Followers for smoother feeding

[fsilber]

The issue I'm talking about is described in this youTube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlETN_3PkbU

He points out that when the magazine is full, hollow points won't gently feed -- one must let the slide slam on them with full power.
There are two issues with this:



Might that not indicate less reliability?
Feeding a round in so violently is likely destructive tot he cartridge if done repeatedly (e.g. if loading and unloading the same top round into the chamber repeatedly)


Can this be a real reliability issue? I know there have been some guns in the past whose magazines people were advised not to fully load, but I wouldn't want to rely on that option with a gun whose capacity is already a compromise.

He says that an aluminum follower from Lakeline LLC helps a bit. (https://lakelinellc.com/product-category/kahr-pistol-accessories/magazine-parts-accessories/)
Does anyone have experience with that?

Kahr's parts department also sells a metal follower. Does any one have experience with that part?

[Tilos]

Lots of threads on this subject, here's one:
Chambering the first round, a slingshot modification (kahrtalk.com) (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?6943-Chambering-the-first-round-a-slingshot-modification)
General consensus is that if your process is to unload/reload your carry gun with the same round, put that round in an empty mag for re-chambering.
A modified follower or Lake Line follower is the preferred follower for use in most Kahrs.
That thread linked is self-explanatory, but there are others with more info if you search for them.

Here's another thread that shows how the rounds in the mag "fan"out, creating the gap between top and 2nd round:
Inside of 8 round magazine (kahrtalk.com) (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?17326-Inside-of-8-round-magazine)
;)
.

[sorcerer]

Doesn’t that do that every time you fire the gun. Kahr’s owners manual tells you to use the slide release to drop the slide. That would be the manual of arms for a Kahr. You have to remember that in reality the loading of a round in a Kahr is a side winder affair not straight up out out of the mag on to the feed ramp. Think rickashay rabbit. Don’t try to drop the slide with an empty mag in place. Near impossible.

[Tilos]

Doesn’t that do that every time you fire the gun. Kahr’s owners manual tells you to use the slide release to drop the slide. That would be the manual of arms for a Kahr. You have to remember that in reality the loading of a round in a Kahr is a side winder affair not straight up out of the mag on to the feed ramp. Think rickashay rabbit. Don’t try to drop the slide with an empty mag in place. Near impossible.

Why yes, yes it does, just like every other single stack 9mm.
As the thread I linked shows, it's has to do with the fanning of the (tapered) 9mm ammo in the mag leaving space under the top round to nose dive when the slide pushes it forward.
The rim of the top round catching in the rim undercut of the 2nd round also contributes to that nose dive.

As far as happening every time you fire the gun, I would need a highspeed camera to determine that, and if it does it's only one bump into the ramp per round if it's fired.
I just offered some practical/proven ways Kahr owners/Kahr Talk members have delt with this problem.
Chambering from a mag with only one round has the benefit of that single round having the follow under it and no room to nose-dive.

I'm not here to debate theories, offer any explanation for what the Kahr manual "tells you what to do", or what I "have to remember that in reality".
It is what it is, if you don't have faith in your Kahr, I suggest you don't buy a Kahr, or sell it and move on to something else, as nothing I can post will convince you otherwise.
jmo,
.

[Scott321]

Generally speaking, the smaller you make something the more exact the tolerances must be. One could generaliz that a full size pistol is generally more reliable than an ultra compact. I would consider the Kahrs' internals, even with the larger pistols, for the most part ultra compact.

That being said, even with full size pistols, many rotate their first round to the bottom every time they rechamber. Some take the first round and put it in their range ammo supply, and put in a fresh round. Repeated rechambering of the same round could cause bullet set back in any semi-auto firearm.

If you're worried about not being able to work while letting the slide forward slowly, another firearm that commonly won't work with a slow slide rack is the Beretta 9M with the safety on. Although it chambers a round, it often doesn't fully return to battery... again with the safety on... and that can happen even with one round in the mag. However, I don't consider the Beretta unreliable in the least. I have not tested this with all of the brands I own.

For the record, I have both racked the slide (quickly) to load a chamber and used the slide release lever on Kahrs that were "broken in" without an issue. I did, however, let a friend (used to shooting a G17) shoot at the range. I believe he tried to rack the slide more slowly which led to a jam I had to clear (CM9 with his range FMJ ammo).

I might add, to those with S&W M&P's (and M2.0's) full size and otherwise to not slowly chamber a round either. It's my understanding (and my M2.0 does it, too), that this line of handguns will commonly fire (or at least allow trigger pull and firing pin release) while the slide is still 1/8" or more open. I might test this out with a snap-cap dummy round and very slow slide return. I don't consider these line of handguns unreliable either... but it does raise an eyebrow of concern for me.

In the end, if you don't feel confident in the firearm, than you should probably either replace it, or get a firearm that doesn't raise the concerns you mention... although a revolver might be the only way to go on rechambering the same round.

[Bawanna]

A lot depends on the ammo as well concerning bullet set back. Some aren't as tight as others.
At my old department I had two boxes on the counter in the armory labeled top rounds. When a person unloaded their gun for any reason the chambered round went into a coffee can and they took a new round out of the top round box. One for the duty caliber (45 when I left) and 223 for their rifles.
I generally do as Scott mentioned and rotate the round lower in the mag "IF" it looks ok. If not it get set aside and replaced.

[berettabone]

Generally speaking, the smaller you make something the more exact the tolerances must be. One could generaliz that a full size pistol is generally more reliable than an ultra compact. I would consider the Kahrs' internals, even with the larger pistols, for the most part ultra compact.

That being said, even with full size pistols, many rotate their first round to the bottom every time they rechamber. Some take the first round and put it in their range ammo supply, and put in a fresh round. Repeated rechambering of the same round could cause bullet set back in any semi-auto firearm.

If you're worried about not being able to work while letting the slide forward slowly, another firearm that commonly won't work with a slow slide rack is the Beretta 9M with the safety on. Although it chambers a round, it often doesn't fully return to battery... again with the safety on... and that can happen even with one round in the mag. However, I don't consider the Beretta unreliable in the least. I have not tested this with all of the brands I own.

For the record, I have both racked the slide (quickly) to load a chamber and used the slide release lever on Kahrs that were "broken in" without an issue. I did, however, let a friend (used to shooting a G17) shoot at the range. I believe he tried to rack the slide more slowly which led to a jam I had to clear (CM9 with his range FMJ ammo).

I might add, to those with S&W M&P's (and M2.0's) full size and otherwise to not slowly chamber a round either. It's my understanding (and my M2.0 does it, too), that this line of handguns will commonly fire (or at least allow trigger pull and firing pin release) while the slide is still 1/8" or more open. I might test this out with a snap-cap dummy round and very slow slide return. I don't consider these line of handguns unreliable either... but it does raise an eyebrow of concern for me.

In the end, if you don't feel confident in the firearm, than you should probably either replace it, or get a firearm that doesn't raise the concerns you mention... although a revolver might be the only way to go on rechambering the same round. Just as an adjunct, I've owned MANY Beretta's, 92's and 96's. In total, I've probably shot 10,000 rds. or more between them. Never had an issue with ammo, or a slide not returning to battery. That was using many different manufacturer's ammo. I've also owned a couple M&P's. Same scenario. I used the slide release, I didn't use the slide release. I racked it slow. It boils down to the idiosyncrasies and size of the firearm and or the ammo. Reliability never entered the conversation with the above firearms. I do agree that if you're having any qualms about a particular firearm, IMHO, it's time to hit the road. I also keep my firearms loaded and chambered constantly. I personally have never had bullet set back and don't know anyone who has. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just think it's few and far between, and rotating bullets is a feel better thing. I don't sit around and slam bullets home all day either. :o

[FreeMe]

I agree with Berettabone. This isn't as big of an issue as some people think it is. Sure, I can make the K9 or a lot of other pistols jam by cycling it slow by hand, but that's not how you're supposed to do it. And I don't know anyone who has had an issue with bullet setback with factory ammo or good reloads. I do however avoid chambering the same rounds multiple times -but not religiously. At one time, I used to toss that chambered round into a can as range fodder. But I quit doing that when I started storing my carry and house pistols in a steel pistol safe. I just keep the ones I'm using daily loaded. If not under my direct control, they're locked up in the safe. Consider it another reason you should have such a safe.

[Tilos]

I agree with Berettabone. This isn't as big of an issue as some people think it is. Sure, I can make the K9 or a lot of other pistols jam by cycling it slow by hand, but that's not how you're supposed to do it. And I don't know anyone who has had an issue with bullet setback with factory ammo or good reloads. I do however avoid chambering the same rounds multiple times -but not religiously. At one time, I used to toss that chambered round into a can as range fodder. But I quit doing that when I started storing my carry and house pistols in a steel pistol safe. I just keep the ones I'm using daily loaded. If not under my direct control, they're locked up in the safe. Consider it another reason you should have such a safe.

Here's a recent thread about bullet setback with a Kahr:

Is this safe to shoot in your opinion? | The High Road (https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/is-this-safe-to-shoot-in-your-opinion.906759/)

Yes, from multiple re-chamberings, there are others, it's more common than you realize.
just sayin'
.

[berettabone]

Why would you keep chambering the same bullet anyway Sound like idiots to me? Nothing better to do than to keep chambering the same bullet?

[FreeMe]

Here's a recent thread about bullet setback with a Kahr:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/is-this-safe-to-shoot-in-your-opinion.906759/" target="_blank">Is this safe to shoot in your opinion? | The High Road</a><br>
<br>
Yes, from multiple re-chamberings, there are others, it's more common than you realize.<br>
just sayin'<br>
.

Oh I'm sure it happens. But it isn't a given. Not even in the Kahrs. Have you ever bothered to actually measure setback from multiple chamberings in your Kahr? I have, and I guess I don't know how many times a round has to be chambered for it to set back, but it's more than several. I guess...unless there is a poorly manufactured round?

At any rate, I have never in the 25 years I've been shooting Kahrs had a problem with that first round loading without jamming. Yeah, I can induce the jam deliberately, but never had it happen without my causing it by cycling that first round in a manner other than outlined in the manual. I can say the same for all of my centerfire single stack pistols. As for the worrisome first round that has been chambered and then ejected without firing......If you did that every day and tossed that round into a bucket, you'd have 365 practice rounds per year with your chosen carry round. Not a bad idea to use those for training or just verifying reliability in a new gun or mag. If you can't afford that, you have the option of chambering the first round from a single-loaded mag (as I always do for any pistol when I want it topped off - just because it's easier) but then, you get to worry about bullets pulling out.

To me, this all adds up to much ado about nothing. My primary carry stays loaded pretty much all the time and goes into the safe if I'm not wearing it.

Now, your mag base plates, OTOH.....that's something to worry about. Those plastic base plates on your seven round mags are gonna let go eventually and spill all of your rounds in the dirt. Ask me how I know. I'd be changing those out to the steel plates before worrying about the followers. (all my followers are original, BTW)

[FreeMe]

Why would you keep chambering the same bullet anyway Sound like idiots to me? Nothing better to do than to keep chambering the same bullet?

Indeed. I've only done it to test the theory.

[Tilos]

OK,
Most self-defense ammo comes 20 rounds per box and is not cheap, if you didn't shoot any of it, you would be reloading a round for the second time after only 20 days. :p

Bullet setback is a mechanical thing, with the bullet bumping the ramp with the force of the recoil spring.
Bullet pull-out is an inertia thing, way different from setback, in my opinion.

I might be an idiot then, as I mentioned, I too use the chambering from a magazine with a single round to avoid set-back and will continue with that.

And with that one-round in a mag I can ride the slide all the way closed with no chance of bullet setback OR bullet pull-out.
Just to be clear, I am not condoning any other methods posted here, ride your own ride...
jmo,
.

[FreeMe]

^That's a sure fire system to avoid any trouble.

I don't buy anything but premium ammo for carry, and although I've tested and measured several rechamberings on individuals of those rounds, I have seen no measurable setback or pull out using my digital caliper. I suspect that if someone is seeing it happen in a couple of chamberings it's probably not the best ammo, but I've never verified that. Ironically, I can guarantee that my reloads won't set back with dozens of rechamberings. But I don't carry reloads outside of the shooting range, so that's kind of irrelevant.
:yo: