Return of the CT380

[DavidR]

A couple of years ago I lent my CT380 to my son and daughter in law to see if she might like it for carry. Neither of them ended up carrying it so I recently got it back from them and took it to the range last week.

Man! I forgot how nice this gun is. Smooth shooter with much less recoil than my LCP Max. I shot it much better than my Max.

Gave it a thorough cleaning and been carrying it at 1:00 in a Vedder Light Tuck.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220328/49450a2a5bdd3e80052dbc325296ecd8.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220328/d843f1f10d8db911dced5289071ae414.jpg

[Bawanna]

Looks nice and clean now.

[DavidR]

Looks nice and clean now.

I tend to run my guns a bit on the wet side and while I’ve never lubed the striker channel it was wet with dirty oil. I think it was probably CLP getting in through the hole in the breech face when I’m cleaning the breech face and extractor. I plan to be more careful with future cleanings.

[Ralph III]

....Man! I forgot how nice this gun is. Smooth shooter with much less recoil than my LCP Max. I shot it much better than my Max....

Hey David,
I'm looking to get my wife a ccw weapon and this is exactly the details I have been looking for! My wife is recoil sensitive and she prefers something small. The Ruger LCP Max seemed to be the perfect fit with the exception of possible recoil. So I had decided to get her the Ruger LCP II .22 instead for the time being. I would then move her up to the LCP Max .380 later.

I had considered the Kahr CT380 for her as well. However, the Ruger LCP Max with the 12rd magazine would be slightly heavier than the CT380 and that should have correlated with slightly less recoil.

1. So you feel the CT380 actually has less recoil? How much of a difference is it and how can this be?
2. Do you have any idea what the recoil of the CT380 would be compared to my S9? My S9 has a little to much recoil for my wife and that is what I have been trying to gauge things by. So taking into consideration the smaller size and weight of the CT380 I assumed it would have about the same amount of recoil as my S9?

Anyhow, is the CT380 really all that great shooting with a manageable recoil? If so, I'll get that for her instead which I'd prefer to do anyhow.

Ralph

[DavidR]

Hi Ralph -

I should have used the term “felt recoil”. The actual recoil impulse could be less with the Max but it feels like more to me. I attribute it to maybe 3 reasons:

1. I get a better grip on the CT even when using the 12 round mag in the Max. I get a full 3 finger grip on the CT while the Max is more like two and a half. I have a thin Tuff1 grip sleeve on the CT and a Talon Grip on the Max.

2. The stock recoil spring in the Max is weak (9 lbs) so that absorbs less of the recoil. I changed the Max recoil spring to a 13 lb spring and that helped a bit but I still feel less recoil with the CT.

3. The polymer grip frame on the CT is thicker than the Max, possibly absorbing more recoil.

[BirdsThaWord]

Possibly the barrel sitting relatively lower in the Kahr vs the Max may be another reason.

[Ralph III]

Thanks David and BirdsThaWord!

So does the Kahr indeed have a lower bore axis than the Ruger LCP Max because that would be a definite advantage with felt recoil. Another factor could be with the slightly longer barrel and possibly longer recoil spring as well. The pressures are distributed over a greater length and time, so this would also help with felt recoil.

David if you can elaborate on this a little that would be appreciated or how it may compare to my S9.

God Bless,
Ralph

[BirdsThaWord]

Certainly!
In this article (American Rifleman magazine), Kahr’s lower bore axis is mentioned a few times, as well as the effect it has on felt recoil and “muzzle flip”.
https://www.kahr.com/PDF/AR-0218.pdf
But, being that David has both guns you are considering, I think he would be able to better tell you anything when comparing between the two.

[dao]

The biggest obstacle to a Kahr for use by most women, and some men, is the difficulty in racking the slide. Kahrs with only a few exceptions require a fair amount of strength in order to cycle the gun manually. My wife shoots my PM9 very well, and does not mind the recoil at all. She's a small woman too though she works hard all day long. But she just cannot manipulate the slide so that's the deal killer for her. And given that they are not second strike capable this is an important factor in choice for a self-defense weapon. Afterall they are not big or heavy enough to wield as a club shoot there be a misfire that results in them being inoperable as a gun.

[Bawanna]

^^^^This right here. That tough to rack slide is a deal breaker for most women and many men as well.
I recently helped an old neighbor with his Taurus G2? It's slightly larger but the slide was easy to rack, still too much for my wife, I just don't think she tries hard enough as she's a hard worker and strong too.
I'm not a Taurus fan but this one and the newer G3's and 4's kind of impressed me. They have second strike capability.
I did not shoot it but he has Parkinsons? something where he's rather weak and shakes pretty bad. He said it was very comfortable to shoot.
The 22 is a smart option at least for a start. And never down play the good ole reliable revolver. My wife carries a Smith 638. Only 5 shots but she's not known for looking for a gun fight

[DavidR]

Ralph - it’s been a while since I’ve fired my P9 and I don’t ever recall shooting it side by side with the CT380. With that caveat, I feel like the 380 has less felt recoil than the 9mm.

I wish you could find one to shoot. I’d hate for you to buy a gun based on my perception of felt recoil.

[Ralph III]

Ralph - it’s been a while since I’ve fired my P9 and I don’t ever recall shooting it side by side with the CT380. With that caveat, I feel like the 380 has less felt recoil than the 9mm.

I wish you could find one to shoot. I’d hate for you to buy a gun based on my perception of felt recoil.

No problem David and yes I wish we had some gun ranges with rental guns. We just really do not however. I'm researching and researching in an attempt to get other reviews as well though. The CT-380 is thin enough that a hogue grip could be added and that would also help with felt recoil. The LCP Max is wider, so I don't see adding an over-grip to it as being viable. Anyhow, if it doesn't work out I'll sell it and move on.

Ralph

[Bawanna]

I'm kind of a broken record and set in my ways but I'd stick to a 9 if at all possible or go to a revolver.
At first she might be intimidated but shouldn't take long at all to acclimate to the 9. No reason to provide her a defensive weapon with an inferior caliber. I think if recoil is so important I'd stick with the 22 over the 380.

[DavidR]

I smell a caliber war brewing.

[Bawanna]

I'm a lover not a fighter! But I don't agree with the concept of providing women with tiny little guns because they don't like recoil. They are already at a disadvantage as most/many don't practice much, most many lack the killer mindset, so the gun is like a talisman. Comforting that they have it although again most carry in a purse and leave the purse in the car.
There are of course exceptions and women are generally naturally better shooters as there's no pressure to do well.
Course now days I guess if a guy shoots poorly he can identify as I'm just a girl......????

[DavidR]

And so I totally agree with you on this. Little 380s like the LCP have a lot of recoil and are hard to shoot. Usually not a good choice for someone recoil sensitive.

A 9mm-sized locked breech 380 like the Smith and Wesson 380EZ or even the Sig P365 in 380 are better choices for someone sensitive to recoil as they will have significantly less recoil than their 9mm counterparts or an LCP.

[Bawanna]

Maybe take them to the range with a 40 and then they would really appreciate the mild recoil of the 9. I wouldn't suggest a 45 as they would no doubt be surprised and like it and you'll find yourself getting them a 45. Don't go there. They might hurt somebody.

[getsome]

The one and only time my wife, who hates guns went shooting with me was because our out of town daughter was here for Christmas and for some reason the kids wanted to go shooting so I packed up a .22 Ruger and a 4” S&W 586 revolver and a M&P full size 9mm and when it came the wife’s turn to shoot I loaded up the 586 with target .38 special loads and showed her how to hold it and cock the revolver single action and stood back and I’ll be damned if she didn’t kill it and shot very well……I figured 2 or 3 rounds would be enough but she liked it and made me reload several times and she was just drilling a target at 10 yards…….She still has no interest in shooting or CCW but the fact that she took to a revolver so well tells me that perhaps a small .380 or 9mm isn’t always the best choice for a women that wants a pistol for protection but is not interested in doing range time and learning to correct jams in a small semi auto…….IMHO the best firearm for a female novice shooter is a small .38 special revolver with a hammer because it’s simple, reliable and effective and with standard pressure good ammo the recoil isn’t a problem…..

[DavidR]

Maybe, but an L frame revolver isn’t exactly a ccw piece. A smaller J frame size revolver has exponentially more felt recoil than that L frame.

[BirdsThaWord]

A j frame in 32 is a soft shooter. Might get you into the ammo debate, but is "simple" as getsome outlined, without being "scary" to a first timer. Were I to consider one, it would be loaded with jacketed, non hollow points. No concern about cloggingng up the point with clothing to effect expansion. Just a focus on penrtration. Same reason I load my LCP with high velocity 22's that are not hollow points, or sometimes a little 380, with non hollow point loads.

[DavidR]

Agree. 32 revolver may be the best combination of compromises. Simple to operate, small enough to carry and low recoil. And it’s way better than a sharp stick.

[Armybrat]

My CT380 with 7 rounds weighs in at 15 ounces.
The Ruger LCP Max with 10 rounds comes in at 14 ounces.
Kinda surprised me.
The CT is a soft shooter, but I haven’t fired the Ruger yet to compare. The CT feels better in the hand because of the longer grip, however is much harder for my creaky hands to rack.

[getsome]

I bought a Ruger LCR in .327 Federal Magnum back when Covid was getting bad…….I had gone to my LGS looking for 9mm ammo but they didn’t have anything in 9 or .45 and most everything else was also gone so as usual I was a day late and several dollars short but I noticed they had a shelf full of .327 mag and .32 H&R mag because nobody really shoots it so I decided right then to buy the little .32 LCR hammerless revolver and a box of .327 mag and .32 H&R mag for no other reason than I figured get it while you can…..

Well after shooting a few .327 Federals through it which was very much like .357 in a J frame and not much fun at all I decided to stick to H&R .32 mags which are sweet shooting and pretty accurate from such a small gun…….327 Federal Mag is one of those calibers that like .41 mag just didn’t catch on and sell in numbers to keep it in production which is a shame because both are excellent shooters and .327 Federal in K frame size revolver would be super nice….. My little Ruger rides in my work bag and while I wish it had an exposed hammer so single action could be used I bought the only one they had mainly because it was the only ammo available at the time……The caliber is very versatile and anything .32 caliber will shoot in it, even .32 acp is said to work in it but I’ve never tried it but being a six shooter I keep 4 H&R mags and 2 .327 Federals in the line up in case the first 4 didn’t solve the issue……It’s about a butt ugly little gun but I feel better knowing it’s in my bag, just in case……..

[Armybrat]

That’s as good a reason as any to buy it.
I have 700 rounds of American Eagle .327 and 400 of S&W .32 long for my two rugers (Sp101 & Single Seven), all bought before the pandemic, but never have been able to find any .32 H&R magnums.

[dao]

Nice looking six shooters that AB

[Bawanna]

A j frame in 32 is a soft shooter. Might get you into the ammo debate, but is "simple" as getsome outlined, without being "scary" to a first timer. Were I to consider one, it would be loaded with jacketed, non hollow points. No concern about cloggingng up the point with clothing to effect expansion. Just a focus on penrtration. Same reason I load my LCP with high velocity 22's that are not hollow points, or sometimes a little 380, with non hollow point loads.

Many do the same with 9's. FMJ or solid points to get penetration.

[DavidR]

I carry Phillips head rounds in my 380s.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220403/d65874e9983f2b262428693c4cb830f1.jpg

[Bawanna]

Looks like two # 3's, 1 # 2, and 1 # 1. Got all the screws covered. Well done.
I have to admit I would not enjoy getting hit with any of those, would definitely hurt and for sure leave a mark.

[getsome]

I carry Phillips head rounds in my 380s.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220403/d65874e9983f2b262428693c4cb830f1.jpg

I bought a couple boxes of Underwood Xtreme Defender .380 and 9mm at a gun show a few years back mainly because they looked cool and are said to perform great and I was on my way out and hadn’t bought anything yet so I picked them up and stuck them in the ammo closet but I’ve never tried either one yet mainly because of the cost but I wonder how they would feed with that sharp bullet point…….My Pico .380 has worked fine with anything I’ve ever fed it as well as the PM9 which has never had any ammo issues and those solid copper, light for caliber bullets look fantastic in gel testing but I still wonder how they would feed……….

[DavidR]

All four of those feed perfectly through my LCP and my LCP Max.

My CT380 is a little pickier. The original Xtreme Penetrator on the far left is a no go. The Black Hills Xtreme Defense on the far right had one feed failure out of 20 rounds so it’s a no go too. The two in the middle (current versions of the Lehigh or Underwood Penetrator and Defense) feed fine. Those are what I carry in the CT.

I don’t necessarily buy into the hype but I feel like these will make a ragged caliber sized hole in whatever they hit.

[getsome]

That’s good to know, I carry my Pico .380 so little and only on those suit and tie funeral or wedding days when I can’t carry anything else but I feel adequately armed with it and after redneck testing various self defense .380 ammo brands in wet newspaper I always see at least 11” of penetration and a nasty looking hole so it should stop a bad guy if hit in any vital area……Would I rather have more than a .380 if there was an issue, well yes but would I want to be shot with a .380 round, well that would be a definite no…….

[Ralph III]

I actually looked at a Ruger LCP Max this evening and a great looking and feeling gun. Does the 13# Galloway recoil spring make the slide much harder to rack over the stock spring?

Ralph

[BirdsThaWord]

Nice wheel guns there Army! Good thing you stocked up before ammo got meme’d!
David, that’s the first time I’ve seen the Phillips head stuff. You’ve introduced me to something new!

[DavidR]

I actually looked at a Ruger LCP Max this evening and a great looking and feeling gun. Does the 13# Galloway recoil spring make the slide much harder to rack over the stock spring?

Ralph

It does make it a bit harder to rack. I put 25 rounds through the Max with the new recoil spring and it loosened up a lot, which surprised me.

With either recoil spring, the Max is easier to rack than my LCP Gen 2 or CT380.

[DavidR]

David, that’s the first time I’ve seen the Phillips head stuff. You’ve introduced me to something new!

The bullets are made by Lehigh Defense. I think Underwood is the only one making the cartridge right now.