Reality check with Reliability

[ndcarry]

Hello all, first post here.

I have two Kahrs, PM9 and P380. I have 400 or so rounds through each, and carry them quite a bit.

I had what I'm now finding as an "average" number of failures in the break in period on both guns, then they shot great.

However, I still have "blips" in the reliability - last weekend, a fail to extract in each (case crumpled) and a few FTF's in my carry ammo (Critical Defense in the 380, Cor Bon DPX in the PM9). That's after 40 rounds in the Cor Bon that were perfect (at $2 a shot!).

Also, I had slide lock issues in the PM9 with my 6 round mag - I'd only had that before with the 8 round mag, and I found that I could move the slide stop a bit if I grabbed that mag wrong (as per Kahr's thought) but it had never happened before.

So, reality wise - what should one expect here for reliability? And then its a personal choice if that's acceptable for a CC gun or not. Neither of these are range guns for me, I shoot them ok, my hands are pretty large.

I'm considering sending both to Kahr later this week as my store suggests. The last time I had an issue with an auto (2 years ago, and a Wilson, yes, a Wilson that was eventually replaced) I ended up carrying a Smith J-Frame for a year before heading down the Kahr route.

Thoughts? Should BANG 499 out of 500 shots be expected? And then am I willing to take a 1 in 500 chance when in a situation of self defense that's what, a 1 in 20,000? (I don't know the numbers).

Like many, I expected less "confidence killing episodes" by stepping up to the Kahrs.

Thanks,

John

[Bawanna]

Aww man, you had to send a Wilson back? And then replaced it. Thats upsetting to me who's life long goal is to own at least one Wilson before I cross the river. BUT if it don't run, what do you do.

You've pretty much indicated your own answer here. But as usual I'll share my 2 cent's worth to be used as you feel appropriate.
Too me a carry gun has to be 100 %. Anything less is not acceptable and it needs attention. I carry my PM45 as primarily a backup which I allow very slightly lower standards. I think it runs, I have confidence in it but it did have a few minor glitches. Until I get a couple hundred more zero issue rounds down range it will stay in backup position.
I have faith in Kahrs but some do require a little fine tuning to get that perfect reliablility. I'm willing to tweak and tune and deal with Kahr if that's what it takes to get it 100%. It's just such a nice small but serious carry package that I feel it's worth the effort to make it work. I suspect that since your confidence level is in question here a trip back to Kahr for a once over is probably the right thing to do.
Be specific about what is going on so the techs there are very clear on what the issues are. Kahr will make it right if given the chance.
Welcome to the forum, hope everything works out just perfect and we hear nothing but good reports.

[ndcarry]

Thanks Bawanna -

On the Wilson - it was a Sentinel (3.6" barrel) and i replaced it with a full size that works great. Wilson did their best to try and fix it (it went back twice, they replicated the problem) and in the end took care of me.

So, your PM45 is your backup, what's your primary?

What are the chances Kahr will magically fix them and they'll come back running just great?

[Bawanna]

I carry a full size Para LDA Limited with the PM 45 on my ankle. They both accept Wilson mags. I guess you could say I own part of a Wilson, actually I have a bunch of Wilson mags.

I'd say given patience there's 100% chance that Kahr will get your gun running. That being said you have to prove it to yourself when it gets back by shooting it ALOT. If it isn't right, we start over again till it gets right.
It can be frustrating and trying and we'd like to never see it happen but sometimes it's hard to get 100%. These are tiny little packages with tolerances that are pushing the small envelope.
Most work fine from the get go, some need a little tweaking. I believe things are improving overall but I got no hard facts to back that statement.
You've proved it yourself, even a Wilson can be bad. Now that's sad.

[Lobo_79]

...Should BANG 499 out of 500 shots be expected...

There's certainly a lot of discussion about handgun reliability and our expectations of it. Regrettably there is always a reliability price to pay for mechanical things with moving parts. I own a PM9 that has been a solid performer after some tuning. In my opinion the short action semi-autos - regardless of the OEM - have a shorter "useful life" before they need retuning. And in this case by useful life I'm referring to that period following following a nominal break in until the time you start experiencing failures related to fatigued springs. During this window it is reasonable to expect 100% reliability. The problem is, of coarse, it is a bet.

[deadhead1971]

Most of my guns are not 100%. Is there such a thing with a mechanical device? My Ruger Vaquero has been 100% but I have not shot it that much (less than 300 rounds).

I have a 6-shot .38 spl S&W revolver that jammed up in my CC class some 9 years ago. Now how would a revolver with a cylinder jam up? It did. Underneath the barrel, there is a pin that is used to pop the cylinder out. During shooting, the thing loosened up and came unscrewed a little and locked the cylinder in place. I could not pull the trigger because the cylinder was jammed and would not turn. The instructor had to stop the shooting to "address" my problem. I raised my hand and said my gun was jammed, and since it was a revolver, he said "impossible." Then he came over and looked and said, "well, ok, it is jammed." I tightened the rod and things worked again.

My Ruger LCP has 350 rounds, and has about 2 failure to feeds.

My PM9 has 2,445 rounds. I had a failure to eject at around the 2,200 round mark. The first I ever had. I have had sporadically a few failure to feeds (around 4). The first 2 occured at around the 250 round count. One occured when the gun and feed ramp were dirty after 200+ rounds in one session. The last occurred when the recoil spring had 1,400 rounds on it. When that happened, I changed out the spring (I keep some as spares) and immediately shot a box of 50 rounds with no problems.

My brother in law had a glock 30 or 36. It was a .45, and that thing produced an ejection jam (shell caught on slide) the only time I shot it.

So there you have it.

[wyntrout]

As you found, revolvers are not immune to malfunctions. I got in the habit of taking the S&W's apart after having intermittent jamming and then finding machining debris... pretty good sized metal chips or curls that would get into a bad location once in a while. Be careful and use the proper sized screwdrivers, though... especially on the side plates.
Screws need checking and maybe some Loctite. Then there are ammo problems, especially with reloads. Poor crimps can lead to the bullets pulling forward and jamming against the forcing cone with recoil. That's why factory ammo should be used for life and death circumstances... or use cannelured bullets/cases and extra care with crimping the case.
You can get new revolvers that way, or that might be why is was sold... problematic. I had several Smiths like that... new and used.
The slides on semi-autos can have hidden stuff in the striker channel or the trigger bar area that can give you fits. I've stayed away from the trigger bar as far as stripping the pistols, though.
Wynn:)

[oldtex]

I don't think any mechanical device is truly 100% reliable. Kahrs are relatively small guns with all the issues that entails, and I think that their reliability and durability over a large sample size over time won't match that of first rate modern full size service autos(Glock 9mm gen 1-3, H&K, etc). The real question in my opinion is what is an individual willing to tolerate in terms of frequency of stoppages.

I have three Kahrs. The K9 has 791 rds through it. At about 600 rds I had a premature slide lock shooting strong hand only (right) with Fed 147 gr HST, perhaps a shooter error (wandering thumb). At about rd 750, I had a horizontal stovepipe with an extended mag shooting Winchester USA 115 gr FMJ. The recoil spring seemed to be getting weak so I installed a new one after that.

The TP9 has about 559 rds through it. At about rd 540 I had a premature slide lock on the 2d rd of a mag while shooting weak hand only (left).

The PM9 has about 2075 rds through it, but it got a brand new upper installed by Kahr at about the 1819 rd mark because of peening. It had about 30 failures to return to battery in the first 200 rds. Then had about 9 FTRB between rd 200 and 900. Installed a new spring on the advice of Kahr CS, and had 2 stoppages between rd 900 and 1700. Two more between 1700 and 1819. Noticed peening at 1819 so I sent it in. this gun's serial number was not in the recall. It has not had a stoppage in the 260 rds since the new top end was installed. I really believe this PM9 runs best with a new recoil spring assembly every 500-1k rds.

I use only factory SAAMI ammo, factory mags, and I keep my guns clean, and lubed. I do shoot on the move a lot, and also shoot weak hand only and strong hand only alot, so I'm probably not a "good platform" much of the time.

Hope this helps.

[O'Dell]

Hmmmm... I've never considered myself lucky, but maybe I am when it comes to pistols. First, I will NOT keep a pistol that is not reliable. In the last 5 or 6 years I have sold four guns that I could not depend on - 2 Tauruses, one KelTec, and one Kimber. I currently own ten semi's, 3 S&W's, 3 SIG's, 2 Kahrs, and one each Taurus and SA. Four were bought used, so I don't know the total round count, but mine is about 7000 - 8000. Of the ten, I have had personally had two [2] failures, both on the XD 45 and both in the first 30 rounds. That's it! All have at least 500 rounds except the 4586 I bought in July, and that gun will feed empty 45 cases, so I'm not expecting any problems.

Since this is a Kahr forum, I'll mention that I traded a CW45 for a used PM45 this year, but the CW never had a problem. I just wanted the smaller PM.

[ndcarry]

Thanks everyone. From what it sounds like, maybe a trip back to Kahr for them would be the way to go.

[frank_drebin]

I have found that there isn't much on a gun that I can't fix myself. 99% of all Kahr gun troubles are related to the gun being tight. All three of my Kahrs needed a lot of repetitious cycling to properly "mate" the surfaces. On a 9mm Kahr I would buy some cheap, dirty ammo and shoot the hell out of it. Then take it home and hand cycle it several hundred times as well. One thing I noticed about my Kahrs was that when I could slowly rack the slide, chamber a round then slowly lower the slide and it seated the round they were ready for prime-time. Until that point I had intermittent issues with reliability. Each gun took a different amount of exercise to get to that point. My CW40 only took about 100 rounds while my CW9 took 300+. I'm betting that 100 rounds of some potent +P 9mm's would have seated everything in quicker.

[MikeyKahr]

Thoughts? Should BANG 499 out of 500 shots be expected? And then am I willing to take a 1 in 500 chance when in a situation of self defense that's what, a 1 in 20,000? (I don't know the numbers).

Like many, I expected less "confidence killing episodes" by stepping up to the Kahrs.

Hey John, welcome to the forum - thanks for jumping into the discussions. I've thought similar thoughts as you have and asked similar questions - I would suggest to you that it's part of the learning process.

I think it's best to be realistic, therefore there most likely will be a time at some point in the future that my PM9 will not go bang and do what it's supposed to do. The same could be said about every type of gun. Most likely, the problem will be of my own doing. But there is also a small percentage chance that it will be the fault of the manufacturer in some fashion. Should that slight percentage chance make me want to sell my PM9 because it might happen to me? I don't think so.

The same thoughts could be asked about buying a car. Should my Audi start each and every time I push the start button? (yes, I said start button!) ;) Yes, it should. There is a higher chance of it not starting because of something I did not do (fill it up with gas, take it to get oil changes, etc.). But there is also a slight percentage chance that it will not start due to some manufacturer error. Do I then proceed to ask, what if my car doesn't start that 1 out of 2,000 starts, should I put my perfectly running car up for sale now because it might not start that one time when I really need it? Am I willing to to take that chance? I did, with both my car...and my Kahr! :p

P.S. As a side note, I think this is the proper, realistic perspective to have when it comes to talk of the warranty as well. Do I wish Kahr had a lifetime warranty instead of a five-year warranty? Absolutely. But I also wish my Audi did, and I wish my house did too!! :) But I realize that after 100,00 miles if something warranty-related goes wrong, I'm going to have to get it fixed on my dime just like I'll have to do with my Kahr. After five years, they'll still take it in and make it right - they just won't pay for it (neither would my Audi dealer).

[hedgehog]

i think the longer slide/barrel a gun is the more reliable it seems to be. my t9 has never had a single failure of any kind, ever. i can retract the slide a half inch and gently let go it will always go all the way forward again