CW45 Trigger is "dead"? Help needed!

[OMCHamlin]

I have had a CW45 for a long time, shot well, never gave me any issues. Went to pull it out of the safe yesterday, cleared it and dry fired it, the trigger had normal spring tension, but pulling it to the rear did not cause the striker/firing pin to release, or in short, "nothing happened" other than the trigger traveled back to the rear of the frame and when released, returned forward. During the trigger stroke, I can feel a slight hitch or bump in the early part of the trigger stroke, but it does nothing, it's like it's slipping by. I had to gut the slide from the rear to remove it from the frame.

Kahr CS said they would either sell me the five possible parts that could be causing this, and I can swap them out, or I can ship it back to them for service. I would like to hear from the more experienced Kahr owners that have seen issues like this and get your input as to what the culprit might be, or what to visually inspect. I am not unfamiliar with working on firearms, but I have not been very deep in a Kahr before.

Thanks in advance for any assistance you might be able to provide.

[BirdsThaWord]

Welcome to the forum! I will try to walk you through some possible issue causing stuff, listing the easiest to check first...

Do you use grease? Could be that the firing pin safety is gummed, with caked grease, residue, brass flakes, etc. preventing the bump on the trigger bar (disconnector) from actuating it. Pull the slide and see if you can press it in with your finger. (see 1st pic).Given that the only thing that has changed since the last time you shot it is that time has gone by, I would say a thorough cleaning and degunking may be in order.

I was also going to guess the disconnector on the trigger bar could be rounded off (had a Bernadelli with that issue) preventing it from tripping the safety, but most likely not if it shot fine last time you used it. But since it is a possibility, with the slide off look at the rounded little tab that sticks up from your trigger bar that actuates/trips the safety. (See pic with red circle). Make sure it is not overly worn down. I have no idea just how used your gun is, as it would take a LOT of usage to wear that down.

Also, your little plate on the side of your grip may have worn from usage as the trigger bar can rub it thin, or can bulge it outward over time. Along the same lines, the little plate may have been removed at one point and not reinstalled tightly. Either of these (worn plate/trigger bar cover or the plate/cover being loose or bulged) would allow the trigger bar to move around too much, allowing it to travel away from the safety, so that the little trigger bar bump (disconnector) is no longer aligning with the safety to actuate it. See last pic.

Lastly, here’s a related, past thread about this kind of stuff, with a similar issue and another thing to check. Rather than rewrite it all, it was easier just to copy and paste the link. The moderator that gave the solution with pics really knows his stuff and I would be willing to guess that this is the most likely culprit over everything I wrote above:
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?33727-P9-is-unreliable-Trigger-frequently-fails-to-arm
In that thread, and in the last pic below, you’ll see a spring that pushes the trigger bar upward. If that spring is not in it’s proper place, it would allow the trigger bar too not return fully upward. Same as what I mentioned above about the side plate being overly worn or improperly installed, that spring would also not have a tight fit and it’s function can/could be effected.
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[getsome]

Hello OMCHamlin and welcome to Kahrtalk, sorry about the problem with your pistol and BirdsTheWord gives good advice and like he said, I have to wonder since it shot fine until you put it it in the safe and suddenly it started having issues I would think it was gummed up with old lube or dirt so since you were able to get the slide off you are ahead of the game what with having a trigger issue so before doing anything else I would spray the frame and trigger bar assembly out with a can of non chlorinated brake cleaner along with blowing out the striker clean out hole on the bottom of the slide and use some compressed air if possible to blow everything out and then do it again……..I found out the hard way that some gun lubes do not get along well and when I mixed CLP and Rem Oil to clean a S&W 686 revolver it turned into glue and locked up the action so it’s possible your pistol is just needing a good clean out…….After throughly spraying out the frame and slide, try reassembling it without any lube and see if trigger function returns which I think it might and if so lightly lube it up and go shooting but if the problem persists, lightly lube it and send it back to Kahr and let them figure it out because you shouldn’t have to throw replacement parts at it trying to get it to function properly…….Good luck, hope this helps and again, welcome to Kahrtalk……Let us know what happens……

[OMCHamlin]

Thanks Bird', this looks like the red meat I was looking for, I will have my morning coffee, then another, then dissect your procedure, step by step and check each item. Afterwards, I'll come edit this post with my findings.



easiest to check first...
FOR CLARITY, MY REPLIES WILL BE CAPS/BOLD

Do you use grease? NO, USUALLY MILTEC 1 WEAPONS OIL. Could be that the firing pin safety is gummed, with caked grease, residue, brass flakes, etc. preventing the bump on the trigger bar (disconnector) from actuating it. Pull the slide and see if you can press it in with your finger. (see 1st pic). YES, MOVES FREELY WITH LIGHT, BUT POSITIVE SPRING RETURN TO DOWN POSITION. I would say a thorough cleaning and degunking may be in order. I'MA GWAN DO DAT ANYWAYS, MAKES GUD SENSE...

I was also going to guess the disconnector on the trigger bar could be rounded off (had a Bernadelli with that issue) preventing it from tripping the safety, but most likely not if it shot fine last time you used it. But since it is a possibility, with the slide off look at the rounded little tab that sticks up from your trigger bar that actuates/trips the safety. (See pic with red circle). Make sure it is not overly worn down. I have no idea just how used your gun is, as it would take a LOT of usage to wear that down. AGREE, IT SHOULD TAKE WAAAY MORE THEN I'VE SHOT THIS GUN, OR BE MADE OUT OF SOFT ALUMINUM! BUT, VISUALLY INSPECTED; SAT.

Also, your little plate on the side of your grip may have worn from usage as the trigger bar can rub it thin, or can bulge it outward over time. Along the same lines, the little plate may have been removed at one point and not reinstalled tightly. FIT OF PLATE TO FRAME INSPECTED; SAT. TESTED VISUALLY, THREADED FASTENER NOT STRIPPED, TACTILE MOVEMENT OF TRIGGER BAR LOBE INDICATED ONLY MINIMAL (TO NO) SIDE TO SIDE MOVEMENT AND NOT IMPAIRED IN FORE TO AFT MOVEMENT. Either of these (worn plate/trigger bar cover or the plate/cover being loose or bulged) would allow the trigger bar to move around too much, allowing it to travel away from the safety, so that the little trigger bar bump (disconnector) is no longer aligning with the safety to actuate it. See last pic. SEE ABOVE.

Lastly, here’s a related, past thread about this kind of stuff, with a similar issue and another thing to check. Rather than rewrite it all, it was easier just to copy and paste the link. The moderator that gave the solution with pics really knows his stuff and I would be willing to guess that this is the most likely culprit over everything I wrote above:
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?33727-P9-is-unreliable-Trigger-frequently-fails-to-arm
In that thread, and in the last pic below, you’ll see a spring that pushes the trigger bar upward. If that spring is not in it’s proper place, it would allow the trigger bar too not return fully upward. Same as what I mentioned above about the side plate being overly worn or improperly installed, that spring would also not have a tight fit and it’s function can/could be effected. THAT WAS A GREAT DIS/RES DESCRIPTION, WHICH I COPIED TO KEEP, THANKS! THE SPRING SEEMS POSITIONED PROPERLY AND PROVIDING PROPER UPWARD TENSION ON THE TRIGGER BAR.
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Also, by slipping the empty slide back on, I can clearly see the trigger bar contacting the FP safety and moving it up and out of the way. Sooo now what?

[BirdsThaWord]

It sounds like a striker issue, not a trigger issue. As getsome suggested, you would next want to get that striker channel cleaned out. I recently purchased a used CW45. No issues, but I wanted to give it a good cleaning for safe measure. When I cleaned out the striker channel probably 100 or so brass flakes came out. The firing pin hole allows the bullets primer brass to enter into the striker channel. That, along with old lube/grease and gunpowder residue can gum up the works. When you remove the slide rear plate and get at the striker components you may even discover something else, but I doubt it again being that time passing was the only change from the last time you shot it. Let us know if you need help getting that stuff disassembled for cleaning.
If it wasn’t only for the time thing, there are a few components in the striker compartment that could be broken. Once you get it apart it would be obvious if anything is broken. Again, let us know if you need any help if you are unsure how to go about that stuff.
As a side note, I do not put any lube into my striker channels as I don’t want it being a sticky place for stuff. I think the Kahr strikers are pretty slick from the factory, so I am not concerned about them being grabby in there.

[BirdsThaWord]

One quick check...
If you push in the safety, can you push the striker towards the muzzle so that the firing pin protrudes through the firing pin hole?

[Bawanna]

As a standard function check I generally push the striker safety down and shake the slide. You should hear it rattle. I did this a lot with dept Glocks. No rattle, you got sticky or an issue in the striker channel.

[OMCHamlin]

Okay, I'm going to post a pic or two of this gun, internally. Prepare to be underwhelmed at my photography skilz...


https://i.imgur.com/qSwvwnV.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/ZRfeOYS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oBJoGj2.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/A6Rw7Gx.jpg

The slide is clean, dry and reassembled without issue, I am wondering about these surfaces, if they are causing the striker to slip past without any pickup at all. I did manage to get it to dry fire twice upon reassembly, but after that it would just start to pick up the striker and then slip by, resulting in a "dead trigger".

[BirdsThaWord]

I see nothing obvious by the pics you’ve provided. Do this:
Watch this video from the 4 minute mark to the 9 minute mark and do what he shows to disassemble and remove your striker assembly and firing pin assembly.
https://youtu.be/mi3VFRll2L4
Clean everything you’ve removed with some sort of gun cleaning solvent. You should clean everything to the point that there is no more black stuff, brass flakes, etc coming off/away on your cleaning cloth, patches, etc. (watch various youtube vids about cleaning guns if you are unaware of what materials or cleaning agents to use)
The little tunnel in the slide that you removed all of these parts from REALLY needs to be cleaned as well. That tunnel is known as your striker channel. Use a combination of gun cleaning solvent and gun cleaning patches, (I like Q tips dipped in solvent), etc until you see no more brass flakes, black stuff, etc coming out of it. You want that area “as clean as a whistle”
Once you have everything clean, start this video at the 3 minute mark and and reassemble everything.
https://youtu.be/mi3VFRll2L4
Unless you saw any of those components or pieces broken, now go and try to shoot it. By the way, I never recommend dry firing any gun on an empty chamber. Get a Snap Cap or laser training cartridge if you want to pull your trigger without a round in the gun. I’ll let you do your own research on why you don’t want to dry fire on a chamber with nothing for a striker, hammer, etc to fall against.
If nothing was broken and you now have all of these components clean and reassembled properly you should now be in business. If you have watched both vids and have done what I have said then you SHOULD be good to go. If you have done all of this and do not have a trigger still let me/us know.
By the way, if you accidentally remove any of your extractor components and want to know how to put them back in, or in case you want to clean those components as well, watching the 2 vids I’ve linked in full will show you what you need to know as well.
If anyone reading this feels I've left anything out or that I’ve over simplified things, fell free to chime in and add anything you may feel to be of value to the dead trigger situation. : )

[OMCHamlin]

Thanks, Bird, I'll do that. It is hard for me to imagine how this gun went from ridiculously, boringly reliable to "dead trigger" function overnight, seemingly with no causative factors in between? Unnerving to think that I functioned checked, live fired and carried this for a while just a year ago...
I WANT to resolve this myself (with your guy's advice, of course), but I guess if this doesn't get it, it's going to Kahr. I WILL keep this one, it's a very shootable (normally) compact, easy to carry .45, and it's nice to have one of those around!
Heck, I even just went and cruised Kahr's website, and I think the PM is too small, this size is simply a perfect compromise between carry-ability and shoot-ability.

[BirdsThaWord]

Thanks, Bird, I'll do that. It is hard for me to imagine how this gun went from ridiculously, boringly reliable to "dead trigger" function overnight, seemingly with no causative factors in between? Unnerving to think that I functioned checked, live fired and carried this for a while just a year ago...
I WANT to resolve this myself (with your guy's advice, of course), but I guess if this doesn't get it, it's going to Kahr. I WILL keep this one, it's a very shootable (normally) compact, easy to carry .45, and it's nice to have one of those around!
Heck, I even just went and cruised Kahr's website, and I think the PM is too small, this size is simply a perfect compromise between carry-ability and shoot-ability.
I’m sure it is frustrating and hoping for you that it is something simple. It also feels great to take a non working gun and get it running again, so hopefully your clean up will get her back to being what you know her as.
I agree, these are very good little 45’s and very shootable. I love them for their triggers and for how slim they are compared to many of the other 45’s.

[BirdsThaWord]

With the slide off, if you pull the trigger back and forth does both the disconnector bump on the trigger bar rock back and forth, as well as the cocking cam? If you give the cocking cam some resistance with a finger tip, does it still do it’s thing, rocking back and forth as you pull the trigger? If it is stopped from doing it’s thing when you give it resistance then the interface between the cocking cam and the trigger bar would be the issue. Either part could be rounded off or the trigger bar spring could be too weak, or out of one of its pockets, not letting the trigger bar do it’s job anymore, operating the cocking cam and acting as disconnector. (see red circle for where they interface). If you do stop the cocking cam by offering resistance as you pull the trigger, and want to see what’s going on, you can pop off that plate/cover on the side to check everything out and watch for proper function as you work the trigger.
And, I just re-read what you last wrote, which was that everything was clean and reassembled, so if you have done that then there’s obviously no heed to watch the vids I last attached. I just wasn’t sure at that point if you had gotten all of your striker stuff out and that area cleaned up or not.

[OMCHamlin]

So I did what you suggested, with slide off, a finger on the cocking cam and manipulating the trigger, the cocking cam appears to go through it's cycle, and it is not interrupted by my finger pressure. The trigger bar disconnector bump is traveling back and forth as well, and a previous visual of it's spring seemed to indicate that it's where it's supposed to be and it does not SEEM weak at all.
Now here's something; if I put the assembled slide in place on the frame WITHOUT the slide stop pin in place, and let the slide seat forward under recoil spring tension, it goes just far enough forward to cause the striker lug (sear?) to engage the cocking cam and the firing chain is reconnected (I can pull the trigger and the right stuff happens). So what is this telling me? It's telling me that some minute something is not allowing the striker to go far enough forward to reengage the cocking cam. So another through cleaning of the striker channel, the striker itself and any other associated bits, then reassembly with installation of the slide stop and it SEEMS to be "good" again!
Comments welcome!

[Bawanna]

You mentioned that you had to gut the slide from the rear to remove it from the frame. Is it possible you cleaned it before putting in the safe and missed the hole in the barrel lug? I've only ever had to gut the slide when this occurred thankfully to other people. Actually a couple times, it's easy to miss it. Thankfully Greg here talked me through the process to gut the slide which you figured out yourself. My hats off to you for that. Not easy.
Been awhile and I don't recall if the gun could appear to be in battery or was stuck part way open so I might be totally off base here.

[ripley16]

The one time I had a "dead trigger" the cause was a broken trigger bar. The rear end sheared off. Kahr fixed it on their dime.

[OMCHamlin]

You mentioned that you had to gut the slide from the rear to remove it from the frame. Is it possible you cleaned it before putting in the safe and missed the hole in the barrel lug? I've only ever had to gut the slide when this occurred thankfully to other people. Actually a couple times, it's easy to miss it. Thankfully Greg here talked me through the process to gut the slide which you figured out yourself. My hats off to you for that. Not easy.
Been awhile and I don't recall if the gun could appear to be in battery or was stuck part way open so I might be totally off base here.
No. In this case, the trigger had to be squeezed in order to release the striker to remove the slide. Since squeezing the trigger would not result in striker release, the slide had to be disassembled on the gun while in the locked back position, in order to remove the retaining plate, striker spring and guide and the striker and that little spacer at the front of the striker. I do understand what you are talking about though, this was not that.

Wondering out loud, could I have a weak striker spring? Not pushing the striker forward quite hard enough? It would have to be fully forward (like with gusto), in order to reset against the cocking cam?

I'm wondering that because I do vaguely recall replacing the recoil spring maybe a year ago, and it was one STRONG son of a gun! I say this only because I recall an instance with Glock pistols, something about competing springs not of a compatible weight causing reset issues. It does not directly relate, but maybe similar?

[BirdsThaWord]

The one time I had a "dead trigger" the cause was a broken trigger bar. The rear end sheared off. Kahr fixed it on their dime.
That’s why I mentioned checking the back and forth motion of the cocking cam and disconnector while working the trigger, and then doing so with pressure on the cocking cam. If his trigger bar were broken or rounded off then he would have been able to stop the cocking cam with pressure. It would seem that his trigger bar is not the issue, based on his results when he applied pressure.

[BirdsThaWord]

OMCH: Not sure what to say about it resetting and working when reinstalled without the slide stop pin in. Also unsure if a weak striker spring would prevent reset. I would think it would only give a weak strike. If I wanted to test your theory, I would stretch the striker spring a bit. If the problem goes away then bingo, you just need a new striker spring. Going out on a limb, and trying to think outside the box, but on reassembly could you have put the striker spacer in the wrong way? Maybe not straddling the striker correctly. I’m not even sure if it could be put in backwards, but if so it would effect how the spring would interact with the striker/spacer. Unfortunately, only another disassembly would tell you that. Also, when you release the trigger, does it go all the way forward by itself?

[OMCHamlin]

Bird, Not sure either, except it must have allowed the slide to go ever so slightly farther forward, but that's when I noticed I could pull the trigger and get engagement. Working backwards I re-cleaned the striker channel, re-checked the arrangement of the spring guide (I'm truly NOT even sure it could go in backwards, but I could understand the arrangement from the get-go, so I'm pretty sure I reinstalled it correctly every time.) Anyhow, the thing is that I didn't get much of anything on a cotton swab out of the striker channel or off of the striker or anything. My "springs competing" idea was, I think, more unique to Glock trigger systems, and not applicable here. Is the Kahr striker partially cocked with the trigger at rest, fully forward? I guess it must be.
And as I went to check it out to see about it being partially cocked, crap, it did it again, so it's still "broke"... Damn, I thought I was on to something...

[topgun1953]

Bird, Not sure either, except it must have allowed the slide to go ever so slightly farther forward, but that's when I noticed I could pull the trigger and get engagement. Working backwards I re-cleaned the striker channel, re-checked the arrangement of the spring guide (I'm truly NOT even sure it could go in backwards, but I could understand the arrangement from the get-go, so I'm pretty sure I reinstalled it correctly every time.) Anyhow, the thing is that I didn't get much of anything on a cotton swab out of the striker channel or off of the striker or anything. My "springs competing" idea was, I think, more unique to Glock trigger systems, and not applicable here. Is the Kahr striker partially cocked with the trigger at rest, fully forward? I guess it must be.
And as I went to check it out to see about it being partially cocked, crap, it did it again, so it's still "broke"... Damn, I thought I was on to something...

The recoil and striker springs do "compete" in a Kahr.

[BirdsThaWord]

Is the Kahr striker partially cocked with the trigger at rest, fully forward? I guess it must be.
Correct. But from what I understand, the tension is on the striker spacer and not on the striker itself, which for me is not so understandable since the spacer rides in/against the striker itself.
Ok... maybe this is something, maybe not, but analyzing your pics again, I see a slight difference in your cocking cam orientation vs mine, both in the shot where your trigger is at rest and when you have it pulled. The first pic is yours, with the trigger at rest. Look at your cam, then look at the second pic. In the second pic (mine) you’ll see yours looks canted a bit forward while mine is pretty much vertical. Could be the angle of the shot, but I tried my best to re-create your shot.

Now look at the third pic, which is with your trigger being pulled. Again, your cam appears to have a bit of an angle to it vs in the 4th pic (mine), where mine lays very flat, very in line with the ejector. Am I seeing things? When your trigger is pulled does your cam lay back very flat and in line with the same angle as your ejector? If I am correct, maybe your cocking cam has spun a bit on it’s pin? Maybe it’s little spring has wollowed out the little hole in the cam it rests in? Maybe that spring has lost its strength? Or is it broken? In the last pic, I’ve drawn an arrow to the little leg of the spring that goes into a little hole in the cam.
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[BirdsThaWord]

In this thread, a guy was having issues with his cocking cam spring
http://www.kahrtalk.com/archive/index.php/t-13973.html

[BirdsThaWord]

The recoil and striker springs do "compete" in a Kahr.
Now that I think about that, his slide moving forward a bit would be removing some of the “compete” given by the recoil spring, possibly allowing a weak cocking cam spring to do it’s job without normal pressures it would experience when the slide is in the normal resting position.

[dao]

Okay, I'm going to post a pic or two of this gun, internally. Prepare to be underwhelmed at my photography skilz...

https://i.imgur.com/A6Rw7Gx.jpg

The slide is clean, dry and reassembled without issue, I am wondering about these surfaces, if they are causing the striker to slip past without any pickup at all. I did manage to get it to dry fire twice upon reassembly, but after that it would just start to pick up the striker and then slip by, resulting in a "dead trigger".

Isn't that striker block supposed to be sitting higher in this picture? Is the spring on the bottom of it missing?

[DJK11]

Go to the first pict in post #8. It appears there is a missing corner or some sort of beveled corner on one lobe of the cocking came. While I don’t own a CW45 but none of my PM’s have a “beveled “ corner on the lobe. Most of the cams are interchangeable, same part number.

[OMCHamlin]

Gosh, having read the cocking cam spring thread that Bird referenced, and the fact that I "thought " I had it fixed once only to find it was intermittent and has returned, I am finding myself on the fence about just saying screw it and buying a $25 label from Kahr and sending it in to them. Part of me loves a good chase, and this clearly is stacking up to be a "good chase", but the other part of me realizes this is not a range toy, this stays full of Rem Golden Sabres for serious matters.
And Bird, YES, I do see the things you pointed out and thank you for going to all that trouble for me, I do appreciate it.
As to "competing springs" theory, in a Glock, if you put a heavy trigger spring in (to lighten the trigger pull), coupled with a light striker spring, you CAN run into reset issues in a hurry. I thought this might be similar, but not, not exactly. Still, the stout recoil spring, and the striker spring, are both pushing their respective loads forward, right? So the spring in "competition" with the recoil and striker springs should be the cocking cam spring? Shouldn't it need enough "gusto" to be able to intercept the striker lug and keep hold of it while at rest, in order to keep the "ignition" chain intact when the trigger stroke is executed? It feels like it is slipping past something (the cocking cam tip?) very early in the trigger stroke.

Please try to read through my word goulash, sometimes I type in circles, but I am very interested in what the root cause is in this "issue"... Thanks all!

Oh, and the striker safety was down a hair, the striker was forward, trapping the safety in a lower position.

[OMCHamlin]

OH HECK! Check THIS out!; I was simply putting everything back together, I put the side plate back on, tightened it down just to that point before those threads might "think" about beginning to yield and cycled the action. Sure enough, dead trigger. BUT, I gingerly backed that retaining screw out and heard a subtle "click", and the trigger was "alive" again! "It's alive, ALIVE, I TELL YOU!"
Hmm, well, now what? I'm not leaving that little fastener a turn backed out, but screwed all the way in, it clearly (and repeatedly) has an effect!

[BirdsThaWord]

OH HECK! Check THIS out!; I was simply putting everything back together, I put the side plate back on, tightened it down just to that point before those threads might "think" about beginning to yield and cycled the action. Sure enough, dead trigger. BUT, I gingerly backed that retaining screw out and heard a subtle "click", and the trigger was "alive" again! "It's alive, ALIVE, I TELL YOU!"
Hmm, well, now what? I'm not leaving that little fastener a turn backed out, but screwed all the way in, it clearly (and repeatedly) has an effect!

So in one of my earlier replies, mentioning the side plate, I was thinking you could have too much room in there, allowing the trigger bar and spring to move around too much. It sounds like it was the opposite, with too much pressure on them. Too much pressure and the disco was not able to do it's job. So, are you good to go?

[BirdsThaWord]

Go to the first pict in post #8. It appears there is a missing corner or some sort of beveled corner on one lobe of the cocking came. While I don’t own a CW45 but none of my PM’s have a “beveled “ corner on the lobe. Most of the cams are interchangeable, same part number.
I thought the same at first, but then checked mine and it is the same as his.

[BirdsThaWord]

Maybe a tiny o ring on your sideplate screw? Or, if me, I'd lightly clearance the back of the plate, or polish that side of the trigger bar or at minimum grease the bar where it slides against the plate. Did you by chance notice any trigger bar wear on the backside of the plate? I've owned budget mouse guns where trigger bars ran under the grips. Over tightening the grips and gun no worky!

[OMCHamlin]

Maybe a tiny o ring on your sideplate screw? Or, if me, I'd lightly clearance the back of the plate, or polish that side of the trigger bar or at minimum grease the bar where it slides against the plate. Did you by chance notice any trigger bar wear on the backside of the plate? I've owned budget mouse guns where trigger bars ran under the grips. Over tightening the grips and gun no worky!
Not sure which I'm going to do, you can bet though, I'll fill you guys in. Maybe someone else can learn from all of this down the road...
As to the budget mouse guns, yeah, a certain Raven .25 comes to mind...

[BirdsThaWord]

Not sure which I'm going to do, you can bet though, I'll fill you guys in. Maybe someone else can learn from all of this down the road...
As to the budget mouse guns, yeah, a certain Raven .25 comes to mind...
10-4. Whatever you do, best of luck to you!

[Bawanna]

The strange thing about this whole story is I've been playing on the Kahr site for quite a spell and I've never ever heard of this occurring before. Also wondering why this suddenly appeared after living in the safe for a spell and was fine when it went in but not when it came out.

I'd wonder if the side plate was badly molded or even the frame but you say it worked fine before, why now?

I'm just extremely curious what the heck is going on here.

[BirdsThaWord]

The strange thing about this whole story is I've been playing on the Kahr site for quite a spell and I've never ever heard of this occurring before. Also wondering why this suddenly appeared after living in the safe for a spell and was fine when it went in but not when it came out.

I'd wonder if the side plate was badly molded or even the frame but you say it worked fine before, why now?

I'm just extremely curious what the heck is going on here.

The only truly plausible, possible realistic answer is that this man has a gremlin living in his safe!
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[OMCHamlin]

The strange thing about this whole story is I've been playing on the Kahr site for quite a spell and I've never ever heard of this occurring before. Also wondering why this suddenly appeared after living in the safe for a spell and was fine when it went in but not when it came out.

I'd wonder if the side plate was badly molded or even the frame but you say it worked fine before, why now?

I'm just extremely curious what the heck is going on here.

You and me both, as I live and breathe, all that I have described is true, and I've shared every thought and observation in real time. I'm not usually a magnet for weird problems, in fact I searched this board for "dead trigger" thinking I would find several "hits", but nope, I had to rephrase and then finally just post this thread. I might put a glue trap down in the bottom of my safe, see if I can catch this gremlin...

[dao]

I just finished cleaning some of my Kahrs. In each of them the striker block sits flush to the underside of the slide, as opposed to how it is sunken below that level in the picture I reposted in Post #24. Are you sure the itty bitty spring that sits on top of the block in its little hole, (with the slide right side up), is in place?
Normally with the slide in hand you should be able to press that striker block up and down in its hole because the spring causes it to rebound to bring it flush with the underside of the slide. I don't see that in your picture OMCH.
If that spring is missing it could conceivably cause the gun to intermittently fail to operate when gravity or manipulation of the gun caused the striker block to orient either correctly or incorrectly prior to cocking the gun and pulling the trigger...

[getsome]

I saw that too and started to say something but didn’t want to show my ignorance…..I’ve never had a .45 but on my current PM9 that striker block sits flush with the slide and is under spring pressure……

[BirdsThaWord]

He explained that in post #26. On my CW45, it does not automatically rebound either, but with a lil wiggling of the striker it does. My CW45 runs fine (at least it did on my last outing, after a thorough strip and clean up.) Mine has had maybe 50-60 rounds through it since that clean up, so it is not that dirty and still acts as his does, unless again I wiggle the striker assembly. Just checked, my CW9 rebounds each time as you guys say yours does.

[dao]

Interesting. And concerning. I mean that is what is supposed to keep the striker from being released without a full trigger pull. I know that the strikers on Kahrs are not fully tensioned until that pull is completed, but what if it releases early? Oh well, that's not the big question here. Though a call to Kahr may either eliminate it as a possibility, or make it one.

[BirdsThaWord]

Interesting. And concerning. I mean that is what is supposed to keep the striker from being released without a full trigger pull. I know that the strikers on Kahrs are not fully tensioned until that pull is completed, but what if it releases early? Oh well, that's not the big question here. Though a call to Kahr may either eliminate it as a possibility, or make it one.
I’m curious too to see the resolution to this and hope OMCH keeps us “in the know”. I’d bet it’s either cam spring related or side plate/trigger bar/trigger bar spring related, based on all of the discussion that has transpired. Wish I had his gun here to try various things out.

[getsome]

I’m curious as well as to what this puzzle is about and I admire you OMCHamlin for wanting to fix it on your own and you have certainly tried everything way beyond what most anyone here would do but IMHO it’s time to send it back to the mothership and let them figure it out because you shouldn’t have to always wonder if this pistol will work if you need it to…….The problem with Kahr fixing it is they never say on the return invoice what they did but say something like, trigger issue resolved and range tested ok…….In the end it doesn’t really matter what they repair, only that it works 100%……..Good luck and if you do send it back please let us know what they say the fix was………

[OMCHamlin]

I’m curious too to see the resolution to this and hope OMCH keeps us “in the know”. I’d bet it’s either cam spring related or side plate/trigger bar/trigger bar spring related, based on all of the discussion that has transpired. Wish I had his gun here to try various things out.
Bird, I promise, I think of something, I'll write it down here and hit "Post Quick Reply". And I do have some knowledge of semi-auto pistols and their intricacies, but I'll NOT hesitate to reach out for an opinion or advice on a system I am less then well versed in. And if we can figure this out, I'll bet it will happen to some other yutz some day, and maybe they'll stumble on this and we'll all get a little smarter, together...

Oh, and here, hopefully this will illustrate my safety with the striker in the normal position, see? Flush. I was not aware that the 9 platform did a better job of returning, or I wonder if it could be sporadic between calibers, and Bird and I got 45s that just do that. I swear every Glock I've ever been in would do the same (cause the safety plunger to remain depressed while the striker is in the forward, or fired position.)
https://i.imgur.com/MYRkeTM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KTZG5ZB.jpg

[OMCHamlin]

Fellas, I'm just going to say it, much like 1600 Pennsylvania Ave on "kids Halloween trick or treat night, there appears to have been some inappropriate friction taking place...
https://i.imgur.com/aBycbRd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/N1NwPec.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/nhIXgBP.jpg

Guys, in comparison, do any of your cover plates show a similar wear pattern? I am calling Kahr tomorrow, if I can talk to the same tech that I did earlier, and now describe what I am seeing, I'll get his .02 worth, but I'm thinking a new plate, plate screw (just because) and maybe a trigger bar and spring... Who's WITH ME!?!?

[BirdsThaWord]

l
Bird, I promise, I think of something, I'll write it down here and hit "Post Quick Reply". And I do have some knowledge of semi-auto pistols and their intricacies, but I'll NOT hesitate to reach out for an opinion or advice on a system I am less then well versed in. And if we can figure this out, I'll bet it will happen to some other yutz some day, and maybe they'll stumble on this and we'll all get a little smarter, together...

Oh, and here, hopefully this will illustrate my safety with the striker in the normal position, see? Flush. I was not aware that the 9 platform did a better job of returning, or I wonder if it could be sporadic between calibers, and Bird and I got 45s that just do that. I swear every Glock I've ever been in would do the same (cause the safety plunger to remain depressed while the striker is in the forward, or fired position.)
https://i.imgur.com/MYRkeTM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KTZG5ZB.jpg
:cool::cool::cool: Thanks in advance for letting us know. I’ve been helped by others here, more so early on, before I know what I now know, so always feel I should return it. Glad you think the same in that others here, or other here in the future may solve some issues with this. I’ve enjoyed trying to get it figured out. Gets the old cogs turnin!
I can tell you are “in the know” since you attacked this from multiple angles, with multiple attempts when many would have thrown in the towel due to either a lack of mechanical aptitude, or a lack of desire to learn.
Yes, I’m miffed too as to why the CW9 vs the CW45 safety react differently. Maybe something about how they need to react to to the different amount of power or energy that they face when doing their thing during use.
Good luck with it. I’m sure you will have a big grin on your face when you next take it to the range and she runs like she once did. ;)

[BirdsThaWord]

Ooooh! I knowed it!!! Yes, that plate looks like it has taken a beating. I won’t be pulling mine for a comparison, but that was exactly what I thought when you said that loosening the plate made a noise and the trigger returned. I would gob some grease on it, put it back on and see if the gun runs. I think a new plate would only fix 1/2 the concern though. The outside of your trigger bar may have manufacturing “extras”, such as burs or sharp edges that are rubbing that plate raw. If you’ve looked at some of my threads, I enjoy polishing stuff. If me, I’d polish the snot outta that side of the trigger bar, use plastic polish on the back side of the plate (works wonders on antique car lenses by the way), add some grease, then it should slip back and forth like glass on greased glass. There’s obviously been too much tension in there for the trigger bar to be able to move around as engineered and designed to function. I think the word BINGO is in order, but I have been wrong onest or twicte. Better yet, if you can get those parts new from Kahr on their dime!!!

[Bawanna]

Fellas, I'm just going to say it, much like 1600 Pennsylvania Ave on "kids Halloween trick or treat night, there appears to have been some inappropriate friction taking place...
https://i.imgur.com/aBycbRd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/N1NwPec.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/nhIXgBP.jpg

Guys, in comparison, do any of your cover plates show a similar wear pattern? I am calling Kahr tomorrow, if I can talk to the same tech that I did earlier, and now describe what I am seeing, I'll get his .02 worth, but I'm thinking a new plate, plate screw (just because) and maybe a trigger bar and spring... Who's WITH ME!?!?


Might benefit to send that picture of the side plate to Kahr CS. Wish I could see it in person, the photo doesn't show the roughness.
I also would expect to see a more consistent wear pattern. The only thing wearing against it is the trigger bar which goes back and forth and only slightly up and down. The side plate is obviously going in too far and hitting the trigger bar more than it should.
Kahr will know more than us, curious once again what they will say. My only tupperware Kahr is a PM45 and I've never had the side plate off so I'm clueless what it looks like inside. All my others are steel.

[BirdsThaWord]

If they don’t give you those parts, stuff like this can be found on Ebay pretty frequently. If I didn’t have so many parts for this gun and that gun, and various gun projects “in the works”, I’d buy one of these little parts packages for a just in case thing.
18762

[OMCHamlin]

Well, we'll see about the "on their dime", but what the heck, I'll make my best pitch! And don't get me wrong, I am most certainly NOT trying to say I am an expert on any of this, but I've shaken a few "odd bugs" out here and there. As to polishing both pieces, I thought about that, but I want to (I think) start with fresh parts seeing as how they are all relatively cheap. We'll see what Kahr says. I am NOT calling this fixed yet, but when I heard that "click" as I was turning that Torx driver, I admit to a wee little smile...

[BirdsThaWord]

Well, we'll see about the "on their dime", but what the heck, I'll make my best pitch! And don't get me wrong, I am most certainly NOT trying to say I am an expert on any of this, but I've shaken a few "odd bugs" out here and there. As to polishing both pieces, I thought about that, but I want to (I think) start with fresh parts seeing as how they are all relatively cheap. We'll see what Kahr says. I am NOT calling this fixed yet, but when I heard that "click" as I was turning that Torx driver, I admit to a wee little smile...
Well I am glad that you seem to be moving in the right direction. By the looks of that back plate, with gouged areas, missing material, scratches galore and what looks like the trigger bar plating rubbed off and into the plastic, I am buying a lottery ticket. Either on their dime or not, I really do feel that this area, with how it all looks to have been interacting/reacting, really is what has been causing your issue. I refer back to my mouse gun comment earlier.

[dao]

Who Nelly, hold on a second here. Now we need to see a picture of your trigger bar and its attendent spring, fully installed on your gun. It could be that the spring is wonky, or the bar is bent outward, with either situation pushing the spring and/or the bar against that plate.

If you do talk to Kahr tomorrow OMCH, and you happen to think about it I'd really be interested to know why you and Bird have examples in which the striker block does not return to its normal, safe position every time.

Isn't gun detective work fun? :)

[BirdsThaWord]

I was about to type the same thing about the trigger bar. I believe it is bowed outward slightly. That would explain my earlier comment about how your cam seemed canted forward more than mine. A bowed trigger bar would take some of the push backwards off the cam, allowing it to cant forward.

[OMCHamlin]

Who Nelly, hold on a second here. Now we need to see a picture of your trigger bar and its attendent spring, fully installed on your gun. It could be that the spring is wonky, or the bar is bent outward, with either situation pushing the spring and/or the bar against that plate.

If you do talk to Kahr tomorrow OMCH, and you happen to think about it I'd really be interested to know why you and Bird have examples in which the striker block does not return to its normal, safe position every time.

Isn't gun detective work fun? :)

NO! SOLVING that crap is fun, sometimes the hunt can be maddening... And okay, fine, I'll stick a pic or three up of the frame - sideplate in the AM. Or now...
https://i.imgur.com/jzsDbZW.jpg1
https://i.imgur.com/lvwB6W9.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/cmCM3Ud.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/VuPWbpd.jpg?1

[BirdsThaWord]

NO! SOLVING that crap is fun, sometimes the hunt can be maddening... And okay, fine, I'll stick a pic or three up of the frame - sideplate in the AM.
Lol! If I did not feel your frustration, now I do. Not laughing at you of course, but you got me reminiscing about some of my past troubles. Heck, dealing with one issue after another trying to modify a few Beretta’s right now. Seems like every dang part I buy needs a little shave here, a little new part to compliment the new part there. I just want to be done with them and go shoot them!!!

[dao]

The abrasions to the cover plate all seem to be on the rear-most end of it.
Could it be that the trigger bar is either bent inward? Or that it is placed on the wrong side of whatever it rides next to on the trigger pivot pin? I have no experience with the trigger assembly on Kahrs, so I don't know what they look like when assembled. Is there more than one component attached to whatever the forward end of the trigger bar is attached to? If so, could their respective positions be swapped? If so, wouldn't it put the rear-most end of the trigger bar at an outward cant?

[OMCHamlin]

Listen to this; I'm securing for the night, I go to round up all my little CW45 parts... Quick, what's missing??? Yep, that damn little eyelash of a sideplate screw! OHHH &^%#!!
So I've combed everywhere for about 5 minutes, hit the floor with the Surefire, nothing. Screw ME! Then I stand up, and inside my slipper, I feel a little dig... Yep, there it is, poking me in the sole of my foot... Oh hell, I'm done for the night, I can only go south from here...

[Bawanna]

I've spent countless hours looking for tiny little must have parts. Amazing where they end up sometimes. I never give up, it's part of the challenge.

[BirdsThaWord]

I've spent countless hours looking for tiny little must have parts. Amazing where they end up sometimes. I never give up, it's part of the challenge.
I’ve gotten to the point that I just call over my wife or son. I can look for 30 minutes, then they look for 30 seconds and find it.

[BirdsThaWord]

The abrasions to the cover plate all seem to be on the rear-most end of it.
Could it be that the trigger bar is either bent inward? Or that it is placed on the wrong side of whatever it rides next to on the trigger pivot pin? I have no experience with the trigger assembly on Kahrs, so I don't know what they look like when assembled. Is there more than one component attached to whatever the forward end of the trigger bar is attached to? If so, could their respective positions be swapped? If so, wouldn't it put the rear-most end of the trigger bar at an outward cant?

The litttle plastic trigger spacer would prevent you from installing anything backwards around the trigger/trigger pivot pin area. It is conical on one side and also has a flat area on one side of the non conical end. Those shapes prevent you from being able to install any of that stuff wrong as it will not fit in there anyway but correctly, at least as far as the trigger bar part goes. The trigger spring can be put in wrong though. I did that once. Getting the above mentioned flat area and everything else lined up in there and the pin back through it was a real pita. Been a while since I did that, but I remember it was no fun.

[BirdsThaWord]

OMCH...
As DAO mentioned, I too saw that the rear of the plate looked to have been taking the most wear. I can not tell from the pics if there is any bow in the bar, but in the red circle area I can see where the plating on the bar exhibits wear to the finish from the rubbing. A bit of high grit sandpaper and then a polishing cloth taken to it, followed up by some grease and reinstallation of the side plate should tell you if this is indeed the cause. If after that everything works, then yes a new side plate and trigger bar are called for. Even if it runs after the polish and grease I’d replace that stuff anyway as it would most likely only prolong the inevitable.

18765

Next, that spring to bar area shows a lot of wear. It too could be polished in that area, and/or greased up at a minimum. If you pop the spring out, you can clean up the little slot/groove/pocket on the underside of the trigger bar that the spring rests in. You can use a toothpick or dental pic to clean that area out. I’ve read about this pocket having a manufacturing bur on one guys gun, causing a gritty trigger. I’m sure crud in there could act the same, or cause the trigger bar to move in a way that is not optimal.

18766

[OMCHamlin]

I’ve gotten to the point that I just call over my wife or son. I can look for 30 minutes, then they look for 30 seconds and find it.

I've gotten better at projecting flight path and gridding off search zones, but now I have a whole new floor (we moved to Tennessee in December), which means a whole new "bounce trajectory". Wives finding stuff? Ha! MY Kristi once found a Ruger front sight screw on a GRASS RANGE! I s--t you not, and can subpoena witnesses...

[OMCHamlin]

OMCH...
As DAO mentioned, I too saw that the rear of the plate looked to have been taking the most wear. I can not tell from the pics if there is any bow in the bar, but in the red circle area I can see where the plating on the bar exhibits wear to the finish from the rubbing. A bit of high grit sandpaper and then a polishing cloth taken to it, followed up by some grease and reinstallation of the side plate should tell you if this is indeed the cause. If after that everything works, then yes a new side plate and trigger bar are called for. Even if it runs after the polish and grease I’d replace that stuff anyway as it would most likely only prolong the inevitable.

18765

Next, that spring to bar area shows a lot of wear. It too could be polished in that area, and/or greased up at a minimum. If you pop the spring out, you can clean up the little slot/groove/pocket on the underside of the trigger bar that the spring rests in. You can use a toothpick or dental pic to clean that area out. I’ve read about this pocket having a manufacturing bur on one guys gun, causing a gritty trigger. I’m sure crud in there could act the same, or cause the trigger bar to move in a way that is not optimal.

18766

I agree on both counts, that one area is definitely a wear spot. but look also at the top of the disconnector lump, there are a couple of micro burrs with corresponding contact points at the top of the side plate interior.

[BirdsThaWord]

Agreed. Basically, the whole thing is being pushed outwards too much from what it looks like.

[BirdsThaWord]

I've gotten better at projecting flight path and gridding off search zones, but now I have a whole new floor (we moved to Tennessee in December), which means a whole new "bounce trajectory". Wives finding stuff? Ha! MY Kristi once found a Ruger front sight screw on a GRASS RANGE! I s--t you not, and can subpoena witnesses...
Kristi is a keeper for sure! Wish I had vision like that!

[dao]

You're gonna fit in just fine here OM.

I once had a P380 on which I once replaced the slide and that hump ended up outside the slide. I took the slide back off and put it on more carefully and never had another problem with it though I did eventually trade that one off. I think that you and Bird are right and have identified the areas on the trigger bar that are not as they should be. A gritty trigger can also be the result of the underside of the bar where the spring end rides having burrs. I've cleaned up a few trigger travels by smoothing that area out. But the question on yours still remains. What is causing or caused the burrs and possible deflection in the trigger bar?
Glad you found your spring. My wife has also helped find more than one invisible doo-hickey.

[OMCHamlin]

You're gonna fit in just fine here OM.

I once had a P380 on which I once replaced the slide and that hump ended up outside the slide. I took the slide back off and put it on more carefully and never had another problem with it though I did eventually trade that one off. I think that you and Bird are right and have identified the areas on the trigger bar that are not as they should be. A gritty trigger can also be the result of the underside of the bar where the spring end rides having burrs. I've cleaned up a few trigger travels by smoothing that area out. But the question on yours still remains. What is causing or caused the burrs and possible deflection in the trigger bar?
Glad you found your spring. My wife has also helped find more than one invisible doo-hickey.

I hope so, I need to stay in the mechanical and pure shooting sections, I am very opinionated and have self imploded on a forum or two in the general or political sub-forums. It's... nice to just talk gun stuff for a change...

Up next: the Kahr Arms phone call...

[OMCHamlin]

Spoke with Joshua, at Kahr tech support & we discussed this in detail, in fact I ended up sending him many of the same pics I shared with you guys. We'll see what he says... Right off the bat, I got the idea that he was not necessarily in favor of sprinkling a handful of new parts in this thing, as I felt you guys agreed, so in light of that, I may be diving in and super polishing this trigger bar and he suggested possibly removing it and giving it a slight "tweak" inward. Stand by...

[dao]

If anything OM I think it might already be bent inward, causing the hump on the rear end of it to stick out a bit. I wish I had a loose one that I could take a picture of while sitting on a flat surface (the part not me :o) ).

Did Joshua say anything about the plunger block sitting above the bottom of the slide's surface?

[Bawanna]

I hope so, I need to stay in the mechanical and pure shooting sections, I am very opinionated and have self imploded on a forum or two in the general or political sub-forums. It's... nice to just talk gun stuff for a change...

Up next: the Kahr Arms phone call...

Sounds like me speaking the truth without thought to feelings and imploding. Been a very long time since we has any big fisticuffs on the forum. Used to be fun till they made me a moderator, now nobody wants to fight me anymore.
Don't hold back, just have to be nice and not get to personal. Also never ever be rude or negative to any Kahr folks in any way. Pedro offers them his protection.

[OMCHamlin]

So here is Joshua's reply. and I must admit to thinking, how many customer service reps would go out of their way to provide THIS level of customer service and dialog in 2022? Usually, you would expect "I don't know sir, send it in, we'll put it in line, we'll fix it when we fix it, we're very busy, blah, blah, blah..."

Instead; I got this reply:

"Hello,



Thank you for the photos, happy to say my gunsmith and I seem to agree that if anything the trigger bar might need to be adjusted inward. Otherwise it looks fine. We don't think it is necessary to replace it. Of course you are always welcome to have us do it if you need us to. Feel free to ask us anything else if it comes up in the future.



Kind regards,

Joshua

Customer Service Department
Kahr Firearms Group"

So, okay, you guys know what's next, I'll update once it's removed, set on a flat surface, mirror polished, yada, yada, yada...

[BirdsThaWord]

So here is Joshua's reply. and I must admit to thinking, how many customer service reps would go out of their way to provide THIS level of customer service and dialog in 2022? Usually, you would expect "I don't know sir, send it in, we'll put it in line, we'll fix it when we fix it, we're very busy, blah, blah, blah..."

Instead; I got this reply:

"Hello,



Thank you for the photos, happy to say my gunsmith and I seem to agree that if anything the trigger bar might need to be adjusted inward. Otherwise it looks fine. We don't think it is necessary to replace it. Of course you are always welcome to have us do it if you need us to. Feel free to ask us anything else if it comes up in the future.



Kind regards,

Joshua

Customer Service Department
Kahr Firearms Group"

So, okay, you guys know what's next, I'll update once it's removed, set on a flat surface, mirror polished, yada, yada, yada...
If you look at my past posts, I would consider you as blessed. To this date, I’ve contacted Kahr 4 or 5 times, mind you that they were via email, but have received one response. Maybe I’m on a S list of theirs due to my openness about my experiences, I don’t know. I know that some will praise a certain company while an equal amount will disparage them. Were it not for the Kahr trigger, it’s slimness to it’s counterparts and my time working on their models (repairs, modifications, trigger time), I’d be the later. Glad you are experiencing some sort of relatively positive customer experience.
The imploding part... early on here, I did as such a few times. Bawanna stepped in with a level head and put things in perspective. I changed my thoughts and approach and have since become a different person here. Sometimes we just need to see/experience things in a different light. I hope your stay here is long, enjoyable and fruitful!

[OMCHamlin]

Yeah, the important part of not "imploding" is realizing you are better off not engaging sometimes. I mean, we seldom actually change someone's mind, people are so polarized at this point, and that just leaves you standing there, shouting at the sky like some enraged, cheated libtard...

As to dealing with Kahr, I just called them and got lucky, I guess. This is the same guy I spoke with a week ago, when I was just going to "overpower" this CW45 with a crapload of new parts.
This guy seems to give a damn, and you have his name now!

[dao]

FWIW I've contacted Kahr quite a few times over the years, always by phone. I've yet to have a bad experience though not every one was extremely helpful. Most have been though. As with all customer service reps if you get a bad one, get through the call and then call back at a later time or date and hope for a better one.

I'm a mod on a motorcycle board and have had to deal with a number of imploding members. The Colonel and Gary do a fine job here, and while there have been some spirited discussions (and members), for the most part this is a very welcoming and relaxing place to spend time. And there are ALWAYS helpful people here. Which is why I'm approaching 1K posts. I frequent a pretty good number of boards like this but other than the motorcycle board this is the only other one that I've posted so much on. I like spending time here.

[Bawanna]

It's Greg buddy, not Gary. And he's a huge asset to us. Bailed me out on problems a million times.

We had a lot of huge implosions in the early days, a few times we'd have to pass the reins and take a break.

Been really peaceful for quite a spell now days.

[DavidR]

It's Greg buddy, not Gary. And he's a huge asset to us. Bailed me out on problems a million times.

We had a lot of huge implosions in the early days, a few times we'd have to pass the reins and take a break.

Been really peaceful for quite a spell now days.

Are you saying it’s about time for an “Is 380 adequate for self defense” thread?

[BirdsThaWord]

Are you saying it’s about time for an “Is 380 adequate for self defense” thread?
18770

[OMCHamlin]

Are you saying it’s about time for an “Is 380 adequate for self defense” thread?

Oh, I can answer that, and at least SOME will agree; When you're carrying it in a pocket holster or a little snap on holster on your belt and it's barely noticeable? ABSOLUTELY!
When you're skinning it in a back parking lot at 10:47 at night? Or a "quasi" feral pit is quietly closing in on your 6 and you've just turned your head and saw him? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I could not imagine NOT wishing I had... well, for instance, my CW45 or my Gen 3 G32c... Or a BAR and a guy behind me with bags full of magazines. And 6-7 other guys. And a flame thrower...

[dao]

It's Greg buddy, not Gary. And he's a huge asset to us. Bailed me out on problems a million times.

We had a lot of huge implosions in the early days, a few times we'd have to pass the reins and take a break.

Been really peaceful for quite a spell now days.

Of course it is. He's helped me a few times too. Senior moment. Sorry Greg

Oh, and 11 or 13 rounds of .380 to the torso would ruin anybody's day :D

[DavidR]

Of course it is. He's helped me a few times too. Senior moment. Sorry Greg

Oh, and 11 or 13 rounds of .380 to the torso would ruin anybody's day :D

I’m kind of hoping 2 or 3 will be enough [emoji15]

[Bawanna]

Yeah, the important part of not "imploding" is realizing you are better off not engaging sometimes. I mean, we seldom actually change someone's mind, people are so polarized at this point, and that just leaves you standing there, shouting at the sky like some enraged, cheated libtard...

As to dealing with Kahr, I just called them and got lucky, I guess. This is the same guy I spoke with a week ago, when I was just going to "overpower" this CW45 with a crapload of new parts.
This guy seems to give a damn, and you have his name now!

Sometimes one has to engage because everyone else on the forum is so sick and tired of listening the garbage printed out of the persons keyboard. Different opinions are fine generally and makes good discussion. In a few instances my PM box fills with people telling me to get rid of this idiot and I really want to myself but if they don't cross lines just ain't right, but on toe over and it's off to the Glock forum for them.

Oh and 45 because shooting twice is just silly.

[OMCHamlin]

...Oh and 45 because shooting twice is just silly. LOL! That's hard to agrue with...

Well, disassembled, cleaned, "slight" flex and high polish on trigger bar critical areas, clean, reassemble... No joy. < one quarter turn on that little sideplate screw is the difference between "yes" and "no"... I'm ordering a new side plate and screw this instant.

[Bawanna]

I looked back to the beginning and only found that you've had this gun a long time. Never mentioned if it was new or used when you got it, but for our purposes it doesn't really matter. Went in to the safe fine, came out problematic.

I wondered if somewhere in it's life somebody pried that slide plate off with a claw hammer or something and removed some of the tupperware that keeps it at the proper position. When you turn that 1/4 turn too much does the plate still look flush or riding low on the frame.

For what extremely tiny little bit it's worth, I'd do exactly what your doing and order the new side plate and screw, if nothing else you'll have a spare screw until your wife finds the one you lost on the new floor.

This is just baffling to me, was hoping Greg would log in and see this. He's probably the smartest man alive on gun stuff I know except maybe John Moses Browning and I never met him personally, course I never met Greg personally neither but guess I'm drifting.

Ok off to the wood pile for me, start filling the wood shed for the next winter if I don't cross the river before hand. Guess the wife needs to stay warm anyhow.

[jeepster09]

REAL guns shoot 45 and REAL dogs are German Shepherds.....'nuff said

[Bawanna]

Hey OMC, could you send Kristi over, I'm playing hide and seek. Years ago I bought a Browning Hi Power mostly cause it came with 8 mags. I know I gave at least 2 away so I should have at least 5 or 6. I can only find 1!!!! Been searching on and off all day. I ordered two for my Springfield SA35 if it ever shows up and they arrived today so I got 3. They do interchange with the HI Power.

This kind of thing drives me buggy. I generally know where everything I own is. Guess when I rearrange to better use the too little space it mess's me up. The search continues.

[OMCHamlin]

I looked back to the beginning and only found that you've had this gun a long time. Never mentioned if it was new or used when you got it, but for our purposes it doesn't really matter. Went in to the safe fine, came out problematic.

I wondered if somewhere in it's life somebody pried that slide plate off with a claw hammer or something and removed some of the tupperware that keeps it at the proper position. When you turn that 1/4 turn too much does the plate still look flush or riding low on the frame.

For what extremely tiny little bit it's worth, I'd do exactly what your doing and order the new side plate and screw, if nothing else you'll have a spare screw until your wife finds the one you lost on the new floor.


Nope, new from day one, I'd guess close to a decade + old. It has been a safe queen, except that I carried it for a few months during the "pandemic" while I was tending the gun counter at the local hardware store when I lived in Virginia. It's never been a subject for "playing around with" or "improving", like many of my 1911s or S&W revolvers (or even Glocks, for that matter), it's been a buy it, put night sights on it, pick up a couple holsters and spare mags, shoot it once in a while, clean it and back in the safe. It was not a gun that NEEDED improving, frankly. I DID seem to recall reading somewhere that these could benefit from a new recoil spring once in a great while, so I did that last year, I was amazed at how stout the new recoil spring was, so much that I called Kahr and confirmed by part number it was correct.

I do not recall ever removing the side plate prior to this, but I might have (I don't think so though). Screwed down snug, it does not look wrong, or too low, it looks fine. I kind of insist though that a screw like this should be as snug as possible without having the threads "yield", and was aware that I was going into plastic, so I used that "just right" torque spec, the one that came right outta my a... well, you know...

I think I'm doing the right thing, I "sprung" for a trigger bar as well, I mean we're talking $27 including shipping (which was in fact MOST of the cost.)

Finally, another plug for their phone support, it is near some of the best I've ever experienced...
As a point of fact, I need to convey that to Kahr, they need to know they have a least one guy that cares.

[jeepster09]

It's kind of like working on car these days.....25 minutes to find tool in my garage and 10 minutes to use it.

[OMCHamlin]

Hey OMC, could you send Kristi over, I'm playing hide and seek. Years ago I bought a Browning Hi Power mostly cause it came with 8 mags. I know I gave at least 2 away so I should have at least 5 or 6. I can only find 1!!!! Been searching on and off all day. I ordered two for my Springfield SA35 if it ever shows up and they arrived today so I got 3. They do interchange with the HI Power.

This kind of thing drives me buggy. I generally know where everything I own is. Guess when I rearrange to better use the too little space it mess's me up. The search continues.

No way, bro, she is a finder of LOST stuff, not MISPLACED stuff... Besides, what the hell happens if I lose something while she's gone?
Edit to add; I also have a Hi Power, ever heard of a GP Comp? The pic is not of my GP Comp, but it's the same - the Goodyears (which I still have), I swapped out for a set of Navidrex rosewood checkered palm swell grips on it, along with a C&S safety and an old Pachmayr extended slide stop on mine. It points like no other pistol I've ever held, and hits right there...
18773

[OMCHamlin]

REAL guns shoot 45 and REAL dogs are German Shepherds.....'nuff said

I read partway down your ad, and was getting ready to talk to Mrs. OMC about the possibility. Fortunately, I made it to the bottom first...
He needs a playmate;

https://i.imgur.com/w6z0mBd.jpg?3

[Bawanna]

Whats the difference between lost and misplaced? If you lost something it wouldn't be for long, I'd just keep her long enough to find my mags and send her home again. I got a wife already and lord knows one female in the household is more than enough. I know, I know I'm going the hell for saying something like that.

We had a collie like that for awhile. Heard they ran off a lot, people we got her from said naw, they never run off. I spent more time looking for that dog. I finally had to give her to my mom who had a fenced yard. We were on 10 acres at the time but no fence and she thought she was Lassie or something, always running off to save the world or something.
Great dog, just didn't like to stay home.

[OMCHamlin]

I "lost" my front sight screw at the range in the grass, I "misplaced" my front sight in a parts drawer in my gun room where I think I stored it while I was waiting on the wife to find my front sight screw in the grass at the range... :p

And yeah, he's in the fenced yard or walked on a leash, he's a "pretty boy". NOT a "genius"...

[Bawanna]

So does this mean she's not coming? I'm slow on the uptake sometimes ya know. Probably slightly lower IQ than your Collie.

[OMCHamlin]

So does this mean she's not coming? I'm slow on the uptake sometimes ya know. Probably slightly lower IQ than your Collie.

Oh FINE! I'll send her out once we get all unpacked and all the pictures hung and dusted and all that stuff from the move. Almost guaranteed to show up some time in this decade, fair enough??? Let us know in the meantime if you stumble across the BHP mags.
Did I add that she's a fine cook as well? Hell, nevermind, if you saw the pic of us together, you can figure that out on your own...

[BirdsThaWord]

I use those same torque specs on everything!
The Collie and the Shep puppy... I’d love to have either one of those.

[OMCHamlin]

Well, The new parts showed up today. I think I see the problem... (apologies, the most important area is somewhat blurred in each picture, at least on the original side plate)

1880818809

And no, I do not know how the back ledge portion of the original side plate got thinner around it's border, but damned if it ain't. The crude polishing marks on the interior or recessed portions of the side plate were my doing, but prior to that, the area had some very clear rub marks in the lower rear section and in the lower middle section of the plate. The new plate was test fitted with the old trigger bar in place, and there is no issue as far as I can tell. I'm strongly considering not replacing the trigger bar, but I'll live fire op-test tomorrow and report findings.
Does anyone think I should go ahead and replace the trigger bar anyway, since it's here? I can be swayed with reason, just saying...

[Bawanna]

I'm a firm believer in if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If there are no issues and it does well with live fire, call it a win.

I'm still at a total loss how there could be scuff marks so low on that side plate. Trigger bar almost had to be off the track and hanging down in which case it wouldn't work at all. This has been a real mystery.

[OMCHamlin]

I'm a firm believer in if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If there are no issues and it does well with live fire, call it a win.

I'm still at a total loss how there could be scuff marks so low on that side plate. Trigger bar almost had to be off the track and hanging down in which case it wouldn't work at all. This has been a real mystery.

I know what you are saying, but look at the raised ledge around the rear portion of both side plates. The thickness of that ledge plays a huge part on the clearance involved between the interior recessed portion of the side plate and the trigger bar and is noticeably thinner on the old part, allowing for less clearance and almost has to impact trigger bar drag against that plate. And like I said, I have no idea why the old part looks like it does. I wonder if it was a poorly molded part?

[BirdsThaWord]

I wonder if it was a poorly molded part?
I’m going with that for two reasons...
1. Being thinner, you were able to tighten that screw to the point that the plate contacted the trigger bar, hence the wear.
2. When you loosened that screw, you said it came alive, affirming #1, as that plate now moved away from the trigger bar.

[yqtszhj]

. I got a wife already and lord knows one female in the household is more than enough.



Amen brother. That’s all I’ll say about that. :behindsofa:

[OMCHamlin]

I’m going with that for two reasons...
1. Being thinner, you were able to tighten that screw to the point that the plate contacted the trigger bar, hence the wear.
2. When you loosened that screw, you said it came alive, affirming #1, as that plate now moved away from the trigger bar.

Here's what gets me though; it didn't do that before, so what changed? What pushed that set of tolerances over the line from "works every day, load it, holster it and count on it" to "WTF?"

[dao]

I can't help but think that the trigger bar is somehow misaligned. Something has started rubbing on the backside of that frame cover. By chance did you ever put the slide on and then notice that the hump in the top rear of the trigger bar was sitting outside the frame? But....even if it happened and you didn't notice it, it could have deformed that bar somewhat.
Is the cocking cam pivot pin seated correctly on both ends?

[Bawanna]

Here's what gets me though; it didn't do that before, so what changed? What pushed that set of tolerances over the line from "works every day, load it, holster it and count on it" to "WTF?"

Precisely this weedhopper. I agree that the old part was probably poorly molded but why did it work without issue and then suddenly not. Unless as Dao mentioned sometime after coming out of the safe the trigger bar got out of position. Maybe it's not even deformed but just out, although it shouldn't work if that was the case either.
We should turn this into a soap opera. Get out and shoot the thing and see what's what.
Fingers crossed for ya.

[OMCHamlin]

I can't help but think that the trigger bar is somehow misaligned. Something has started rubbing on the backside of that frame cover. By chance did you ever put the slide on and then notice that the hump in the top rear of the trigger bar was sitting outside the frame? But....even if it happened and you didn't notice it, it could have deformed that bar somewhat.
Is the cocking cam pivot pin seated correctly on both ends?

By chance did you ever put the slide on and then notice that the hump in the top rear of the trigger bar was sitting outside the frame? No, never.

Is the cocking cam pivot pin seated correctly on both ends? Yes (At least I think so seems like you would notice that when the gun is field stripped?)

About the trigger bar; As I said, I polished it, with special attention to a micro burr on the top of the disconnect lobe. While removed, I inspected it, but it is a series of steps and bends so it was difficult to tell, but it seemed straight. OF SPECIAL NOTE: When I was swapping side plates last evening, I had the slide off, and the plate off and I thought to press in on the rearmost portion of the trigger bar, and there was some very slight inward movement, which, when released, returned to it's normal position. When I say slight, I mean "SLIGHT", I thought to myself "well, that seems to be not extreme, it's probably going to have some slight movement" I don't think that's a contributing issue.

Oh, and here are the pics I took of the original (and still installed) trigger bar;
188131881518816

[OMCHamlin]

Precisely this weedhopper....
...We should turn this into a soap opera. Get out and shoot the thing and see what's what.
Fingers crossed for ya.

"Kahrs of our lives"?, "As the side plate turns"?

Yes to the last item, going to go grab some 45 acp right now (out of the AA&E locker, I don't NEED to go BUY some damn 45 ammo!)

[dao]

By chance did you ever put the slide on and then notice that the hump in the top rear of the trigger bar was sitting outside the frame? No, never. Meant to say outside of the slide. When I did that to one of my P380's if I hadn't been looking I might not have noticed it until I tried to fire the gun, and I'm fairly certain I would have had a dead trigger. But I did notice it and pulled the slide off right away and righted it. It was used when I bought it so I'm not sure what caused it. I never did have any problems with it but then I don't think I put more than 25rds through it before trading it.

Is the cocking cam pivot pin seated correctly on both ends? Yes (At least I think so seems like you would notice that when the gun is field stripped?) Not necessarily. Say for instance it is off by 1/16" on the left side. That could/would equate to a slightly larger amount on the right side. I'm not intimately familiar with the innards of that part of a Kahr, but if the triggerbar is riding on or against either the cocking cam or the right end of pivot pin, if the bar was out by as little as 1/16" it could put it in a bind against the cover plate, no?

About the trigger bar; As I said, I polished it, with special attention to a micro burr on the top of the disconnect lobe. While removed, I inspected it, but it is a series of steps and bends so it was difficult to tell, but it seemed straight. OF SPECIAL NOTE: When I was swapping side plates last evening, I had the slide off, and the plate off and I thought to press in on the rearmost portion of the trigger bar, and there was some very slight inward movement, which, when released, returned to it's normal position. When I say slight, I mean "SLIGHT", I thought to myself "well, that seems to be not extreme, it's probably going to have some slight movement" I don't think that's a contributing issue.

Oh, and here are the pics I took of the original (and still installed) trigger bar;
188131881518816

I'm not trying to belabor a point OM, but something is out of whack and I guess we're all trying to hazard a guess or guesses as to what that might be. After you felt that slight movement did the trigger work as it should?

[OMCHamlin]

Okay, live fire complete. 3 Kahr mags, one of those an extended "+1" base, and a Metalform standard 1911 7 rd. The Metalform is a non-starter in this gun, and since I have 5 Kahr mags, it won't matter, but it was worth a try. The Kahr +1 mag gave some failure to feed stoppages, but it was with ammo I don't normally carry in this gun(PMC 185 JHPs). I usually run Rem Golden Sabres and they have been flawless, I'll have to dig some up and re-test that mag.
Question though: which Officer's model mags (if any) have proven to be the most usable mags in a Kahr CW45 size auto?

[dao]

So is your trigger working as it should consistently now? Sounds like it.

[Scott321]

Probably not what you want to hear, but it's my understanding that the Kahr 45 chambers are tight and might not feed certain ammo well (if at all). For example, none of my Kahr 45's will reliably chamber the two Corbon loads I tried (+P 185 and +P 230)... too tight (PM45, CW45, TP45). I might suggest taking the barrel out and doing a plunk test on ammo you are planning on using. I've had no issue with Speer GD SB 230gr, Rem 185gr +P GS, WWB JHP 230gr, Federal HST 230gr, and whatever FMJ range stuff available at the time.

[OMCHamlin]

So is your trigger working as it should consistently now? Sounds like it.
It is! Wonderfully so! As far as the trigger bar and a dead trigger goes, I believe that is in the rear view mirror.

Now, as to a couple of feed issues, first off; no more "1911" mags for me, I don't need them, and they have a pair of 1911s to all play in happily. I have 5 Kahr factory mags for this thing, 2 7 rd extended & 3 regular 6 rd'ers, as to the odd malfunctions with the PMC, well, that's fine, I'll retest with my "normal" CW45 load, Rem Golden Sabres, and if all is well, I'm done. The rounds got stuck on the feed ramp, so the never made it into the chamber, the type of malfunction was the same on all 2 or 3 malfunctions, and with that one 7 rd mag. I will plunk test some of that Rem GS along with those PMCs I had at the same time.

[dao]

Glad to hear that Gremlin is behind you! I sure wish we knew what caused it.

Kahr does sell mag springs (you probably know this), and they're quite reasonable. If you're interested, click here (https://shopkahrfirearmsgroup.com/pistol-parts/kahr-036cm45-magazine-spring-036p45.asp)

[OMCHamlin]

Glad to hear that Gremlin is behind you! I sure wish we knew what caused it.

Kahr does sell mag springs (you probably know this), and they're quite reasonable. If you're interested, click here (https://shopkahrfirearmsgroup.com/pistol-parts/kahr-036cm45-magazine-spring-036p45.asp)


12.99 + shipping??? Yeahhhhh, they look an awful lot like 1911 mag springs to me, which I am well stocked up on, I'll try one or two various types on hand first.

I wish I knew (for sure) what caused it to cross the line from working to not working, but the path has given me a greater knowledge of the inner workings of a Kahr 45, and I've met a few decent folk, and finally, if I don't know for sure what caused it, at least I know what fixed it...

[dao]

Kahr USPS shipping for most things is $7.70 for a cart up $100. I usually try to buy enough to make it more cost efficient than buying one thing at a time.

I agree, better to know the fix than the cause, most of the time.

[Bawanna]

You can also check with Wolff, they make the springs for Kahr, I don't know if they sell mag springs but everything else they do. I've never replaced a mag spring in my live for my own guns, never felt the need.

[dao]

I don't usually either Colonel, except when I seem to have one that doesn't feed well and/or is of unknown past use. I recently bought a ten pack of Sig P239 springs from Wolff that I used on a bunch of mags that I had installed a Galloway +1 extension on, and some others that I bought well used.