What ammo do you carry / shoot in your Kahrs and why?

[I_Like_Turtles]

I have three Kahrs and I have not yet competed all defensive and practice ammo testing in those (except for CW 45, defensive ammo). One I haven't shot at all. I was just getting started when the pandemic hit, chasing me out of the indoor gun range and chasing practice ammo out of supply.

Kahr CW 45: Defense: Speer Gold Dot 230 Grain

Why? It shoots well, I have a large stock of it, and it hits to point of aim.

Anyone else?

[DavidR]

My choices are not traditional:

CT380 - Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defense 65 grain. I prefer these to hollow points in a 380 as they penetrate consistently at 12 to 14 inches in gel tests.

CM9 - ARX 65 grain standard pressure (either Inceptor or NOVX). These performed well in Paul Harrel’s meat test and really reduce muzzle flip in the 3 inch barrel which for me translates to faster shots with better accuracy.

I don’t usually carry my P9.

[I_Like_Turtles]

That's neat....I think you mentioned your use of Lehigh rounds in another thread. Only their high cost has prevented me from adding them to my point-of-aim tests in my Kahrs.

ARX 65? The polymer rounds? DavidR, you definitely think "out-of-the-box" when it comes to defensive rounds! :cool:

[Bawanna]

I want to try some of that ARX stuff, heard it's incredibly accurate. Kind of goes against my heavy for caliber mindset but supposedly it works well.

I got a couple 9's so I can be one of the fella's around here, never carried them yet but probably will one of these days. The T9 begs to be carried. It gets held a lot but hasn't made it to the belt yet.

[BirdsThaWord]

I use this stuff in whatever I carry, once it’s proven to feed reliable in whatever I’m carrying.

https://youtu.be/nyLVu_3pOO4

[I_Like_Turtles]

I love Paul Harrell's videos and think well of the man.

[DavidR]

I love Paul Harrell's videos and think well of the man.

I like his meat tests as they seem more real world than gelatin. Overall I find his videos a bit boring and often speed through the accuracy and chronograph testing.

[King Rat]

I like his meat tests as they seem more real world than gelatin. Overall I find his videos a bit boring and often speed through the accuracy and chronograph testing.

SHOW ME THE BEEF!
Bravo to Paul Harrell, the Godfather!

[Barth]

Super short barrel guns call for high tech ammo.
Federal HST usually answers the call :cool:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

[AJBert]

I carry what goes bang every time, not really concerned about accuracy as distance will more than likely be very close and does the damage to stop the threat. Honestly, that pretty much covers any chunk of lead hurled out of a short barrel at a soft target with some type of skeleton that walks on two feet. I do prefer those little chunks of lead to have a small hole in the pointy end with perhaps some type of groves to help with expansion, though.

In udder words, I am not brand loyal.

[Funflyer]

I reload Speer 180gn Gold-dots for my CM40(EDC) and also my TH40(home defense) using new Starline brass. Why? Because I haven't found a reloading bullet more accurate than the GD. I plan on getting some of those 230gn Gold-dots for my 45 Shield once the supply chain catches up and I can find some.

[I_Like_Turtles]

I reload Speer 180gn Gold-dots for my CM40(EDC) and also my TH40(home defense) using new Starline brass. Why? Because I haven't found a reloading bullet more accurate than the GD. I plan on getting some of those 230gn Gold-dots for my 45 Shield once the supply chain catches up and I can find some.

You load your own self defense ammo? :ohmy:

What of the legal concerns of that voiced by Massad Ayoob and others?

[Funflyer]

You load your own self defense ammo? :ohmy:

What of the legal concerns of that voiced by Massad Ayoob and others?


I sleep very well at night by not concerning myself with legal what ifs.

[Bawanna]

Bingo!

[guido4198]

You load your own self defense ammo? :ohmy:

What of the legal concerns of that voiced by Massad Ayoob and others?
****....!!!
Here we go....:rolleyes:
I've been hearing those concerns for 40 yrs. and I've asked this question for those same 40 yrs:
Does anyone have a credible link to a legal case where origin of ammo was used as a pejorative charge against a defendant in a self-defense shooting case..??
With all the legal carry rights being exercised these days, such a charge may have been made. If so I would appreciate being enlightened. I can tell you that back when Mass first brought this topic up, there had been NONE. Might be different now. If so..please advise.
Thanks.

[I_Like_Turtles]

****....!!!
Here we go....:rolleyes:
I've been hearing those concerns for 40 yrs. and I've asked this question for those same 40 yrs:
Does anyone have a credible link to a legal case where origin of ammo was used as a pejorative charge against a defendant in a self-defense shooting case..??
With all the legal carry rights being exercised these days, such a charge may have been made. If so I would appreciate being enlightened. I can tell you that back when Mass first brought this topic up, there had been NONE. Might be different now. If so..please advise.
Thanks.

Good point....perhaps. I do know (from Ayoob's books) that a guy was wearing (I think) a "I kill for thrills" tee shirt during a shooting and the jury ruled against him. Personally I would find the shirt humorous, more so since it's a heavy metal song/band thing and I used to be a hardcore metal head.

I have seen (personally) lawyers make those kinds of accusations so I could see them doing it. I don't want to be the test case.

On the other hand, we constantly encounter the same kind of thing regarding open carry........not a lot of cases of "open carriers shot first" and yet we hear that all the time so I can relate to your stance here.

Still, I'm not going to reload a defensive load because lawyers (often) are unscrupulous mercenaries while judges are political and very biased as are juries.

[dustnchips]

Find a practice ammo that shoots the same as the production ammo and go that route. Why give the bstds an excuse.

[berettabone]

Many times it's not the law but what is put in to the minds of the jurors. I've been a juror twice, and believe me, the way some of the population thinks, it scares me. It could also be argued that you used a certain type of ammo to make sure that you only had to fire one or two shots and wanted to make sure that the bullet remained in the threat, as to not penetrate through and injure an innocent bystander. It could also be argued that practice ammo can go through an intended target, wadcutters are excessively inhumane because of their tumble, etc, etc...……………………………………...between jurors and lawyers you just have to hope that you never get yourself in to a situation where you end up in front of a jury of your "peers".:faint2:

[I_Like_Turtles]

Most certainly true......most people just don't know very much. We see that every day now with people wearing masks but leaving their noses out or wearing the mask on their head or chin! There's a lot of stupid out there and a whole lot of hate.

Dustnchips has it right and this is what I do:

Test several factory defensive loads, those with a solid track record in actual shootings (Speer Gold Dot) or that do well in gel. Pick one that shoots to point-of-aim or high but with good windage. Do the same with several practice loads looking for the same hit performance.

I used to carry whatever the sheriff's department issued, which was Speer Gold Dot, but then went with whatever did well in gel. Critical Defense actually has the word "defense" in the name......with a non-gun-owning jury, that might help. For me, Critical Defense hits to point-of-aim in nearly all my revolvers, is standard pressure, and does well in gel.

I had just begun the same testing with my semi autos although I still carry Speer Gold Dot 230 grain in my CW 45....it shoots to point-of-aim and has a solid track record in actual shootings.

[berettabone]

I use Critical Defense or Fed HST's in 3 different calibers. I believe that the Hornady ammo is slightly more accurate. I also believe in UFO'S. ..............At 30 ft. or less, if someone can tell the difference between the two, they're a better man than I, and their name is Chuck Connors. I've used them both pretty exclusively without issue and their test results show well. They both just seem to function well in my firearms although in revolvers, everything seems to function well.:)

[I_Like_Turtles]

I use Critical Defense or Fed HST's in 3 different calibers. I believe that the Hornady ammo is slightly more accurate. I also believe in UFO'S. ..............At 30 ft. or less, if someone can tell the difference between the two, they're a better man than I, and their name is Chuck Connors. I've used them both pretty exclusively without issue and their test results show well. They both just seem to function well in my firearms although in revolvers, everything seems to function well.:)


Seeing as U.F.O. stands for "Unidentified Flying Object" I would say everyone believes in those. The question then becomes, do you believe that aliens have or currently visit the earth?

Wait! That may be too far off topic....

[Barth]

Kahr MK40 Elite
Mostly Federal HST 180 gr 40 S&W.
Because it's crazy accurate and equally reliable.
I like Speer GDHP Short Barrel 180 gr too for the same reasons :cool:
Don't own a Kahr 9mm.
But if I did.
Federal HST Micro 150 gr 9mm.
https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/420x420/f71b9ce6ba28c65e4f068b37f230a20d/4/1/41f69b1d923e6db2687327690530d514.jpg

[wyntrout]

My picks are based on several things, but the Lucky Gunner tests figured high. I chose the 150-gr Micro HST for my wife, since I wanted a standard pressure for her Glock 43. I switched to it as well, because it looked better than the +P Speer 124-gr Gold Dots with penetration and expansion, without the + pressure. :)

I also got the PNW Arms 115-gr Tac Ops Solid Copper HP. I would have gotten the Winchester 147-gr Ranger T's, but they weren't available for a LONG time. Those were the best for expansion and penetration, and standard pressure loads.

Looking at the Lucky Gunner charts, I clicked twice on the top of the expansion column putting the greatest expansions to the top, then I looked at penetration consistency, and then standard pressure.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

[I_Like_Turtles]

Nice pics there!

I know a lot of people swear by HST, I bought a friend a box of it in .40 along with a mag carrier and spare mag as a graduation present when he graduated from law school.

I may get some to try in 9mm Parabellum in the 150 grain version. It may penetrate well but I'm curious about recoil.

Maybe as things relax I can get back to testing.

***

How do you like the extended and ported barrels?

[guido4198]

On the topic of carry ammo..everyone has their own opinion based on gel tests, meat tests, magazine articles, "advice from experts", etc.
I find myself wondering if there is a publicly available database of ACTUAL shooting reports that we're missing in this conversation..?? Someplace where all the available information has been gathered to allow people to read verifiable after action reports and see how various brands of handgun ammunition actually performed in a wide variety of conditions, then make up your own mind based on FACTS and field experience.

[I_Like_Turtles]

On the topic of carry ammo..everyone has their own opinion based on gel tests, meat tests, magazine articles, "advice from experts", etc.
I find myself wondering if there is a publicly available database of ACTUAL shooting reports that we're missing in this conversation..?? Someplace where all the available information has been gathered to allow people to read verifiable after action reports and see how various brands of handgun ammunition actually performed in a wide variety of conditions, then make up your own mind based on FACTS and field experience.

Now that would be great!

I do have an online essay written by a man claiming to be a coroner and he did something similar based on his own experience but there is no way to verify the results.

I might can post that here if anyone wants it.

Originally I found it on www.1911forum.com

[berettabone]

Kahr MK40 Elite
Mostly Federal HST 180 gr 40 S&W.
Because it's crazy accurate and equally reliable.
I like Speer GDHP Short Barrel 180 gr too for the same reasons :cool:
Don't own a Kahr 9mm.
But if I did.
Federal HST Micro 150 gr 9mm. I'll have to agree...…………...I've shot more Fed 180 gr. HST .40 cal. than any other ammo I've used.:)

[berettabone]

On the topic of carry ammo..everyone has their own opinion based on gel tests, meat tests, magazine articles, "advice from experts", etc.
I find myself wondering if there is a publicly available database of ACTUAL shooting reports that we're missing in this conversation..?? Someplace where all the available information has been gathered to allow people to read verifiable after action reports and see how various brands of handgun ammunition actually performed in a wide variety of conditions, then make up your own mind based on FACTS and field experience. If you do some searching, you can find certain actual shooting reports...………………………………….finding out the ammo manufacturer used could be impossible.

[kwh]

Paul Harrell has an interesting youtube treatise on why coroners reports are unreliable. This is based on his actual real world experience and observations. Enlightening read.
Federal had a report out not long ago on pistol bullets for self defense. Several facts I found interesting.
They can make a bullet perform anyway they want to. The trick is to balance expansion with penetration.
No such thing as a temporary wound cavity unless the velocity is 2300 fps or above.
Foot lbs of energy is irrelevant. What matters is size of hole and penetration.

[guido4198]

KWH hit the nail on the head ( so to speak) .
Think about the two ends of the spectrum. At one end is a thin pointed blade.. think: a 24 in ice pick.
You can run that thing completely through an attacker... full penetration, but it’s not going to reliably STOP the attack instantly.
OTOH... if you deliver a full swing blow to an attacker with a 16 pound sledge hammer, you’ll stop the attacker in his tracks... zero penetration.
we can’t carry a launcher to deliver that hammer blow so we go for a compromise.

[Bawanna]

45's close as we can come. And it's original design was to knock down an opponent, or slow him down. The 38's of the time weren't getting it done.

No guarantee of a one stop shop no matter what a person carries, short of maybe a coach gun with buck shot.

16lb sledge would do it but then somebody would want to pocket carry it and we'd be down to a 13oz sledge.
Course the bad guy might not just stand there and let us take a swing with the 16lber but it's a fine idea and the analogy is spot on.

[Armybrat]

I use Critical Defense or Fed HST's in 3 different calibers. I believe that the Hornady ammo is slightly more accurate. I also believe in UFO'S. ..............At 30 ft. or less, if someone can tell the difference between the two, they're a better man than I, and their name is Chuck Connors. I've used them both pretty exclusively without issue and their test results show well. They both just seem to function well in my firearms although in revolvers, everything seems to function well.:)
Same here for the 9mm & .380.

[I_Like_Turtles]

I saw the Paul Harrell video where he explained why coroner reports may not be reliable.

In 2012 I went to .45 ACP because I reasoned "I may only get one shot, I want it to be the best it can be." I still carry a .45 some but I've since decided to go for heavier weapon and smaller caliber trying to get rid of the flinch I seem to have developed in the last 15 years.

[BubbleHead]

I've been carrying Underwood Xtreme Defender +P 65gr in my PM9 since day one. They have less felt recoil and they shoot flatter.

[DavidR]

I've been carrying Underwood Xtreme Defender +P 65gr in my PM9 since day one. They have less felt recoil and they shoot flatter.

I'm really liking 65 grain 9mm. I know of three offerings: Underwood (with the Lehigh Xtreme Defender) and Inceptor and NOVX (with the ARX). All of them offer standard pressure or plus P. These rounds significantly reduce muzzle flip compared to a 124 grain Speer or Federal hollow point. And man are they loud too!

[guido4198]

I saw the Paul Harrell video where he explained why coroner reports may not be reliable.

In 2012 I went to .45 ACP because I reasoned "I may only get one shot, I want it to be the best it can be." I still carry a .45 some but I've since decided to go for heavier weapon and smaller caliber trying to get rid of the flinch I seem to have developed in the last 15 years.
I was one of those who would only carry a .45acp for years. With all the options available in carry guns and ammo these days, I've gotten comfortable with 9mm and good ammo.

[berettabone]

I saw the Paul Harrell video where he explained why coroner reports may not be reliable.

In 2012 I went to .45 ACP because I reasoned "I may only get one shot, I want it to be the best it can be." I still carry a .45 some but I've since decided to go for heavier weapon and smaller caliber trying to get rid of the flinch I seem to have developed in the last 15 years. In many cases, the caliber has nothing to do with a flinch, but the trigger type/style has everything to do with it, unless your really recoil sensitive.

[Ralph III]

I saw the Paul Harrell video where he explained why coroner reports may not be reliable.

In 2012 I went to .45 ACP because I reasoned "I may only get one shot, I want it to be the best it can be." I still carry a .45 some but I've since decided to go for heavier weapon and smaller caliber trying to get rid of the flinch I seem to have developed in the last 15 years.

I agree with berrettabone that the caliber has little to do with the flinch you've developed. I don't agree it's a trigger issue though but that can contribute. It's really an anticipation and lack of concentration issue. There are a couple of things you can do to overcome it.

1. Refrain from going to the range for a while and instead practice a lot of dry firing at home. You want to re-train your brain to pull the trigger minus the flinch. Practice, practice, practice!

2. When you go to the range I suggest starting out with instinctive type shooting first (not aiming). You just want to concentrate on executing a smooth trigger pull. Accuracy is not the goal here.

3. Now begin sight shooting and be sure to really concentrate on follow through. You want to try and get and keep the gun on target as quickly as possible after firing each round. This can be a methodical practice whereas....One shot, back on target and hold......One shot, back on target and hold (etc). This is an excellent method that will improve your trigger control and target focus which is always the main goal.

4. Incorporate snap caps while at the range. This will reveal any flinch and help you to correct it.

There are a few other things that you can do but these things will help a lot to correct a flinch. I didn't mean to hijack the thread but just wanted to throw that out there.

In regards to carry ammo. I like Fiocchi for my .380's and Federal HST for my 9mm.

God Bless,
Ralph

[I_Like_Turtles]

Threads often stray and really, that's a beautiful thing. I've been on a forum before that was so strict, that alone was really stressful as it caused me to be anxious about asking any question at all.

I used to be able to shoot anything without a flinch! Other guys were the opposite but I could shoot on and on, no matter what the recoil, and just keep going.

I had started the "for every pulled shot, do 10 dry fires" right before the virus came.

[berettabone]

The first Kahr that I owned caused me to flinch in the beginning. 9mm shouldn't be a recoil problem. It was the long trigger pull. I started out shooting revolvers, but never had as long a pull with the trigger. An anticipation wait was enough to cause me to start a flinch, especially after shooting sa/da. I can't relate to a flinch caused by caliber...……………………...If a person were to shoot nothing but Kahr's all day, I'm sure that you could cure a flinch in no time. It's when you change firearms/triggers that a flinch can sneak in, due to that long pull. Any firearm with a long pull could be an issue if you shoot other handguns. It's frustrating because it is a concentration thing. You've shot these guns a zillion times, yet you still have an issue. Whenever I shoot now, I shoot a semi sa/da, and a revolver. Totally different triggers, but it keeps the " yips " away for me...……….I carry/shoot .38 +P, .357, and .40 which helps me keep the anticipation thing at bay.

[Ralph III]

I recently developed a minor flinch in my older age as well. That is something I never experienced in my youth. It will typically occur once while at the range. I am always able to stop the process prior to shooting though. I just re-focus and then no more issues for the rest of the visit.

My issue is exactly as Berrettabone describes. While trying to decide on a carry gun last year I tried out a lot of different pistols. So at some point I would lose my concentration and begin anticipating. This typically occurred as I went from one pistol to the other. Now that I settled on my Kahr S9 and getting used to it, the flinch is becoming rare and I hope to have it fully eliminated soon. I love the triggers on these guns, btw.

God Bless,
Ralph

[King Rat]

I agree with berrettabone that the caliber has little to do with the flinch you've developed. I don't agree it's a trigger issue though but that can contribute. It's really an anticipation and lack of concentration issue. There are a couple of things you can do to overcome it.

1. Refrain from going to the range for a while and instead practice a lot of dry firing at home. You want to re-train your brain to pull the trigger minus the flinch. Practice, practice, practice!

2. When you go to the range I suggest starting out with instinctive type shooting first (not aiming). You just want to concentrate on executing a smooth trigger pull. Accuracy is not the goal here.

3. Now begin sight shooting and be sure to really concentrate on follow through. You want to try and get and keep the gun on target as quickly as possible after firing each round. This can be a methodical practice whereas....One shot, back on target and hold......One shot, back on target and hold (etc). This is an excellent method that will improve your trigger control and target focus which is always the main goal.

4. Incorporate snap caps while at the range. This will reveal any flinch and help you to correct it.

There are a few other things that you can do but these things will help a lot to correct a flinch. I didn't mean to hijack the thread but just wanted to throw that out there.

In regards to carry ammo. I like Fiocchi for my .380's and Federal HST for my 9mm.

God Bless,
Ralph


Personally I believe any flinching is not the trigger. At least not for someone skilled with and use to a DAO. I believe it comes from not concentrating on the target. When the shooter concentrates and places all focus on the target his muscle memory ingrained skills with the DA trigger just follow along naturally. Just like a pitcher in baseball. Focus on where the ball is going to go. Once he starts to focus on his form he is not focusing on the target. In shooting, your mind and eyes have to see the bullet going to that target.
When I shoot, I barely even see the front sight and do not use the rear sight but ever so lightly if at all. In fact have blackened out my rear sights. Way too distracting. It is my belief that today's gun culture has so many new people shooting and spending so much time talking about the need for a light crisp trigger started because so many "Target Shoot" their Defense guns.

When I was teaching my son how to shoot a DAO, and he started getting off target, I stopped him. Told him to put the gun down. Now just look at your target, focus on the target and where that bullet is going to go in your MIND. Now pickup the gun and do not use your sights at all. Just pull the gun up and focus on the target and nothing else and shoot rapidly. It worked.

I shoot difficult shots to a target much better shooting quickly that I can target shooting a DAO gun. The longer trigger of them is never long to me, unless I try and bullsey a target and start to take a lot of time and stage the trigger. It is at that time, I am thinking more about the trigger than the target.
So, just try and focus on the target, pull the gun up and shoot. Your brain and muscle memory skills for your hand and finger are already there. And they do not want your interference. They just want you to tell them where to place the bullet.

[berettabone]

I recently developed a minor flinch in my older age as well. That is something I never experienced in my youth. It will typically occur once while at the range. I am always able to stop the process prior to shooting though. I just re-focus and then no more issues for the rest of the visit.

My issue is exactly as Berrettabone describes. While trying to decide on a carry gun last year I tried out a lot of different pistols. So at some point I would lose my concentration and begin anticipating. This typically occurred as I went from one pistol to the other. Now that I settled on my Kahr S9 and getting used to it, the flinch is becoming rare and I hope to have it fully eliminated soon. I love the triggers on these guns, btw.

God Bless,
Ralph I find it interesting that some suggest that concentration is the key, not the trigger or the caliber. Then they go purchase, carry and shoot .380's because they can't handle the recoil of anything larger without a flinch, or don't have confidence that they can hit what they aim at with anything larger. Going back to range time and conceal carry qualifications, the most accurate shooters were using sa/da firearms. The people struggling to qualify were using firearms with long trigger pulls. Especially new shooters. Kahr's, other long da pulls, and revolvers. They didn't seem to have nearly as many issues with sa/da firearms. A bit more challenging as far as operation, but much more accurate and confident with those types of triggers. It's what I have seen and experienced over the years. Of course concentration is a key factor, but these types of long triggers DO cause flinching in many shooters. When I qualified at a shooting club with others, the next time I saw some of the members, they were toting different firearms. There weren't too many with da only firearms. Women especially...……...they were told by someone that revolvers were the best thing for them and they were shooting all over the place and developing flinches because of it. They go to a da/sa firearm and the flinches disappear.

[berettabone]

Personally I believe any flinching is not the trigger. At least not for someone skilled with and use to a DAO. I believe it comes from not concentrating on the target. When the shooter concentrates and places all focus on the target his muscle memory ingrained skills with the DA trigger just follow along naturally. Just like a pitcher in baseball. Focus on where the ball is going to go. Once he starts to focus on his form he is not focusing on the target. In shooting, your mind and eyes have to see the bullet going to that target.
When I shoot, I barely even see the front sight and do not use the rear sight but ever so lightly if at all. In fact have blackened out my rear sights. Way too distracting. It is my belief that today's gun culture has so many new people shooting and spending so much time talking about the need for a light crisp trigger started because so many "Target Shoot" their Defense guns
When I was teaching my son how to shoot a DAO, and he started getting off target, I stopped him. Told him to put the gun down. Now just look at your target, focus on the target and where that bullet is going to go in your MIND. Now pickup the gun and do not use your sights at all. Just pull the gun up and focus on the target and nothing else and shoot rapidly. It worked.

I shoot difficult shots to a target much better shooting quickly that I can target shooting a DAO gun. The longer trigger of them is never long to me, unless I try and bullsey a target and start to take a lot of time and stage the trigger. It is at that time, I am thinking more about the trigger than the target.
So, just try and focus on the target, pull the gun up and shoot. Your brain and muscle memory skills for your hand and finger are already there. And they do not want your interference. They just want you to tell them where to place the bullet. Do you know how many skilled dao shooters there are out there??????? Not many in the whole scheme of things. Most people I know never grew up or learned shooting with a revolver like I started out doing. It's a reason why many people DON'T choose firearms with Kahr like triggers. It's a reason why Glock's are so popular. They never get rid of the flinching with triggers that go on for days. You say it yourself. You shoot much better shooting fast and not using a dao firearm. Tells it all...…………………………………………………...trigger, trigger, trigger...…………………………………………………………………………...

[King Rat]

I find it interesting that some suggest that concentration is the key, not the trigger or the caliber. Then they go purchase, carry and shoot .380's because they can't handle the recoil of anything larger without a flinch, or don't have confidence that they can hit what they aim at with anything larger. Going back to range time and conceal carry qualifications, the most accurate shooters were using sa/da firearms. The people struggling to qualify were using firearms with long trigger pulls. Especially new shooters. Kahr's, other long da pulls, and revolvers. They didn't seem to have nearly as many issues with sa/da firearms. A bit more challenging as far as operation, but much more accurate and confident with those types of triggers. It's what I have seen and experienced over the years. Of course concentration is a key factor, but these types of long triggers DO cause flinching in many shooters. When I qualified at a shooting club with others, the next time I saw some of the members, they were toting different firearms. There weren't too many with da only firearms. Women especially...……...they were told by someone that revolvers were the best thing for them and they were shooting all over the place and developing flinches because of it. They go to a da/sa firearm and the flinches disappear.

I really have no idea what you are talking about? Who goes and purchases a 380 because they cannot handle the recoil of anything larger? Never heard this before and certainly not the people I shoot with over the many years. Most people that purchase a new 380 think the recoil is stout and cannot even operate a DAO and end up getting a pistol like the LCPll. I am not speaking for everyone, but I certainly do not have a problem with recoil unless I shoot something like a Snubbie with in 357. I do shoot a Snubbie in 9mm all the time. Usually about 200 rds per session.
By the way, I did not grow up shooting revolvers. That came later in life. And I do own light striker fired triggers, but never carry one any longer. I sure do not have any problem shooting larger duty guns with any kind of trigger.
I did not start my son off with a DAO. I started him off with a single action Revolver than a semi auto 22cal. And then striker fired guns and then moved him onto DAO. I also bought him a LCR22 and told him to practice with it all the time. He did and can shoot the heck out of it. About a year ago I bought him a DAO Beretta Nano which he is very competent.

I am guessing you are talking about new inexperienced shooters. If that is true, they I would agree.

If you need a light striker fired trigger that is fine. But please to not lump people that shoot them as having to just buy a 380 because they cannot shoot other calibers due to recoil. Maybe I am reading your post wrong. And maybe the folks you talk about Qualifying cannot do as well with a DAO, but you can bet the guys I know that shoot them all the time would have no problem at all.

[joeb]

I really have no idea what you are talking about? Who goes and purchases a 380 because they cannot handle the recoil of anything larger? Never heard this before and certainly not the people I shoot with over the many years. Most people that purchase a new 380 think the recoil is stout and cannot even operate a DAO and end up getting a pistol like the LCPll. I am not speaking for everyone, but I certainly do not have a problem with recoil unless I shoot something like a Snubbie with in 357. I do shoot a Snubbie in 9mm all the time. Usually about 200 rds per session.
By the way, I did not grow up shooting revolvers. That came later in life. And I do own light striker fired triggers, but never carry one any longer. I sure do not have any problem shooting larger duty guns with any kind of trigger.
I did not start my son off with a DAO. I started him off with a single action Revolver than a semi auto 22cal. And then striker fired guns and then moved him onto DAO. I also bought him a LCR22 and told him to practice with it all the time. He did and can shoot the heck out of it. About a year ago I bought him a DAO Beretta Nano which he is very competent.

I am guessing you are talking about new inexperienced shooters. If that is true, they I would agree.

If you need a light striker fired trigger that is fine. But please to not lump people that shoot them as having to just buy a 380 because they cannot shoot other calibers due to recoil. Maybe I am reading your post wrong. And maybe the folks you talk about Qualifying cannot do as well with a DAO, but you can bet the guys I know that shoot them all the time would have no problem at all.

I agree. I like carrying certain 380's at times because they are small and for no other reason. I'm looking for a P380 because of it's size. My Sig P365 and MK9 aren't big but bigger as is my on order Glock 42. My wife carries a LCPII only because of it's size and can fire just about any pistol without recoil issues.

[berettabone]

I'll help you out. Back to my original statement. Long triggers cause flinching with many shooters. That's it. No rocket science. You disagreed. You have to realize that the average shooter isn't someone like you or the guys you know. These are people with one firearm, maybe 2. These people probably represent 75% of the gunowners in the U.S. They never master the long pull. A long trigger pull just isn't for most people/shooters. It causes flinching. Unless they never practice and just use it for strictly carry purposes. I carried in rotation an MK9 for 9+ years. I've shot revolvers for many more. I never fight with semi or revolver triggers but always had to fight the flinch with the MK9. Just like RIII stated, it would happen at the range, and you could stop it after a few shots and some more concentration. But it was always there. That's how I can make the statement about triggers. It happened to me, and apparently I'm not the only one. I see all of the firearms in my area that are being sold or traded in. Most have long trigger pulls. Lots of smaller revolvers. I don't see many new Kahr's in the area, but do see a lot of used ones. Recoil and concentration aren't the reason. The trigger is the reason. It gives them the flinch. There is no other reason not to like a long smooth trigger. I liked the Kahr type trigger myself, but it was just too long.

[I_Like_Turtles]

One day without internet and this thread explodes. LOL

I shoot my snub nose revolvers DA without any problems but my CW 45 had started getting to me. At one time I was great with my P9 but here of late, flinching. That's why I went back to a K9, trying to tamp down the flinch.

I have to go now but if internet still up when I get back, I'll read through all the replies. Thanks guys and take care.

[Ralph III]

I didn't have time to read all of the follow up posts.


In regards to the flinch: IMHO it is due to a lack of focus and/or discipline issue period. When I was younger and hunted/shot on a regular basis my concentration was such that full focus was on my target. So the trigger pull and the gun firing was almost an unconscious act and it didn't matter what weapon I had in my hand.

Having said that. YES, the trigger action can contribute and I believe YES the caliber can also contribute to a flinch. Because there is something about those aspects that can be unnerving to shooters. However, it all comes back to a loss of focus or lack of discipline. If your focus and discipline were where it should be then it wouldn't matter what gun you have in your hand. You simply focus on your target and let the shot occur. Anticipation and loss of concentration is where people get in trouble!

This is why practicing or learning on a revolver is a good thing. Because if you can master the long and heavy trigger pull then it's all the more easy to master a lighter and shorter trigger pull. Notice most people, especially less proficient shooters, will always elect to cock the hammer first on a DA/SA gun before shooting. Why? Because they are not comfortable or confident with the long and heavy (DA) trigger pull. That is not the guns fault though. They simply chose to create a crutch for themselves instead of honing or improving their skills.

There is actually video of Jerry Miculek suffering a minor flinch as he is attempting a shot. He immediately aborts the shot and begins to discuss something completely unrelated. Most people didn't catch it but it happened and I was actually stunned. It however is just a reminder that even the best of us can suffer an occasional flinch. It's not really due to the gun though, as surely Miculek has shot many guns in his lifetime with millions of rounds down range, but as we suffer a loss of discipline or concentration.


God Bless,
Ralph

[getsome]

Ever heard of a guy named Ralph Guldahl? Probably not but Ralph was the best golfer nobody ever heard of so go with me here and it all ties in to the flinch thing....Ralph Guldahl between 1937 and 1939 won 3 majors, 2 US Opens 16 tournaments and the 1939 Masters....It was said that Ralph had the most naturally sweet perfect club swing anybody had ever seen until he was asked to write an instructional book on how to swing a golf club and after really thinking about it and trying to narrow down how he was able to hit a golf ball with such accuracy it totally messed him up and he couldn't do it anymore and in 1942 Ralph, the Tiger Woods of his day walked away from the game and started selling cars....Now this is somewhat like what happens when we shoot, we just think way too much and don't do what comes natural....I grew up shooting revolvers and that was the thing I really liked about Kahr pistols and only own one revolver that has a trigger anywhere near as nice as my Kahr PM9 which I can shoot better than any other pistol I own I think because I have small hands and can really get a tight grip with both hands and just concentrate on the front sight and just squeeze until bang....What I'm really trying to say here is just do what's natural and feels right and don't listen to the range experts then find a pistol that fits your hand and go with it and above all, just don't over think things and find your own natural swing.....

[Ed M]

.......just concentrate on the front sight and just squeeze until bang....

This.

I was taught to shoot at a young age by my Dad. Dad was a sniper during WWII. I'm here because he was a great shot, and survived the conflict.

I can still hear his advice - Keep the front sight/crosshairs on the exact spot you want to hit, breathe normally, and squeeze the trigger smoothly until the gun goes bang.

IMO, the Kahr trigger makes this easy. No wall, no clue or change in feel - just the same smooth and steady pull until bang. It's a surprise as to WHEN it goes bang.

Good trigger discipline made easy.

[Ralph III]

Boy have we indeed hijacked this thread. :) Just to keep it on point, bullets and guns go together! Like apple pie and America!:Amflag2:


Ever heard of a guy named Ralph Guldahl? Probably not but Ralph was the best golfer nobody ever heard of so go with me here and it all ties in to the flinch thing....Ralph Guldahl between 1937 and 1939 won 3 majors, 2 US Opens 16 tournaments and the 1939 Masters....It was said that Ralph had the most naturally sweet perfect club swing anybody had ever seen until he was asked to write an instructional book on how to swing a golf club and after really thinking about it and trying to narrow down how he was able to hit a golf ball with such accuracy it totally messed him up and he couldn't do it anymore and in 1942 Ralph, the Tiger Woods of his day walked away from the game and started selling cars....Now this is somewhat like what happens when we shoot, we just think way too much and don't do what comes natural....I grew up shooting revolvers and that was the thing I really liked about Kahr pistols and only own one revolver that has a trigger anywhere near as nice as my Kahr PM9 which I can shoot better than any other pistol I own I think because I have small hands and can really get a tight grip with both hands and just concentrate on the front sight and just squeeze until bang....What I'm really trying to say here is just do what's natural and feels right and don't listen to the range experts then find a pistol that fits your hand and go with it and above all, just don't over think things and find your own natural swing.....

That's a good analogy getsome! I'm an avid tennis player and have given others lots of instruction in regards. The story of the golfer is actually a gamesmanship ploy that some athletes (who resort to that) have used against their opponents. Brad Gilbert wrote a book called "Winning Ugly" in regards to such. It's actually an ongoing joke with one of our senior players, who was very good in his youth, when he resorted to such a ploy by asking his opponent to describe exactly how he served. The guy was serving great up until that point but soon began to falter. In this instance, the goal is to get your opponent to become conscious of a specific stroke and consequently lose proper focus or even falter. A disciplined athlete will shrug such gamesmanship off though or even use it to further motivate them. Just FYI, in defense of our senior player as I dislike such silly tactics, it was mostly in jest as he was playing a friend of his. That's why it's an inside joke with them albeit it cost the guy the match.


I would like to expound upon your comment though because shooting is a little different than most sports. It's really not a "natural" thing to pull a trigger and consequently cause an explosion right in front of your face. That's really not a natural or casual act. So just like other sports it takes a lot of practice to become highly proficient and disciplined at such. Sometimes an athlete, even great athletes like Federer or Nadal, will develop a hitch in a shot. So what they do is they go back to basics. They try and figure out where they are messing up and then correct it through practice (repetition).

It's the same with even highly skilled shooters. Sometimes you have to make sure you are executing your basics properly in order to correct an issue. So if someone develops a flinch, they need to get back to the basics of their shooting style and then practice, practice, practice. You are creating muscle memory when you do this. That's why it's important to correct an issue ASAP because you don't want to create muscle memory of a bad habit that has arisen.

I agree with you and Ed M 100% in regards to the Kahr trigger! I find that they are highly conducive for the surprise trigger break. I don't care for the standard striker fired pistols with all the slop and then the wall. For me, the Kahr trigger system allows even greater accuracy. It's an absolute pleasure shooting my S9.

God Bless,
Ralph

[getsome]

Ralph, you are so right but thread high jacking is pretty much the norm around here but that's ok and we sometimes get back to the original topic which in this case I have no idea of but anyway I tried tennis once but got so tired of looking for balls in the woods I gave up, game looks easy and so much fun but it's really, really hard and I hate to sweat so had to quit that and find something else so I tried going to the golf driving range...I bought an expensive set of clubs and figured, how hard could this be? Well it too is much harder than it looks and I could never figure out why I was doing the exact same thing every single dang blessed time but the $&%* balls wouldn't cooperate at all, (probably out of round)...Like everything in life things are harder than they look and shooting is no different....I was very lucky that my grandmother bought me a S&W K22 revolver when I was 14 for my birthday present and I wore that little gun out and got to where I could shoot pretty good with 14 year old eyes....What I really hate and you see so many YouTube videos of some a-hole giving a large caliber pistol to an inexperienced shooter (girlfriend) and then having a big belly laugh when they almost hurt themself from the recoil blast...What happens then is causing that person to always fear and hate shooting and one who will never learn to enjoy the shooting sports....I still enjoy range time but with mid 60's eyesight I am humbled and have to adapt to what I can do now....Last couple range trips I started off really awful so like you said I went back to basics and ran the target close up to 10 feet or so and started hitting again the moved it slowly back to my normal distance of 15 yards or so and did better...It does take practice, practice, practice and the older you get the more it takes to stay even half way decent but the point is to have fun and always try to get better at it but like Dirty Harry Callahan said, A man's got to know his limitations...

[Ralph III]

That's good stuff getsome! Yes, tennis as well as golf takes a lot of skill as well as strength/stamina (for tennis anyhow). I've always had a lot of natural athleticism and that carried over into many other venues so was lucky/blessed in that fashion. Happy shooting!

Take care,
Ralph

[berettabone]

https://gundigest.com/handguns/concealed-carry/concealed-carry-380-acp-self-defense

[berettabone]

https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/is-the-380-acp-an-adequate-caliber-for-defensive-use

[berettabone]

https://primitivesurvivors.com/380-self-defense/

[I_Like_Turtles]

Getting back on topic aaaannnndddd hoping to keep my thread from turning into one that gets shut down......

I might be able to do some ammo testing once the weather improves.

[DavidR]

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

[dustnchips]

@DavidR A great report on field results instead of gell tests and speculation. Though he did speculate about a couple of things, he told you it was speculation and told you his reasoning. I will continue to carry my 380 around my home area with confidence. When I practice I empty the gun at one or two targets in rapid fire. I tend to think that three or four rounds will discourage most people. These statistics make me question why I carry the 9 except that I do shoot it a tad bit better.

[getsome]

Thanks berettabone and DavidR for posting that information...After all that data it's still the same, there's no magic caliber/bullet combo that is the clear winner....I have only known one person who has been shot and he is my next door neighbor Mr. Horace who is a retired Police Officer....Back in the mid 70's he chased a guy in a stolen car into a parking lot and blocked him in and as soon as he got out of his cruiser the guy jumped out and started shooting...Horace said he was hit in his left shoulder and started to turn to go back to his car to get his shotgun but before he could get there the guy shot him in his right side and then put three more into his back and only missed once which hit the car door...This was back in the day before officers wore vests so Horace ended up with 5 rounds of .357 magnum to his body, 4 to his torso so it's nothing short of a miracle he survived that day......The guy took off running but they caught him and Horace spent many weeks in the hospital undergoing several operations to repair the damage but he lived and went on to work 10 more years on the force before retiring....Horace is one of the nicest guys I have ever known and would give you the shirt off his back and is one very lucky guy to have survived all that but I guess it just wasn't his day to go....I joke with him all the time and call him "Superman"...He just shakes his head and laughs.....

[getsome]

So as to keep this thread on track, has anybody shot any Super Vel ammo?....Dillon Precision Products out of Scottsdale Arizona 800-223-4570 sends me a really great monthly catalog called "The Blue Press" with their many shooting and reloading products and they offer Super Vel ammo in .38 special +p 90 grain solid copper JHP at 1300 fps from a j frame along with a .380 load they call "Pocket Rocket" 80 grain copper JHP rated at 1100 fps from a LCP....They also offer two 9mm loads, a +p and a subsonic loading along with a 10mm and .45 acp +p 160 grain copper JHP....That .380 round looks interesting and the catalog alone is great so call them and get on their mailing list...I have ordered several things from them and customer service is first rate and if you are a reloader you probably already know all about Dillon reloading presses and accessories which are the Cadillac of anything reloading.....So anybody shooting any Super Vel ammo?

[Ralph III]

Berrettabone. The websites you posted in regards to the lack of effectiveness of the .380acp are to be taken with a grain of salt because they are highly flawed. Their tests are extremely limited and flawed because they are not testing ANY of the highly proficient .380acp rounds.

The most thorough tests done in regards to the effectiveness of .380acp self defense rounds, in regards to FBI gel tests, were done by AmmoQuest as found HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts). This has already been pointed out. In addition, REAL WORLD statistics show the .380acp to be a highly effective round with even greater results then some larger and more popular rounds. This has been pointed out already as well.

Let's please not make this into another .380acp debate. That has already occurred.

To be on point for the OP though.

1. I carry Federal HST hollow points in my 9mm. These are highly effective and popular rounds.
2. I carry Fiocchi Extrema or Precision One hollow points in my .380acp. Those rounds as well as others meet the FBI ballistic standard. They perform very well in those tests and in real world tests as I have been shooting them for many years now. Lehigh XD and XP are very popular among many folks also and seem to perform well.

Take care,
Ralph

[King Rat]

The caliber wars seem to never quite on the internet. Like it or not the 380 is a viable EDC cartridge and improving all the time. And as always there are the People that carry them, shoot them and believe in them and understand what the tool is for. And on every internet forum there are the SAME individuals that will try and prove them wrong and disparage the round. Like some kind of quest to help mankind.

Watch this video. And maybe you will get some great info from it. Most people that carry are NOT police, not military. They are Civilians that carry each and every day and want to stop a threat. You need pure killing power, then NO pistol is the right carry weapon. You want to tote around a 2-3 lb firearm each and every day then go for it. If you do not like the 380 or the 9mm then get a 44 mag. Who cares?
By the way, this Video is much more recent than some of the articles.


Maybe I Was Wrong About Pocket Pistols



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv6PxB2TqLM

[I_Like_Turtles]

The only .380 I am considering now is the Browning 1911 .380. My GF really likes it but we'll have to go someplace where she can try one out. She has small hands but really likes the look of the "Black Label" version. It all depends on what she likes though.

[King Rat]

The only .380 I am considering now is the Browning 1911 .380. My GF really likes it but we'll have to go someplace where she can try one out. She has small hands but really likes the look of the "Black Label" version. It all depends on what she likes though.

I doubt any places that rent guns would have one. I believe they sell them at Cabela's and Bass pro ships. Over the years I have known many women that like the Sig 238. Easy shooter, much smaller and lighter than the Browning. Personally not a fan of SA guns for carry, but I would have her shoot one if she is convinced that is the way she wants to go.

[I_Like_Turtles]

I doubt any places that rent guns would have one. I believe they sell them at Cabela's and Bass pro ships. Over the years I have known many women that like the Sig 238. Easy shooter, much smaller and lighter than the Browning. Personally not a fan of SA guns for carry, but I would have her shoot one if she is convinced that is the way she wants to go.

Ugh, really? I was going to try Bud's Gun Shop. That's only a couple hours drive away.....maybe 4 hours? I'd call them first. I've nearly bought one myself a couple of times.

Her interest in the Browning is likely due in large part to my interest in the 1911...plus she likes how my S&W 1911PC looks.....I named it "NFG" for "Novita's Favorite Gun."

I'll encourage her to avoid ultra small weapons like the Sig 238.....no grip safety and the smaller a weapon gets, the harder it is to shoot it well. As much as I can, I'll encourage her to carry whatever she is carrying in an actual holster on her body. That's not so easily done for a woman.

[berettabone]

Ugh, really? I was going to try Bud's Gun Shop. That's only a couple hours drive away.....maybe 4 hours? I'd call them first. I've nearly bought one myself a couple of times.

Her interest in the Browning is likely due in large part to my interest in the 1911...plus she likes how my S&W 1911PC looks.....I named it "NFG" for "Novita's Favorite Gun."

I'll encourage her to avoid ultra small weapons like the Sig 238.....no grip safety and the smaller a weapon gets, the harder it is to shoot it well. As much as I can, I'll encourage her to carry whatever she is carrying in an actual holster on her body. That's not so easily done for a woman. I wish you luck with your GF...……………………...I tried for years to get MW to use a holster. She never wears a belt, so she uses a Remora and a front pocket holster. Says they are the easiest, most comfortable holsters. It's tough because women don't wear belts. Their hips keep their pants up. They keep her carrying so I don't argue. She's been carrying since 2014.

[Bawanna]

^^^ exactly this. My wife won't carry on person, has it in her purse which is only slightly better than having in the underwear drawer at home but better than nothing.
Not a bad thing most women are nicer to look at when they don't have a big Glock bulge ruining the picture.
Seriously doubt the GF would carry the Browning on person, she being small/petite no doubt.
Bud's should undoubtedly have one to look at all that being said.

[I_Like_Turtles]

^^^ exactly this. My wife won't carry on person, has it in her purse which is only slightly better than having in the underwear drawer at home but better than nothing.
Not a bad thing most women are nicer to look at when they don't have a big Glock bulge ruining the picture.
Seriously doubt the GF would carry the Browning on person, she being small/petite no doubt.
Bud's should undoubtedly have one to look at all that being said.

Glock bulge? How about just open carrying? I was lucky enough to meet this gorgeous twenty-something open carrying a Glock in an active retention holster at Chick Fi Lay one day last fall. Charming young lady too. Of course, I wasn't as lucky as her husband is!

We'll have to see what works for my girl, off-body carry is most certainly out though.

[Bawanna]

There's a few things I don't adhere to.

Thumb Breaks
380's in general
Pocket Carry
and the biggy Open Carry especially by woman.

[Ralph III]

The caliber wars seem to never quite on the internet. Like it or not the 380 is a viable EDC cartridge and improving all the time. And as always there are the People that carry them, shoot them and believe in them and understand what the tool is for. And on every internet forum there are the SAME individuals that will try and prove them wrong and disparage the round. Like some kind of quest to help mankind.

Watch this video. And maybe you will get some great info from it. Most people that carry are NOT police, not military. They are Civilians that carry each and every day and want to stop a threat. You need pure killing power, then NO pistol is the right carry weapon. You want to tote around a 2-3 lb firearm each and every day then go for it. If you do not like the 380 or the 9mm then get a 44 mag. Who cares?
By the way, this Video is much more recent than some of the articles.


Maybe I Was Wrong About Pocket Pistols



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv6PxB2TqLM

That was an excellent link King Rat! It goes hand in hand with what I had stated and referenced in the last thread that degraded into a .380acp debate. Civilian and Military/LE considerations are not the same.

Take care,
Ralph

[I_Like_Turtles]

Um, police are civilians too.......at least in America.

[getsome]

Ya'll be nice now or Bawanns's gonna have to go out and cut a switch....:p

[Bawanna]

No sir, I'm taking a plan from my daddy. Is a switch is needed yall will go cut your own.