Complimented two open carriers today in Lowe's.

[I_Like_Turtles]

You see open carry in the local Lowe's from time-to-time. Today a gentleman had the stereotypical nylon strap-over with spare mag pouch on holster. I complimented the man on open carry and asked what he was carrying. He said "G2." Not having any idea what that was, I asked. The man seemed a bit shocked I didn't know but explained that was a Taurus. We joked a bit and he gave me a fist bump (first one from a stranger since early March!).

Next up was a man with son, this time a Charles Daily 1911 in a Serpa retention holster. We spoke a bit and this guy told me he only open carried in retention holsters. He did have a reload and carry insurance. No less lethal option though. His 1911 was on Condition 3.....I don't think I've ever met anyone that carries with empty chamber. I was courteous and asked his reasoning. He explained it depended on the situation and that he had grandkids. He understood he'd have to begin his draw sooner to make time to rack the slide.

So two open carriers, both with at least one reload. No one else seemed to notice. Good conversation and fellowship.

*First man was black....so much for "blacks get shot on sight if they open carry." Nonsense as usual.

[DavidR]

Only guys open carrying around here are uniformed police officers.

[getsome]

Here in Georgia you see open carry a good bit especially in rural areas, I try not to pay attention to it and just go about my business, truth is I wish everybody went around heeled but concealed, probably have alot less problems that way....

[I_Like_Turtles]

Here in Georgia you see open carry a good bit, I try not to draw attention to it and just go about my business, truth is I wish everybody went around heeled, probably have alot less problems that way....

I'm an outgoing person by nature....as I told the first open carrier "we have to support each other."

Last time I open carried in that store was when it got too hot to keep my jacket on. My 1911 in a retention holster drew some compliments. The S&W Sc's grips are very nice.

It's definitely a deterrent.....just like armed security is respected a lot more than unarmed security. Just like how no bully picks fights with a bodybuilder.....they pick on those that appear weak, not those able to tear a man's arms off.

[Bawanna]

One way to look at it.

[340pd]

I see it and ignore it. On my way in to work as an RSO I am always carrying OWB and if I head into a grocery store to pick up donuts for the gang I will pull out my shirt to cover my firearm. I always felt open carry was just advertising and a possible invite to trouble. I would prefer that I do not have to explain myself to a security officer or cop because some Karen dials 911 and says "man with a gun".

[Armybrat]

In the 4 years since Texas passed handgun open carry (long gun open carry has always been legal), I have seen exactly two people availing themselves of that right.....a couple walking out of a Wendy’s burger joint.
Don’t do it myself, but to each his/her own.

[I_Like_Turtles]

I view it just like I view any other right.

There are people that exercise the right with class and those that are slovenly, or overbearing and even offensive. I prefer classy people, in all ways.

Open carry is certainly gaining steam in WV, slowly, but it's growing in popularity. I suspect the news of riots and general increase in chaos right now is a factor, but did not get to ask that yesterday.

Krogers has banned it, as has CVS, but management at both told me they did not enforce the ban on open carry. Since those two companies' rules changed, I have personally witnessed two people open carrying (in a kydex, non retention holster) and neither was spoken to by staff. I even asked one clerk about it (the open carrier was in line in front of me) and she said "I never saw it."

She probably didn't notice it. LOL I think most people assume anything on a side is a "large cell phone" or are just too oblivious to notice anything at all.

[FreeMe]

Purely anecdotal, but it seems to me that since we passed Constitutional carry here, I'm seeing fewer people carrying openly.

I don't have an opinion on which is better - open or concealed - because.....it depends. But when I see the open carrier being oblivious of his surroundings, such as the guy sitting at the counter in a diner with his back to the door and everyone else - that makes me shake my head.

[dustnchips]

It doesn't bother me a bit to see it, but I prefer to keep a low profile and conceal carry instead. If I ever have to use my weapon I sure hope there is an open carry person there to draw fire for me.

[jeepster09]

I see it and ignore it. On my way in to work as an RSO I am always carrying OWB and if I head into a grocery store to pick up donuts for the gang I will pull out my shirt to cover my firearm. I always felt open carry was just advertising and a possible invite to trouble. I would prefer that I do not have to explain myself to a security officer or cop because some Karen dials 911 and says "man with a gun".

Totally agree. When I was on PD I always watched open carry a little closer. Most that I dealt with had a BIG EGO problem wanting to show off their gun.
I also feel open carry makes you "first target" if bad guy is up to no good.

[Bawanna]

Exactomundo!^^^^^^

A couple years back when all the open carriers were testing cops knowledge of the laws even our town had a few that would walk around phone cameras in hand with AR's slung and pistols on their belt to see if they would get harrassed. On two occasions we heard they were walking, we call everybody available and went ahead of them so we could meet them. All of us of course open carrying, many in uniform. It was hilarious, they were soooooo looking for a confrontation.
The down fall is all the snow flakes calling in man with a gun. Yeah we know, nothing to worry about except he's a moron.

[dao]

As 340pd, jeepster and the colonel said, "...wanting to show off their gun. I also feel open carry makes you "first target" if bad guy is up to no good.

Yeah we know, nothing to worry about except he's a moron."

Funny how, in the two camps of open vs. concealed, those of us on the concealed side tend to share these thoughts. I've just never seen a good reason for letting the bad guy know that you're the one they should worry about first.

[I_Like_Turtles]

There are three very big problems with that view....

1). Bullies don't pick on muscular guys. If the argument is, "open carry attracts criminal attention," then muscular guys, wearing tank tops, would also invite attacks by bullies. Opposite is true.

2). Cops, most of whom open carry at all times, are not "shot on sight." If open carry itself caused the open carrier to be "shot first" then why are uniformed police (all who open carry) not commonly shot? In fact, the presence of uniformed police tends to deter criminal acts and presence. They go elsewhere. It's not the badge scaring them off, it's the sidearm.

3). Armed security gets a lot more respect than unarmed security.

The belief that "the bad guy will shoot the open carrier" simply does not hold water. Bad guys tend to avoid resistance, not seek it out.

I've never come in contact with the "2nd Amendment Auditor" nor do I know any or wish to know any. A great deal of that is driven by the addiction to social media and getting Youtube views.

The two times I open carried a rifle were in front of the local Marine recruiting office, after the one in TN was shot up (the one with the "gun free zone" sign). Both times police stopped by, thanked everyone, and shook everyone's hand. No one video taped it, although local news did a couple of stories (we didn't invite them nor did we give the reporter our names). We weren't there for Youtube views.

I didn't used to go for open carry but after giving it a try, it has its place, just like all rights. The ones you guys were turned off by are rather like with the LGBTQRSTUV12345 movement, there are classy folks and alas, many that are not classy at all. The ones that are unhinged get all the attention.

It's hard to quantify crimes that didn't happen, but this one is fairly well-reported.

https://nyccriminallawyer.com/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-in-kennesaw/

*During the recruiting office guarding, I'd go next door to use the bathroom. This was a tobacco shop and was maned by a single female. She told me "she had never felt more safe in her life."

Jeepster.....odd view. How many criminals, in your experience, open carried? How many robbers, etc., carried their firearms openly, in a holster?

[markman]

1). Bullies don't pick on muscular guys. If the argument is, "open carry attracts criminal attention," then muscular guys, wearing tank tops, would also invite attacks by bullies. Opposite is true.

While that might be true some of the time, it surely isn't true all the time. If a guy is to big or too tuff he'll either get shot or jumped by many (strength in numbers). Or he'll get sucker punched or hit with a weapon, If you have ever been in a jail or a prison, it happens all the time. It happens all the time on the streets. Thugs think way different than most common people.



2). Cops, most of whom open carry at all times, are not "shot on sight." If open carry itself caused the open carrier to be "shot first" then why are uniformed police (all who open carry) not commonly shot? In fact, the presence of uniformed police tends to deter criminal acts and presence. They go elsewhere. It's not the badge scaring them off, it's the sidearm.

Really? There sure seems to be a lot of Cops shot, shot at or ambushed lately.


3). Armed security gets a lot more respect than unarmed security.

Most thugs have no respect for security armed or not. Unfortunately that includes LE.

I agree with the above posters that open carry puts a target on your back, if you choose to do it that's your right and I support all 2nd Amendment rights.

[I_Like_Turtles]

Well then if you are so sure, you should be able to back that up with some numbers....we'll always have some outliers but I suspect those are so low as to be insignificant.

I attest, in general, bullies don't pick on or even jump muscular guys. Criminals are by nature lazy, if they weren't lazy they'd do honest work, attacking muscular guys involves more work, which is why they will almost always target those that appear to be weak or distracted. (Distraction outweighs all abilities, rather like how Pearl Harbor was decimated, they weren't paying much attention).

I think most will agree, the current climate regarding police is an aberration. Even now when a cop is shot it's generally big news and makes the news. Further, very few are assassinated, most seem to be shot in the process of enforcing the law. For your belief to be true, since it's about open carry self defenders, not police, police would have to be commonly shot without warning or without previous interaction with the attacker.

Again, for your belief to be true, you're going to have to show me some numbers. Having been an armed rental cop, I have seen first-hand how me being armed and that being clearly visible, had a deterrent effect on attackers (in those cases, would-be attackers). Guys would come into the store, see the uniform, look down at the gun, look up with mouth and eyes wide open, turn on their heels, and exit. I was open carrying on that job and when such interactions occurred, at least until it got cold and I put on a coat.

I'm not seeing hostility to open carry in this thread, disagreement with yes, but not hostility, and that's a good thing. Self defenders should support each other, no matter how one chooses to defend themselves. Those sworn to uphold the Constitution should, I imagine, want to uphold all of it, including all rights.

[berettabone]

I'd say that I open carry about 15% of the time and conceal about 85%.......................I do a lot of hiking(not as much as I used to) and have run in to poachers, and just strange people who make the hair on the back of my neck stand up. In these situations, I want these people to know I am armed immediately, whether they have a weapon or not. In my state, the farther north you go, the more open carry you will see. I talked to a guy from Oregon a while back at a friend's house. He was from the southern part of the state. He stated that most people open carry there because of the heavy pot trade in the area and the usual threatening animals.

[Armybrat]

Open carrying in rural areas and national & state park woodlands is a different thing than running to the store in urban areas, IMO.

While out at family land in the Texas Hill Country, I do open carry.... and would do the same if hiking in public lands in the back country of Colorado.

But I refrain from doing so here in suburbia and the metro area. My choice.

[I_Like_Turtles]

Good idea! You definitely want to project "not easy target" to such people. I haven't hiked in years but I'd open carry if I did. Open carry allows one to carry larger and more powerful handguns than concealed carry.....that's another reason I open carry when mowing. I'd much rather draw my 1911 than my .38 on a pack of feral dogs and my neighborhood has seen roving packs of feral dogs in recent years.

[jeepster09]

When a cop or armed security guard is armed visibly....it is NOT THE SAME as private citizen. Crooks aka bad guys usually know that backup is not far away in most cases. It use to also be if you shoot a cop, bad guy knew he would be hunted down. A private citizen is shot "maybe" you will be hunted down. Openly wearing a gun is like carrying a neon sign and everyone is watching you. Concealed you won't get a second glance in most cases. For me the same ones that open carry most likely are always doing SELFIES on social media...."hey look at me" wanting attention.

[Armybrat]

Like Mutt & Jeff here in Austin a few years ago? Claimed they were “educating” the public about open carrying in a local eatery.....

[I_Like_Turtles]

I would consider the man on the right to be "brandishing." These two are exactly what I was talking about with the "not classy at all" and comparisons to the LGBTQRS12345** movement. Two gay men getting married and being open about it is one thing, men dressing up as human peacocks and performing sex acts on each other on the street is quite another.

I feel single point slings, with weapon in front, to be very close to "brandishing." During the volunteer guard of the recruiting office, my rifle remained muzzle down, slung over my shoulder, the entire time.

But you know what I am talking about...this is a strawman you are using because it's over-the-top.

*Not paying Photobucket to link pics* but open carry in a holster, on one's side. That is the "open carry" I am talking about.

[Bawanna]

I usually carry a commander sized 1911 45 nearly everyday. When I work where guns for forbotten the PM45 rides on the ankle.
When I mow, when I work in the shop covered with sawdust, washing the car. The first indication to anyone that I have it is when I show them or they hear the safety being clicked off.

Had a fellow invited into my "room" a couple weeks ago. Not a real gun nut but into guns, kind of overwhelmed. As he's looking around he asked which was my favorite. I drew my CBob and he laughed, of course. Had no clue. Surprise, Surprise, Surprise, just the way I like it.

Lately sometimes when mowing if it's hot I won't bother with a cover, don't even consider it "open carry" mostly it's hot and I don't give a rats backside.

[FreeMe]

Yeah, IMO, what uniformed police do should be left out of the conversation. Besides the likelihood of backup, it is also expected that there is a higher level of training and awareness to confront. The "bully effect" also may not be a good argument. Bullying with fists isn't the same as criminal violence with a gun. There is a world of difference between the contact sport of physical bullying and attacking someone by means of a gun. When Samuel Colt made all men equal, it worked both ways.

[jeepster09]

Here ya go....

[I_Like_Turtles]

Yeah, IMO, what uniformed police do should be left out of the conversation. Besides the likelihood of backup, it is also expected that there is a higher level of training and awareness to confront. The "bully effect" also may not be a good argument. Bullying with fists isn't the same as criminal violence with a gun. There is a world of difference between the contact sport of physical bullying and attacking someone by means of a gun. When Samuel Colt made all men equal, it worked both ways.

But that's the argument that's being used "if they see the gun they'll shoot you first." Well, it doesn't happen with police, who generally open carry.

The argument you are now making is "open carry, in plains clothes gets you shot first while open carry in a uniform does not." Thus, you are not making a point of open carry, but of the presence of a uniform.

Backup is also a red herring, as the argument is, "if they see the gun they'll shoot that person first." That simply doesn't happen. I suspect most criminals are just as oblivious as the average person, they won't see the gun, and if they do, they will assume the guy is a cop, and go elsewhere, like in the Waffle House case linked above.

[I_Like_Turtles]

Jeepster,

I really like that photo but the thing is, every predator would attack the skunk at least once....since the skunk's weapon has to be deployed to be found out about, the predator will attack at least one skunk is his lifetime. He probably won't attack a porcupine since as a baby, he'd already had run-ins with thorns.

[dao]

Most bullies will not pick on a big guy simply because at heart the bully is a coward. He picks on those who he believes cannot or will not defend themselves. And as others said there's a big difference between a beat down and an armed robbery. Not all people who rob people are bullies. In fact I would presume that most aren't, though I cannot prove this.

A criminal, out to rob a person or an establishment, is there to do a job. The better at it he is the less likely he's going to be intimidated by someone with a gun in plain sight. And if he's not intimidated and is intent on doing his job, he's going to deal with that known impediment to his plans first. He may not shoot the person, he may simply disarm him. But one thing you can be sure of is that he will not dismiss the threat to himself or his plans by simply ignoring it while continuing to carry out his job.

Now in the event that the criminal sees the gun and he walks back out looking for an easier target great, that eventuality would make you right. But for all the other times, the known carrier is going to be dealt with, one way or another. And again, it will be first.

On the other hand, someone carrying concealed presents no greater threat to the criminal than anyone else present and therefore retains the element of surprise. And the ability to act with effective force. This is an advantage tactically. It could also save the carrier's life, because the choice for further action involving his concealed weapon is his and his alone to make. In his own time. If someone refuses to see this they are not thinking clearly.

Put another way many, many wars/battles have been won through the element of surprise throughout history. I cannot give you numbers but history bears this out. Here are a few quotes from "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu which illustrate this.


“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/3200649)

“All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.”
― Sun tzu, The Art of War (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/3200649)

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/3200649)

[I_Like_Turtles]

Well then we best do away with uniformed police and uniformed security, since we want our guys (and gals) to "retain the element of surprise." We also want to discourage weight lifting, or at least the wearing of tank tops and tight clothing, we want the fit not to look fit, thus, giving up that element of surprise. SMH>

How is a robber not a bully? Both use the threat of force to get their way. Thus, a robber and a bully have a lot in common. Even a bully robs....he/she robs their victims of their self respect, of their autonomy, of their freedom.

Glad we agree on at least one point, criminals are cowards. That's a good thing.....no battle, not one, ever, has been won without it.

[Bawanna]

A miscreant set on robbing a place will indeed disarm or shoot a cop just like anybody else. The beginner Quick Stop tribal thief will seek other pray if they see a uniform for sure and in most cases open carry too.

While police receive very little respect unlike the old days, they are still duly noted by most all but the stupidest morons.

If you want to open carry, go ahead, no need to justify your actions or convince others to do so.

You say you love discussion to teach or learn but you seem to want to discuss until your right and everyone else is wrong.

In this case there is not absolute right or wrong answer.

[jeepster09]

....

[I_Like_Turtles]

A miscreant set on robbing a place will indeed disarm or shoot a cop just like anybody else. The beginner Quick Stop tribal thief will seek other pray if they see a uniform for sure and in most cases open carry too.

While police receive very little respect unlike the old days, they are still duly noted by most all but the stupidest morons.

If you want to open carry, go ahead, no need to justify your actions or convince others to do so.

You say you love discussion to teach or learn but you seem to want to discuss until your right and everyone else is wrong.

In this case there is not absolute right or wrong answer.

I'm not the one that got this thread off track, that was done by others who wanted to move it away from what it was (complimenting two open carriers) and over into the realm of "open carry is bad." Of course I'm going to debate that position. I could be wrong but I seem to think most people continue a debate....if you feel I have been rude or disrespectful, please point out how. I'll apologize and try to make it right.

So far, I haven't read anything that suggests there is any validity to the belief that "open carriers are shot on sight." You seem to imply I don't want to learn, yet I've asked for evidence, numbers, and received none. All I have gotten is more opinions and a couple of memes. That's not how people are convinced.

Other than God's Word, there is no "absolute right" or "absolute wrong."

I open carry at times. I enjoy it, support it, and I will continue to compliment those that do. I will continue to await compelling evidence not to.

[Armybrat]

As I said, to each his own.

[jeepster09]

Something to think about.....

Pretend for a minute that you are the "bad guy" set on doing a crime. If you came into an establishment with robbery planned and you saw person open carrying,
remember you are the bad guy and you desperately want money and don't plan on leaving without it [ya need more crack]. Who would be FIRST TARGET?

[getsome]

Bingo!....The armed bad guy's going to think in his likely drug addled mind that this is now a two for one, he figures kill the guy with a nice shiny gun and take it home along with his wallet then stick up the cashier at the stop & rob....

[FreeMe]

But that's the argument that's being used "if they see the gun they'll shoot you first." Well, it doesn't happen with police, who generally open carry.

The argument you are now making is "open carry, in plains clothes gets you shot first while open carry in a uniform does not." Thus, you are not making a point of open carry, but of the presence of a uniform.

Backup is also a red herring, as the argument is, "if they see the gun they'll shoot that person first." That simply doesn't happen. I suspect most criminals are just as oblivious as the average person, they won't see the gun, and if they do, they will assume the guy is a cop, and go elsewhere, like in the Waffle House case linked above.

No, I'm not making that argument. I am simply saying that comparing what uniformed officers do to what others do is a bad argument. Two different worlds. I am in no way making any argument for or against open carry. As I stated already....it depends. Pointing out a bad argument does not equate to making an argument or claiming there is no good argument.

[FreeMe]

Here ya go....

And yet - dogs still come home with quills in their nose. And contrary to what has been claimed here, I have known of dogs that did it (and skunks) repeatedly.

[Bawanna]

Just like people some dogs are slow learners or no learners. I'm beginning to think there are more and more no learner people and the dogs are actually getting smarter.

[Funflyer]

It's threads like this that remind me why I conceal rather than open carry. I want NOBODY striking up a conversation with me about my sidearm while in public. The only place I feel it's appropriate is maybe in a sporting-goods store while looking at, or purchasing a firearm.

[jeepster09]

It's threads like this that remind me why I conceal rather than open carry. I want NOBODY striking up a conversation with me about my sidearm while in public. The only place I feel it's appropriate is maybe in a sporting-goods store while looking at, or purchasing a firearm.

Agreed!

[JohnR]

Speaking of Lowe's...
https://i.postimg.cc/GmyLfLyk/2020-07-01-11-08-27.jpg

[I_Like_Turtles]

Something to think about.....

Pretend for a minute that you are the "bad guy" set on doing a crime. If you came into an establishment with robbery planned and you saw person open carrying,
remember you are the bad guy and you desperately want money and don't plan on leaving without it [ya need more crack]. Who would be FIRST TARGET?

Why the need to pretend? Surely there is ample evidence of this happening in real life. No? Well then, I guess we'll have to pretend. LOL.

No open carry today but there will be open carry tomorrow. I'll be leveling my friend's yard.....the one that lives in the ghetto. I want every one of those dope heads and low lifes to see that I have my .45...my Kahr CW 45. :D

[I_Like_Turtles]

It's threads like this that remind me why I conceal rather than open carry. I want NOBODY striking up a conversation with me about my sidearm while in public. The only place I feel it's appropriate is maybe in a sporting-goods store while looking at, or purchasing a firearm.

Why is that? Are you embarrassed by your gun? LOL

My Kahr has never received compliments but my Smith and Wesson 1911 Sc has been complimented twice so far. All comments made to me when open carrying (including the one time I was forced to open carry due to permit expiration) have been supportive of the right and supportive of the right to self defense. No negative comments received so far.

[FreeMe]

Why is that? Are you embarrassed by your gun? LOL

My Kahr has never received compliments but my Smith and Wesson 1911 Sc has been complimented twice so far. All comments made to me when open carrying (including the one time I was forced to open carry due to permit expiration) have been supportive of the right and supportive of the right to self defense. No negative comments received so far.

Not directed at me, but I'll give you one answer.

It's not unheard of for someone to accuse a carrier of brandishing. The "proof" of the accusation is a description of the gun. A lot of people would like to avoid that hassle completely. Me? Depends on where I am.

[SlimLawson]

I believe the debate on concealed vs. open carry can go on forever. I am glad I live where there is the freedom to choose. Seems there are good points for both sides. My choice is my choice for my reasons and I plan to respect the choice of others.

[Armybrat]

Why is that? Are you embarrassed by your gun? LOL

My Kahr has never received compliments but my Smith and Wesson 1911 Sc has been complimented twice so far. All comments made to me when open carrying (including the one time I was forced to open carry due to permit expiration) have been supportive of the right and supportive of the right to self defense. No negative comments received so far.
Reminds me of the time I was stopped by a LEO about 20 years ago... doing 50 in a 40 zone.
After checking both my drivers & carry licenses, he politely asked me where was my firearm and what kind it was.
When I told him it was a KelTec P32 and it was in my console, he tried very hard not to smile and laugh.
He just gave me a warning.
The next week I bought a new PM9.

[Funflyer]

Why is that? Are you embarrassed by your gun? LOL



Embarrassed by my gun?, not at all. However there are only two people I'll ever talk to about it, my wife and my doctor.

[I_Like_Turtles]

Embarrassed by my gun?, not at all. However there are only two people I'll ever talk to about it, my wife and my doctor.


That's good. One should never carry a weapon they are embarrassed with, especially since it's "an extension of their man part" or whatever. LOL


Not sure I'd talk to a doctor about gun ownership....that's a thing these days.

My doc though and his nurses carry in the office. I donate my NRA magazines to them and they put them in their lobby. I have laid my weapon down on the table to lighten my body when I step up on the scales. They have taken no notice.

***

Open carry was good today. The extra leather gear seemed to tighten my belt a bit, keeping my very loose pants up better! The next door family had to see it along with the two guys the neighbor sent over to pick up the extra dirt I had left over. No one commented, not once. The guy I am working for said, "they are used to it from me" but he thinks the neighbor looks to him as a form of "protection." I've seen that before, even out of anti-gun liberals. If their neighbor is well-armed and they get along, she will look to him as "security" even though she would not return the favor.

i suspect this neighbor is a gun owner though.

Tomorrow it's back to weight lifting and concealed carry.

[JinRC]

Just adding my $.02.
Police, open carrying, has been used as an example for both being a target and potentially suppressing an aggressor.
My question.
If cops open carry everyday and have way more interactions with nefarious type of people, why do most cops carry concealed when off duty?

[JohnR]

Just adding my $.02.
Police, open carrying, has been used as an example for both being a target and potentially suppressing an aggressor.
My question.
If cops open carry everyday and have way more interactions with nefarious type of people, why do most cops carry concealed when off duty?
Same reason I don't show off what I do for a living after hours, perhaps. I wanna go home and get away from work for a while.

Taken to another level, if cops are targeted first, why don't they all dress in plainclothes and carry concealed on duty?

[jeepster09]

Cops are PAID to deter crime, it is their job. They have a small army of backup. The average citizen is NOT paid to deter crime and have no backup. Crooks KNOW this.
Go after cop you get the small army after you.....go after the private citizen their is no army to worry about. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.

[jeepster09]

Which bird has all the eyes on it in the park.....the FLAMINGO showing off or the ROBIN blending in? :boink:

[FreeMe]

That's good. One should never carry a weapon they are embarrassed with, especially since it's "an extension of their man part" or whatever. LOL


Not sure I'd talk to a doctor about gun ownership....that's a thing these days.

My doc though and his nurses carry in the office. I donate my NRA magazines to them and they put them in their lobby. I have laid my weapon down on the table to lighten my body when I step up on the scales. They have taken no notice.

.

I think you missed the joke....

[yqtszhj]

Go after cop you get the small army after you.....go after the private citizen their is no army to worry about. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.

This right here.

[yqtszhj]

Which bird has all the eyes on it in the park.....the FLAMINGO showing off or the ROBIN blending in? :boink:

And another good one...

[yqtszhj]

I think you missed the joke....

Like .....

[I_Like_Turtles]

I think you missed the joke....

"Missed" or "ignored?"

:cool:

The essential mission of the self defender is to deter attacks. We do this by living in a good neighborhood, where our money has bought us security, bars on our windows deter entry that route, we light up the outsides so there are no shadows or bushes to hide in and behind. A big and barking dog deters trespass. All these things deter break-ins as the burglar does not want to work hard or be seen. All those things are in plain sight also.

We deter attacks on ourselves by being athletic and big, by paying attention and walking with our heads up, eyes looking around, ears not blocked by headphones and ear buds. A confident look goes a long way. A weapon in plain sight is easier to see than one hidden away.

The "well the cop has an army backing him up" shifts the argument away from open carry and into a vague realm of "help will come." That assumes he has time to make a radio call. The debate here is "open carry deters vs. open carry invites." The debate is not "backup deters attacks." In fact, one of the often repeated arguments in this thread is "the bad guy will just shoot the guy with a gun" and yet, the same argument is not made for armed police. Then the argument shifts to "he has better training," or "he has backup." No, that cop would have to be "shot on sight" also, if it was true "open carry invites attacks."

I have to extrapolate and use the "cops open carry" argument because there isn't that much open carry by the self defender. There is more of it in certain states, states with very low crime to begin with. Is that a function of open carry or something else? However, it is up to the detractor to prove an argument incorrect, not up to the one making the claim to prove it is correct.

So far, no one has come forward with any study, any evidence, any numbers to support their claim "open carry invites attacks." That has been asked for more than once. There may be a reason for that.

There is, most certainly, a division among self defenders between the "concealed carry only" and "open carry" camps. Many of the former are quite staunch, even "elitist." The reverse is not true. Open carriers tend to support the concealed carrier's rights and practices.

***

Good news! Just looked in the mirror as I shaved my head.....yes, body is getting slimmer, muscles more toned, biceps are bigger. P90X works!

[jeepster09]

Cops ARE NOT RELYING on their "army" to back them up. They are just doing their job. THE BAD GUY KNOWS that a cop has the army.The bad guy is less likely to engage the cop because of this.

So far, no one has come forward with any study, any evidence, any numbers to support their claim "open carry invites attacks."

The evidence is COMMON SENSE. :yo:

[JohnR]

Seems to me, if a cop gets shot first, he wasn't doing his job of being aware of his surroundings. Not all the time, of course; a crafty criminal can ambush anyone, but like Jeepster said, has this ever been documented to any statistically significant amount?

[340pd]

In my opinion the debate is not how you feel it is more about how does it make others feel.
Open carry can scare people who are not familiar with guns.
Open care can have the unintended consequences of putting you in the position of having to defend yourself when some "Karen" calls the cops and says you brandished your firearm and describes it perfectly to the officer. Yes you may be innocent but why go through all that hassle.
No question you put yourself accidentally or on purpose of being a look at me I'm "tough guy".
You have eliminated any element of surprise.

At 75, 6'3, and 200# I am too old, have too many replacement parts, to think my muscles or the visible Ed Brown in a ostrich leg pancake holster on my hip is going to save me. (I would save that for a lunch with Bawanna).

Many attacks today come in the form of gangs of thugs and the best class I have ever taken on "gunfighting" was 8 hours of how to avoid a "gunfight" and what to do if you stumble into a situation where there is one going on.

I prefer to be the gray man and go about my business with my P365 or PM9 carried AWIB and a loose fitting shirt or, most times even better, pocket carried in a quality holster where I can already have it in my hand while walking to my car or find myself in uncomfortable surroundings.

Do what you feel is best for you but be prepared to generate a lot more negative thoughts than positive compliments when you strap on that hogleg and head out the front door.

[Ken L]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about regarding open versus concealed carry. I see no reason to talk to anyone about their carry choice or carry method. Although, it seems in this part of the country some of the open carriers are looking for attention, which in my mind is contrary to the reason for carrying in the first place. But, I don't engage them. I have been tempted to point out to some concealed carriers when they're printing, but have refrained because there wasn't an opportunity to discretely let them know--most times they are with someone else.

More and more people these days seem to equate open carriers with the mob-rule people that have taken over parts of Seattle, Atlanta and Minnesota, among other places. I have no desire to be lumped in with that rabble, but again that's my choice. My choices are not for everyone, but they work for me.

I have to walk back my comment. It just occurred to me that I did engage an open carrier probably a dozen years ago. It was in Las Vegas at a convention. An off-duty cop was patrolling the parking lot of the convention center, and of course he was carrying. I asked if I could ask him 2 questions--1-where a good place for lunch was that was within walking distance (he recommended the Peppermill by the way, and their Rueben is what sets the standard for me) and 2-asked him how he liked his P7, since that always has been a "grail gun" of mine. Started a nice conversation. But, technically he wasn't open carrying as he was working security.

[Bawanna]

The Peppermill is a class act. Been there a couple times.

[I_Like_Turtles]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about regarding open versus concealed carry. I see no reason to talk to anyone about their carry choice or carry method. Although, it seems in this part of the country some of the open carriers are looking for attention, which in my mind is contrary to the reason for carrying in the first place. But, I don't engage them. I have been tempted to point out to some concealed carriers when they're printing, but have refrained because there wasn't an opportunity to discretely let them know--most times they are with someone else.

More and more people these days seem to equate open carriers with the mob-rule people that have taken over parts of Seattle, Atlanta and Minnesota, among other places. I have no desire to be lumped in with that rabble, but again that's my choice. My choices are not for everyone, but they work for me.

I have to walk back my comment. It just occurred to me that I did engage an open carrier probably a dozen years ago. It was in Las Vegas at a convention. An off-duty cop was patrolling the parking lot of the convention center, and of course he was carrying. I asked if I could ask him 2 questions--1-where a good place for lunch was that was within walking distance (he recommended the Peppermill by the way, and their Rueben is what sets the standard for me) and 2-asked him how he liked his P7, since that always has been a "grail gun" of mine. Started a nice conversation. But, technically he wasn't open carrying as he was working security.

Ken, I think what your reply says to me is, you don't normally strike up conversations with strangers. Here, where I live, walking up to and beginning a conversation with a stranger, any stranger, is very normal. I do it daily, even with the virus, but at a farther distance. I have never felt any hesitation to approach an armed man and say "good looking holster" or "that's a nice 1911" which is what I did when I complimented the first two open carriers.

I think, based on yours and other replies, that the only contact anyone has had with an open carrier is via the news, which isn't fond of gun ownership in general, or has been unlucky enough to come into contact with what I'd describe as an "obnoxious open carrier" who really does want to get reaction out of people. That sort of person is much more common now, due to social media and Youtube rewards in the form of views.

I have seen people printing and I have pointed it out, after a more general conversational approach. None reacted badly. Maybe my area is just less "tense" than yours? Do you live in a large city? I find people that live in large cities or people from large cities tend to fear strangers.....even "hate" other people. People from large cities that I have been fortunate enough to converse with agree concerning how people there distrust strangers and simply, do not converse with them unless they have a specific reason.

Case in point: I went to DC with two friends about 2003. In front of the White House, a lone protester, wearing what I perceived as an "anti George Bush" mask, was holding a sign and walking back and forth outside the fence. Naturally (for me) I wanted to speak with him and see what his position was and why. My friends were against me doing this "DON'T TALK TO HIM!" was their advice. They stayed across the street. I walked up, said "hi" and had a nice chat with him. I didn't agree with him but I wished him well. We shook hands and he thanked me. I returned to my shy friends and we continued our tour of the city.

Now, Ken, would you have crossed that street and had a chat with that protester? I'm thinking not, based on your reply above.

No, he was "open carrying," since "open carry" is an act, the reason for it doesn't matter. The off-duty cop was open carrying and unless you saw his police ID, he could have been lying about being an officer.

***

The "Karen" thing seems to be a big city problem. It hasn't happened where I live, not to me, and not to anyone I know that open carries.

The only flak to open carry I have received, is from concealed carriers, and that only online. A few people I have chatted with in person, that live here, some of them have voiced concerns/fears similar to what I've read on here, but none had any reply when I asked "why aren't police shot when they open carry?" Silence is so far, all that's received. I assume the person is thinking about that fact----something they have never considered before.

[Ken L]

Turtle, you shouldn't read anything extra into people's replies. You don't know me, don't know what I do for a living and how I interact with people. I made a statement about open carriers and concealed carriers that were printing. Leave it go at that.

That's a major problem with society today. Due to social media way too many people infer their own meanings on statements people make.

[I_Like_Turtles]

Why the upset? Sorry if I hurt your feelings but your reply did suggest you didn't normally approach people and converse with them unless you had a specific question to ask, like "what's a good place to eat" which is what your reply actually stated as the main reason you approached the open carrier. *Now it could be that I have misread your reply....by "do not engage them" does that mean you don't talk with open carriers at all or just not about open carry?

What does a job have to do with one's habit of conversing with strangers?

I am still curious though, would you have approached the lone anti Bush protester I described, even if you weren't hungry?

***

P7...is that the H&K "squeeze cocker?" If it is, I got to shoot one at the gun range a few months ago. Again, saw it, just walked up the the guy, introduced myself, complimented him on it, and he offered for me to shoot it.

[dao]

While I tend to look on such research with a critical eye toward bias, this one is different in that it is solely open carry that was researched, rather than a combination of open and concealed, which can make it harder to come to a solid conclusion on either method, and easier to skew results in the favor of the bias of the entity ordering or conducting the research.

Turtles you are presenting something of a strawman argument. The point several of us are trying to convey is that if you the armed citizen are known to be carrying by someone who is intent on commiting a crime, then your threat would be the first to be addressed by the perpretator while carrying out that crime. Period.
Instead you are saying that big people don't get picked on and open carrying individuals are immune to being in the presence of a crime because the sight of their weapon will prevent that crime from happening. You may be right, but if so it is only in the case where the perpetrator was not intent on continuing to commit the crime. And using police to make your point is also beside the point although there is no shortage of police being targeted in the last few years in spite of the fact that they are openly carrying. But we did not use police because that is outside the realm of the armed citizen.

In reality both arguments may be true, and almost certainly are at least some of the time. But I and others would rather not make a target of ourselves in the off chance it is going to prove your point.

You asked for data, here you go.

From this article (https://tsaco.bmj.com/content/3/1/e000196): (look at the long list of sources)

...
Conclusions

Open carry ban, (boldening mine), decreases fatalities and healthcare utilization even in a state with baseline strict gun laws. The most significant impact is from decreasing firearm-related fatal and NF assaults.


References



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Footnotes



Presented at 76th Annual Meeting of the American Association for the Surgery of Trauma (AAST), September 14, 2017, Baltimore, Maryland.
Contributors RAC: literature search, study design, data collection, analysis, interpretation, writing. AMJR: literature search, study design, interpretation, critical review. MWM: study design, data analysis, interpretation, critical review.
Funding The authors have not declared a specific grant for this research from any funding agency in the public, commercial or not-for-profit sectors.
Competing interests None declared.
Patient consent Not required.
Provenance and peer review Not commissioned; externally peer reviewed.
Data sharing statement There are no unpublished data. All data are from publicly available data sets.

[jeepster09]

Makes you go hmmm....

[Bawanna]

Comparing a open carrier civilian to a uniformed police officer is no viable comparison in my book.

The uniform itself at least in the old days meant something to "good" people, regardless of the gun.

[JohnR]

Seems to me we've beat this dead horse enough. Every gun forum beats this dead horse a few times a year.

[Ken L]

Not upset, no feelings are hurt. Just a mini rant on the state of the world today thanks to almighty social media and people reading more into things than are there or intended. Or maybe it's an indictment of me translating my thoughts to the "page" poorly, which opens the door for the misinterpretation. In either case, it's over and done with.

[jeepster09]

.....

[Bawanna]

Seems to me we've beat this dead horse enough. Every gun forum beats this dead horse a few times a year.

Actually I think the horse was sick from birth which is why I've always preferred a good mule myself.

No worries Ken, your post was crystal clear and I didn't see room for interpretation myself.

[Armybrat]

The Peppermill is a class act. Been there a couple times.

All my Vegas friends recommend that place, but in 40+ trips to Vegas over the decades we have never tried it.

[I_Like_Turtles]

No one has to read anything they don't like to read.

Very thankful someone finally got me more than a silly meme or off topic opinion. I've been out most of the day but I'll get started going through this study and see what I can make of it, especially any methods that may be in question.

[FreeMe]

It seems to me that every uniformed cop in America that has been shot was carrying openly. That doesn't mean carrying openly leads to getting shot - but it does put the lie to the visible gun as a deterrent. And yes - our nation has gone through periods of police being targeted, as we are seeing now or worse.

[JinRC]

"You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out"
Interesting reply.
Well, I'm not a rocket scientist but I'm positive I know why the friends I have that are police, sheriff, corrections officers carry concealed while off duty. Has nothing to do with having an army that may or may not be there in that instant they need them.
But I digress, who cares.

[King Rat]

I have always been very big on concealed carry. Abhorred open carry. But given what has been going on by so many terrorist attacks in the country I can see that my view of concealment might be changing. They have become even more bold it seems every day. In some areas the Police have been defunded, many quitting and many less enthusiastic to respond has opened up a vacuum for criminals and thugs. I believe it is going to get much worse in the coming months. Things are changing quick. Time to start thinking about open carry.

[Bawanna]

Things will start to return to normal as soon as Trump is reelected and the Dems realize all their misguided efforts were in vain.

No open carry for me, let them think I'm a sheep and then I'll Gomer Pyle em. Surprise, surprise, surprise!!!

[jeepster09]

Okay okay....I geared up for open carry! BRING IT ON ....I am finding people quickly move out of my way now! :w00t:

[dao]

Thanks for that mental image that has burned itself into my retinas. If that doesn't work, the only thing left would be to set yourself on fire. As Richard Pryor told us.

[Armybrat]

...

[King Rat]

Of course since they want to defund the police, than I wonder how many bad guys are left after they shoot each other? Hopefully given the new results I would like to see more de-funding in Baltimore, LA, DC, Houston etc.

Of course it will not be long before they start protesting, looting and burning again because they were victims of de-funded Police. Hey, any excuse for a good ole looting spree right?

[dustnchips]

I think I'll get a holster for my scorpian and open carry. That should keep the bad guys at bay.

[Bawanna]

I guess one good thing about all this open carry BS is there's lots less chatter about the 380 craze.

[King Rat]

I guess one good thing about all this open carry BS is there's lots less chatter about the 380 craze.

The same with all Pistols and Revolvers. Now shotguns AR's and PC's seem to get the attention. The 380 will always be carried even if for a backup to no matter what is carried. Never leave home without one.

[Armybrat]

Don’t care what y’all think about the .380.... my CT380 is a fine shooter and a really neat little gun!

[getsome]

I agree Army, holes no matter what the size run contrary to future good health....

[yqtszhj]

97 degrees today with 80% humidity. The LCP .380 pocket carried in the jeans just fine to the grocery store. ;)

[dustnchips]

Don't really have a scorpion but get along fine pocket carrying my P380 around my home town. PM9 for other areas. I am looking at a CZ-75 just for shooting, but if I ever want to hang something on my hip it would be that or my Browning copy of the sig P220 in 45 cal. I hope I never feel the need to open carry to intimidate bad guys.

[FreeMe]

Things will start to return to normal as soon as Trump is reelected and the Dems realize all their misguided efforts were in vain.



I hope you're right, but I'm thinking it would be wise to expect things to really blow up for a while when Trump wins re-election. You think hair was on fire the last time....just wait.


BTW - Jeepster - thanks, fella. I had hoped I'd never see that photo again. Gotta start decon process all over now.

[yqtszhj]

but I'm thinking it would be wise to expect things to really blow up for a while when Trump wins re-election. You think hair was on fire the last time....just wait.


Thats what I’m thinking too.

[King Rat]

Don’t care what y’all think about the .380.... my CT380 is a fine shooter and a really neat little gun!

I hear ya Brother.

https://i.imgur.com/nZxHNyP.jpg?1

[King Rat]

Symbolism: right after the election and Trump has 4 more years.


All the families enemies-BLM, Omar,Antifa- America's enemies "Do you denounce Satan? I Do!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfbYp9oaIT8

[getsome]

Well I can tell you this, ammo prices are out of control, I went to my LGS today for a new box of ammo (I recycle my carry ammo every 3-4 months) just to be sure it will go bang if need be but the last box of Sig V Crown 124 grain 9 mm I bought was $29.00 for 20 rounds which to me was pretty high but today's price was $42.00 for 20 rounds which is crazy....I paid it but but I'm not a rich man and maybe I'll rethink range time in the future and hang on to what ammo I have no matter how old it is......Two bucks a pop is just stupid expensive....

[DavidR]

Yep - ammo prices out of control. TargetSportsUSA has their store branded 9mm range ammo at $18 for a 50 round box.

Now that I’m retired I’ll be shooting more. Perfect timing. I bought 5 boxes at that outrageous price as there isn’t much available anywhere and I don’t expect that to change for a long time. Told wifey that with the economy in bad shape we’ll be eating dog food next week.