Was thinking about just dumping Kahr altogether.

[RogerP9fan]

But then my logical side kicked in and decided to give them a chance to fix my trigger failing to reset while firing. I'll admit I was discouraged and wondered if I could ever trust a gun that failed like that. Took a couple weeks to decide to dump it or fix it and realized, I really like this little pistol. And I like the people in this forum who stand behind it, even when there are problems. What really helped also was today when I spoke with Kahr and explained it's a new gun and this happened multiple times during the break in period, they sent me a label so I wouldn't have to cover shipping. Hopefully, that is step #1 on the road to being a happy Kahr pistol owner.

[Bawanna]

All we can do is keep our fingers crossed for you and hope you are able to regain your confidence in Kahr products.
Looks like the Para made it from Buds so you got something nice to hold and play with while your Kahr is getting a makeover. You've actually gotten quite a few new toys in recent times and I find myself quite jealous.
Let us know how it all shakes out. Hope Kahr makes an extra effort to make it right.
Don't feel like if your Kahrless you gotta run off either. While Kahr is the main draw here it's certainly not the only draw and I like to think we can chat about most anything.
Lots of good friends here, lots of people with lots of experience about lots of different things.

[wyntrout]

Dang, Roger, you just gotta hang in there. I hope to get my "Franken" Boomer back tomorrow... or the next day... depends on my local FFL dealer. I know that Kahr sent it overnight today, er Monday.
I just hope it's fun to shoot again and I can grow to trust it for CCW. Four returns and multiple problems, but Kahr has really been trying to get me a working gun. It was pretty awesome until I sent it back to get a better looking slide.
Wynn:)

[ripley16]

Many of us would be very interested in knowing the cause of this problem and what Kahr does to correct it. Please post a follow-up.

[bayoutrigger]

Speaking of the trigger is there anyone who specializes in taking some of the slack out of the Kahr trigger? The trigger reset is practically the entire return of the trigger to the pre-fire position.

[hedgehog]

Speaking of the trigger is there anyone who specializes in taking some of the slack out of the Kahr trigger? The trigger reset is practically the entire return of the trigger to the pre-fire position.

i don't think you can change that. unless you somehow made the trigger reset to a "staged" point.

[RogerP9fan]

Speaking of the trigger is there anyone who specializes in taking some of the slack out of the Kahr trigger? The trigger reset is practically the entire return of the trigger to the pre-fire position.+1! I couldn't have said it better. I've never fired a gun with such reset before. Just like you said, it's just a hair away from the original trigger position. Does this have something to do with my trigger reset failure? I wasn't intentionally holding the trigger back all the way after firing and then slowly releasing it to find the reset. The only way I know about the long reset is from dry firing. Alot of Glock guys shoot this way, but I don't even do it with them.
You guys are right, I'm not a quitter, I did get discouraged, but I'm back. I do enjoy everyone here, it's like a cool little community...Bawanna, the Para P14*45 is so big and stiff, especially the recoil spring, I couldn't get it back in with the recoil plug so I could then rotate the barrel bushing over it. (this was after the initial break down, cleaning and lubing berore firing) So, tomorrow, I'll have a friend actually hold the gun, so can better put it back together by using a flat head screwdriver to help get that recoil plug flush enough to be able to turn that barrel bushing over it. Man oh man...My first M1911 yipeeee! BTW, The Glock 36 is an absolute DREAM COME TRUE. Love it so much, I had to get a new G21SF and G17 and now I'm gonna go apply for a second job!

[RogerP9fan]

Many of us would be very interested in knowing the cause of this problem and what Kahr does to correct it. Please post a follow-up.Indeed, I most certainly will. Let's say hypothetically, if someone does hold the trigger back after firing, it still should reset anyway once you release your finger tension and NOT leave you with a dead trigger! I had to eject the live round, the next one chambered and then everything was OK.
BTW, this failure ONLY occurs when I prepare it in the +1 CCW mode. (full mag plus one in the pipe) I never had any problems when I'd just put in a full mag, hit the slide stop and fire all 7 rounds. Mystery...even jocko's at a loss here...I will keep you updated.

[Bawanna]

Didn't your Para come with a bushing wrench. They are tight at first but after a few rounds you probably won't need the wrench anymore. The mention of a second man and a flat screwdriver turns my legs to jello. OH they already are jello. Makes me scared. Happy first 1911 to you, don't hurt it.
I have 3 Para's so far and now a burning desire for a Cbob. I'm a sick man. I need mental help.
I think I got my Match Target Colt AR sold so the next Cbob that's a decent deal will be mine. Taking my wife the bean counter out of the equation.

[RogerP9fan]

LOL Yep, the tension of this brand new spring is so tight that I can't just use my thumb to push the sharp edged spring plug all the way in enough to then use the wrench to turn the barrel bushing. For this initial reassembly, I actually will need someone to hold this hand held cannon while I maneuver everything back together. Then I'll go blast 200 rounds and hopefully loosen it up!
Oh, I wanted to get all my pistols this year.
1) Political climate
2) Prices will only go up
3) Wanted Gen 3 Glocks, who knows if you can get em in the future?
4) New found hobby in target shooting

Submitted application for second job. Tough economy!

[Bawanna]

That's what the bushing wrench is for. It fits on the front bushing and you push in on the recoil cap with the wrench and turn the bushing at the same time. It shouldn't be difficult with the wrench at all. Drop the screwdriver and give the wrench another try. If your stuck take it as is to the range and see if anyone there knows how to work the wrench. It's not tough once you figure it out.

[jeep45238]

i don't think you can change that. unless you somehow made the trigger reset to a "staged" point.


It can't be changed without a complete redesign of the fire control.

That is honestly the reason why I no longer carry a Kahr.

If they do change the reset point to where it should be on a pistol (under .180" from full rearward motion in my honest opinion) - well, I will happily go out and buy a K9 or T9 and carry that baby non stop.

[RogerP9fan]

Wow...I believe, sadly, that are 100% right. Have you ever had an incident where your trigger did not reset at all while firing?

[RogerP9fan]

That's what the bushing wrench is for. It fits on the front bushing and you push in on the recoil cap with the wrench and turn the bushing at the same time. It shouldn't be difficult with the wrench at all. Drop the screwdriver and give the wrench another try. If your stuck take it as is to the range and see if anyone there knows how to work the wrench. It's not tough once you figure it out.Yes, on paper and theoretically, sure, piece of cake, no problem... In reality, when you have a brand new P14*45 very big and unbelievably tight spring and sharp spring plug...not so easy.

[RogerP9fan]

It can't be changed without a complete redesign of the fire control.

That is honestly the reason why I no longer carry a Kahr.

If they do change the reset point to where it should be on a pistol (under .180" from full rearward motion in my honest opinion) - well, I will happily go out and buy a K9 or T9 and carry that baby non stop.Despite all my new toys, it gets back to the truism, "The most important gun you own, is the one you have on you."
That's why I'm feeling depressed again. Kahr would have been the perfect carry gun.

[jeep45238]

Yes, on paper and theoretically, sure, piece of cake, no problem... In reality, when you have a brand new P14*45 very big and unbelievably tight spring and sharp spring plug...not so easy.

It's actually pretty easy. I speak from experience, here's my old para:
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s127/jeep45238/Minor%20Gunsmithing/My%20Para%20Ord/3%2025%202010%20wear/DSCN0827.jpg

Yes, they are tight from the get go. Assemble the upper onto the frame, engage the thumb safety. Lubricate the outside, inside, and the lug of the barrel bushing with gun oil. Drop in recoil spring, with the CLOSED end over the base of the recoil spring guide. The open end of the spring MUST face outwards. Insert the barrel bushing, and rotate it to where it almost touches the recoil spring. Depress the recoil spring plug, and with your other hand have the bushing wrench handy. You will then take your off hand and slip the wrench between the plug and your strong hand (that's compressing the spring), and your strong hand will now put downward pressure on the bushing wrench. You will then rotate the bushing wrench so that it covers the dust cover, and you're done.

I think I may have used my wrench once. I just used my thumbs for assembly, and a corner of a mag to push the plug below the surface of the barrel bushing (and slightly twist the bushing with my thumb, still capturing the plug) for disasembly.

I would highly recommend wearing safety glasses until you get used to the procedure. I would also reccomend ditching the factory recoil spring and going back to a 16.5 pound recoil spring and a 23 pound mainspring like John MOSES Browning intended to be in there. It functions 100% this way, and when combined with a firing pin stop that has a sharp shoulder (unlike the generous radius that your gun has, to make it 'easier' to rack), it REALLY reduces felt recoil.

<-over 15K down the tube of his last 1911 ;)



Wow...I believe, sadly, that are 100% right. Have you ever had an incident where your trigger did not reset at all while firing?

As a mechanical issue, no. A shooter, yes. I started into pistols as a 1911 shooter. That was quickly resolved.


Despite all my new toys, it gets back to the truism, "The most important gun you own, is the one you have on you."
That's why I'm feeling depressed again. Kahr would have been the perfect carry gun.


I've got a thing for effecient tools, even if I don't like that option. I ALWAYS went back to my 1911 for my carry pistol, until I shot a M&P. The Kahr was as accurate as the 1911, and just as easily concealed, however I shot WAY too slow with it for my personal standards. If I can't achieve .15 second splits with some time on the range and the pistol, it's not going on my hip.

[RogerP9fan]

I appreciate those tips. Very helpful indeed! I got it back together and can't wait to go blast off 200 rounds! I'm surprised how stiff and hard the trigger pull is though for a single action. Would you recommend working with a gunsmith? This stock pull feels like mabe 5.5 lbs. I'd like it be like 4.5 lbs. I guess.. Replace the hammer? Hammer mainspring? Polish the sear and all trigger internals? Change disconnector? I don't know, I'm still learning. Thanks.

[jeep45238]

I appreciate those tips. Very helpful indeed! I got it back together and can't wait to go blast off 200 rounds! I'm surprised how stiff and hard the trigger pull is though for a single action. Would you recommend working with a gunsmith? This stock pull feels like mabe 5.5 lbs. I'd like it be like 4.5 lbs. I guess.. Replace the hammer? Hammer mainspring? Polish the sear and all trigger internals? Change disconnector? I don't know, I'm still learning. Thanks.


Clean out all of the factory packing grease on the trigger bow/sear/disconnector/hammer, and put a quality gun oil (Slip200 EWL is my choice), and it'll easily drop the weight a solid point.

5.5 is not that heavy of a trigger.

Don't mess with the hammer or any internal parts, it's not needed and will not get you any real benefit.

Replace the firing pin stop with an oversized unit from EGW, and replace the mainspring with a 23# spring, and the recoil with a 16.5 # spring and call it a day.

I shot 9" paper plates all day long standing, unsupported, with my Para. They're plenty accurate enough. ;)

If you REALLY fell that you want a lower trigger pull, AFTER becoming familiar with the internal operations, then polish the sides of the sear that engage the frame, the whole disconnector, and the trigger bow along with the firing pin block and linkage. That got me down to about 3.25 pounds on the trigger. You can increase the poundage or decrease it by modifying the tension on the sear spring.

[dusty10]

The discussion of the long trigger reset and resulting speed of follow up shots earlier in this thread was interesting to me. Interesting since I think the world record in speed shooting is held be a revolver shooter, Jerry Miculek. Wasn't he able to send 12 rounds down range in 3.5 seconds which included a reload? I don't know about you guys but, I have been carrying a S&W J frame for quite a while. The Kahr DAO trigger is what attracted me to the brand in the first place. It is very revolver like. While I have only owned my K9 for a few days and only shot 100 flawless rounds thru it, I am planning on making this my everyday carry. 200-300 more rounds down range and I'll be shopping for a holster. :D

[jeep45238]

You're comparing a professional, exhibition shooter that was touched by god to lil ol me? I'm touched ;)

Keep in mind that JM shoots revolvers that literally push his finger to the reset (why I can shoot my AK as fast as my 2 stage, short travel AR). The Kahr? Meh, it has just enough tension to keep the trigger against your finger. If it had the tension to make reset quick, it would also have a 12+ pound pull. At that point in the game, may as well get a Nagant revolver.

[dusty10]

Might be a dumb question but can't a person train himself to let off the trigger after the gun goes bang so the trigger can reset? I was doing some pretty fast shooting at the range yesterday first time out with my K9. I did not notice a terribly long reset time as I have been shooting alot of revolvers lately. Basically by the time I was back on target, which was pretty quick because the k9 does not have much, if any, muzzle flip, I was ready to fire again. :confused: I did feel some tension against my trigger finger as the trigger pushed it forward. I'm just not seeing the problem, but next time out, I'll be looking for the condition you mention. :cool:

[copterdrvr]

Have to admit I don't either...

[jeep45238]

Yes, you can train yourself to completely remove your finger from the trigger after each shot, but that's a damn good way to take your shots off target and slow down your shooting. I'll just do my best to shoot to reset (which under stress is damn near impossible, but muscle memory gets you close enough).

How many of ya'll got shot timers to verify what you think is going on? Keep in mind that quick is very, very subjective. I consider myself a "meh" shooter. The reason why the 1911 design is so fast to fire is that the trigger travel is almost nill. On a revolver, there is a VERY strong trigger return spring pushing your finger forward - on the Kahr, there's a "meh" coil spring. On my M&P, I have a "meh" coil spring in axial tension for a trigger return, and it has about .150" travel for reset.

My old BHP had next to NO tension on the trigger, and the reset was near impossible to feel. This will NOT be noticeable to people who have shot DA their whole lives. I started into the SA world early in my pistol life, and changing from a BHP to a 1911 totally fudged my world with controlled pairs and snap shots.

As I said, this is all subjective to "well, I think" and "well, I fell that's" without any measuring device. I know that I have a shot timer, and I use it all the time at the range. I'm curious how many of you actually have a shot timer and use it? It doesn't lie, and it's one of the tools that I use, along with targets and some standard drills, to determine if a different platform is more effecient FOR ME.

For example, I'm obviously no JM. On my AR15, I can fire 5 shots in approximately 1.25 seconds from a low ready, and flick the safety back on before the first casing hits the ground. The split times last time at the range were in the range of .13 seconds average for my first magazine of 30 (the second and third were closer to .20 average).

This means that in a span of .65 seconds I can fire 5 shots from my rifle at a distance of 20 yards and engage them all in a 9 inch circle. There's no "well I thinks" going on with my statements, they are what holds true for me, and my two best friends at the range (the target and the shot timer - both because they will not lie to me) back it up.

[copterdrvr]

Those are impressive numbers with the AR.

I guess my question is what is the issue with the "rate of fire" of these pistols when used in a self-defense situation? I'm 6 ft and weigh 170, in pretty good shape-been shooting pistols over 40 years now and I can get the trigger ready to go for the next shot before I get the gun centered back on the target.

Even if I'm really just trying to snap off two ultrafast rounds (first on target, second within 6 inches-hopefully!), I haven't had any issues with my CW9, PM9 or P380. It may not be an issue for me because I HAVE shot equally revolvers and both single and double action semi-autos.

Bottom line for me I guess is that it takes me more time to deal with recovering from the effects of recoil and assuring I'm on target than in dealing with the trigger-but that's just me. The guns are sweet to shoot (NOT like my Keltec P9F and P3AT!) but I can't keep them from moving while firing. Your mileage may vary of course as it's possible that you're alot stronger than I am.

[jeep45238]

I'm 5'11", 170 pounds. I'm not built very muscular, just average build. I'm a youngster at 26, and have only been into pistols for the last 4 years or so - but I've done my best to fully immerse myself into the pistol shooting world, both competitively and via combat pistol courses as funds allow. With the technique that I've been using since I got into IDPA, it relies more upon the skeletal structure to get the gun on target. I generally shoot with split times of .16 with my M&P9pro. As I have said before on here, I am about effecient tools, regardless if I like the platform or not. I LOVED my Kahr T40. I loved my 1911 (and sent over 15K rounds down the tube on it). I'm a JMB dude. I'm carrying a polymer pistol. I'm just better with the platform.

[dusty10]

That's why there are so many different firearms and manufacturers. What works for one may not work for another. I love my Dan Wesson Combat Commander 1911 but I'm not able to successfully conceal it all day due to my very active job and the wardrobe that job demands. I wish I could. So, after any good 1911 weapon, anything else is going to be different. Many 1911 shooters never adapt to another platform. Some revolver guys never adapt to another platform. It's all good. To dis the Kahrs because they are not like a 1911 somehow seems not very realistic. I don't think the Kahr designers ever intended to cut into the 1911 market or they would not have designed a DAO trigger. Like I said, it's all good.

[jeep45238]

I'm far from dissing the Kahr platform, I think it's a AWESOME defensive purpose firearm :)

As you said, that's why there is so many different platforms. That's also why I'm always trying every platform I can possibly get my hands on, and run them as hard as I possibly can.

Some day I'll get back into 1911's, but likely a 9mm to standardize my ammo and make reloading for my pistols a much faster affair. I unfortunately don't see myself with another Kahr unless they redesign the fire control to allow for a shorter reset, much like a M&P or Glock.

[noslolo]

I always carried a single action semi auto, but my favorite hand gun was a S&W 686. I spent a lot of time at the range with the Smith, so the transition to Kahr was far easier than I thought it would be. Now I just have to buy more mags, since I am now sold on the Kahr being my daily carry.