Kydex Avenger Style Holster?

[kilogulf59]

Does anyone know of someone who makes a kydex, OWB, zero or neutral cant, Avenger style, i.e. belt loop and trailing-slot style, holster? That’s including the slide or scabbard types. I cannot seem to find one. For any pistols, not just Kahr?


As an example, here's Galco's Avenger scabbard and Don Hume's JIT belt slide.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/iccf/download/file.php?id=1202

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/iccf/download/file.php?id=1203

[berettabone]

You could try Muddy River Tactical............no stick in the fire and no guarantees....................
................

[Bawanna]

I've never seen one myself. I think the kydex being stiff enough they probably don't figure it needs the trailing loop although it would add stability.

[kilogulf59]

I'll nosy around Muddy River Tactical, berettabone, and see what they have. Thanks.

Bawanna, I'm under the impression that the belt loop and trailing-slot design was not only for stability, but also to somewhat pull in the butt of the pistol.

Interestingly, Col. Charles Askins Jr. didn't invent the holster style. IIRC, Bruce Nelson did, but I could be wrong. He may have been working for Milt Sparks at the time. John Bianchi's version was developed with input from the Colonel. Thus his name being added to the design, of course, marketing had nothing to do with it ;). The Nelson's original version and Bianchi's both had, what is erroneously called, an FBI cant. Bianchi's added a rather unique, detachable, thumb strap, which hooked over the hammer. This was the Colonel's idea for sure. I may have some of this mixed up because it was many, many, moons ago (70s?) that I last read up on it, so don't quote me. I do know for a fact that it was developed for the 1911 pistol and with concealed carry in mind.

[berettabone]

I use the JIT holster for my revolver. Really like the style, the closeness to the body, and you have a full grip when drawing. Been using one for years. I can see why you like the design. I don't think I'd like it in kydex though. Maybe you could try a Yaqui type of slide holster. I use one for my semi auto and like that design also, and they're cheap enough if it doesn't fit your needs.

[kilogulf59]

I hear ya, the JIT was my holster for my .38 snub for years, also for my PPK/s. I remember when the Yaqui Slide was all the rage in the 70s due to Jeff Cooper. I was carrying my Colt Government Model then and though abut one but it made me nervous.

[Bawanna]

I never much cared for the Yaqui Slide myself, just didn't like so much of the gun exposed and worried about the front sight hanging up on the holster on the way out. I like my guns and wanted them a little more protected.

[kilogulf59]

Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about it, Bawanna. Plus, depending upon the chair, while sitting down the pistol can get pushed up out of the holster. This happened to me, but I felt it occurring, on our lawn/porch chairs. They're not the widest, have arms, and I'm 6'4" and run in the low 230s. It was my E-Gat with my P9. It didn't fall out but started to push up. I've learned to hug the left side more while sitting. At the time, I even thought "how many times does this happen to guys who wear a Yaqui Slide and a 1911?" Like everything else, they'll work well for some, it all depends upon one's circumstances.

[King Rat]

Supposedly this company will build your request. I saw this hybrid holster and like it.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/104849497564706790/

[kilogulf59]

Good morning King Rat. Thanks, I'll contact them and see what they say.

[berettabone]

Maybe it's just me, but I've never had an issue with either type of holster. I've never had a firearm push up out of the holster. You do need to wipe your firearm down more often because of body sweat, but you should be doing that anyway.

[kilogulf59]

Maybe it's just me, but I've never had an issue with either type of holster. I've never had a firearm push up out of the holster. You do need to wipe your firearm down more often because of body sweat, but you should be doing that anyway.
Mine did push up but not out. You did lose me with the body sweat, these are OWB holsters we're talking about or did I miss something (that's very possible, ask my wife).

[King Rat]

I am also looking for more holsters. As I mentioned, I like minimalist OWB. I came across this Alabama holster and it seems like a good Kydex. I have never had luck with OWB kydex, most to not seem to ride close to the body etc. But I think this one needs a good look.

https://i.imgur.com/92ZBwnb.jpg?1

[kilogulf59]

King Rat, this fellow does excellent work, IMO. I was not a kydex guy but I tried one of his OWB holsters and single mag carrier for my Glock 19 and love it. Of course, "We are temporarily closing for maintenance and upgrades! The website will re-open on June 1" However, here's the link anyway. Forged Tec Holsters (https://www.forgedtecholsters.com/#/). BTW, he's a one-man operation and his fit selection is limited. Sadly, he doesn't make any for Kahr pistols currently.

[berettabone]

Mine did push up but not out. You did lose me with the body sweat, these are OWB holsters we're talking about or did I miss something (that's very possible, ask my wife). In the warmer months, I wear a t-shirt over the holster. My revolver has picked up some rust from sweat on the exposed part of the gun.

[kilogulf59]

Oh, okay. I see where you're coming from. One thing I did was to pick up some sleeveless undershirts. Just the cheap, thin, ones, nothing heavy or fancy. These fit very snug to the body. I wear one under my T-shirt. The IWB setup rides against that and it’s very comfortable. I’m not an IWB fan at all. However, in the warm but very humid summers we get up here, IWB allows me an 8-shot 9mm and spare mag instead of a 7-shot .380 in my pocket. Just a suggestion.

[berettabone]

I have carried IWB and AIWB in the past. Didn't like it much. I'm in a state where open carry is legal, which I don't do very often, but OWB is more comfortable, and I really don't worry about any printing. I keep my firearms coated with Renaissance wax. Mainly an issue in the summer. By the way, we live in the same county.

[kilogulf59]

By the way, we live in the same county.Yep, I recall. We need to discuss that privately sometime, neighbor ;).

I agree with you on IWB carry. It seems to be very popular but I have to wonder how many carry IWB every day, all day.

[Bawanna]

Yep, I recall. We need to discuss that privately sometime, neighbor ;).

I agree with you on IWB carry. It seems to be very popular but I have to wonder how many carry IWB every day, all day.

I do every day, every waking moment, any time I'm wearing pants. A commander 1911 in a Garrett Silent Thunder. When I was working the PM45 rode in an ankle holster as I wasn't allowed to wear a gun in the office, so the 1911 went in my safe at the desk and kept the PM45 out of sight. Liabilities once again. I was the armorer with access to 15 Glocks, 20 or so AR's and thousands of rounds of ammo all under my key to issue. First chief had no issue, second chief said I could deal with they guns (my job) or the ammo (also my job) but not both at the same time. He wasn't a good chief.

I used to also hate IWB, just didn't work. But I played with the cant a bit, got pants that fit properly with or without the holster and suddenly it all came together. It's funny though I'd love to carry my full size 5 inchers, especially my Wilson but that extra half inch of barrel makes a world of difference. I'm still playing with it. Being a full time sitter has it's down falls but I'll figure it out.

[berettabone]

Sounds like the Wilson needs a lined shoulder holster. :p

[Bawanna]

I used to wear a shoulder holster all the time but it got to aggravating the muscles in my neck shoulder area. I should maybe try it again,

[kilogulf59]

I do every day, every waking moment, any time I'm wearing pants. A commander 1911 in a Garrett Silent Thunder. When I was working the PM45 rode in an ankle holster as I wasn't allowed to wear a gun in the office, so the 1911 went in my safe at the desk and kept the PM45 out of sight. Liabilities once again. I was the armorer with access to 15 Glocks, 20 or so AR's and thousands of rounds of ammo all under my key to issue. First chief had no issue, second chief said I could deal with they guns (my job) or the ammo (also my job) but not both at the same time. He wasn't a good chief.


I used to also hate IWB, just didn't work. But I played with the cant a bit, got pants that fit properly with or without the holster and suddenly it all came together. It's funny though I'd love to carry my full size 5 inchers, especially my Wilson but that extra half inch of barrel makes a world of difference. I'm still playing with it. Being a full time sitter has it's down falls but I'll figure it out.


Bawanna, I must’ve read your reply at least three times, some of it with my jaw dropped. Please understand that the questions I’m about to ask and any comments I make are strictly from a friendly yet curious perspective. The written word, at least my written word, doesn’t lend itself well to emotion or inflection. Therefore, anything I write is not intended to come off as sarcastic, insulting, or derogatory in any way. Now I forgot what I was going to say...


My case against IWB is just that, the pistol is inside my waistband. No matter what you carry and what you carry it in, you still need to keep your britches up. Snugging up ones belt means pressing the pistol and magazine carrier into ones body. However, as I said above, I found that a thin, tank undershirt between me and the holster helps a lot. IWB has it’s place, works great for some, but it’s not my preferred method of carry.


I don’t know how you do it all day with a full size .45 automatic. (Note, many, many, years ago, back in Chicago, I did use IWB with my .45 Government Model, also with a .38 snub, in soft holsters and not all day.) I can’t imagine anyone carrying a larger, thicker pistol, like a full size Glock, IWB. Additionally, you carry a PM45 in an ankle holster? I cannot imaging carrying my P9, which is somewhat smaller yet close in size, like that. How do you do it? How do you draw?


So, you’re not only a cop but the departments armorer and you can’t be armed in the station, Bawanna? You also can’t have any firearms and ammo out at the same time? (My jaw is dropping again, Bawanna.) I have to admit, I don’t get out much anymore, however that’s a new one on me. “He wasn't a good chief.” you are nothing, sir, if not the master of understatement.


I hear you on cant and trouser size. I wear at three o’clock and I really have to watch the hip bone. My cargo-shorts are a tad on the large size now, so the rig fits in no sweat. Plus I’m using an old 1¾-inch Wilderness Instructors belt, stiff yet flexible and infinitely adjustable. It seems that there is a sweet spot but if I don’t find it IWB is very uncomfortable. As I’ve said, wearing the tank undershirt help also. I also can see where that extra ½-inch would make a difference, especially when seated with IWB.

[Bawanna]

All worthy questions and being new your no doubt not aware of my situation. I wasn't a cop, I was a cop office puke. The reason being I'm in a wheelchair full time following a construction accident about 26 years ago give or take. So mostly I did stuff on the computer, didn't have them when I first volunteered but got them soon after so that was a learning experience. So I volunteered at the dept for 1 year and then they decided to hire me and I spent 22 years there till I retired end of 2019.
I helped with and trained with the officers who fully supported my effort to carry. Being a relatively small dept there were time when there were no armed personnel in the building. But that didn't stop the flow of people who were ticked off about something and wanted to see an officer. Mostly no issue but we had a few instances.
All that little bit being said, sitting full time probably helps in the carry response especially the ankle holster as the leg is just something to hang the holster on, no leg swinging or running etc.
The 45 is actually pretty thin really and with the good kydex/leather lined holster it keeps it open so reholstering with one hand is easy. Yes tightening the belt does pull the pistol into your side but I actually find it comforting but not uncomfortable at all.
I do mean all day. Riding the lawn mower, making sawdust out in the shop, sitting in my recliner in the evening watching MASH, it's there.
I do wear a T shirt or one of them thin wife beater shirts under it all the time with an untucked shirt flannel or silk depending on the weather.

I agree that a bigger gun like the Glocks would be much tougher. We issued 21's (full size 45's) until shortly after I retired and they went back to 9's which is another whole story in itself. I actually issued myself a 21 which I kept at my desk with 3 full mags, don't tell the chief. They actually gave me that Glock when I retired so that was nice. Funny thing I've never shot it, I should probably do that one of these days. It lives in the night stand.

I certainly see where your coming from in that IWB is not your preferred method of carry, as I mentioned it wasn't mine either for many many years until it clicked. I think body build is a factor, some bodies just aren't built for it. To each his own.
For me I'd rather tote a live grenade with the pin pulled in my pocket that pocket carry, if God had meant to carry in the pocket he wouldn't have created holster and Garrett Silent Thunders.
Of course being a full time sitter (not baby) I carry nothing in my pockets. It doesn't stay there.
I'm leaving this morning for the East (right side) of our state to our favorite fishing lake for a week. They got good internet over there now so you probably won't even miss me, but if not be kind to each other.
We haven't had any rabble rousers around here for a long time. I might have to create a new account and stir some crap up just for fun.

[berettabone]

Yep, I recall. We need to discuss that privately sometime, neighbor ;).

I agree with you on IWB carry. It seems to be very popular but I have to wonder how many carry IWB every day, all day. Check your PM's.

[kilogulf59]

No Bawanna, I was not aware of your situation and I’m sorry to hear about it. I also don’t blame you for being constantly armed either. There’s one on me or near me at all times, even living here in the sticks. Ya just never know. We actually have all our doors and windows locked as well. You can take people out of the city but you can’t take the city out of people.

Any-who, my comments are based upon me and my reality. Furthermore, they’re based upon my experience, instruction, and what spins my propeller. So, I’m not saying what’s right or wrong for anyone...but me. I should also mention that I am a very casual dresser and like my comfort. When I’m home, it’s sweats in the winter and jersey shorts and a tee shirt in the summer. Going out it’s jeans and a hoodie or cargo shorts and a tee shirt, weather depending. So I can be a bit persnickety on what I carry and how I carry it.

Your chief was a fool Bawanna, and I’m sure something legal could’ve been figured out. Unless the station was set up like a big city currency exchange, it only makes sense to have someone there armed at all times. Well, you’re retired now so that’s water under the bridge.

Bawanna, I can see your point regarding the ankle holster as well. My main problem with them was access. My normal, everyday, home and work trousers are straight leg dungarees. They have been all my life. Those don’t lend themselves well to ankle carry. With the proper pants, especially if seated a lot, I can see it. Different strokes for different folks and situations.

Funny you calling them “wife beater shirts”. When I was young, back in the city almost everyone called them “Dago-tees”. I didn’t even know they had a proper name until a few years back.

I think IWB with a Glock would be painful, at least for me. A double-stack Glock that is (I never thought they’d get on the single stack wagon). The G30 I have is a mitt full and my G19’s no slim-Jim either. Auto-wise, I grew up on, what we all refer nowadays as, 1911s. Also, Browning Hi-Powers, which I love, and many other, mainly single column magazine, pistols. Except for the BHP, these were fairly thin (or flat) weapons. For some reason, even the BHP doesn’t seem hard to conceal but, IMO, it’s not deal for IWB.

A G21 makes a nice retirement gift. I’m not a Glock guy but they do make a good, certainly reliable, pistol.

Pocket carry, Bawanna, like all other forms of carry, works for me in the summer. My Ruger LCP in a DeSansti Nemesis in the front pocket of my baggy cargo shorts is very easy to access. It does not work well while seated but other than that it’s not bad. It also doesn’t work in tighter fitting trousers either. The one thing I do like about it is I can nonchalantly slip my hand on the pistol, if something looks hinky, and no one’s the wiser.

In general, OWB at 3 o’clock is my favorite, anything after that is a trade off.

Good luck on the fishing, Bawanna. My buddy's bugging me to get out there too...