concealed carry became so common in WV. He wasn't a real man for most of his life though....only right before moving up to .38. LOL :p

So a member here actually carries the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator? Pretty neat! I still have misgivings but I considered buying some of the ammo in .38 Special and adding it to my ammo tests.

[DavidR]

I carry either the Penetrator or Defense loading when I carry a 380 (either an LCP or CT380). It eliminates concern about adequate penetration. Never carry hollow points although there are some good ones.

[King Rat]

Hey King Rat - great pic but please stop posting photos like that. I do NOT need another pistol in another caliber![emoji4]

How’s the P32 trigger?

Lol, I know the feeling, I have way too many guns now and think I actually may stop as I have all I need. The Keltec is a sweet smooth little gun. Very mild. The trigger is very similar to the Kahr. I did put the trigger shoe on as the trigger is slim. Since I shoot the pocket guns often, I transitioned very easily to the Keltec. Simple little gun and easy to do well with just point an shoot. Dang the gun is Light!

[I_Like_Turtles]

I carry either the Penetrator or Defense loading when I carry a 380 (either an LCP or CT380). It eliminates concern about adequate penetration. Never carry hollow points although there are some good ones.


"Defense" as in "Critical Defense?"

I went to that in my .38's and it's awaiting testing in my 9mm Kahrs. A hollow point in .380 ACP would really lack penetration in my mind.

[berettabone]

Not everyone is cut out to handle real guns......just like they can't handle real cars or real women. LOL :p

A friend delivered magazines to stores and he was "either leaving just before a robbery or getting there just after one" so he broke company policy and bought a Kel Tec. 32 which he carried via the clip you could screw into the side and clipped it into his jeans with tee shirt outside.

He later bought a Taurus 85 .38 Special and used the Birami (?) "Hip Grips." This was before concealed carry became so common in WV. He wasn't a real man for most of his life though....only right before moving up to .38. LOL :p

So a member here actually carries the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator? Pretty neat! I still have misgivings but I considered buying some of the ammo in .38 Special and adding it to my ammo tests. Miller Beer and the .380 caliber...………...invented for the same reason. For those with no grits.

[DavidR]

"Defense" as in "Critical Defense?"

I went to that in my .38's and it's awaiting testing in my 9mm Kahrs. A hollow point in .380 ACP would really lack penetration in my mind.

No, sorry. Xtreme Defense (Lehigh bullet).

[King Rat]

Miller Beer and the .380 caliber...………...invented for the same reason. For those with no grits.

Usually said from Macho men that cannot shoot a small gun with proficiency. The learning curve just too demanding and difficult. Too easy to embarrass themselves at the range.

[berettabone]

Everyone on this forum pretty much gets along well. We are also allowed to have our opinion. If you don't make snide comments, everyone stays happy, and we can carry on. Otherwise, one of us will be booted, and I really don't give a s#!t about much. You can defend your carry choice without trying to belittle or bully people. It definitely doesn't go with me, so, your choice of the ending...…………………………….

[King Rat]

Everyone on this forum pretty much gets along well. We are also allowed to have our opinion. If you don't make snide comments, everyone stays happy, and we can carry on. Otherwise, one of us will be booted, and I really don't give a s#!t about much. You can defend your carry choice without trying to belittle or bully people. It definitely doesn't go with me, so, your choice of the ending...…………………………….

Gee, I thought we were having a good time bantering back and forth. All in fun Your comments did not bother me. Sorry I hurt our feeling. .

[DavidR]

So I tried shooting full cans of Miller at 7 yards with my CT380. Every one of them is still drinkable. Maybe King Rat is right! [emoji4]

[King Rat]

So I tried shooting full cans of Miller at 7 yards with my CT380. Every one of them is still drinkable. Maybe King Rat is right! [emoji4]

Next time use tallboys. :cool:

[dao]

You should probably try shooting them before you drink the ones in the sixpack that you aren't using as targets. ;)

[Ralph III]

Y’all ignored my comment in regards to the golden rule. You carry the largest gun (caliber) that you are capable of carrying that you can maintain control and accuracy with.



Quote by I-Like-Turtles….. “Good stuff....Ralph III.....I guess we'll just have to do a little duel. You with your .380 and my friend with his .50 AE. Whichever of you is standing the longest wins. LOL”

Ha, Ha. However, your point is irrelevant. The topic isn’t how the .380acp compares to a 9mm or .357 or .50 cal for that matter. It’s solely in regards to whether the .380acp is competent as a concealed carry weapon/caliber. Your example has nothing to do with the capabilities or the practicality of a .380acp. Nor would any sensible person attempt to carry a Desert Eagle .50 cal as their primary and deep concealment weapon, now would they?

You also ignore one aspect in choosing a conceal carry weapon or caliber which is recoil. Stats show that in most self defense situations most shots fired are misses. That fact also applies to law enforcement as well. So if you took percentages into consideration your friend would be in serious trouble in a real life situation; where someone with a lesser caliber gun would be capable of getting off rounds much faster and with much greater accuracy. So your friend may want to re-think his choice for a ccw weapon.:D




Quote by I-Like-Turtles….. “I don't think water jugs or wet newspaper is realistic testing media. I base my "bullet tests" on tn9outdoors gel tests…...”. I base my considerations on real life situations as well as other opinions and experiences. I consider gel tests to be good for general bullet performance in regards to penetration, consistency, and comparison purposes only.

In regards to the milk jug test that I performed. It was only meant to compare the amount of energy or shock a Lehigh XP bullet creates vs a Fiocchi hollow point. The flutes of the Lehigh XP supposedly generate such “pressure” that it creates a “wound cavity diameter exceeding that of most expanding bullets”. There is no better medium to test such pressures than a milk jug full of water with the cap on it. As noted, the Fiocchi hollow points completely blew apart the milk jugs sending them flying in the air. The XP’s however barely even disturbed the milk jugs and didn’t create enough pressure to even blow the caps off. So I consider a lot of this advertising as hype. Their advertising in regards to penetration seems accurate though for the XP.

The best gauge of the viability of a firearm/caliber/projectile however would be real world data. You can agree with that, correct. Because gel tests and other tests cannot say for sure how a projectile or caliber will perform in real life, correct. There is however no such DEFINITIVE or EXHAUSTIVE real life data. Especially since ballistics have changed and improved quite a bit in recent decades.

There are some folks who have compiled quite a bit of real life data however. Specifically for the purpose in determining the viability of a caliber/weapon as we are speaking. You can visit one such study HERE (http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power). You may be surprised to find that the .380acp was found to be quite lethal in comparison to many others. In fact, his extensive real life study showed it outperformed the 9mm, .40cal, .38 special and .45 as well as others in regards to “one shot incapacitation”, “average number of rounds until incapacitation” and “percentage of hits that were fatal”.

I am not saying nor would I agree the .380acp is the best caliber and that is what we should be carrying. I personally believe the 9mm to be the best self defense weapon for various reasons. All I am saying is that the .380acp is a caliber worthy of consideration as a ccw and fully capable as such.



Quote by berettabone….. “Bigger boolits make bigger holes...….bigger bullets make larger wound channels...…” Not necessarily and such doesn’t determine the usefulness of a bullet for self defense purposes. A 90gr hollow point is going to create more damage and a larger wound channel than a 100gr fmj. The construction of a projectile (hollow point vs fmj) has more to do with a wound channel, penetration and stopping power versus the size of it.




Quote by berettabone….. “ why doesn't the FBI carry .380 as it's standard caliber and firearm?????…...”

Because law enforcement and military confront and pursue adversaries. Their goal is to block any escape of a perp and then to either apprehend or eliminate the threat. They won’t stop until one or the other has been achieved. So of course they are going to carry superior weapons because in most instances they are going after hardened and desperate criminals who have two choices, fight or surrender.

A typical citizen isn’t going to pursue an attacker after an initial encounter. Nor are they going to actively attempt to block the escape of a perp in order to continue a fight. They would be risking their lives unnecessarily and exposing themselves to possible prosecution/litigation. The only exception would be in cases of a mass shooter/shooting. Most encounters occur and end very quickly. Shots are fired and the perp immediately flees or otherwise the fight is ended somehow.

So you are comparing apples to oranges. However, in showing the fallacy that the .380acp is entirely incompetent as a self defense round and that is how law enforcement officers view it as you attempt to depict. I wish to point out that many police officers actually carry a .380acp in one regards or another. You can visit PolicMag.org for an excellent article HERE (https://www.policemag.com/373521/resurgence-of-the-380-acp). It should be noted, that article is 10 years old and there has been significant and greater improvements to the .380acp ballistics since then. Therefore, you can visit PoliceMag.org for a current survey HERE (https://www.policemag.com/501522/exclusive-police-survey-backup-and-off-duty-handguns). It is worthy to note that a whopping 16% of officers (retired, current) opt to carry a .380acp as their ccw or backup.

People can carry a 9mm or .40 cal or .45 cal and that's great. However, it’s fallacy to completely dismiss the .380acp as some have done. It is a round worthy of consideration for civilian ccw, IMHO.


God Bless,
Ralph

[King Rat]

Y’all ignored my comment in regards to the golden rule. You carry the largest gun (caliber) that you are capable of carrying that you can maintain control and accuracy with.


Ha, Ha. However, your point is irrelevant. The topic isn’t how the .380acp compares to a 9mm or .357 or .50 cal for that matter. It’s solely in regards to whether the .380acp is competent as a concealed carry weapon/caliber. Your example has nothing to do with the capabilities or the practicality of a .380acp. Nor would any sensible person attempt to carry a Desert Eagle .50 cal as their primary and deep concealment weapon, now would they?

You also ignore one aspect in choosing a conceal carry weapon or caliber which is recoil. Stats show that in most self defense situations most shots fired are misses. That fact also applies to law enforcement as well. So if you took percentages into consideration your friend would be in serious trouble in a real life situation; where someone with a lesser caliber gun would be capable of getting off rounds much faster and with much greater accuracy. So your friend may want to re-think his choice for a ccw weapon.:D


I base my considerations on real life situations as well as other opinions and experiences. I consider gel tests to be good for general bullet performance in regards to penetration, consistency, and comparison purposes only.

In regards to the milk jug test that I performed. It was only meant to compare the amount of energy or shock a Lehigh XP bullet creates vs a Fiocchi hollow point. The flutes of the Lehigh XP supposedly generate such “pressure” that it creates a “wound cavity diameter exceeding that of most expanding bullets”. There is no better medium to test such pressures than a milk jug full of water with the cap on it. As noted, the Fiocchi hollow points completely blew apart the milk jugs sending them flying in the air. The XP’s however barely even disturbed the milk jugs and didn’t create enough pressure to even blow the caps off. So I consider a lot of this advertising as hype. Their advertising in regards to penetration seems accurate though for the XP.

The best gauge of the viability of a firearm/caliber/projectile however would be real world data. You can agree with that, correct. Because gel tests and other tests cannot say for sure how a projectile or caliber will perform in real life, correct. There is however no such DEFINITIVE or EXHAUSTIVE real life data. Especially since ballistics have changed and improved quite a bit in recent decades.

There are some folks who have compiled quite a bit of real life data however. Specifically for the purpose in determining the viability of a caliber/weapon as we are speaking. You can visit one such study HERE (http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power). You may be surprised to find that the .380acp was found to be quite lethal in comparison to many others. In fact, his extensive real life study showed it outperformed the 9mm, .40cal, .38 special and .45 as well as others in regards to “one shot incapacitation”, “average number of rounds until incapacitation” and “percentage of hits that were fatal”.

I am not saying nor would I agree the .380acp is the best caliber and that is what we should be carrying. I personally believe the 9mm to be the best self defense weapon for various reasons. All I am saying is that the .380acp is a caliber worthy of consideration as a ccw and fully capable as such.

Not necessarily and such doesn’t determine the usefulness of a bullet for self defense purposes. A 90gr hollow point is going to create more damage and a larger wound channel than a 100gr fmj. The construction of a projectile (hollow point vs fmj) has more to do with a wound channel, penetration and stopping power versus the size of it.



Because law enforcement and military confront and pursue adversaries. Their goal is to block any escape of a perp and then to either apprehend or eliminate the threat. They won’t stop until one or the other has been achieved. So of course they are going to carry superior weapons because in most instances they are going after hardened and desperate criminals who have two choices, fight or surrender.

A typical citizen isn’t going to pursue an attacker after an initial encounter. Nor are they going to actively attempt to block the escape of a perp in order to continue a fight. They would be risking their lives unnecessarily and exposing themselves to possible prosecution/litigation. The only exception would be in cases of a mass shooter/shooting. Most encounters occur and end very quickly. Shots are fired and the perp immediately flees or otherwise the fight is ended somehow.

So you are comparing apples to oranges. However, in showing the fallacy that the .380acp is entirely incompetent as a self defense round and that is how law enforcement officers view it as you attempt to depict. I wish to point out that many police officers actually carry a .380acp in one regards or another. You can visit PolicMag.org for an excellent article HERE (https://www.policemag.com/373521/resurgence-of-the-380-acp). It should be noted, that article is 10 years old and there has been significant and greater improvements to the .380acp ballistics since then. Therefore, you can visit PoliceMag.org for a current survey HERE (https://www.policemag.com/501522/exclusive-police-survey-backup-and-off-duty-handguns). It is worthy to note that a whopping 16% of officers (retired, current) opt to carry a .380acp as their ccw or backup.

People can carry a 9mm or .40 cal or .45 cal and that's great. However, it’s fallacy to completely dismiss the .380acp as some have done. It is a round worthy of consideration for civilian ccw, IMHO.


God Bless,
Ralph


Bravo. Just copied and put in my files.
thanks

[I_Like_Turtles]

Come on, everybody knows if your projectile is big enough, bigger than the target itself, accuracy is 100% by default. LOL

My friend really does carry a Desert Eagle .50 AE.....I didn't believe it either but what's this "deep concealment" thing? Why conceal at all?

He concealed his perfectly. I met him doing campaign calls for the local GOP office, 2012. The office coordinator was from the GOP HQ in DC......wanted to learn about carry. I was carrying my Kahr CW 45 and this guy I had just met (doing calls there himself) says he's carrying a Desert Eagle in .50 AE. I said "no way! No one carries a Desert Eagle." He says "want to see it?"

We had sense enough to go into the back room as the front room was all glass and we didn't want the county mounties called in. He reaches inside his jacket, out comes a DE. If he printed, I didn't see it.

I'll try to digest your reply and put together a decent rebuttal tomorrow.

[DavidR]

hickok45 has settled the issue. Please close this thread. [emoji4]

https://youtu.be/sl6gpMrw6NQ

[King Rat]

hickok45 has settled the issue. Please close this thread. [emoji4]

https://youtu.be/sl6gpMrw6NQ

Thanks, I love the end where he said a 380 is just fine! And then went on to shooting those plates without any thinking. Just putting that little sucker up there and nailing the target. Man, I love these little guns.
Getting back to the OP's question about recoil. My Gosh the Kahr CW380 is so mild a baby could shoot it. I can honestly say that I never even think about recoil shooting one. When I reviewed the reliability test for the p380 is shot 200 rds. If I had the time and ammo I could put a 1,000 rds easy through the gun and never even think about recoil.
The CM9 is a little more stout, but certainly nothing to fret about. I have shot almost all the Micro9'mm. And the Nano and NEW APX Carry are by far the mildest in recoil. Sweet Shooters

I will say this about the 380, it is a great defensive weapon. And like they say, as far as any defensive gun, it is all about shot placement. Just read a article yesterday that talked about the myths of the 380. And there are many. Get one, learn to shoot it well and you have a great little gun that can be carried each and every day. Yep, I am a big dedicated fan of them.

[berettabone]

Believe me, if LE could carry a larger second firearm, they would. I can also guarantee that if they made larger caliber firearms in .380 size, the .380 would go by the wayside. No one has ever said that they had too much bullet power. Talk about .380 until your head comes off. Look at many self defense videos on line where normal citizen's tried to stop a crook and failed with the .380. They didn't even fall down. They are pea shooters at best. I hope that people keep carrying .380. It leaves more ammo for me and makes my ammo less expensive also. My .40 cal is the only ammo that can be had on a regular basis. As .380 and 9mm go up in price, .40 and .45 go down. I also love reading about all of the issues with .380. Seems like way too many problems with .380 firearms. Look at your own touted statistics, which show that a bigger bullet does more damage and has a larger wound channel. Use your own stats and it's not even an argument. Many people like to fit the stats to what they carry. Look at the stats realistically, and it's not rocket science. Bigger bullet, bigger hole, bigger wound channel, period. Plus, we seem to have a lot of girly men who are soooooooooo involved with how much recoil there is with a certain firearm. Grow up girls, my wife can shoot .357 and well at that. If you can't hit anything unless you use a .380, then by all means, that's what you should carry. It's just a shame that all of these antagonists keep touting the .380 as the best caliber since white bread. I say, if .380 is your choice, you might want to take a good look in the mirror and try to find out just why you can't shoot with the big boys unless you use a firearm with practically no recoil.:o Ask LE officers how much they practice with their secondary .380...……………….they don't even practice enough with their duty firearm. I would love to be sitting in court when someone has to explain to a judge why they had to shoot someone 6 or 7 times, reload and keep shooting. I would much rather have a quick ending and for that you need caliber. A one or two shot stop looks much better in the eyes of attorneys, than magazines getting emptied. Their going to ask you what your reasoning was to empty a whole magazine in to a crook. Are you going to tell them that your wonder .380 took that many shots to stop someone?? Good luck with that. You'll need it. Plus the fact that you can't use standard .380 ammo to stop anything. Everyone is carrying Precision this, and Protector that. Attorneys gobble that stuff up. .380 owners always talk up a good game and say that they're not worried about the law and if they need to empty their mag to protect themselves, than so be it. Until they get to court and have to explain why their .380 firearm with the fancy expensive bullets took 7 shots to stop Bubba. The LE in my area that I've talked to carry small ankle derringers that shoot .45lc or .410. They don't mess with .380 because they've seen in real life scenarios what works and what doesn't. You keep the love for the .380...……………..the rest of us will use our common sense and go with something that gets the job done quickly and efficiently, without emptying magazines. You do notice that people who carry .380 are in the minority. Just a couple of you touting the wonder bullet. Might be a reason for that...………………………………..I never knew that Hickok45 was the guru of all guru's when it comes to caliber assessment. This coming from a guy who does firearm reviews, never says anything bad about any firearm or ammo because his sponsors would get pissed and no more free ammo for him. Oh, he sure can shoot alright, but ballistics expert…………..hardly.

[DavidR]

High of 95 today, humid. Sitting in the parking lot waiting for wifey while she grocery shops.

Bigger is better but this Smith and Wesson 500 with a 6 1/2 barrel jammed into my waistband sure is uncomfortable. Next time I’m bringing my P32.

[Bawanna]

I'm almost sorry I wanted to stir the pot, this thread is indeed headed for closure.
Hickok is a very wise man who I have total respect for, it's not really his ballistics expertise that comes out in the video, its the be aware and the main point is we're just getting out of a situation, not pursuing etc.

To each his own is the bottom line. Just an FYI, the officers at my department generally carried same caliber back up guns. With Glock 21's they generally carried 30's for ammo and magazine sharing. Now that they are drifting back to 9 some are going with the single stacked compact Glocks. There were 1 or 2 who carried 380's but that didn't last long, I don't recall specifically why but they went to a 9. Don't mean it's right or wrong and has nothing to do with us, being a cop is a different ball game.
One of my favorites is the guys that carry 3 or 4 back up guns. Fortunately we didn't have but 1 or 2 or those.
A few wisely in my opinion carried only revolvers for back up, zero failure, no jam clearing if wounded etc. Pretty smart.
One motor officer carries a 1911 or a Beretta 92 in his vest holster or did. Recently he switched to a Ruger SP101. Reason. He always wears gloves and the Ruger had a slightly larger trigger guard.

I'll leave this open for a bit but prepare for a closure probably soon.

[berettabone]

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/attachments/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/87833d1395604122-analysis-fbi-ballistics-data-part-1-muzzle-energy-momentum-muzzle-energy-vs-clothed-wound-channel-volume.jpg

[berettabone]

https://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/attachments/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/87834d1395604169-analysis-fbi-ballistics-data-part-1-muzzle-energy-momentum-bullet-momentum-vs.-bare-wound-channel-volume.jpg

[DJK11]

Thank you Berettabone!

[berettabone]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cb/50/24/cb5024489054661e91984b26f3cb794d.jpg

[skiflydive]

It would sure save Berettabone a heck of a lot of typing time if there was a sticky titled "BERETTABONE THINKS .380 IS INSUFFICIENT FOR SELF DEFENSE."

[DJK11]

Looks likes more additions to the “ignore” list. I’m limiting my time on Kahrtalk until it calms down. At least until the DE1911 arrives. Some here are going nuts with their posts.

[DJK11]

And yes 45acp rules.

The end.

[skiflydive]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cb/50/24/cb5024489054661e91984b26f3cb794d.jpg

If .22 and .380 suffer from insufficient penetration I wonder how they got exit holes?

[King Rat]

It is a shame that every time a thread gets started on a 380 that a select few feel the need to disparage it. What is sad is the fact that the OP was asking about The Recoil of certain guns for comparison. He did not ask anything about penetration etc. There are probably millions of folks that love the small 380, defense classes for them are being taught, Competition with them etc. And some folks actually love shooting them. What a shame Kahr puts out such a great 380 and have to listen to some members not resist but to try and close the thread. If you do not want a 380 then fine. Shoot and carry what you like. But in the meantime, leave others alone. Yes, I am sure this thread will be closed down and that is a shame. And it is wrong. But it is not my forum, and you can't fight city hall.
There use to be a dedicated forum for Pocket guns years ago. A safe haven from the few that wanted to tear down the threads. People could learn about how to train with them. Features and benifits, and just a good place to enjoy their sport. There are a number of forums that I advise 380 enthusiast not to go to learn about them. The Bore wars are becoming disgusting.
Yep, I am sure this one will be torn down, and the usual suspects will win again. I have never made a disparaging remark toward anyone that carries a large bore gun other than they are too heavy for myself to carry every day. But carry a 380 and you will not get the same respect. And again, always the same few no matter what the forum is.

I love the Kahr 380. And the last time I checked this was a Kahr forum. Go ahead and shut it down. But at least put a Sticky Warning about posting about one and what to expect. I have talked to so many 380 owners over the years that say they just stopped even logging on to a Pistol forum any longer because of this nonsense.

[berettabone]

Those that tout FBI stats to bolster their claims, sure give up easy when the stats they like to use go against their bologna sandwiches.:) Maybe in the future, we can dispense with the manure and get down to the brass tacks if you will. Don't use stats to bolster your claims when they don't stand up to the message that your trying to convey. .380 owners rejoice....according to the experts here, your caliber is safe because their are "millions" of .380 owners just chomping at the bit. Lot's of new shooters(which is good) putting their .380's up for sale on Armslist, and getting larger caliber firearms for self defense. They're learning...………………………...need a .380? There going for cheap up in this neck of the woods. As far as recoil, go with the 9mm. The .380 is a powderpuff and the 9mm isn't that much more noticeable in recoil. Sorry for getting off track, but when you see info that just doesn't cut the mustard, you have to say something so the less experienced don't believe everything they read.

[DavidR]

Certainly some strong opinions. I’ll start the campfire and grab my acoustic guitar.

[King Rat]

Certainly some strong opinions. I’ll start the campfire and grab my acoustic guitar.

Start the fire, get the marshmellows, but what ever you do, do not bring out any lite Beer. I will take a Whiskey Straight and a beer chaser. Preferably my favorite below. And YES, I love pocket guns. Beware and watch out.

Notice the print at the bottom.

https://i.imgur.com/DTEidEp.jpg?1 https://i.imgur.com/eVsR9lf.jpg?2

[dao]

You know, there are many types of hammers in the world, some for finishing work, some for framing, some for upholstery, etc, etc.
The point people should accept, and at the end of the day have to accept, is that the Kahr P380 is a "no excuses" gun. As in it can be carried nearly anywhere regardless of weather or activity, barring swimming if you value it. You don't have to dress around it, so if you have one there is no excuse not to carry a firearm when you are permitted to do so during those times when circumstances dictate not being able to dress around a larger gun or the activity makes carrying a larger gun inconvenient.
For those who wish to carry it as a primary EDC, it's unarguable that they are better off with it than without a larger gun that is not suitable to the circumstance or even personally, just because. And there are some, like my wife for who carrying a 9mm or larger does not work, for a couple/few reasons. So rather than engage in caliber wars or even disagreements if those who would not do so can just cede the point that for some it is a matter of personal choice and possibly even necessary. And who among us should be telling Jim, Bob or Sally that he or she shouldn't do that because we think another gun would be better for them? For those who feel so compelled, just let it go and tend to your own affairs. At some point everyone can agree that negative input from others into our own business is just not welcome.

[Ralph III]

Hello Everyone,

As I was the original OP I asked for one last post having not been able to respond before the thread was closed. First, I appreciated everyone’s opinion.

I would like to reinforce a few points though as I fear some new shooters may come away with a few misguided impressions in regards to the .380acp as well as larger calibers.

As stated, law enforcement do not use the .380 acp as their primary weapon because they are often confronting and engaging hardened criminals. They will continue to engage them until they are either apprehended or the threat is eliminated. So of course they are going to use a higher caliber, higher capacity weapon with bullets that offer superior barrier penetration as their primary. The general public's considerations for a ccw do not fall into that category nor do they always coincide with LE or Military considerations.

Nor should anyone use paper targets or images depicting various holes by different calibers as a guide! Paper target depictions cannot tell you anything about the performance of a caliber or bullet or a weapon. If it did, then EVERY law enforcement agency and EVERY army in the world would be using the .45. The 9mm makes a hole, as depicted in the uploaded images, significantly smaller than a .45 and yet it has been the standard for LE and Military forces for many decades. It has been the standard because it outperforms the .45 in numerous important aspects. Just as a matter of fact, the .380 acp is in essence a 9mm short.

The fact is however, shot placement is the most important aspect and that is irrespective of what caliber you carry. I have shot hundreds of big game as well as small game in my lifetime and caliber had nothing to do with being successful or unsuccessful. Nor did it determine whether I dropped a white-tail where it stood or if it required tracking over very long distances. Shot placement was always the most important factor. You can view this THREAD (https://www.policemag.com/341954/9mm-vs-40-caliber) for a good article that re-iterates some points and real life stats that was provided already within this thread. I personally do feel the .380acp to be the smallest caliber for ccw considerations. But it is a viable round that works for many people who choose to carry it. Like every pistol or caliber there are advantages and disadvantages and each person needs to consider what works best for them. And that is that.

It will not be productive to continue to debate this subject or the usefulness of guns like the Kahr CW380 or CT380. Which appear to be quality and useful guns. This is just one of those subjects though where some of us just need to agree to disagree. Let's please leave this on a cordial note. Thanks.


Now back to the family. God Bless!
Ralph

[miniman]

me ill take the moonshine it seems berretabone is a master of nothing,a poser of everything and a supervisor to know one.the 380 is in some respects better then 9mm was back in the 70s were he stole those charts from.at 25 yards the 380 goes clean through a 2x4 so it will kill you dead.just my 2 cents.and recoil well what can you say smoother then the rest.

[dao]

me ill take the moonshine it seems berretabone is a master of nothing,a poser of everything and a supervisor to know one.the 380 is in some respects better then 9mm was back in the 70s were he stole those charts from.at 25 yards the 380 goes clean through a 2x4 so it will kill you dead.just my 2 cents.and recoil well what can you say smoother then the rest.

Your third post on this forum and you use it to attack a member that's been here for 7 years? New to internet forums are you?

[Bawanna]

We're done here. Miniman, we're pretty tolerant of opinions and attitudes around here except when it disparages a fellow member. Play nice or travel accommodations will be arranged.