I think Kahr is done

[MMyers1970]

I bought my first Kahr when the P9 first hit the market. At the time, it was groundbreaking. There were no polymer-framed, striker fired, single-stack 9mms on the market. This is years before the Shield and a decade before the G43. Kel-Tec may have had something, but come on.

Now, not only were there plenty of single stack option, multiple makers have followed SIG and developed ultracompact 10 round pistols.

It was bad enough when SIG brought out the P365, but now we also have the Springfield Hellcat, the Shield Plus, and the Ruger Max 9. The last two are going to sell like hotcakes, if history is any indication. It won't be long before Smith gets production ramped up and one can buy a Shield Plus for just over $300. Same for the Ruger Max 9.

And where is Kahr? Nowhere to be seen. If I was a new gun buyer, and I had a choice of a CM9 and a pistol just a tad thicker that carried four more rounds in the mag, it's a no-brainer.

Don't get me wrong. I love my Kahr pistols. I think my steel Kahrs are some of the finest production pistols on the market. The MK9 is a little jewel. But Kahr can't possibly sell very many of them.

[JohnR]

I wouldn’t dismiss Keltec so fast, they’re innovating more every month than Kahr is every decade, and selling like hotcakes for over MSRP. They had a small 11-rounder way before the 365 Hellmax Pluses came along, but recently discontinued it. I expect they have a replacement in the works.

[MMyers1970]

Kel-Tec is a company which has no problem innovating, then builds their firearms out of the worst materials and to the lowest quality they can. That's their business model, and I can't fault them for it, but they just feel cheap to me.

[DavidR]

I agree. I can’t imagine that Kahr sells many of their polymer 9s. I think it’s too late for them to catch up and they may eventually stop producing them.

They’re still competitive in the micro 380 market but who knows how long that will last.

[Armybrat]

Makes me wonder what Justin Moon has been thinking lately. It is hard to imagine him sitting on his laurels this long.

I’ve waited long enough for a small Kahr double stack like the Sig to no avail, and now intend to acquire a Ruger Max-9.... or two.

[King Rat]

I have no desire,want or need for a double stack, Practical EDC gun. 15 1/2 oz is plenty of weight as it is. Perfect size for a 9mm all day. every day carry carry. Would love to see Kahr make a even lighter weight that shoots as fine as the Kahr. I cannot see any reason to say Kahr is Done. On the contrary. How about we see the other manufacturers step up to the plate and produce a gun that weighs the same or less and the same size and shoots as fine as the Kahr CM/PM and with a great DAO. .

[DavidR]

Well, at least they have one customer.

[JohnR]

I agree that Kahr might benefit from some good suggestions we've made here, but I'm not going to badmouth them. They make a good product that seems to sell well, the rest is their business, not mine.

[King Rat]

Well, at least they have one customer.


Yep and one for life. I have no desire to run off and spend $600 for a heavier gun. Lol, it gets so bad that I have to carry extra rounds more than 7, I will just carry two Kahrs, one on each side. At least they way will have a balanced load and heck 14 rounds. It was interesting to see two Major gun forums do a survey poll with all their members. 99% had never even used the EDC. Amd the small percentage that had, had not shot more than one round, and a minuscule of that percentage used more than one round. There are MORE than just Kahr's that has not jumped onto to the internet band wagon of Double Stack magazines for more rounds. Yes, you can go to the range and for sure, many do need more, by the way they shoot. Maybe spray and Pray is a good tactic. Not for me. Prefer to focus on the first round and drawing fast. and then double taps etc
I guess the new fad of cramming more rounds into a firearm will go on for a while in the future. Maybe 380's will Like the Kahr etc. will retain the same size but have more. Personally not interested. But, for those that believe they really need more rounds and have $600 to spend (and that is a lot of ammo, that could be used for training) I say go for it. And why just 10-13? My gosh, why not 17?
But to say a gun manufacture is going out of business or becoming obsolete is IMO ridiculous. Their is real life and there is the internet.

[Armybrat]

I don’t think Kahr is done by a long shot. I’d just like to have them make a compact double stack 9.
I’m a bad shot (poor eyesight). ;)

[DavidR]

I’m pretty sure Kahr could do what S&W did with the Shield. Reduce the thickness of the polymer in the grip, make the grip a little wider and redesign the magazine to be a double stack tapering to a single stack. That would probably make the CM9 9+1 and allow it to compete better against Sig Sauer, Springfield, Smith and Ruger.

[MMyers1970]

I’m pretty sure Kahr could do what S&W did with the Shield. Reduce the thickness of the polymer in the grip, make the grip a little wider and redesign the magazine to be a double stack tapering to a single stack. That would probably make the CM9 9+1 and allow it to compete better against Sig Sauer, Springfield, Smith and Ruger.


Not only could they, but they are well past the point where they should have. I've fired a P365 and carry a CM9, and the difference between them, dimensionally, is negligible.

Ignoring this part of the market is inexplicable. The double stack isn't about us, the Kahr owner. It's about the guy who needs his first CCW and has to choose at the gun store. It's bad enough that Kahr is saddled with a name which carries no cachet, but now they will be a single stack in a world of similarly sized doubles. I don't know who is going to choose 6 rounds when they can choose 10.

They've waited so long they'll be competing against the Shield Plus and the Max 9, and those companies are big enough those pistols can be super cheap before long. Remember when Palmetto State Armory was practically giving Shields away? If they and Ruger can get street price on those to the sub-$400 price, it's going to be difficult for anyone to compete.

[MMyers1970]

I agree. I can’t imagine that Kahr sells many of their polymer 9s. I think it’s too late for them to catch up and they may eventually stop producing them.

They’re still competitive in the micro 380 market but who knows how long that will last."

I agree, especially on the .380. But Ruger has the LCPII now, and that has everything the CW380 has, with the added benefit of actually working. LOL

[King Rat]

's
"

I agree, especially on the .380. But Ruger has the LCPII now, and that has everything the CW380 has, with the added benefit of actually working. LOL


Lol, my two work just fine. And I have owned 4 LCP's all had to be replaced and now have one left. And when the LCP folds and it will, the Kahr will keep on trucking. A much better quality in every way. You might want to contact Ruger and see when they will come out with decent sights not to mention night sights. And for the LCPll trigger. Not even close to the Kahr. I also bought the LCPll 22.cal and regretting it every time I shoot it. A long trigger pull that feels like the trigger spring is broken and then a wall and then a fast bang.
I was on the Ruger Forum for years. Also the ELSIE Pea fourm since the gun first appeared on the market in 2009. If you think Ruger LCP's do not fail then what I can say. I bet they have had a million returned of all kinds or reasons. You can knock the Kahr all you want, but I have shot both for years. I wore out the LCP's many times. Many times repaired and then finally replaced. .

[O'Dell]

Well, at least they have one customer.

Make that two! I am perfectly happy with my PM9 and even happier with the MK40N. The CM45 and CW45 are fine too. I have no desire or need for a double stack. If I can't defend myself with six or seven rounds, I'm not in a defensive position, I'm in a war.

[Bawanna]

Exactly, if your going to war (which we might be soon) get a bigger gun and lots of big capacity magazines.
Maybe some of you marketing experts could invent a gun smaller than the 380 but you flip a micro switch and it turns into a real gun with 20 round magazine, start there and then we'll ask for a 50 round magazine.

[DavidR]

To me it’s not really a question of whether Kahr’s poly 9s are adequate or good enough. It’s that the market has moved and left Kahr behind.

All of us on here like or even love our Kahrs. I simply don’t believe that Kahr offers a competitive product in today’s poly 9 market and although I don’t have the data to prove that point, I think sales data for the last three years would show that. With the new offerings from Smith and Ruger I think the next three years will be even worse.

Long term that doesn’t bode well.

[getsome]

I’ll cast my vote with King Rat and O’Dell that the single stack Kahr pistols are the cats a$$ and there is no need to improve on the design....I pocket carry so the gun has to be small and thin to get a good draw and for me having a long safe smooth trigger is very important so as to prevent an accident....I was going to trade for a Sig 365 when they first came out but the very short, light “crisp” trigger on the Sig while great for the range wouldn’t work for me for pocket draw and the slight extra thickness and weight of more rounds told me to keep the tried and true PM9.....

Most cases of having to use a CCW weapon for self defense happens at bad breath distance and take 3-4 rounds max....I always carry a spare mag in my back pocket which gives me 13 rounds which is more than enough.....Guns are tools, find one you like and shoot well and practice with it and it will serve you well......For me the Kahr PM9 is the perfect everyday carry weapon and needs no improvement....

[DavidR]

We’re up to three customers now. [emoji16] Kahr better add a production shift.

[getsome]

I hope they do because there is a very high probability that under Uncle Joe and Commie La La we will see a high capacity magazine ban in the near future and all that money the other manufactures spent making high cap pistols will be wasted at which point Justin Moon can make his own YouTube “Who’s Your Daddy Now” video

[340pd]

Kahr is fine and they offer a totally different trigger system which is a great alternative to the usual striker fired offerings and replicates the feel of our loved revolvers.
A good point was made about high capacity mags and I envision changes in laws which will at best make owning anything over 10 round capacity troublesome.
I for one, own one ten round mag for every gun that I no longer own.

[guido4198]

I bought my CM9 in 2013 when NONE of these newer Hi-cap. 9mm carry pistols were available. IF I were starting from scratch today... I doubt the CM9 would be my choice. I have "capacity concerns" which is why I have upgraded the magazines for the CM9 and carry a spare upgraded magazine in my pocket. I have pretty much quit carrying my sweet little S&W 642 altogether. The CM9 is a really great EDC option, there's no question. In my lifetime ( I'm 71) I've pretty much always carried a firearm on my person, legally or otherwise. This topic is not something new to me.
The CM9 is the first one that I've found easy to have on me everyday, all the time and not "feel it" weighing on me, being in the way...or anything like that. As a result..it's on me everyday everywhere I go. THAT is the true test. The baddest hi-capacity handgun made is worthless to you in a drawer. My CM9 is never left in a drawer. Unfortunately for Kahr, that appreciation isn't immediately obvious when a new customer is evaluating their options in 2021.

[MMyers1970]

To me it’s not really a question of whether Kahr’s poly 9s are adequate or good enough. It’s that the market has moved and left Kahr behind.

All of us on here like or even love our Kahrs. I simply don’t believe that Kahr offers a competitive product in today’s poly 9 market and although I don’t have the data to prove that point, I think sales data for the last three years would show that. With the new offerings from Smith and Ruger I think the next three years will be even worse.

Long term that doesn’t bode well.

THANK YOU! Finally someone who understands the issue at hand. It's not "Oh I love my Kahrs as they are I don't want to change anything who needs that many rounds blah blah blah"----it's that in a market where 10 round pistols which are easily concealable and within millimeters of the size of a CM9 exist, NEW buyers aren't going to opt for 6 instead of 10.

It's like we're in the 1980s and Kahr is till trying to sell full sized single stack 9mms while everybody else has 17 round Wondernines. They are behind the times, and before long they won't sell anything.

[MMyers1970]

Make that two! I am perfectly happy with my PM9 and even happier with the MK40N. The CM45 and CW45 are fine too. I have no desire or need for a double stack. If I can't defend myself with six or seven rounds, I'm not in a defensive position, I'm in a war.

Again---you are looking at things from the position of someone who already owns a PM9. But you're not the customer Kahr needs to grab. They need to worry about the NEW buyer, the person who's buying their very first CCW. This person is going to walk into a gun store and see a P365, a Hellcat, a Max 9, and a Shield Plus, all of which are not only comparable in size to a P9, but comparable in size to a PM9. That person is NOT going to choose to carry 7 rounds when they can carry 11.

Your argument is the exact one old guys gave when they were questioned about carrying J frames or Detective Specials----"I have six rounds, why would I need 8?"

The defensive nature of some of the folks in this thread is exactly why Kahr is going to fail.

[MMyers1970]

I bought my CM9 in 2013 when NONE of these newer Hi-cap. 9mm carry pistols were available. IF I were starting from scratch today... I doubt the CM9 would be my choice. I have "capacity concerns" which is why I have upgraded the magazines for the CM9 and carry a spare upgraded magazine in my pocket. I have pretty much quit carrying my sweet little S&W 642 altogether. The CM9 is a really great EDC option, there's no question. In my lifetime ( I'm 71) I've pretty much always carried a firearm on my person, legally or otherwise. This topic is not something new to me.
The CM9 is the first one that I've found easy to have on me everyday, all the time and not "feel it" weighing on me, being in the way...or anything like that. As a result..it's on me everyday everywhere I go. THAT is the true test. The baddest hi-capacity handgun made is worthless to you in a drawer. My CM9 is never left in a drawer. Unfortunately for Kahr, that appreciation isn't immediately obvious when a new customer is evaluating their options in 2021.

More capacity in a similar sized platform is a no-brainer. I've seen some folks in this thread talk about weight being the reason they wouldn't choose the additional capacity---but these same folks wouldn't say anything about someone carrying an MK9, which is a heavy little lump.

Kahr has to stay with the times to get NEW customers. They can't depend on people like this group, who buy multiple Kahrs. And if they think the future is going to be supported by customers buying the unique things ONLY Kahr makes(the K, MK, and T lines), they're sadly mistaken.

[MMyers1970]

Kahr is fine and they offer a totally different trigger system which is a great alternative to the usual striker fired offerings and replicates the feel of our loved revolvers.
A good point was made about high capacity mags and I envision changes in laws which will at best make owning anything over 10 round capacity troublesome.
I for one, own one ten round mag for every gun that I no longer own.


You just made the point----IF a law is passed restricting mag capacity to 10 rounds, then the obvious choice will be buying a 10 round pistol. When the AWB was in effect, companies looked to the CCW market as a place to make money. That's when Smith and Wesson brought out all their excellent singlestack compact carry pistols, SIG brought out the P239, etc.

In a world of tiny 10 round pistols, a 6 round pistol won't sell.

[JohnR]

I don’t think the market shifted, it expanded. S&W and Ruger still sell a lot of 5 shot revolvers. They sell small 10+ round 9mm semis too, so they cover the bases.

Look at Rock Island Armory , almost all they do is 1911s. No micro PocketMax 360Cats there. They also don’t have a forum for customers to complain, either.

[berettabone]

Again---you are looking at things from the position of someone who already owns a PM9. But you're not the customer Kahr needs to grab. They need to worry about the NEW buyer, the person who's buying their very first CCW. This person is going to walk into a gun store and see a P365, a Hellcat, a Max 9, and a Shield Plus, all of which are not only comparable in size to a P9, but comparable in size to a PM9. That person is NOT going to choose to carry 7 rounds when they can carry 11.
argument is the exact one old guys gave when they were questioned about carrying J frames or Detective Specials----"I have six rounds, why would I need 8?"
The defensive nature of some of the folks in this thread is exactly why Kahr is going to fail. People are too hung up on capacity. Kahr's have enough capacity. They have a nice trigger. That's all they've got. I guarantee you that if you ever have to unload your high capacity firearm for self protection, the attorney's will have a field day with you. They will hang you out to dry. I switched to a revolver. Holds as many shots as a Kahr and is basically trouble free. Trigger is as good if not better. From what I have seen and experienced, most people would be shooting in to thin air. They carry these high capacity firearms and can't hit the broad side of a barn at 30 ft. A pretty dangerous thing to have someone walking around with a high capacity gun and can't use it. You have to think about the innocent sheep standing around when using these high cap guns.

[King Rat]

More capacity in a similar sized platform is a no-brainer. I've seen some folks in this thread talk about weight being the reason they wouldn't choose the additional capacity---but these same folks wouldn't say anything about someone carrying an MK9, which is a heavy little lump.

Kahr has to stay with the times to get NEW customers. They can't depend on people like this group, who buy multiple Kahrs. And if they think the future is going to be supported by customers buying the unique things ONLY Kahr makes(the K, MK, and T lines), they're sadly mistaken.

Got news for ya, many people that advocate for smaller guns lighter weight HAVE very well voiced against the MK9 as a carry gun because of weight, I have no idea where you have been. I would love to have one, but not for carry. I have many guns to include heavier guns. I just do not carry them. To say that weight does not matter is preposterous. A ounce of weight is significant in the EDC world. You seem to think that the only thing that matters in choosing a firearm is capacity. That Kahr will never survive. Where do you get your information? Please post this for us. For Gosh sake, many people buy 5 round snubbies, many people buy ALL kinds of guns including 1911's that are NOT high capacity. Are all the manufactures doomed just because a internet poster thinks high capacity in a carry gun is the only criteria a person chooses a firearm?
Your remark that people that do not buy a higher capcity gun in a similar platform is what you call a no Brainer. Let me tell you about a few no brainers at my Club. We have a small group of about 5 people, very experienced shooters that put money in a pot and will test out new guns. We did this with the Sig 365 for a thousand rounds. I will not go into full detail, but it was not the stellar shooter of some single stacks for sure. No one of the group ran out and bought one other than lady of the group, and she has since sold the gun. Nothing against the gun other that to say it is not their cup of tea for various reasons and no one gave a flying fig about the extra couple of rounds.Ironically right after that test, I bought yet a second Kahr CM9.
No one buys a 6 round gun any more according to you. LOL, When The Ruger LCP debuted in 2009, they sold MILLIONS and they still do. And regardless of your views on the cartridge, millions of People continue to buy the LCP and other small 380's. And there IS a reason for that. I will post about that later. Maybe size and weight or less weight DO MATTER.
Choosing a gun for EDC has many factors and NOT just capacity. And that is a NO BRAINER. I will talk about weight later.

PS by the way, if money were no object and their no ammo shortage, I would damn sure love to have a MK. but know, not my personal choice for EDC. I would also love to have a Kimber K6 but again not for EDC. And EDC means every day carry. I am not saying I would never carry it. A lot of times I carry a Snubbiie. I love the Ruger LCR9mm but carry the Smith 642 because of less weight. I actually love my Beretta Nano and APX Carry for their fine smooth shooting of any of the small guns I have shot, but carry the Kahr EDC. And that darn CM 9 beats every thing in the entire line up for EDC. Yes I want more Kahrs in all sizes. I have shot many and love them.

[MMyers1970]

Got news for ya, many people that advocate for smaller guns lighter weight HAVE very well voiced against the MK9 as a carry gun because of weight, I have no idea where you have been. I would love to have one, but not for carry. I have many guns to include heavier guns. I just do not carry them. To say that weight does not matter is preposterous. A ounce of weight is significant in the EDC world. You seem to think that the only thing that matters in choosing a firearm is capacity. That Kahr will never survive. Where do you get your information? Please post this for us. For Gosh sake, many people buy 5 round snubbies, many people buy ALL kinds of guns including 1911's that are NOT high capacity. Are all the manufactures doomed just because a internet poster thinks high capacity in a carry gun is the only criteria a person chooses a firearm?
Your remark that people that do not buy a higher capcity gun in a similar platform is what you call a no Brainer. Let me tell you about a few no brainers at my Club. We have a small group of about 5 people, very experienced shooters that put money in a pot and will test out new guns. We did this with the Sig 365 for a thousand rounds. I will not go into full detail, but it was not the stellar shooter of some single stacks for sure. No one of the group ran out and bought one other than lady of the group, and she has since sold the gun. Nothing against the gun other that to say it is not their cup of tea for various reasons and no one gave a flying fig about the extra couple of rounds.Ironically right after that test, I bought yet a second Kahr CM9.
No one buys a 6 round gun any more according to you. LOL, When The Ruger LCP debuted in 2009, they sold MILLIONS and they still do. And regardless of your views on the cartridge, millions of People continue to buy the LCP and other small 380's. And there IS a reason for that. I will post about that later.
Choosing a gun for EDC has many factors and NOT just capacity. And that is a NO BRAINER. I will talk about weight later.

None of what you said addresses the direction of the market. You are too close to this issue, and you keep missing the point.

The LCP is a different market than a main EDC ultracompact 9mm.

As are J frames.

[DavidR]

Which of the following statements is not true:

1. People who want a small-framed snubby buy 5 round small-framed snubbies because 10 round small-framed snubbies are not available.

2. People who want a tiny-framed 380 buy 6 round tiny-framed 380s because 10 round tiny-framed 380s are not available.

3. People who want a micro compact 9 buy 6 round micro compact 9s because 10 round micro compact 9s are not available.

[King Rat]

None of what you said addresses the direction of the market. You are too close to this issue, and you keep missing the point.

The LCP is a different market than a main EDC ultracompact 9mm.

As are J frames.

I understand marketing very well and my comparisons with other guns was to show that the Market is not always the future and that the market of what you perceive to be, is not the true market. And not all people buy because of the internet market. Maketing in itself is a lot about selling ads, and trends or fads which go and come. If Sig came out with another single stack 9mm, it would not surprise me in the least. Maybe you missed my point.

[King Rat]

Which of the following statements is not true:

People who want a small-framed snubby buy 5 round small-framed snubbies because 10 round small-framed snubbies are not available.

People who want a tiny-framed 380 buy 6 round tiny-framed 380s because 10 round tiny-framed 380s are not available.

People who want a micro compact 9 buy 6 round micro compact 9s because 10 round micro compact 9s are not available.

They are all not true. Good point.

[DavidR]

They are all not true. Good point.

It’s possible you misread my post.

[MMyers1970]

Which of the following statements is not true:

1. People who want a small-framed snubby buy 5 round small-framed snubbies because 10 round small-framed snubbies are not available.

2. People who want a tiny-framed 380 buy 6 round tiny-framed 380s because 10 round tiny-framed 380s are not available.

3. People who want a micro compact 9 buy 6 round micro compact 9s because 10 round micro compact 9s are not available.

Well, it's impossible to make a small-frame 10 round snubbie in the same caliber as a 5 round snubbie.
It's also impossible to make a 10 round .380 around the same size as a 6 round tiny-framed .380. Those are pocket guns and every millimeter counts.

But SIG and the others have made pistols which are within millimeters of being identical to 6 round pistols, and since the vast majority of them are carried in holster on belts, either IWB or OWB, the slight size change doesn't matter.

If I was shopping for a handgun today, my first carry pistol, there is no reason NOT to choose the additional capacity.

[DavidR]

Well, it's impossible to make a small-frame 10 round snubbie in the same caliber as a 5 round snubbie.
It's also impossible to make a 10 round .380 around the same size as a 6 round tiny-framed .380. Those are pocket guns and every millimeter counts.

But SIG and the others have made pistols which are within millimeters of being identical to 6 round pistols, and since the vast majority of them are carried in holster on belts, either IWB or OWB, the slight size change doesn't matter.

If I was shopping for a handgun today, my first carry pistol, there is no reason NOT to choose the additional capacity.

We’re in complete agreement. People buy low capacity snubbies and pocket 380s because they can’t get them with high capacity. Micro compact 9s are a different story.

The CM9 could still fill a niche for some people who want to pocket carry a 9 as it’s a tiny bit smaller than something like the 365.

[berettabone]

Well, it's impossible to make a small-frame 10 round snubbie in the same caliber as a 5 round snubbie.
It's also impossible to make a 10 round .380 around the same size as a 6 round tiny-framed .380. Those are pocket guns and every millimeter counts.

But SIG and the others have made pistols which are within millimeters of being identical to 6 round pistols, and since the vast majority of them are carried in holster on belts, either IWB or OWB, the slight size change doesn't matter.

If I was shopping for a handgun today, my first carry pistol, there is no reason NOT to choose the additional capacity. I think you need a new measuring device. The millimeters you mention are awfully large millimeters. Sig 365 is 5.8 in. long, 4.3in high and weighs 17.8 ozs. The Hellcat is 6 in long, 4.0 in. high and weighs 17.9 ozs. The LCR II for example is 5.2 in. long 3.71 in. high and weighs 11.2 ozs. So much for a millimeters example. Quite a large difference between length, height and weight and substantially more than "millimeters". As has been mentioned, some of these new high capacity firearms are not the "cream of the crop" as far as accuracy and being shooter friendly. Handgun capacity is the last thing I think of when contemplating a carry firearm. Saying screw the caliber wars, I will put the stopping power, ease of use, and reliability of my 5 shot .357 revolver over any of the previously mentioned example firearms. Unless you're going to Afghanistan, worrying about capacity is a waste of time. If you look at stats, all that extra ammo and extra weight will be useless since most responses in defensive situations last less that 3 seconds and 3 rds. Too many new shooters worrying about capacity instead of comfort, accuracy, ease of use, weight/ease of carry, sights, trigger. BTW, I carried one of those "heavy lump" MK9's for 9 years. OWB, IWB and pocket. If I wasn't older than dirt, I'd probably still be carrying it. Also, my wifey's LCP II is more accurate than my Kahr was for sure, even with lousy sights.

[MahrLalk]

We’re in complete agreement. People buy low capacity snubbies and pocket 380s because they can’t get them with high capacity. Micro compact 9s are a different story.

The CM9 could still fill a niche for some people who want to pocket carry a 9 as it’s a tiny bit smaller than something like the 365.

I only bought a Kahr because I want a small 380. The micro-9 market is clearly heading towards 1.5-stack mags and optics ready slides. With Kahr not making any "new" product since the 2000s, it may still live but at least it's not growing. Where is Rohrbaugh now?

Also with new innovations in holsters and carrying methods, the advantages of pocket carry may diminish. Where will Kahr stand then?

Just my 2c. I'm new so please go easy on me. :)

[MMyers1970]

I only bought a Kahr because I want a small 380. The micro-9 market is clearly heading towards 1.5-stack mags and optics ready slides. With Kahr not making any "new" product since the 2000s, it may still live but at least it's not growing. Where is Rohrbaugh now?

Also with new innovations in holsters and carrying methods, the advantages of pocket carry may diminish. Where will Kahr stand then?

Just my 2c. I'm new so please go easy on me. :)

I bought my CW380 because I have a lot of trigger time on Kahrs, but also because it was the smallest "real pistol" .380 on the market. The LCP and the other Kel-Tec clones have lousy triggers and poor sights. And Kahr OWNED that market for years. But now the LCPII has a short, crisp trigger, does all the things the Kahr does, plus it works AND is made by a company with actual good customer service.

There will always be a desire for pocket carry, and small .380s are perfect for that---but if the Kahr is no longer the best semi-auto at that, I don't know what Kahr is going to do.

Rohrbaugh's products are now made by Remington, poorly. The tiny .380 is evidently a tough product to make work unless you make it a blowback design. That's why the CW380 is such a problem child. Ruger has apparently made it work.

I don't want people to think I'm ragging on Kahr---I love my Kahr pistols, and I carry one every day. But I realize the market is leaving them behind, and if they don't invest some money in their product, they're going to die. I've heard talk that Kahr Firearms Group is doing very well with their other divisions. People are buying the Auto-Ordinance, Magnum Research/Desert Eagle, and BFR lines aplenty.

I think they doomed themselves when they brought out the "Value Line". It allowed them to sell more pistols, but they also rendered their other polymer line kind of superfluous. And, as much as I love the steel pistols, those are a niche item. Reports are they've sold less than 2000 Kahr T9s in the entire history of its existence. They can't possibly sell many K or MKs either. If those are all that set them apart from other makers, they're in trouble.

[MahrLalk]

MMyers1970, I 100% agree with you here. I bought a CW380 instead of an LCP II for Kahr's useful sights, smooth DAO trigger, and aesthetics. But I do know that many folks prefer the crisp trigger of an LCP II. For me Kahr only has a very slight edge in the 380 market, which is already niche compared to 9. With other micro-9s offered at ~$500 with night sights, higher capacity, and sometimes optics-ready slides, Kahr really needs to step up their game. Of course, I believe we are all in this discussion with good intentions, instead of just bashing Kahr.

[JohnR]

I like my J frame because the trigger is even better and safer than a Kahr, and it’s reliability gives me total confidence, and 5 is enough for the places I carry it.

[Armybrat]

I like my 7+1 CT380 and CW9 pistols and will keep them no matter what Kahr does or doesn’t do, but I also would prefer to carry a 10+1 “double stack” CW9.

Plus I would like to see Kahr attract more buyers with the latter instead of remaining stagnant in a competitive market.

Love my Airweight J-Frame, but haven’t carried it in 15 years.

[MMyers1970]

I like my 7+1 CT380 and CW9 pistols and will keep them no matter what Kahr does or doesn’t do, but I also would prefer to carry a 10+1 “double stack” CW9.

Plus I would like to see Kahr attract more buyers with the latter instead of remaining stagnant in a competitive market.

Love my Airweight J-Frame, but haven’t carried it in 15 years.

And your second to last sentence is exactly the point. Those of us who already own Kahr pistols are not the reason Kahr should make a competitive product. The fact they don't have a competitive product steers new buyers away from Kahr. The reason I bought my P9 is because it was a unique product at the time. When I bought my CM9, it was easily the smallest quality polymer 9mm on the market. The CW380 was the only game in town. Now there is competition in those markets, and Kahr is out of the game.

It's really not complicated.

[JohnR]

I’d say you’ve made your point pretty clearly. Several times. :)

[Armybrat]

Well, even if Kahr introduced a double stack it’s not like we could buy one anyway. I’m still waiting to see who has a PM9 Covert for sale after one year.

[Bawanna]

This horse is plumb rode down, I'm gonna take him down to graze and water, I'll just loosen the saddle so yall can keep on ridin.

[jocko]

It’s sad, tge biggest gun dealer in Indiana who sell literally thousands of firearms an has a state of tge art building. HAS ZERO JAGRS in their showcases. When asked, their comment was way to expensive, to many issues, especially tge 380, women sn older people cannot rack the slides! It’s sad but everything they said was true! Kahr zero sales people traveling around tge country contacting dealers etc. I live 14 miles from Terre HauteIndiana. Home of the biggest dealer in the state, and there st 12 small gun shops in this area. NOT A KAHR TO BE SEEN

[SlowBurn]

MMyers1970, I 100% agree with you here. I bought a CW380 instead of an LCP II for Kahr's useful sights, smooth DAO trigger, and aesthetics. But I do know that many folks prefer the crisp trigger of an LCP II. For me Kahr only has a very slight edge in the 380 market, which is already niche compared to 9. With other micro-9s offered at ~$500 with night sights, higher capacity, and sometimes optics-ready slides, Kahr really needs to step up their game. Of course, I believe we are all in this discussion with good intentions, instead of just bashing Kahr.

My impression is that Justin Moon, the driving force and innovator who envisioned and invented the slim, smooth, high quality Kahr carry pistol, has lost interest. What attention he gives to the enterprise seems directed to Magnum Research, not Kahr. He revolutionized concealed carry, and for me the p380 and cw380 even with occasional quality issues, are still the very best of the pocket pistol pack. But its hard to see a future unless someone picks up the torch that Justin has put down.

[jocko]

They seem more in selling magnum research products, than their own line. There 22 semi auto rifles built off off ruger design are Awesone. Seen um in only one place. THE NRA SHOW!🙈I spend 3 months in Naples, Florida every winter. The famous ALAMO GUN RANGE, the biggest gun range in the state, state of the are indoor range . NOT ONE KAHR BRAND OR OTHER KAHR OWNERSHIP IN THE BUILDING. Very sad . When I tell gun snide I shoot a kahr they look at me like WHAT???

[Armybrat]

Holy Moly!
Things really must be bad for Kahr if it brings Jocko out to comment!

For a while there I thought he might have fallen off his bike or maybe run off with one of them there hot pants Hooters gals.
Or sumthin’.

[jocko]

Kahr early I’ve had many functioning issues, dealer got burned over them, they dumped selling selling kahrs. Kahr cleaned up their act , but that was the time to send a Kahr representative to these gun dealers to make amends an show their dealers That we have the best semi autos on the market. THEY IGNORED IT🙈 I love my 3 kahrs, I bought off a NY cop his K9 that ge could no longer carry once NYPD did not approve it for off duty carry. It’s the nicest semi in quality I ever owned.for some reason I even shoot it fairly well. I’ve carried my blunt nose PM9 for over 10 years DAILY. I won’t leave home without it. I will not dress to carry it do it rides perfect in my jeans front pocket in a desantis. I shootny PM9 poorly, very poorly🙈long smooth trigger just screw me up. Not the guns fault, no safety except what’s between ones ears , but good enough at 6 yards to get me back home. I recently bout a Glock 43 an did a lot of custom work on it an installed tge recoil laser Max an this set up is super scary at 10 yards an ur an empty beer can. Is it pocketable like my PM9??? Ask me in a few months!

[Bawanna]

Must be a glitch in the system, I thought I saw a Jocko post or two. If any of you new folks don't have Jocko decoder rings and can't figure out some of the words, feel free to inquire.
Typing or spelling or probably both ain't Jocko's strong suits. Now driving a Harley through an ice cream filled road, he's your man.

[JohnR]

Jocko is risen!!!

[Canine Dave]

Jocko is risen!!!

I, too, worried that he were deceased.

Only more surprised than I were his friends Goofa, Haven, Watson, and Steve666 to name just a few.

[King Rat]

They seem more in selling magnum research products, than their own line. There 22 semi auto rifles built off off ruger design are Awesone. Seen um in only one place. THE NRA SHOW!I spend 3 months in Naples, Florida every winter. The famous ALAMO GUN RANGE, the biggest gun range in the state, state of the are indoor range . NOT ONE KAHR BRAND OR OTHER KAHR OWNERSHIP IN THE BUILDING. Very sad . When I tell gun snide I shoot a kahr they look at me like WHAT???


First of all the largsts LGS's in my area have not carried Kahr ever. But, so what? They do not carry many other guns as well. Rare to even find a Beretta, forget some like a HK or a watch them get that deer with eye caught in a headlight when you mention Grand Power.Plenty of Taurus, SSCY, Rugers and the usual Glocks. I could care less what a LGS offers or for that matter what they have to say about any firearm. They sell what is marketed the most and the most money spent on marketing. By the way, they do not carry a lot of revolvers either. I have gone in the stores many times to hope to see a Kimber K6. Forget it. I would bet that the majority of purchases for firearms come from new inexperienced shooters. Pretty much all I have seen in so many years. And forget DAO. Not a trigger that is part of the internet fad crowd. So many newbies want the lightest trigger possible and the shortest reset. The internet told them this is best. And be sure and find one with a great "Audible" reset. Lol, LGS;s can be a total joke.

[MMyers1970]

Kahr early I’ve had many functioning issues, dealer got burned over them, they dumped selling selling kahrs. Kahr cleaned up their act , but that was the time to send a Kahr representative to these gun dealers to make amends an show their dealers That we have the best semi autos on the market. THEY IGNORED IT I love my 3 kahrs, I bought off a NY cop his K9 that ge could no longer carry once NYPD did not approve it for off duty carry. It’s the nicest semi in quality I ever owned.for some reason I even shoot it fairly well. I’ve carried my blunt nose PM9 for over 10 years DAILY. I won’t leave home without it. I will not dress to carry it do it rides perfect in my jeans front pocket in a desantis. I shootny PM9 poorly, very poorlylong smooth trigger just screw me up. Not the guns fault, no safety except what’s between ones ears , but good enough at 6 yards to get me back home. I recently bout a Glock 43 an did a lot of custom work on it an installed tge recoil laser Max an this set up is super scary at 10 yards an ur an empty beer can. Is it pocketable like my PM9??? Ask me in a few months!

My LGS won't stock new Kahrs at all. He will stock the occasional Magnum Research product, but not Kahr. He told me the rep pressed him as to why and his answer was "They don't sell". They are so difficult to move that when he got an MK9 in from purchasing a collection, he called ME because I'd bought Kahrs(ordered through GoG) from him.

[JohnR]

Our LGSs stopped selling Kahrs too. But Tauruses sell like hotcakes, so it’s not the internet reputation.

[DJK11]

Is that the real JOCKO? That second post had some good spellin. Kine a suspect, just sayin.

[DavidR]

Is that the real JOCKO? That second post had some good spellin. Kine a suspect, just sayin.

I think it’s Bawanna punking us.

[getsome]

Sheep farmer, welcome back...I thought I recognized that earthy farm smell.....

Don’t stay away so long, we need you to help us codgertate things around here....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar-IEE_DIEo

[jocko]

The sheep are doing fine , the sheep owner has slowed down a lot. Had to cut the herd back a lot as therecwas to much inbreeding.caught a bunch of fenales going at it, so I shot them with my K9.they tried to pull this trandgender crap on me, an im to old fir that, soI shot um all!

[jeepster09]

Kahr early I’ve had many functioning issues, dealer got burned over them, they dumped selling selling kahrs. Kahr cleaned up their act , but that was the time to send a Kahr representative to these gun dealers to make amends an show their dealers That we have the best semi autos on the market. THEY IGNORED IT I love my 3 kahrs, I bought off a NY cop his K9 that ge could no longer carry once NYPD did not approve it for off duty carry. It’s the nicest semi in quality I ever owned.for some reason I even shoot it fairly well. I’ve carried my blunt nose PM9 for over 10 years DAILY. I won’t leave home without it. I will not dress to carry it do it rides perfect in my jeans front pocket in a desantis. I shootny PM9 poorly, very poorlylong smooth trigger just screw me up. Not the guns fault, no safety except what’s between ones ears , but good enough at 6 yards to get me back home. I recently bout a Glock 43 an did a lot of custom work on it an installed tge recoil laser Max an this set up is super scary at 10 yards an ur an empty beer can. Is it pocketable like my PM9??? Ask me in a few months!


"I bought off a NY cop his K9 that ge could no longer carry"

He should of just put his K9 down on the ground....he would of been able to keep carrying it. :boink:

[Bawanna]

I actually saw a couple Kimber K6's at the relatively new Coastal Farm and Feed in town. They were pretty durn nice. Pricey as usual, wife even liked them.

I too don't really care what the shops stock, I just have them find what I want or order on line. Not like it used to be now days, transfer fees are gouging like everything else and now in Washington we have to pay sales tax. Course your suppose to pay sales tax on everything but guns are the only thing they can really track, made gun shops tax collectors.

[JohnR]

I read “I bought off a NY cop” and wondered what crime Jocko got away with...

[JohnR]

I don’t begrudge a shop it’s transfer fees, there’s a good bit of time and effort to sending and receiving guns, logging them for Big Brother, and dealing with customers. Mine charges $20, it barely seems enough.

[Bawanna]

Ours used to be 25 for rifle and 30 for pistol, now they nick me 45 for everything. It's some effort but doesn't take long. I also make every effort to buy from the local shop, but if they want to gouge or play games, I'm gone.

[getsome]

I don’t mind a reasonable fee from a LGS for the transfer paper work....Mom & Pop shops profit margin is small for most gun sales and they have lost so much business to the internet.......Any mistake on a 4473 form could cause the ATF to close their doors so the shops need a few bucks for the service and the risk to their business......In both the recent mass shootings the two criminals passed a background check which proves they are useless in preventing crime but it was the gun shop owners who had to deal with ATF and FBI scrutiny because they sold the weapons and had they made any mistakes on the forms they would have to deal with the consequences so I understand the transfer fee and chalk it up to the price of doing business.....

[Canine Dave]

I bought my first Kahr when the P9 first hit the market. At the time, it was groundbreaking. There were no polymer-framed, striker fired, single-stack 9mms on the market. This is years before the Shield and a decade before the G43. Kel-Tec may have had something, but come on.

Now, not only were there plenty of single stack option, multiple makers have followed SIG and developed ultracompact 10 round pistols.

It was bad enough when SIG brought out the P365, but now we also have the Springfield Hellcat, the Shield Plus, and the Ruger Max 9. The last two are going to sell like hotcakes, if history is any indication. It won't be long before Smith gets production ramped up and one can buy a Shield Plus for just over $300. Same for the Ruger Max 9.

And where is Kahr? Nowhere to be seen. If I was a new gun buyer, and I had a choice of a CM9 and a pistol just a tad thicker that carried four more rounds in the mag, it's a no-brainer.

Don't get me wrong. I love my Kahr pistols. I think my steel Kahrs are some of the finest production pistols on the market. The MK9 is a little jewel. But Kahr can't possibly sell very many of them.

Long live KahrTalk!

[getsome]

Kahrtalk is special and so are Kahr pistols....Some think they are outdated because of all the newer guns on the market with higher capacity but I disagree....I was all over the Sig 365 until I pulled the trigger and felt how quick it would release, not for me, it’s not a pocket pistol that I would feel safe carrying......If I could have a Sig 365 with the Kahr trigger then it would work but that ain’t happening.....

Everyone keeps wondering why Kahr doesn’t bring out a high capacity 9mm to compete with the others and the reason is money, Kahr is more of an assembler of pistol parts than an in house manufacturer......Kahr outsources a good bit of their parts to other vendors, They found years back that CNC machining was very expensive so they decided polymer was the future and outsourced frame manufacture to another vendor....MIM parts are less expensive to purchase from another company that specializes in doing that kind of work so they contracted that out........I may be wrong here but I believe Kahr found an outside vendor to manufacture their magazines which have been a weak link in their otherwise fantastic product.....

So in order for Kahr to produce and market a high cap pistol it would require R&D work with their frame vendor as well as their magazine manufacturer which is where the high cap magic happens in order to make a pistol that works and that is very expensive to do and honestly in the present political nonsense we live in why make that kind of investment now.........It would be nice to have a high cap slim Kahr pistol but it’s not going to happen anytime soon if ever so I’ll just hang on to my single stack PM9 and be happy........

[Armybrat]

As I said, my CT380 & CW9 ain’t going anywhere except on my person...

[LabTrek]

Hi, new to forum. Have checked it out from time to time. Found this thread entertaining.
Replying to original topic, or it could be legal agreement with well known firearms manufacturer that helped with an engineering problem way back when with one of the internal components. In return agreed not to make double stack.

[King Rat]

Hi, new to forum. Have checked it out from time to time. Found this thread entertaining.
Replying to original topic, or it could be legal agreement with well known firearms manufacturer that helped with an engineering problem way back when with one of the internal components. In return agreed not to make double stack.

Hello Labtrek, I know you from other forums, always good information. I wonder if you could expand on your comment. Like Army Brat said, my Kahr's two CM9's and Cw380's are not going anywhere but on my person. At 15 29 ounces and the small size will always be my EDC. I do have some other nice EDC guns but none this light as a pistol in 9mm and this size. I personally think that Kahr's do not sell to the General Public is the fact that it has a DAO trigger.
Jonh Q. Public, especially NEW shooters just cannot shoot them, have no inclination to learn or want to invest the time, ammo and money. Look at the LCP, horrible Gen 1 DAO, then Ruger came out with the GEN 2 which was actually a very nice DAO and then defied all by going with the ridiculous trigger they have now with the LCPll. I do not think Kahr is going anywhere. I use to have a Ruger LC9S nice gun, loved the slim design but always wished it was the size and weight of the Kahr. And had the trigger of the Kahr. Finally traded it for a second CM9 and never looked back.Glad to get rid of the Ruger for what I feel as a dangerous trigger even though I loved the gun. I also have three Beretta Nano's that have a wonderful DAO, same small design, even shoots better than the Kahr, the Ruger, the Sig 365 but alas much heavier than the Kahr. I really do not want a double stack small firearm.
So expand on your reply. Would be very interested to hear what you have found or a link etc.

[King Rat]

As I said, my CT380 & CW9 ain’t going anywhere except on my person...


I normally carry the CM9 with 6+1 but have the 7 plus one which still makes this gun one of the lightest and easiest guns to carry. The extened grip is light, and for some act as a finger grip.
https://i.imgur.com/aqvVY8C.jpg?3

[dustnchips]

I think the that Kahr has been buried before it died. There are plenty of other gun companies making single stack CC guns. There will always be a demand from those like me that want a small light gun. By the way, I saw an ad for a SCCY double stack 380 that holds 10+1. I'm still not interested due to size. The FBI says that 99.? percent of gun fights happen within 10 feet and 3. some rounds are fired. I'll take my chances with 7 rounds. If I carried professionally or frequented known dangerous places I would probably have a different outlook. Bigger gun and more bullets.

[King Rat]

One thing for certain, If a newbie comes to this forum, they sure will not buy a Kahr. More bashers here than any forum I have seen. A few are relentless, the same people bashing the manufacturer over and over. What a shame, because Kahr is such a great EDC firearm. And all over a few extra rounds that many do not care about anyway. And then you have the same guy that constantly wants to start a damn caliber war. Maybe a forum will come out for folks that truly love the guns. This place is not the place it use to be. For those that want a double stack 9mm, go buy one for God sake, do us all a favor and go someone else to bash Kahr. We got your message loud and clear!

[yqtszhj]

Every time I see a picture of a cm9 it reminds me how nice it is. Mine doesn’t get carried too much any more but maybe I need to get it out.

[Bawanna]

You'll find things around here go in phases, circle of the forum perhaps. Right now we're in the bashing phase which I find meaningless and mostly not factual. Predictions and business plans with zero first hand information.
What we consider the positive side of this forum unlike many others is we allow the conversation and don't just ban bashers or shut down threads although I really want to. The other Admin and Mods have a lot more patience than myself.

I chuckle at how many years folks begged for Glock to come out with a single stack, which of course they finally did.

I do agree if one insist on a double stack 9, there are plenty to choose from. Just go get one. Doesn't do a lick of good to chastise or bash Kahr for sticking to what they are good at.

As for caliber wars, those are generally entertaining to me. And I'm probably guilty of instigating from time to time. If one's comfy packing a 380 that's all that matters. Wish everyone carried one, less chance of me getting hurt....*(damn there I go again).

[Armybrat]

I am not bashing Kahr, just stating what I would like to see them make. And it certainly wouldn’t hurt the brand if they did introduce a doublestack, 1.5 stack, whatever you want to call it, 9mm compact - micro compact for CC.

Some folks act like innovation and producing such a pistol would actually ruin the brand.

This reminds me of the days almost 60 years ago when I was driving my 1960 MGA roadster with bolt-on side curtain sliding windows, and wished British Leyland would build them with more modern roll-up windows.
About 30 years later I was thrilled to buy a used 1974 MGB that actually had the roll-up crank windows! Kept it until selling it to a collector from Dallas in 2000.

[DavidR]

I do agree completely that if you absolutely want the smallest, lightest, shootable (and I stress shootable) 9mm, the CM9 can’t be beat. If you’re okay going up a little bit in size and weight there is a lot of competition for the CW9.

[DavidR]

Super sweet MG!

[gb6491]

I don’t think the market shifted, it expanded. S&W and Ruger still sell a lot of 5 shot revolvers. They sell small 10+ round 9mm semis too, so they cover the bases.

Look at Rock Island Armory , almost all they do is 1911s. No micro PocketMax 360Cats there. They also don’t have a forum for customers to complain, either.
Probably not a pocket rocket, but they do have a 380...https://www.armscor.com/firearms/bbr-series/baby-rock-380/
You'll see some complaints here: https://www.1911forum.com/forums/rock-island-armory.64/

Talking 1911s, brings .4ACP to mind...I believe Kahr's 45ACP guns are very completive in their market niche (especially against other poly frame guns of the same ilk). It's sad that they seem to be the red headed-step child in the scheme of things at Kahr. Come on man:lie:, at least give them flat metal baseplates.

Regards,
Greg

[berettabone]

One thing for certain, If a newbie comes to this forum, they sure will not buy a Kahr. More bashers here than any forum I have seen. A few are relentless, the same people bashing the manufacturer over and over. What a shame, because Kahr is such a great EDC firearm. And all over a few extra rounds that many do not care about anyway. And then you have the same guy that constantly wants to start a damn caliber war. Maybe a forum will come out for folks that truly love the guns. This place is not the place it use to be. For those that want a double stack 9mm, go buy one for God sake, do us all a favor and go someone else to bash Kahr. We got your message loud and clear! One thing for certain, if a newbie comes to this forum, they sure will not buy a Pico or Apx. I've heard more about them from one person than I can stand. They are relentless, the same person telling us how great the Pico and Apx are over and over. What a shame because Kahr's are nice firearms. And all over a few underpowered .380 rds. Maybe a forum will come out for folks that truly drool over the Pico. For those that want an underpowered firearm, go buy one for god sake., do us all a favor and go somewhere else to espouse the plastic Pico. We got your message loud and clear. We listen to your S#!t over and over again. The least you can do is listen to ours without the whine and crackers.

[wyntrout]

Yes, flat METAL bases would be nice! I've bought all kinds of followers and bases and ruined at least a few Kahr ones trying to make them flatter, or fit the Kahr .45 mags.

I hate the regular capacity Kahr .45 bases... too thick or bulky, and waste a possible 1-round larger capacity.

[JohnR]

https://i.imgflip.com/53nmdi.jpg

[FreeMe]

I'm pretty sure that Kahr has been selling all the pistols they can produce. And that was the case over a year ago too. I'm also pretty sure that if they started to get stuck with P9's that won't move, they have enough profit margin to reduce the price to where they will sell.

But I have to say that I would love to see the P9 with a slightly thicker grip and staggered mag like the Shield. I still prefer to shoot the K9 rather than the P9, and it's not because of the weight. It's the grip. If you compare the grip of the Shield with that of the K9, they're about the same thickness - no, actually the K9 grip is a ltitle thicker....and to me, it is perfect. Seems to me that there should be no reason that the P9 grip couldn't be the same, and add another round or two. I don't care much about the extra rounds, but a P9 with a slightly more hand-filling grip without losing the low bore axis, stellar accuracy, and excellent trigger would make me buy another Kahr or two. But until then....I'm good.

Speaking of those last three points....Kahr still has the others beat. I've looked hard at these newer offerings, but I ain't buyin' them either - more rounds be damned.

[MahrLalk]

One thing for certain, if a newbie comes to this forum, they sure will not buy a Pico or Apx. I've heard more about them from one person than I can stand. They are relentless, the same person telling us how great the Pico and Apx are over and over. What a shame because Kahr's are nice firearms. And all over a few underpowered .380 rds. Maybe a forum will come out for folks that truly drool over the Pico. For those that want an underpowered firearm, go buy one for god sake., do us all a favor and go somewhere else to espouse the plastic Pico. We got your message loud and clear. We listen to your S#!t over and over again. The least you can do is listen to ours without the whine and crackers.


https://i.imgflip.com/53nmdi.jpg

Had a good chuckle. Appreciate y'all, berettabone, JohnR, and King Rat.

[JohnR]

Heh.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/firearms-knives-other-brands/646825-opinion-khar-pistols.html

[Bawanna]

I see the usual pay over 500 shouldn't require a break in period. I chuckle. Every gun needs a break in. Kahr is one of the few that's actually up front about it. Oh well. Most shooters need a break in too, some more than others.

[JohnR]

Break-in is fun, who wouldn’t want an excuse to shoot lots of ammo through a new gun?

[rx7sig]

But I have to say that I would love to see the P9 with a slightly thicker grip and staggered mag like the Shield. I still prefer to shoot the K9 rather than the P9, and it's not because of the weight. It's the grip. If you compare the grip of the Shield with that of the K9, they're about the same thickness - no, actually the K9 grip is a ltitle thicker....and to me, it is perfect. Seems to me that there should be no reason that the P9 grip couldn't be the same, and add another round or two. I don't care much about the extra rounds, but a P9 with a slightly more hand-filling grip without losing the low bore axis, stellar accuracy, and excellent trigger would make me buy another Kahr or two. But until then....I'm good.

The Kahr-branded Hogue wood grips on the K9 are a bit thicker, still, than the K9 OEM rubber grips, and they (the wood grips) make the K9 perfect for me for CC-ing and shooting.

rx7sig

[Bawanna]

You must have large hands. I've slimmed down a bunch of the Hogue grips for folks. They do feel nice and people with big hands probably really do benefit from them.

[rx7sig]

You must have large hands.

Hmmm. I've never thought of them as being especially large. However, my (double-stack) Sig Sauer M11-A1 does fit my hands much more comfortably with Hogue cocobolo (wood) grips (vs. the thinner OEM plastic grips it shipped wearing). And I easily play an octave + 2 on a full-sized piano. So, maybe so.

rx7sig

[JohnR]

Rumor is that Ruger is coming out with a double stack LCP II in .380.

https://ruger-docs.s3.amazonaws.com/_manuals/LCP-MAX-8Gr2xcp6V3s.pdf

[King Rat]

Rumor is that Ruger is coming out with a double stack LCP II in .380.

https://ruger-docs.s3.amazonaws.com/_manuals/LCP-MAX-8Gr2xcp6V3s.pdf



Betting it is just a max9 in 380. Just like they did with the LC9 to LC380. Either way, no interest for me.

[Bawanna]

Zero interest to me either. Guess if a fella carries a 380 having a lot of them might be a good thing.

[JohnR]

https://i.imgflip.com/5en1v1.jpg

[King Rat]

Lol, I love it when someone under estimates the 380. Regardless, it is not about the cartridge of the 380, it is about the gun. Just not interested in a LCP. Especially for a larger gun like the 9mm micro. The whole idea of a pocket gun for myself is the conceal-ability and easy every day carry. If the new LCP max is the size of the Max 9 would not make sense unless you have a physical disability etc. Then just as easy to carry a Kahr Cm9. If the LCP max is a double stack, forget it, for one the grip would be too big, the gun too heavy etc. Would not make sense. And a fatter grip would not make sense.

A small Pocket gun is a great defensive weapon in 380. You can under estimate it all you want, just do not get shot by one. The laugh and the big talk will go down along with your life.
he record straight.. Continue reading at: https://gunbelts.com/blog/myths-about-380-acp-busted/


Time and time again, It has been Proven that Accuracy matters more than caliber. But apparently you Just cannot tell some people that.


https://gunbelts.com/blog/myths-about-380-acp-busted/

https://i.imgur.com/7nAkEun.jpg?1

[JohnR]

And the DoD will be adopting .380, when exactly?

[BirdsThaWord]

An argument that will last for eons.

[DavidR]

The manual that was linked to shows a gun the size of an LCP, not the Max9.

[Canine Dave]

And the DoD will be adopting .380, when exactly?

With the right bullet selection, Jonh Browning's 380acp has a decent AIT (re. Goats at Strasbourg).

[King Rat]

The manual that was linked to shows a gun the size of an LCP, not the Max9.

Hard to tell at this point. It will be interesting to see the specs.
https://i.imgur.com/xgwt56Y.jpg https://i.imgur.com/FOucj9p.jpg

[Bawanna]

I thought I was doing well trying a couple 9's, tupperware pistols and even got one rifle with a plastic stock (actually 2).
No 380's for me. If it works for you, fine and dandy.

[King Rat]

Just a suggestion. How about a separate forum topic on the Kahr 380's for those that do love this fine pocket pistol. A place where folks can go and not be constantly attacked and usually by the same Kahr posters. This is a fine pistol and just the mention one can result in a bashing of the gun .For example, there is one long time member here that will incessantly go out of way to bash the gun even though he has never owned one. He does not like any 380, so any poster that brings it up will usually get his wrath. New members and others logging on to the Kahr forum will read his post and get a very unworthy, unjust view of the gun. I now, even hesitate to post about the 380, on this forum because I know what will happen.
It would also be nice to be about to talk about other Pocket guns as well. This gun is too nice to be trashed constantly by the same posters. If a poster prefers a different caliber like the 9mm,40,45 etc that can simply follow that forum topic and as usual, you will not see anyone start to bash that caliber.
Thank you for your consideration on this issue.

[jeepster09]

Yes.....their could be a TOY GUN forum topic section :boink:

[Bawanna]

We take a live and let live approach on this forum. Everybody is different and what it takes to acquire a weapon they have confidence in is also different. I've seen no evidence of bashing on any Kahr product or the 380. I would find it difficult to sit back and watch a lot of Kahr bashing of any kind, especially on this forum but we tolerate it quite a bit.

Personally I have no use for one, and I've stated that many times, kind of the same with 9mm far as that goes but I certainly don't bash them.

We all have our own opinions on all things, you'll never see me in an electric car for example. Don't mean some don't like them and think (wrong in my opinion) that they are the answer to saving the planet.

Another personal thing with me is pocket carry, will never happen with me, just don't work for me. Everybody here already knows these things so I don't know why I repeat myself but feel free to clarify yourself in more detail. Name names if it helps.

At any rate feel free to PM me with your frustrations. I think there is a 380 area, I'll have to check. Been awfully quiet as usual around here this time of year so I suspect that area would be rather quiet and lonely.

[Canine Dave]

With the right bullet selection, Jonh Browning's 380acp has a decent AIT (re. Goats at Strasbourg). Check it out.

[JohnR]

I got nothing against .380, I don’t even feel too bad about .22WMR. The so-called experts say .380 is fine for SD so who am I to argue. I just don’t like paying more for less energy.

[King Rat]

This whole complete series is Great Info.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/wrong-about-pocket-pistols/

[yqtszhj]

Bigger caliber is good but wonder what Archduke Franz Ferdinand thought about John Moses Browning FN Model 1910 in .380?

Just stirring the pot....

[JohnR]

He probably thought, “Wow, that 4” barrel sure helps with velo- gaaaaak!”

[getsome]

Is the .380 the be all and end all in a self defense carry handguns, no way but any gun is better than no gun…..I only carry my little Beretta .380 for funerals and weddings when I am forced to wear a suit and tie and can’t carry anything larger……..Yes it’s a small “mouse gun” but I have to wonder if a bad guy shot properly would notice whether he was hit with a 110 grain Hornady Critical Defense .38 special round at 1010 fps or a 90 grain .380 Hornady Critical Defense going 950 fps, I doubt it…….We all have carried .38 Special revolvers and have no problem feeling well protected so what is the real difference.…….Would I consider a .380 pistol the best choice for SD, well no but it’s much better than nothing……

[Canine Dave]

Bigger caliber is good but wonder what Archduke Franz Ferdinand thought about John Moses Browning FN Model 1910 in .380?

Just stirring the pot....

Don't confuse offensive Vs defensive capabilities is small calibre handgun cartridges.


Think Sirhan Sirhan, Jack Ruby, Mark Chapman, and mostly, Leon Czolgsz. We're strictly talking self defense here.

[King Rat]

Don't confuse offensive Vs defensive capabilities is small calibre handgun cartridges.


Think Sirhan Sirhan, Jack Ruby, Mark Chapman, and mostly, Leon Czolgsz. We're strictly talking self defense here.


Agree and that is why I go with the Pocket gun on most occasions. And since I believe most assualt encounters will be close range, The Pocket gun is actually faster and for me much easier to draw and shoot.
And just to rattle the case of the big bore, or high cap guns. Here is what I am carrying now.
https://i.imgur.com/trUNKXs.png


The Keltec P32 at 6 1/2 ounces and only 10 oz. loaded makes for a fast biting Viper.
https://i.imgur.com/Zf6QDKI.jpg?2

[Bawanna]

Those are interesting looking bullets, see pictures of them before but never in person.
I'm wearing this today but it's supposed to get over a 100 so I'll probably go to my 365 or PM45. Not going anywhere anyhow but I never go nekkid.
https://i.postimg.cc/BQSGwQY3/DSCN8048.jpg (https://postimg.cc/t7MfsyGv)

[King Rat]

Those are interesting looking bullets, see pictures of them before but never in person.
I'm wearing this today but it's supposed to get over a 100 so I'll probably go to my 365 or PM45. Not going anywhere anyhow but I never go nekkid.
https://i.postimg.cc/BQSGwQY3/DSCN8048.jpg (https://postimg.cc/t7MfsyGv)

Beautiful gun. Have been meaning to get one for years, love the grips.

[Bawanna]

They are just a tad thick for me, I like thin grips. Greg here on the forum helped me find some I could afford, hate paying tons but I do love stag and wood grips. Probably one major reason I balk at tupperware guns. Often figured if I could figure out how to put wood grips on a glock without making them thicker than they already are I'd have to hire people to count my money..........
Never ever in my life did I figure I'd ever own a Wilson but a sgt at work got it for a wedding gift and never used it, didn't love guns like I do and he gave me a really good deal. Check that off the bucket list.

[yqtszhj]

Those are interesting looking bullets, see pictures of them before but never in person.
I'm wearing this today but it's supposed to get over a 100 so I'll probably go to my 365 or PM45. Not going anywhere anyhow but I never go nekkid.
https://i.postimg.cc/BQSGwQY3/DSCN8048.jpg (https://postimg.cc/t7MfsyGv)

That is a beauty right there.

[King Rat]

As I mentioned, I wish I had not put off getting a 45cal 1911. In the mean time with the ammo shortage I will have to continue just shooting my Air Pistol 1911. Actually a lot of fun. Love the way the grip feels.

https://i.imgur.com/S47TB6v.jpg?1

[Bawanna]

I've been shooting my air rifle quite a bit too. Don't have to leave the house, it's cheap and still lots of fun.
I need to dig out my air pistols, I know they are around here someplace. Wish I had one that looked like that.

[getsome]

Beautiful Wilson boss, love those grips, just perfection….…I need to get my air rifle out and play with it again…..A couple years ago before we moved I was in a MAJOR squirrel war because of all the trees around our old house…..The damn little tree rats were eating my house and every fall morning at sunrise I would hear, crunch crunch crunch on the wall outside my bedroom so I would grab my old Crosman 760 and try to get a shot but always missed and I swear the little bastards would laugh at me and keep chewing away…..

I decided it was time for a weapon upgrade so I went to Walmart and bought a Gamo .177 pellet rifle with a scope for about a buck fifty and it was a game changer, squirrels were dropping left and right….I don’t have anything against squirrels in general until they start eating my house and running around my attic all night…..If you ever have squirrel problems look into a Squirrelinator trap off Amazon, peanut butter bait works great and I caught a bunch of um and hauled them off…….I could have taken them to the park but I enjoyed letting them out on the side of the interstate…….

[mr surveyor]

getsome, that squirrel story reminds me of my late Dad trying to control the squirrels in his back yard (edge of city limits) that were shredding his pecans and tearing up his plums. He started trapping them and taking them about a half mile from his house down the county road. A week later, the same squirrels would be back in his yard again. He caught and hauled off one of them enough that he named it.

I offered to take them with a pellet gun, but I think he had more entertainment with trapping, relocating, trapping again .....


jd

[hardluk1]

Only kahr I still own is a ct45 now . Hand surgery's cost me enough grip strength that snappy thin and light 9mm and 40sw no longer matter I gave to family . Also after several e mails covering why kahr should build a double stack I find no reason to ever buy anything kahr again . I still have a ct45 I bought when between 1911's that I finally pulled out of the safe a few months ago and have some range time with it again but my lw commander sure feels nicer shooting and covers my carry needs again ..

I bought a s&w 669 back in '88 but never carried it much . Nice pistol but !!! What I did find years ago and attempted several times to get kahr to pay attention too was the s&w 669 alloy frame was just under 1" wide with a 12 round double stack mag . Not interested was what I was told , several times . Maybe the wis-dum at kahr was thinking it would be looked at like a KT p-11 as those pistol could use the s&w 59 design mags as back up . What ever it was kahr missed the boat with the light 12or 13 shot double stack pistols out there today .

7.5 years after surgery still not lite carry handguns for me but I'm retired so I can carry as small as the s&w 669 or m&p9c we have but I favor a 04840wc lw commander in 45 or a m&p 4.25 40sw with thumb safety and a 3.5ln apex trigger kit added some years back


I even mentioned that the 45acp pistols could be changed to a run with 38 super that so many old school 1911 guys loved and use 1911 mags instead of kahrs . That could have been an affordable option for the 4" model .

I had to make a 3/8 wide 3/16" high notch in the bottom front of the ct45 grip so I could use my 1911 mags and have a clean flat bottom with one extra round ! Poor ole kahr missed the boat for a small light double stacks poly pistol buy about 10 years and counting .

Is kahr done . Maybe , but they bought other brands that might keep the office functioning for a while but there dead to me . Kahrs various Gen 2 pistols made me wonder what happened to there common sense .

It is interesting to see how little chit chat is going on lately .

[Bawanna]

I haven't had hand surgery but I do agree I don't like the snappy thin 9's apparently. I got a Sig 365 to try and while I like it more in person then I did in pictures, it's not fun for me to shoot. Lot of bark for a little 9.
Other than that I don't really agree with rest. With all the brands under the Kahr umbrella they have to be doing something right.
I'm a pretty devout 1911 guy and I will no doubt stick with them. The Magnum Research 1911's are keepers, I have 3. Very accurate and well put together.
I entertained the idea of getting a 1911 9mm and will still look but not terribly hard.
I bought another compact 9 yesterday to try out but I'll save that until I get it and have a chance to shoot it some before I let the cat out of the sack.
I did see a little ammo on the shelves at the shop, they don't mark the price so not sure how much gold one needs to buy it but at least it was there.

[King Rat]

I have had the opportunity to shoot many micro 9mm's. First of all, I see no where at all that Kahr is done. On the contrary. But I have said this many times. However, if choosing a Micro 9mm for hand surgery etc. There may be others to try. I recently tested the FN 503, nice shooting gun and mild shooting. There are others. They may be a little heavier but some are actually quite mild to shoot. The Sig 365 when we tested it, felt very close to the Ruger LC9S which was a gun that I enjoyed but a Snappy sucker. The p365 the same.
Regardless here is a recoil rating of different firearms you can start out with. If you have hand surgery, it would not make sense to go for a Double stack magazine. I prefer single stack for many reason of which I have previosly stated. And they are easy to reload. Recoil can be subjective so you need to try out each gun. I find the Kahr very easy to shoot and I think it is due to the heavy recoil spring. I own a Beretta Nano and for me, it is one of the mildest I have shot. And I like the grip. But I do carry the Kahr more for the light weight and again, I can shoot it well.
Another gun I tested was the Mossberg MC1 another light shooting gun IMO. You be the judge.

RECOIL FACTOR
Keltec PF-9------------9.79 ft-lb 12.7 oz
Diamondback-DB9---9.28 ft-lb 13.4 oz
SSCY 8.29 ft-lb 15 oz.
Kimber Micro9--------8.02 ft-lb 15.6 oz
Kahr CM9---------------7.7 ft-lb 15.8 oz
--------------------------------------------------

Ruger LC9S------------7.24 ft-lb 17.2 oz

Sig 365------------------6.99 ft-lb 17.8 oz
Sig 938--------------------6.99 ft-lb 17.5 oz
Glock 43X------------------6.93 ft-lb 18.7 oz
MP Shield-----------------6.8 ft-lb 19 oz
Springfield Hellcat------6.78 ft-lb 18.3 oz
Tauraus GX4 6.68 ft-lb 18.5oz
Beretta APX Carry/Nano- 6.18 ft-lb 19.8 oz
Ruger Max 9-----------------6.18 ft-lb 20.4 oz
Smith and Wesson Shield plus 6.04 ft-lb 20.6 oz
Glock 26-------------------5.98 ft-lb 21.7 oz
FN503------------------------5.92 ft-lb 21 oz
Mossberg MC1------------5.89 ft-lb 22.oz
Honor Defense-----------5.79 ft-lb 22 oz

[Bawanna]

I've had my eye out for a Mossberg to look at in person. I have a bunch of old Mossberg rifles and wanted to check it out. The low recoil number makes it even more interesting.

Funny how in my younger days I loved recoil, big boom, big hard kicking rifles etc, now days not nearly so much.
Haven't lit off my 29 or my Ruger 44's for many many moons.

[King Rat]

I've had my eye out for a Mossberg to look at in person. I have a bunch of old Mossberg rifles and wanted to check it out. The low recoil number makes it even more interesting.

Funny how in my younger days I loved recoil, big boom, big hard kicking rifles etc, now days not nearly so much.
Haven't lit off my 29 or my Ruger 44's for many many moons.


The Mossberg was a anomaly. It did not feel as heavy as the ounces indicate. Which leads me to believe it is well balanced which when shooting was very accurate for me. It also had the squared trigger. I really liked the very easy way to clean the striker channel. Just a really simple process that you can do as often as you like without breaking down the pistol.

Here you can see that it is about the same size as the P9. That said, I like the straighter grips of the P9. Some like the grip that brings in the hand closer.

https://i.imgur.com/DEiZYnq.jpg?1

https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/mossberg-mc1sc-vs-kahr-p9

[Bawanna]

The grip is considerable shorter and probably a 2 finger affair. I have relatively small hands so it might not be a big deal. Love to see one in person, from the photo, I'm not sure I'm in love with the trigger but again in hand it might be quite nice.

[King Rat]

The grip is considerable shorter and probably a 2 finger affair. I have relatively small hands so it might not be a big deal. Love to see one in person, from the photo, I'm not sure I'm in love with the trigger but again in hand it might be quite nice.


Here is the Mossberg MC2 as far as Trigger? Lol, you have to go along way to beat the Kahr.

https://i.imgur.com/4JFNujF.jpg?1

[Bawanna]

Didn't know there was more than one. I like the MC2 better at least in the pictures.

In your shooting did you ever play with one of the Canik Elites?

[O'Dell]

I'm sticking with what I said in post #15. No, I do not think Kahr is done.

[JohnR]

Ruger has released the LCP II Max, double stack .380.

Waiting for Kahr to compete is like waiting for Q’s predictions to come true.

[hardluk1]

JohnR Thats a good one ! Ha You might be long dead worm food before kahr does some really new or double stacked ! Ruger stands behind the firearms like very few other companies with no writen warranty , they just fix a problem . Unlike kahrs 5 year plan they changes to some years ago .


Our general store / gun shop sold 8000 firearm this last year and only couple of kahrs and those were ordered by only a couple people . I have a buddy that might want my CT45 . If he buys it I'm going to buy a new BUL SAS TAC commander to round out my 1911 's . Our dealer has a new on for $759

[JohnR]

That’s an average of 22 a day, every day!

[King Rat]

Didn't know there was more than one. I like the MC2 better at least in the pictures.

In your shooting did you ever play with one of the Canik Elites?


Yes, I did shoot the Canik Elite SC. A friend of mine at the club shoots a lot of Bowling Pin matches and he has been shooting it for a while. Nice gun, The grip was a little wider than I like. It shot very well and quality above the cost. I remember when shooting it, that it reminded me very much of my Ruger SR9C. I have yet to see the elite Combat but bet that is a very interesting gun.

PS Went to the indoor range today. Rather than go into my stash I went into my junk bucket. A bucket I keep for all kinds of ammo left over from range shooting, rounds I find in my Pocket, on my floor, drawers and God knows where else. I took 100 rds and shot the Cm9. Dang, it ran everything perfectly. And absence must make the heart grow fonder as he seemed to shoot even more smooth. Lol, I am had a few defense Plus P rounds mixed in and could tell the difference when One was shot unexpectedly. I think I might start doing that more often. Mixing up a defense ammo in the mags.

I also took the CW380 with a box of Wolf steel case. The little mild shooting gun did not miss a beat. And I tore out the middle of a target at 10 yds with ease. Just a terrific little shooter. Even with not shooting very often, I feel lucky that I can be back into the groove quickly.

[Bawanna]

I'm waiting for the county approval to pick up my Canik Elite. I agree the grip is a bit wider than I prefer. I got the one with the Shield Red Dot on it. It's just slightly heavier than the 365. I'm not a Red Dot advocate but I wanted to try one. Unlike the Glocks and others I've tried when brought up to target the dot was always right there for me on the Canik. The others I always had to tilt up or down to find the dot.
This one the iron sight are intact and easily seen through the Red Dot sight so can go either way. I have a full size Canik TP9SFX without the dot and while large it's a wonderful shooter, very accurate and soft shooting. I'm hoping the Elite will be a bit gentler too.

[King Rat]

Congrats! I think you will love it. It will shoot like a 22.cal.

As I said, it reminded me of my SR9C which is a good thing, because I love that gun. I use to post often that I did not shoot it much. Reason, was that it was just TOO EASY to shoot and I did not feel like spending money on ammo for a gun that shot like a 22.cal. One which I could do well with on any day. I use to do a lot of 25 yds shooting and this gun would perform. So, I have no doubt that the Canik will do as good if not better. Should be a great gun and a big bonus for the cost of them. I always felt like the Ruger was like having a full duty gun but in a Compact gun.

http://i.imgur.com/osTWaw1.jpg?1 (https://imgur.com/osTWaw1)

[JohnR]

Don’t worry about Kahr’s lack of new products. Colt quit innovating too, and they’re doing just fine. Right? :D

[King Rat]

Don’t worry about Kahr’s lack of new products. Colt quit innovating too, and they’re doing just fine. Right? :D

John, you are trying to convince the wrong folks. You really need to take this to another forum. Find one that your are a fan of for common mutual interest. Or one in general that you can bash other products. This from is basically a forum for folks that are fans of the product.

[berettabone]

Your the main reason why so many have left the site or quit posting altogether. FOS a Hole.

[hardluk1]

John Well there not open on sunday so that average might be higher but it did surprice me but they tend to display 1400 firearms with as many in storage ! It's rare to walk in this store and not see a person or three in line getting there paper work processed . This is a general store in a rather rural county in western NC and NO on line sales .

OH thee is a difference in a solid colt 1911with a long history and a kahr but with 8 handgun brands in the safe not like I have a favorite I can carry concealed . One of my 1911's or a m&p will do .

Prices Creek General Store

[DavidR]

And the Colonel will be along in 3, 2, 1 …

[jeepster09]

Ahh I like chicken!

[King Rat]

Your the main reason why so many have left the site or quit posting altogether. FOS a Hole.


Lol, the main basher of the Kahr firearms forum comes through again. And I thought you were long gone. (Obviously wishful thinking) A hole. Funny, I am a fan boy of Kahr. I will continue to speak highly on the Kahr's even though I know you will fire back with typical bashing. You can join Gwen Berry in just leaving the US.

[Bawanna]

Wow I sleep in for one day to make up for a couple nights of no sleep due to being damn hot and this is what I get.

Everybody take a chill pill, group hug, or whatever it takes.

Opinions are like the above mentioned (A hole), everybody has one. We can share them politely and diplomatically or often times best to just keep them too ourselves hidden in our skivvies where all (A holes) belong I guess.

In short be nice, dig?

We now return you to our regularly scheduled programs.

And Jeepster I much prefer regular recipe over the extra crispy, course that's just my own personal preference.

Carry on. I know it might come as a shocker but I'm not shutting this one down. Some good comparison charts and a little bit of fisticuffs never hurt nobody, at least that's what momma always said.

[King Rat]

The extra Crispy is just left over crispy and dipped in batter again the next day and re-fried. If you choose to eat it, have a friend that knows CPR with you.

[JohnR]

I thought I was the a-hole. Damn, I'm wrong again. Or not trying hard enough. I promise I'll work harder at it.

[skiflydive]

[QUOTE=King Rat;424541]Lol, the main basher of the Kahr firearms forum comes through again. And I thought you were long gone. /QUOTE]

x1000 on this.

[JohnR]

John, you are trying to convince the wrong folks. You really need to take this to another forum. Find one that your are a fan of for common mutual interest. Or one in general that you can bash other products. This from is basically a forum for folks that are fans of the product.

I'm a fan of Kahr and Colt both, I'm just wishing Kahr would produce the new designs that a LOT of people on this forum would love to have. Double stack 9s, a K45, I'm not the only one who would love to have those, and lots of people here have pined for those before you came along to bash us for bashing. If you want to complain about people, complain about those who whine about Kahr's quality and having to send their guns back multiple times. I've never done that. That's what turns people away from Kahr, obsessive bashing of quality issues, not lack of new products. I didn't even start this thread.

There, is that a holey enough? I may need further lessons. :001_huh:

[Bawanna]

Call me sensitive but when things get personal it's game over. Closing this one.

Start over, be nice or be gone.