Napalm for the caliber wars

[skiflydive]

It's been interesting over the time I've been here to watch the caliber wars. It's almost like watching political debates but much more spirited!

I ran across this interview with 2 guys from Federal who design and test ammunition across all their product lines. I thought it was VERY interesting. You might too although I know some will remain unimpressed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y

[I_Like_Turtles]

I enjoy caliber wars also, or any spirited debate.

[berettabone]

I'm going to try(ahem) to be Switzerland here.....................I agree with most of what they say under their circumstances. I agree with the science that they use to come to their conclusions under their circumstances. I understand the LE input in to the equation. I understand the physical bullet damage and entrance trail body science. What would make the most sense then, is that basically/realistically, everyone should be carrying a high capacity.22 cal., because they are the easiest to shoot, wound channels have no bearing in most cases, and bullet speed doesn't have much bearing either, unless there is longer shooting distance involved. Then it would also make sense that LE should be carrying them, private citizens should be carrying them, and to all of you hikers out there(I'm one) when you're out in the woods, forget about that .44 mag you like to carry in case of bear. No need.....a .22 cal. high cap set up is good as gold. Goes zinging by an organ, and does more damage than a slower, larger bullet. If all of this is true, then why does anyone carry anything other than a small caliber for self defense????? Apparently, there is no need for anything larger. I don't know about you, but I'm going to continue to carry my .357 and .40 cal. for defensive purposes, and leave the science to the experts. For some unknown reason, I just can't seem to get myself to carry a .22 pistol while hiking in the woods. Or on the street for that matter.:)

[Bawanna]

One reason the 5.7 is so popular, tiny bullet going super fast, a pistol trying to act like a rifle. Plus large capacity since the cases are so small.

My old department considered them when we transitioned. Ammo was expensive and difficult to get, only 1 or several types was truly effective and was earmarked for LE only which of course never happens. The gun I felt was delicate as far as cleaning and maintenance and the real clincher for me is it was ugly. I just ain't gonna carry an ugly gun.

Still the caliber shows promise. Me, I'll be stubborn and stick to my 45's long as I can hold em and after that I probably wont care all that much, actually I'm already at the lack of care stage so it matters little.

[yqtszhj]

Me, I'll be stubborn and stick to my 45's long as I can hold em and after that I probably wont care all that much, actually I'm already at the lack of care stage so it matters little.


Just let let us know when it starts getting rough for you and we’ll fix you up with a .380 and relieve you of some of your .45’s. :rolleyes:

[dao]

Very interesting. But one thing they did not talk about, and which I don't hear very often with the exception of Paul Harrell videos is the effect on bone. If I tap my ribs with a pencil it feels a lot different than if I tap them lightly with a hammer. If I in turn shoot and hit a rib with a .22 and then with a .45, it would be good to know what the potential for ancillary damage is to surrounding tissue by each, as the rib is shattered and pieces move in the surrounding area. Perhaps because there are too many variables involved and therefore nobody is willing to try and predict what the dual outcomes would be. But experience tells me that blows to my body hurt and affect my immediate reaction far more when the impact is to bone than to flesh only. Because of that I do tend to do as the one gentleman more or less said which is to use as much bullet as I can accurately shoot, repeatedly. That way, if I miss by a little and/or happen to hit bone the likelihood of incapacitating someone at least temporarily should be greater.
People may not even notice a flesh would right away, but an arm or leg in which a major bone has been broken is not likely to be useful to them in the immediate sense.

[Bawanna]

Just let let us know when it starts getting rough for you and we’ll fix you up with a .380 and relieve you of some of your .45’s. :rolleyes:

Just picked up another one today to add to the pile for when I transition to 380 which ain't gonna happen.................

[dustnchips]

I don't understand why they do not use a combination of animal bone and ballistic gel to do testing. Shoot someone in the chest you have a 50-50 chance of hitting bone. In the head about a 90+% chance. Legs and arms probably 25-30% chance. Bone matters.

[Armybrat]

Just picked up another one today to add to the pile for when I transition to 380 which ain't gonna happen.................

For some strange reason the picture of your new pistol isn’t loading for me.

[Bawanna]

For some strange reason the picture of your new pistol isn’t loading for me.

https://i.postimg.cc/HLnkQK45/DSCN8101.jpg (https://postimg.cc/06gvvV42)

My bad. I posted it in another thread.

[Armybrat]

Well well, that certainly looks like a reliable eye Witness.
Very nice get.
3 dot sights?

[Bawanna]

Well well, that certainly looks like a reliable eye Witness.
Very nice get.
3 dot sights?

No they are all black. I might put some white on the front, I seem to get along ok with all black or a black rear and some color up front. Not sure what the dove tail cut is but I'm sure I could swap out if needed.

The front is dovetailed and pinned. Don't recollect seeing that before. Not sure if it's a tiny allen screw or just a pin.

[TXscooterguy]

I was talking with a guy with Homeland Security and he showed us a target they use to practice head shots. Anybody heard of the "T-Box"? Not the forehead but the NOSE. A round in the medulla oblongata (top of the brain stem) instantly stops the bad guy. Shot placement is far more important than caliber choice.

[I_Like_Turtles]

I have read that....bridge of nose above upper lip.

[dustnchips]

The argument that they have improved the 9mm to the level of the old 45 makes no sense to me. It assumes they have not improved the new 45 s. 45 for home and 380 or 9 for carry for me so I am not sure if I have a dog in this fight or not.

[Planedude]

I have carry pieces in: 22mag, 32acp, .380, 9mm, 38spl, 45acp, 44spl and 41mag...

No matter the caliber, I still consider shot placement to be MY job and If I do my job, any gun I'm carrying is plenty enough.

Peace.

[I_Like_Turtles]

I have carry pieces in: 22mag, 32acp, .380, 9mm, 38spl, 45acp, 44spl and 41mag...

No matter the caliber, I still consider shot placement to be MY job and If I do my job, any gun I'm carrying is plenty enough.

Peace.

People do get upset on caliber wars! Even this site is not immune, especially concerning the .380 ACP. :p I personally believe there are small-enough 9mm Parabellums to negate any advantages of the .380, except for very small hands. One .380 I am interested in is the Browning 1911 .380 Black Label....not so much for me but for my coming Asian bride. She has very small hands but she isn't here yet and it's up to her to decide what she wants to carry.

I have carried a .22 Mag before, carried it for years and it is, so far, the longest continuously-carried self defense firearm in my inventory. I carried it for some 16 years! I retired it in 2012 when I decided I'd carry nothing less than .38 SPL or 9mm Parabellum. I still have it with no plans to sell.

At the moment my "defensive battery" consists of .38 SPL and .45 ACP but I may begin carrying two 9mm Parabellums at some point. I joined this site to learn more about the K9 since I wanted something heavier to tamp down my flinch.

[King Rat]

Excellent video and so true. I doubt the Big Bore folks will accept any talk from the experts on any other caliber . Yes, by all means shot placement is Vital. Two of the most Popular calibers now are the 380 and 9mm. You might be lucky to find a box of 9mm if you are lucky but 380 is almost impossible. A shooter found a box on another forum but the cost was $80.00 for a box of 50.
Now the news of the New Federal Hydra-shok-deep is out, the 380 will even be more popular. The new HYDRA Shok-Deep meets all standard by the FBI. And from a LCP. The Big Bore guys are not going to like this news.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/07/30/federal-380-acp-99gr-hydra-shok-deep-in-vyse-ballistics-gel/

https://i.imgur.com/a8MRwJA.jpg?1

[Armybrat]

Wonder if it would feed reliably in my Colt.

[dao]

Assuming you could actually find some right now it would definitely be worth a try.

[Bawanna]

I love the news of this phenomenal 380 ammo. More real ammo on the shelf for me.

[DavidR]

Punch is available in 9mm direct from Federal. 80 cents per round.

[dao]

Not today. But thanks for the info anyway, I had no idea a person could buy any ammo directly from Federal.

[DavidR]

Not today. But thanks for the info anyway, I had no idea a person could buy any ammo directly from Federal.

I’ve placed three orders with them recently. Slow to ship. One order has arrived, two haven’t shipped yet.

[Armybrat]

What David said. My last of two orders was two weeks getting here.
Prices have jacked up to where I won’t order any more.

[DavidR]

The Punch 9mm was there when I checked. Must’ve sold out quick.

I’m hedging my bets. Range 9mm at $18 a box may sound high but it’s cheaper than a lot of other places and will be a downright steal if Biden steals the election.

[Bawanna]

Biden and a black indian marxist female, not a chance. God help us!

[AJBert]

This is what I got from the video:

1. Speed kills...providing you are shooting a rifle.

2. Pistol calibers don't mean a thing...unless you hit bone.

2. Not from the video, but if you are shooting a small caliber hand gun, shoot a .22. It will ricochet off the bone, much like a .556/.223 and tumble through the soft tissue/organs. This is what Ronald Reagan was shot with. Hit a rib, tumble through and lodged somewhere around his thigh. Caused massive damage and damn near killed him.

[Armybrat]

Biden and a black indian marxist female, not a chance. God help us!

I think The Donald is going to lose.

[340pd]

What David said. My last of two orders was two weeks getting here.
Prices have jacked up to where I won’t order any more.

Federal keeps their prices somewhat high to protect their retailers. They really have to follow that plan to avoid chaos.

[340pd]

Underwood ammo is another one of the Phillips head style, lower weight, higher velocity ammo makers. Great penetration and perfect for shooting through windshields without deflection. Maybe worth a looksee on YouTube. I have several boxes from Brownells and find it to be very accurate out of all my 9mm's. I have not yet tried it in my .380's

[340pd]

I think The Donald is going to lose.

If you value your guns, pray he doesn't lose.
Take ten people to the polls with you.

[berettabone]

I noticed that the test distance was 10 ft. Pretty much anything will do damage at ten ft. Just thought I'd throw that in.........................

[I_Like_Turtles]

Just don't defend yourself from a mostly peaceful attacker. That's a big no-no now.

[King Rat]

I think The Donald is going to lose.

That is the same thing they said last Election. All the polls had Hilliary the Beast far ahead. Don whipped her sorry a** so bad she could barely walk without being carried to her Limo. Let's Pray that Trump can send the party of Terrorist to their knees where they belong. The Idea of the US being lead by BLM and Snowflakes is the Country's very worst nightmare and the end of the world as we know it.

https://i.imgur.com/YtuIwZd.jpg?1https://i.imgur.com/xfGrVcO.jpg?1

[dustnchips]

You seem to forget that Clinton won the popular vote.

[340pd]

That is not going to happen this election. Trump will win big on election night. As each state totals come in the calculation will be made as to how many votes would be needed to change the results and believe me that number will "magically appear in the form of mail-in ballots.
I live through that in MN with the senate race between Coleman and Al Franken. It took a few weeks but eventually enough were "found" to declare Franken the winner.
Remember this post as it will come to be proven correct.

[DavidR]

That is not going to happen this election. Trump will win big on election night. As each state totals come in the calculation will be made as to how many votes would be needed to change the results and believe me that number will "magically appear in the form of mail-in ballots.
I live through that in MN with the senate race between Coleman and Al Franken. It took a few weeks but eventually enough were "found" to declare Franken the winner.
Remember this post as it will come to be proven correct.

That won’t happen in Florida. Republican governor and cabinet will not allow endless counting. Eventually the Supreme Court will decide. Worried about Roberts.

[King Rat]

You seem to forget that Clinton won the popular vote.

How's that working out for her?

[yqtszhj]

That is not going to happen this election. Trump will win big on election night. As each state totals come in the calculation will be made as to how many votes would be needed to change the results and believe me that number will "magically appear in the form of mail-in ballots.


Im with you on that win, then the riots will begin in protest. I don’t foresee any events in my neighborhood but will remain ready just in case. Better stock up on groceries for a while.

Now if Joe Hiden wins, were in deeper doo-doo.

[Armybrat]

That is not going to happen this election. Trump will win big on election night. As each state totals come in the calculation will be made as to how many votes would be needed to change the results and believe me that number will "magically appear in the form of mail-in ballots.
I live through that in MN with the senate race between Coleman and Al Franken. It took a few weeks but eventually enough were "found" to declare Franken the winner.
Remember this post as it will come to be proven correct.
That’s how LBJ first got “elected” to the US Senate. The infamous “Box13”.

Makes me laugh and shake my head when today’s democrats claim there is no evidence of voter fraud when their dirtbags win.