Magazine issue real or imagined?

[KahrP380owner]

New P380 owner with FTF issues and first 150 rounds (break-in)

While investigating Kahr P380 issues regarding magazine design on my Kahr as well as other handguns. I found several videos and explanations that as you load the mag to capacity, the first couple of rounds out of the gun tend to jam more frequently due to the angle at which the round leaves the mag. Specifically it 'Nose dives' due to the spring applying unequal force on the follower. Is this a real problem with specific guns or is it the normal way in which all rounds from all mags for all pistols leave the mag? Many vids on this a potential problem with multiple ideas of fixing the design flaws if you have a FTF issue. PS: I will report back after my next 100 rounds and will try to buy Winchester 95 grain next time, which I read may be helpful due to a thinner brass case. What ammo works best for you? Do I need hotter ammo during the 'break in'?
Thanking you all in advance, Bill
PS: See my first post asking questions about reasons for FTF

[Ken L]

I don't own a Kahr 380, but in my CW40 I had issues with Fiocchi ammo due to rim thickness. Failure to feed. I worked on the extractor a bit, now it feeds everything reliably. I believe I learned of this mod by reading the threads of issues others had with their Kahr 380s.

Also, I have found that handloads on the lighter side of things don't feed reliably in my Kahr but they do in my Glock. I just switched all the recipes to loads more on the upper end and the issue went away.

[KahrP380owner]

Thanks Ken L. I too have reviewed those extractor mods and read that using a higher load cartridge may help. Yes, I read that rim thickness has been cited a problem. Also, that unless the slide gets 'blown' back with enough force, the next round may not feed properly, hence the use of a higher load round.

[berettabone]

I don't own a Kahr .380, but did own a 9mm. As has been discussed in the past, what I discovered with Fiocchi ammo is that not only can there be ammo rim thickness issues, but they can be measurably longer as a whole than many other manufacturers ammunition. I don't have exact length numbers but I didn't need them. I could see the difference with the naked eye. IMHO, I believe that the added length could have caused a few issues that I had concerning feeding and getting caught nose first under the bottom of the feed ramp. Just a FYI. Also found that it was always better to run a stout ammo. Those springs are tight.

[DavidR]

Kahr 380s are hit or miss. They seem to be more hit than miss lately but if you got a dud I would send it back.

IMO - multiple failures with multiple magazines equals dud.

[getsome]

I agree, send it back on their dime and give Kahr a chance at making it right for you and when it comes back if it’s not 100% trade it for something else you can trust your life with....Good luck

[King Rat]

I am not sure the guns reported as duds are really that. Just do not buy into it. I think the problem comes down to two things. Proper Break in and limp wresting. Many People swear they do not do this but they do, have seen it so many times over the years. I had a guy at the range give the same complaints and I asked him if he would let let take it home. Took it home and gave it back running fine. There are some sticky's on how to break one in so I will not go into detail. But the first thing IMO is the magazines. They are high quality and they are strong. I load them to full capacity and let them take a"SET" for 48 hrs. Then take a Wooden dowel and Exercise the Spring up and down. The same with the Recoil spring. Rack it and let it take a "SET" for 48 hrs. Then just racking he slide over and over while watching TV etc.
I also have been shooting these small guns for so long and have seen people limp wrest them so many times. Especially when knew. These guns have very Tight Tolerences and will not tolerate limp wresting, especially when NEW. I have seen this with not only Kahr but other small 380's and some Micro 9mm's. And then just shoot them. Hot ammo to start off with. Some people will not want to hear this, but If times were normal and a gun came back from Kahr and the owner still complained, I would not hesitate to buy it from the owner in I was in the Market for another one.
I love shooting Pocket guns in 380, it is a hobby I stated over 10 years ago with the LCP first came out. Shoot them on a regular basis each month and a whole lot of rounds. Belong to a small group that meets once a month to have informal matches. If you can have patience there is a good chance that you will have one of the finest small 380's ever made.

This 380 Kahr ran perfectly on the first day at the range and spending a good time with Pre Break in. and using older magazines. 200 rounds of mixed ammo on this day. PS for magazines, until they are broken in well, shoot them loaded minus one round each
time at the range until you know they are broken in.

http://i.imgur.com/eVsR9lf.jpg?5 (https://imgur.com/eVsR9lf)

[berettabone]

I also have seen many many people limp wrist small firearms. I was guilty of it the first time I shot an MK. When/If you're used to shooting handguns that are "less temperamental" it can be quite a shock that your new firearm isn't running well. Many shooters just DO NOT KNOW that their wrist is breaking down. Shooters with weaker hand or wrist strength have issues. Probably shouldn't own a Kahr. My wife's LCP II runs like a champ and is surprisingly accurate. She has wrist strength issues, so a Kahr wasn't in the cards. Once you get the concentration level correct as far as grip, and get used to these small guns, they are a riot to shoot.

[DavidR]

Good advice posted here on break in process and grip technique. None of that changes the fact that Kahr’s reputation for 380 problems is well-deserved.

Full disclosure:

I owned a CW380 that was a dud right out of the box. Sent it back to Kahr and it still didn’t work right when they sent it back.

I currently own a CT380 that is a gem.

[King Rat]

I also have seen many many people limp wrist small firearms. I was guilty of it the first time I shot an MK. When/If you're used to shooting handguns that are "less temperamental" it can be quite a shock that your new firearm isn't running well. Many shooters just DO NOT KNOW that their wrist is breaking down. Shooters with weaker hand or wrist strength have issues. Probably shouldn't own a Kahr. My wife's LCP II runs like a champ and is surprisingly accurate. She has wrist strength issues, so a Kahr wasn't in the cards. Once you get the concentration level correct as far as grip, and get used to these small guns, they are a riot to shoot.


I bought the LCP when it was first on the Market. That generation had a very long trigger pull, DAO. The only time I had issues was when I was limp wristing the gun. Keeping at it and shooting it often corrected the issue and the gun ran reliably from then on. (actually I ran it reliably). They they came out with the second Generation which was a much better DAO and of course i had no issues. The latest generation now has a light short trigger like a lot of striker fired guns.
I believe the issue with the small guns and the DAO trigger causes those that are not trained with it to pull the gun down which further induces Limp Wristing.
I do not believe a gun sent back to Kahr and then returned is always the gun's fault, but again in most cases just limp wristing again. Kahr checks out the gun, it shoots fine, they send it back after doing some minor work and the owner does the same thing and limp wrest the gun yet again and bashes it.
Not saying there are not some real issues but I believe them to be a very small percentage, but that is true with all guns.

Face it, most owners of small 380 do not get a lot of range time like they should. Especially with a DAO pistol.
The internet is full of these kind of remarks about a gun with a history of this or that. One example is the LCR9mm. All kinds of post that the gun would constantly jump crimp when shot. That also turned out to be just internet BS. Yes, on some cheap ammo, but about 6,000 rds later proved to me and others that it was just that, BS.

In fact the guy behind the Counter at my Local LG,now a manager advised me to not buy the gun as it would jump crimp. Now all these years later, I make it a point to go see him on my way out from the range to tell him how thankful I am that he encouraged me to buy the gun as It is one of favorites to shoot and runs like a sewing machine. He just looks at me like a deer with his eyes caught in the head lights.

[dao]

jump crimp?

[KahrP380owner]

Thank you all for you comments and advice. I went to the range yesterday and ran another 100 rounds (Blazer 95 grain) through it. [Caveat: I am a new shooter.] Two days prior to heading out I (1) cleaned the gun and lubed/oiled it. (2) I cycled the slide a hundred more times and also dry fired it it a bunch. (3) I loaded the mags completely and let them sit for two days and also worked the mag follower down to the bottom repeatedly to work the spring. (4) I locked the slide back and let it sit overnight. (5) I cycled a round from a mag with only 5 bullets ,slowly, and noted the first one would rise while entering the battery. (6) This, to me, would tend to tilt the bullet in such a way that would be the opposite of 'nosediving'. I also noted that it would drag the following bullet out of the mag a little bit. (7) I did read that it is not uncommon to do so and why it happens. (8) At the range I cycled the first bullet using with the slide locked back and into battery using the slide release as recommended by Kahr. (9) I never had a FTF on the first round. (10) I used all three mags. (11) I had less FTF issued than my first time with the gun earlier in the week. [Read my very first post about FTF issues] (12) The FTF issues I had yesterday were on the 2nd to 5th round. This occurred intermittently with all mags used. (13) The issue was 'nose diving' and able to clear the jam by simply pulling the slide back and releasing it each time, successfully. (14) I paid close attention to maintaining a straight, stiff wrist and strong grip and a gentle pull on the trigger to maintain my aim. (15) This time at the range, all of my shots were well to the left and low of my aim compared to the first time several days ago. I thought for a moment that I altered the factory set of the sites with all of exercising the slide back (100's of times) prior to range day. I APPRECIATE all of the advice including sending it back to Kahr, however I would want to cycle at least 300 rounds through it first. I am up to around 200 rounds now. Any additional advice from all of you is still appreciated. Any further thoughts>?

[dao]

It is very common to pull low left for right handed shooters with a double action trigger pull. It has to do with the hand moving, albeit slightly as the trigger is pulled all the way to the rear.

Some Kahrs take more break-in, others not so much. It sounds like you have done all the necessary things to get yours to that point. If you are absolutely sure you are not limp-wristing you have a couple/few of options before sending it in. Try some different mags (and number each for id later). And have someone else shoot the gun, preferably somebody that is not also a new shooter. Also, keep track of what ammo it is doing this with. Some guns just will not work with a specific brand, or type of ammo, (eg hollow point vs. ball), while others will eat everything you feed it.

I would suggest sticking with it. You still have a bit more investigation to do. Good luck!

[Bawanna]

What he said^^^ Low and left will improve with trigger time. Already sounds like things are improving a bit.
I'm not sure of the power level of Blazer in 380, I've had no issue with it in 9 and 45 but new Kahrs to seem to thrive on full power ammo to make things run. They will run the rest after things work themselves out.

Dragging a round out a bit with the top round is pretty common on all makes, not really a concern there.

[KahrP380owner]

Bawanna and DAO...Thank you for your input. I will try to locate hotter ammo. All I have used is the 95 grain Blazer FMJ. Now, finding any ammo here in S. Calif is difficult let alone finding 100 grain 380, but I will try. I need to stick with it as you say, before I send it back, which I don't want to do. Next time at the range I will find another shooter to fire it. Also I was aware that my left low shots are my fault due to trigger pull. BTW my targets were at 6 or 7 yards. I'll keep working on it. I still think my grip is good as I control the recoil well and able to get my next shot targeted quickly. BTW - I do own and shoot my Springfield XDM-OSP 4.5 with a 19 round mag and a modified trigger (3.5 lb pull) and a red dot sight fairly well, but by no means expert or even close, but I can hit what i am aiming for. :)

[dao]

Welcome to the club of "no means expert or even close" shooters :) I've been a member for a long, long time. Also like you, I'm happy that I can hit what I'm aiming at though!

[dustnchips]

I have a cw380 nd 2 P380s (one is a girlfriends) The CW had some issues until I did the new Kahr Prep. Since then I have had no issues. I did the Prep on the Ps and never had an issue. I shot a bunch of Blazer through the CW after break in and never had a problem with it. With the CW I shot Winchester white box and some Remington ball during break in. I had the same low left problem at first, but I have worked through it now. During the prep I also polished the bottom of the stripper ramp as I felt that it might drag over the round in the Mag as the slide when back. I also cleaned and lubed the mags with silicone spray. You might try useing a bit of 600 grit to sand the inside of the mag where the holes are for checking load level.

[KahrP380owner]

dustnchips...thanks for your response. I'm glad to hear that Blazer worked for you. I will sand the inside of the mag, clean and lube as you say. I will also polish the bottom of the stripper ramp and keep you all posted as soon as I can find 380 ammo here

[berettabone]

Blazer ammo is on the weak side for sure. Shot lots of it in 9mm and .40.

[Canine Dave]

Blazer ammo is on the weak side for sure. Shot lots of it in 9mm and .40.

On the weak side of what? Both AL and brass (95gr bullet) are 945fps muzzle velocity.

Is the opposite of weak, strong? What do you consider a strong round in this calibre? Within SAAMI pressure specifications.

[King Rat]

On the weak side of what? Both AL and brass (95gr bullet) are 945fps muzzle velocity.

Is the opposite of weak, strong? What do you consider a strong round in this calibre? Within SAAMI pressure specifications.


Before the ammo riot shortage I shot and stocked up with PRECISIONONE Plus P. I use it for carry and Break in. I also stocked up on the standard ammo for range work. However I also shoot other varieties of ammo like Remington etc. For myself the PrecisionOne give the best accuracy results with both the Pico and the Kahr. Never had a failure of any kind.

https://i.imgur.com/8RUqhgG.jpg?3

Here is the test result from about 5 years ago with just the STANDARD AMMO (before they came out with the PlusP.

https://i.imgur.com/Xxgp7l7.jpg?1 Before Plus P with standard ammo https://i.imgur.com/IplZMtt.jpg?1

[berettabone]

On the weak side of what? Both AL and brass (95gr bullet) are 945fps muzzle velocity.

Is the opposite of weak, strong? What do you consider a strong round in this calibre? Within SAAMI pressure specifications. First, you have to somewhat ignore FPS numbers because they are subjective and usually slightly exaggerated. Different manufacturers have different powder blends that they use to produce their ammo. As an example, although Aguila and Remington and Winchester etc. may have similar FPS numbers in a certain caliber, you can physically feel the power difference shooting different manufacturers ammo.

[Canine Dave]

OK. I get it now.

[berettabone]

From my personal experience, I find Win White box and Blazer to be similar in power feel. Sellier and Bellot, Aguila, Remington and Federal all feel like they have a bit more power. Of course, the type of firearm and barrel length do play a major factor in FPS numbers. A lot of ammo numbers come from use out of a 4+" barrel. Out of the smaller mouse guns, I would predict a 100ft. or more drop in FPS.