Will Kahr stay in 1999?

[kahrbrian]

So my p365 xl is almost as slim as my ST9. The XL holds 12+1. The ST9 holds 8+1. It seems an easy step to redesign the frame so that the car can stay in the same ballpark. The new magazine designs from Smith and Wesson and SIG would be conducive to feeding in a redesign Kahr. I would like to see this because I do like the Kahr trigger.

[DavidR]

Kahr’s polymer frame is really beefy. It seems like they could thin out the magwell and do at least a staggered stack to get a few more rounds.

[franco45]

I own two P365s and a Sccy DVG-1 that also holds 10 rounds and is pretty small. Having said that I just picked up an ST9 and an S9. I certainly missed that Kahr trigger.

[SlowBurn]

I'd like to see Kahr innovate beyond P365 clones. We don't need more of those. There was a time when Kahr was like Kel-Tec with higher quality standards. But now it seems their innovating days are over.

[DavidR]

Kahr handguns have a lot of catching up to do before they innovate:

Modularity
Capacity
Optic ready

[King Rat]

I wonder how many Kahr owners are now dead because they did not have a double stack magazine or Red Dot. Must be in the tens of thousands. I get the feeling I am one of the last standing. I know, I am a dead man walking. Oh well.

[Bawanna]

I suspect Kahr and their affiliate companies will still be around long after all of us are pushing up daisies or scattered to the winds.
Variety is the spice of life, if a handful of rounds isn't enough or your a spray and pray type, get something else. Easy peasy.

[DavidR]

The post topic was will Kahr redesign to catch up with the market? Nobody said anything about needing more capacity, modularity or a red dot, which by the way are all innovations that built on Kahr’s innovative single stack 9.

To anyone who isn’t already pushing up daisies, it’s obvious that the Kahr brand of semi automatic pistols is stale. The world has moved on.

It’s great that Kahr has a loyal following. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with a well functioning Kahr but there’s also absolutely nothing a Kahr semi-auto can do that other more innovative pistols can’t do better.

[JohnR]

Revolvers still sell strongly. I don’t think Ruger or S&W have changed a whole lot in their revolver offerings in a decade or so.

Speaking of low-capacity carry guns without red dots, that is.

[IDisposable]

I know, I am a dead man walking.

Aren't we all? https://youtu.be/l3ZL1hvEkXg

[DavidR]

Revolvers versus a specific semi auto offering is an apples and oranges comparison.

[DavidR]

Kahr single stack pistols do offer a unique trigger in the category. There seems to be enough demand for them to keep making these pistols but the evidence suggests that there’s not enough demand to invest in the R&D and retooling needed for a redesign to appeal to a broader market.

[King Rat]

Personally, I hope Kahr does not go the way of the Double Stack or for God sake the red dot. I would not be interested. They have such a lovely well built, uni1que and practical guns now. In fact, as much as I do not need another gun, these post get me wanting another Kahr. But which one? I am doing a little research to find ONE MORE.
Saw this. On sale for $379.00

https://i.imgur.com/OunC1oM.jpg

[JohnR]

Revolvers versus a specific semi auto offering is an apples and oranges comparison.
How about, Charter Arms? 5 to 7 round red dotless revolvers only? How does the company survive? Same way Kahr does, I guess. The there’s Kimber - what compelled them to make revolvers?

[berettabone]

IMHO, Charter Arms sells to people that have less denaro and have less firearm knowledge. Between the lousy sights, lousy trigger, cylinder wobble, lousy finish, and binding issues, I don't think I would waste my time.

[JohnR]

I learned that the hard way :(

[King Rat]

Do not know much about Charter Arms as I have never owned one. I do own a LCR9mm since it first came out in 2010 and never looked back. I own the Smith 642, but carry it more than the LCR because it is a lighter weight and shoots just fine. The 642 is most likely in every gun shop in America and keeps on trucking. Funny how Ruger has changed so many models over the Years, but the well built LCR just keeps on selling Have one in 22,cal as well and my favorite plinker of all time.

And if I had to carry only the LCR, it would not bother me one single bit. KISS, Keep it Simple Stupid seems to always be the best advice. Kahr CM9, small, simple, eloquent and so well built. (Lousy for spray and Pray)

https://i.imgur.com/IaYmQSR.jpg?1

[Bawanna]

Charter Arms was always hit and miss much like Taurus. Word on the street is both have improved considerably. Many years ago I had a 44 spl Bulldog Pug. It was great. Had a fine trigger and plenty accurate. For the life of me I can't recall why I ever parted with it. A good gunsmith at the time told me it wasn't worth trying to improve triggers as the metal was too soft etc. I've since from time to time looked for another but haven't followed through and probably won't. Have several revolvers, currently a Schofield top break is high on my list. Wish the slush fund would catch up with my desires.

[DavidR]

How about, Charter Arms? 5 to 7 round red dotless revolvers only? How does the company survive? Same way Kahr does, I guess. The there’s Kimber - what compelled them to make revolvers?

The market for revolvers has seen very little innovation. There aren’t competitors with innovative products that offer more than Charter Arms.

The market for semi automatics has seen a lot of innovation. There are competitors with innovative products that offer more than Kahr Arms.

[DavidR]

(Lousy for spray and Pray)



I guess when you have weak arguments you have to resort to nonsensical insults.

[DavidR]

Kahr’s conundrum:

They make a great pistol with a relatively small loyal customer base who for the most part say they wouldn’t buy an updated product. Hence Kahr will not invest in updating their pistols.

[kahrbrian]

Please keep in mind it’s not mandatory and of course Kahr can keep putting out single stack guns for us older types, but why not copy the 365/shield+ mag and generate a slim light 12-15 round gun with the trigger we all like? Walther was in financial failure mode after the P88 - arguably the coolest most expensive wonder 9 - and applied it in the plastic game and generated the wonderful p99 then PPQ and the rest us history, and a good one at that.

You don’t HAVE to stay “one trick”.

[King Rat]

Kahr’s conundrum:

They make a great pistol with a relatively small loyal customer base who for the most part say they wouldn’t buy an updated product. Hence Kahr will not invest in updating their pistols.

Sounds good to me. I get the impression you are not pleased with the double stack you have and still hoping Kahr comes out with one. I don't care myself, but for others that want one, I hope they do. Must be frustrating.

[DavidR]

Sounds good to me. I get the impression you are not pleased with the double stack you have and still hoping Kahr comes out with one. I don't care myself, but for others that want one, I hope they do. Must be frustrating.

Just the opposite. I’m thrilled with the 365 platform and don’t see myself buying an updated offering from Kahr if one becomes available.

I’m happy with my lone Kahr, a CT380, just the way it is, but it lives in the safe.

[King Rat]

Just the opposite. I’m thrilled with the 365 platform and don’t see myself buying an updated offering from Kahr if one becomes available.

I’m happy with my lone Kahr, a CT380, just the way it is, but it lives in the safe.

So why all the drama that Kahr has not come out with a double stack? You should be good to go.

[DavidR]

I must have missed the drama, just having a conversation.

[JohnR]

Kahr can do whatever they want, doesn’t bother me. But there’s a market they could easily tap into and they’re not. Kind of like how Honda never made a pickup truck, and just when the market was saturated with pickup trucks they came up with the Ridgeline.

I think we’re just giving them friendly unsolicited advice, not saying we want a double stack Kahr. It’s not about me and my wants, it’s about wanting Kahr to stay strong in the gun business.

[getsome]

Kahr can do whatever they want, doesn’t bother me. But there’s a market they could easily tap into and they’re not. Kind of like how Honda never made a pickup truck, and just when the market was saturated with pickup trucks they came up with the Ridgeline.

I think we’re just giving them friendly unsolicited advice, not saying we want a double stack Kahr. It’s not about me and my wants, it’s about wanting Kahr to stay strong in the gun business.


I’ve often wondered many times why Honda hasn’t gone into the pickup truck business because if they ever did they would own the market and I even being a die hard loyal Chevy guy would happily buy one and be happy because they make great products……….

[King Rat]

Kahr can do whatever they want, doesn’t bother me. But there’s a market they could easily tap into and they’re not. Kind of like how Honda never made a pickup truck, and just when the market was saturated with pickup trucks they came up with the Ridgeline.

I think we’re just giving them friendly unsolicited advice, not saying we want a double stack Kahr. It’s not about me and my wants, it’s about wanting Kahr to stay strong in the gun business.

I would say that Mr. Moon, as well as Honda know the business quite well. So in that regards, Maybe Kahr has a reason that we do not know. The market is so frigging saturated with Double Stack Pistols. Maybe he does not want to get buried in the fray at this point. Kahr would just be another fish in the Barrel. Not sure I do not blame him. It is hard enough to keep up with the Army of Double stacks. It is getting boring to even see them.
The Kahr is a SOLID product, and screw the ridiculous red dot mounted on a small carry gun. Let the others have them. Double stack mags? To this day, I do not, have not seen anyone or known of anyone that has had to use so many rounds which are nothing but more weight and unnecessary for Practical carry. Personally I think Kahr is smart to stay with a Winner which they have. I have a double stack which IMO is a good gun, but I do not carry it. The simple Kahr is more Practical and heck, I even like the feel of them and even like to look at them, hold them. Just a splendid firearm in so many ways and so UNIQUE. Long live the King!

[yqtszhj]

I’ve often wondered many times why Honda hasn’t gone into the pickup truck business because if they ever did they would own the market and I even being a die hard loyal Chevy guy would happily buy one and be happy because they make great products……….

I like Honda’s and drove Honda’s for many years. One thing I can’t figure out is why Honda has stuck with a timing belt that has to be replaced on an interference engine where the piston will hit the valves (unless they changed in the last few years.) Toyota went with a timing chain on most everything I’m aware of (except my older Tundra which has a 90,000 mile replacement schedule, arggggg…) That is the only engineering/maintenance shortcoming Honda has that I can remember. Oh, and putting the oil filter against the firewall like American cars do also, that’s just dumb engineering.

[berettabone]

I'm still driving a 08 Accord approaching 200,000 mi. I had to have the 100,000 mi. maintenance done. The light came on at about 110,000 mi. Timing belt, waterpump, plugs, wires. Now I'm approaching the magic mileage again. Big decisions now. Whether to spend the money for the second time or say bye. I know what I paid the last time and I'm sure it's much higher now. Getting closer to what the car is worth.................

[King Rat]

I'm still driving a 08 Accord approaching 200,000 mi. I had to have the 100,000 mi. maintenance done. The light came on at about 110,000 mi. Timing belt, waterpump, plugs, wires. Now I'm approaching the magic mileage again. Big decisions now. Whether to spend the money for the second time or say bye. I know what I paid the last time and I'm sure it's much higher now. Getting closer to what the car is worth.................

Lol, have you seen the prices on both new and Used Cars? Personally I would get the Maintenance done and go another 100,000 miles. Maybe you are paying cash for another car, that is a whole lot of mula and Brandon interest rates are through the roof. A water pump, belt etc. are just standard maintenance, nothing really wrong with the car. New cars are nice, but 6 months down the road, it is just another car but with huge payments. Each to his own. Not trying to spend your money.

[berettabone]

The maintenance is probably way north of $2000 by now. Half the cars worth.

[King Rat]

The maintenance is probably way north of $2000 by now. Half the cars worth.

Depends on how you look at it. Someone will jump on that car, invest in the same cost to do the repairs. And have a nice ride for the next 100,000 miles. How much will it cost you for a new car for the same miles driven? Regardless, as I said, it is your money and even if you get rid of it, you will make someone happy for a small chunk of change which 2k is compared to a new car. Most dealers are selling over sticker. You would need 2k just to put down for the difference to keep from being upside down on the new car. Spend 2k literately before you drive off the lot and then more rapid depreciation for the next two years.
But, you might be happier in a new car. Heck, you only live once. JMO

[kahrbrian]

Sorry to bore. Maybe cars are more interesting than Kahrs.

I'd add that Kahr started BASED on innovation. They offered a slim, small, lightweight gun with MORE barrel length - albeit slight - over other offerings becuase they designed a different feed angle. While they can remain relevant with a diminished market, the application of a 1.5 stack mag with a SINGLE round feed is uniquely suited to their design - me thinks. They could attain the feed angle needed and provide something better and just about as slim. Note no mention of optics here. I am talking the magazine.

Also, I have written them about the mag thing a few years back. Obviously, they aren't impressed. Some businesses are fine with building enough to retire on. I just think they are making us miss out on a very good option. Who would not like a P9 - with the only change being a 12-13 round mag?

[King Rat]

Sorry to bore. Maybe cars are more interesting than Kahrs.

I'd add that Kahr started BASED on innovation. They offered a slim, small, lightweight gun with MORE barrel length - albeit slight - over other offerings becuase they designed a different feed angle. While they can remain relevant with a diminished market, the application of a 1.5 stack mag with a SINGLE round feed is uniquely suited to their design - me thinks. They could attain the feed angle needed and provide something better and just about as slim. Note no mention of optics here. I am talking the magazine.

Also, I have written them about the mag thing a few years back. Obviously, they aren't impressed. Some businesses are fine with building enough to retire on. I just think they are making us miss out on a very good option. Who would not like a P9 - with the only change being a 12-13 round mag?

I wouldn't. Just no interest at all. Hey, you asked. And maybe they are, could be what the "Firearm Guy" was alluding to. I won't be selling the dozen or so mags I have now and won't in the future even if one does come out. Not worth it for what you get.
Then again, maybe they could come up with a magazine to fit the present Kahr. After all, the real "game changer" (God, I hate that term) was the Magazine, not the gun. The guns in reality are no better than their single stack counter parts. Just a few more rounds.

[DavidR]

Kahr could update to make a more competitive product but I’m betting they won’t.

The market for small, high capacity 9mm firearms (some modular and some with options for optics) is pretty well saturated. Not many customers will buy a Kahr offering with so many other options. Heck, even many current Kahr owners aren’t interested.

None of us know what Kahr is thinking. Did they consciously decide not to evolve with the market or do they just not have the capital and skills to do a redesign? Let’s not forget that their last attempt at a redesign was a failure and never came to market.

[kahrbrian]

Kahr could update to make a more competitive product but I’m betting they won’t.

The market for small, high capacity 9mm firearms (some modular and some with options for optics) is pretty well saturated. Not many customers will buy a Kahr offering with so many other options. Heck, even many current Kahr owners aren’t interested.

None of us know what Kahr is thinking. Did they consciously decide not to evolve with the market or do they just not have the capital and skills to do a redesign? Let’s not forget that their last attempt at a redesign was a failure and never came to market.

Spot on - probably a combo of market saturation and no 'will' to go after it.

[King Rat]

Kahr could update to make a more competitive product but I’m betting they won’t.

The market for small, high capacity 9mm firearms (some modular and some with options for optics) is pretty well saturated. Not many customers will buy a Kahr offering with so many other options. Heck, even many current Kahr owners aren’t interested.

None of us know what Kahr is thinking. Did they consciously decide not to evolve with the market or do they just not have the capital and skills to do a redesign? Let’s not forget that their last attempt at a redesign was a failure and never came to market.

If Brandon gets reelected ,(which is a good chance he will), we will be lucky to even own a firearm. Most gun's in a few years will be limited to 10 or less anyway. American has a deadly cancer and getting worse each day. Not even sure what it will be like in a few years. Maybe Kahr see's the writing on the wall.

[DavidR]

If Brandon gets reelected ,(which is a good chance he will), we will be lucky to even own a firearm. Most gun's in a few years will be limited to 10 or less anyway. American has a deadly cancer and getting worse each day. Not even sure what it will be like in a few years. Maybe Kahr see's the writing on the wall.

I do find it curious that some of these new offerings start with an 11 round or greater magazine. They’re not even interested in arming Patriots in the Communist provinces. At least my Sigs and Shield Plus have 10 round mag options.

I live in NC which has been considered a purple state. The 22 elections made the state much redder (veto proof majorities in the house and senate and a conservative Supreme Court majority). The commie Governor is up for reelection in 24.

[King Rat]

One of the greatest events happened to Virginia. A Republican took over as Gov. We had the Anti-gun, Pro BLM commie Ralph Northam. Disgusting piece of crap. And we got a Replublican Attorney who on his first day in office FIRED the BLM former staff on the spot. Told them to hit the streets. We have a ray of hope. Small one, but something to pray on.

[King Rat]

New Micro 9mm Sheriff in Town. The Sig 365 and Glock Killer
Here comes the DAGGER!

I think the gun at this point that has risen to the very top of what the general Public wants will be the NEW MICRO PSA Dagger Micro. If I were starting over again and young, this would be the one gun I would buy. Versatile, the win for those that love high capacity, NO Freaking more Blistered fingers from the ridiculous Glock trigger guard. Low cost, high achiever exceeding all expectations. Mags cheap and abundant, abundant parts, options, and and a Real American price. AND ONLY WEIGHS 15 OZ. comes with 15 rd magazine -Bravo to PSA@

Lol I wonder if 15 rds will satisfy the more is better crowd?

I do not need another gun, but will buy Dagger Micro when I can get one and a extra slide. (SOLD OUT)


https://i.imgur.com/wsLdEQE.jpg


https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-dagger-micro-9mm-pistol-shield-cut-black-dlc.html

[DavidR]

I think that’s a clone of a G43x with a Shield Arms magazine. That offering, albeit at a higher price, has been available for a long time. It hasn’t killed anything.

[berettabone]

Lest not forget the Mossberg's, and Savage.

[dao]

This is what I find myself carrying more often than not.

I have a P365X but have not yet taken it to the range to test it out. After I do I will probably carry it most since it has about the same capacity and a red dot. In a considerable smaller package, even with the red dot.

I do still carry one of my Kahrs occasionally but not nearly as much. Still love em though.

[King Rat]

Here is a interesting Pic for comparison. And the Dagger takes Glock mags. Lol, if both were the same cost I would choose the Dagger. (and I have the 365 XL) The Dagger has a lot going for it in Price alone. The fact is there are a number of nice, quality firearms now manufactured that you can get for so much less. This is where Kahr is going to have to think about.

https://i.imgur.com/thO5E09.jpg

[Bawanna]

Lest not forget the Mossberg's, and Savage.

I'd like to run across a Mossberg in person. Haven't even seen a picture of the Savage. Being a fan of both Mossberg and Savage rifles they might be a good fit?

[King Rat]

I'd like to run across a Mossberg in person. Haven't even seen a picture of the Savage. Being a fan of both Mossberg and Savage rifles they might be a good fit?

Both are very nice guns. Savage bought out Honor Defense for the Stance. The Honor Defense was a nice gun in it's own right. Small company that could not compete but now shines with Savage.

[berettabone]

This is what I find myself carrying more often than not.

I have a P365X but have not yet taken it to the range to test it out. After I do I will probably carry it most since it has about the same capacity and a red dot. In a considerable smaller package, even with the red dot.

I do still carry one of my Kahrs occasionally but not nearly as much. Still love em though. A good choice.

[FreeMe]

I don't care at all about mag capacity, so long as I can start with 7+1. People forget that - all else being equal - when you fill that 12 round mag, you've added weight. Sure, you can download the mag, but what reason then is there for another gun? I bought the P365xl specifically because it was red dot ready and I wanted to see if the optic would work for me. You guys who say "screw the dot" don't know what you're missing. The size of the 365xl is comparable to the P9 and the trigger is okay, but since I had the P9 milled for a Holosun 407, I prefer carrying that pistol still over the 365 because I still run the Kahr trigger better than anything in its size class. Having a slide RDS ready from the factory doesn't mean you're required to mount one, but it gives you that option - which many will appreciate as their eyes age. In a sub-compact pistol, it's a big deal. I'm contemplating having the K9 Elite 03 milled as well, but if Kahr would make the K9 RDS ready or offer a factory ready slide, I'd be all over that.

Extra rounds may be attractive to a lot of you guys (for reasons IMO more imagined than real) but optical sights are where it's at. Increased speed and accuracy trumps capacity all day long.

BTW - anybody seen one of these in the wild?....

https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/2686/kahr+tp90r936rd+tp9+dao+9mm+6+compensated+8+1+w+rd +blk+grip+frame+ss

[DavidR]

I doubt they ever actually made one available for retail sale.

[King Rat]

I don't care at all about mag capacity, so long as I can start with 7+1. People forget that - all else being equal - when you fill that 12 round mag, you've added weight. Sure, you can download the mag, but what reason then is there for another gun? I bought the P365xl specifically because it was red dot ready and I wanted to see if the optic would work for me. You guys who say "screw the dot" don't know what you're missing. The size of the 365xl is comparable to the P9 and the trigger is okay, but since I had the P9 milled for a Holosun 407, I prefer carrying that pistol still over the 365 because I still run the Kahr trigger better than anything in its size class. Having a slide RDS ready from the factory doesn't mean you're required to mount one, but it gives you that option - which many will appreciate as their eyes age. In a sub-compact pistol, it's a big deal. I'm contemplating having the K9 Elite 03 milled as well, but if Kahr would make the K9 RDS ready or offer a factory ready slide, I'd be all over that.

Extra rounds may be attractive to a lot of you guys (for reasons IMO more imagined than real) but optical sights are where it's at. Increased speed and accuracy trumps capacity all day long.

BTW - anybody seen one of these in the wild?....



Actually I have made the effort to go red dot. Both on a Sig 365XL and the GX4. Sorry, but I found them useless and slow at EDC range distance. For a Military firearm, I can see where they would benefit for longer distances. I will agree with you on mag capacity 7 is plenty. Too many years of honing point and shoot skills to change to a red dot.

[King Rat]

I wonder if Glock will try and clone the PSA Dagger?


https://i.imgur.com/cAmsOuG.jpg?1

[FreeMe]

Actually I have made the effort to go red dot. Both on a Sig 365XL and the GX4. Sorry, but I found them useless and slow at EDC range distance. For a Military firearm, I can see where they would benefit for longer distances. I will agree with you on mag capacity 7 is plenty. Too many years of honing point and shoot skills to change to a red dot.

It's certainly not for everyone. If you are the type who can and does focus hard on the front sight, it may take a lot of practice to get good with the dot. And if you're good at whatever you call point shooting and all your shooting is under ten yards, you won't likely see any practical advantage. Myself, I quit focusing on the front sight in close range defensive practice years ago, so focusing on the target is second nature. So that translates well to shooting with the dot. The result for me and a lot of others is that speed is improved at longer ranges, and accuracy is improved at all ranges - especially with short pistols. Since I don't think of all defensive shooting as limited to ten or even 25 yards, this is important to me.

But that's not all. No less an authority than Ken Hackathorn (who isn't particularly fond of RDS) points out that new shooters are often quicker to develop proficiency with dot sights than with irons. My experience training new shooters in my family tends to bear this out. And that is the number one reason why I think Kahr should be incorporating RDS ready slides into their existing line of pistols. We Kahr fans are not the fresh market that we once were. New shooters are going to gravitate to RDS ready designs, especially as reliability continues to improve and prices moderate. It's puzzling to me that they haven't already done it, because it doesn't require any design change in the existing lineup.

[King Rat]

It's certainly not for everyone. If you are the type who can and does focus hard on the front sight, it may take a lot of practice to get good with the dot. And if you're good at whatever you call point shooting and all your shooting is under ten yards, you won't likely see any practical advantage. Myself, I quit focusing on the front sight in close range defensive practice years ago, so focusing on the target is second nature. So that translates well to shooting with the dot. The result for me and a lot of others is that speed is improved at longer ranges, and accuracy is improved at all ranges - especially with short pistols. Since I don't think of all defensive shooting as limited to ten or even 25 yards, this is important to me.



But that's not all. No less an authority than Ken Hackathorn (who isn't particularly fond of RDS) points out that new shooters are often quicker to develop proficiency with dot sights than with irons. My experience training new shooters in my family tends to bear this out. And that is the number one reason why I think Kahr should be incorporating RDS ready slides into their existing line of pistols. We Kahr fans are not the fresh market that we once were. New shooters are going to gravitate to RDS ready designs, especially as reliability continues to improve and prices moderate. It's puzzling to me that they haven't already done it, because it doesn't require any design change in the existing lineup.

New shooters typically target shoot their guns. Personally, I would teach shooting skills without a dot at a early stage. If they want to morph to a red dot later that is up to them. Depending on a Red Dot is risky. Having to use a gun in a emergency for example without a red dot and the shooter would be lost. Just like a rifle. Teach to shoot with open sights first, not a scope. I taught my son to shoot, watched him advance his skills, then later In the military which does not teach with Red Dots on Pistols. Rifles yes.
That said, I have encouraged him to learn the red dot for Distances that would be in combat which is not the same as civilian Carry. And we are talking about a Combat weapon not a carry gun. Personally, I am a hardcore believer in teaching a young person to shoot a Snub nose revolver as they advance. Each to his own.

[djd100]

10+1 flush mag PM9 Rev 2, which uses the current slide, perfect!

[FreeMe]

New shooters typically target shoot their guns. Personally, I would teach shooting skills without a dot at a early stage. If they want to morph to a red dot later that is up to them. Depending on a Red Dot is risky. Having to use a gun in a emergency for example without a red dot and the shooter would be lost....

I don't disagree with that. But the facts remain that they become proficient at distance faster with optics, and that is what the market of new shooters wants. That Kahr refuses to give the market what it wants is odd and hurts resale value. It's not like it would be difficult or expensive to do, and it's not like the user is forced to install the optic. We can argue all day whether having an optical sight is wise (even the experts disagree), but ignoring the market trend for no good reason makes no sense at all.

[King Rat]

I don't disagree with that. But the facts remain that they become proficient at distance faster with optics, and that is what the market of new shooters wants. That Kahr refuses to give the market what it wants is odd and hurts resale value. It's not like it would be difficult or expensive to do, and it's not like the user is forced to install the optic. We can argue all day whether having an optical sight is wise (even the experts disagree), but ignoring the market trend for no good reason makes no sense at all.

I get into conversations about guns because it is hobby and conversations just away to past time. In reality, I do not care about Marketing trends, what another person carries etc. What Mr. Moon does now or in the future is really insignificant to my life. I am happy with what I have, love to shoot, and it would be dumb of me to even purchase another firearm. If you need a red dot then fine. I don't. No big deal.

[FreeMe]

I get into conversations about guns because it is hobby and conversations just away to past time. In reality, I do not care about Marketing trends, what another person carries etc. What Mr. Moon does now or in the future is really insignificant to my life. I am happy with what I have, love to shoot, and it would be dumb of me to even purchase another firearm. If you need a red dot then fine. I don't. No big deal.

LOL, I sure don't need to buy another gun. :rolleyes:

[Bawanna]

Once again in an effort to fit in I've got this strapped on today. Had it awhile, shoots great, don't carry it often as it's kind of bulky, but it's riding nicely today. Might see more ride time now and again although I do try to stay with one carry gun. Just variety mostly around the house. Don't get out much but carry something any time I'm wearing pants which is most of the time. 12 round mag, Shield Red Dot. I got this to try the red dot thing and it was the only one that naturally came to point of aim with the dot. Glocks at the department I always had to adjust to find the dot. I find that if I just look for the sights which line up perfect with the dot, the dot will just be there, so guess I'm kind of using both worlds.

[dao]

Colonel one thing I've learned about using red dots is that presenting the gun from the middle of the chest greatly helps to put the dot into the picture immediately and naturally. Now I don't mean the uber tacticool way of presenting that you see on some gun channels, but rather just a grip with both hands at my chest and then slowly moving the gun out in front of me.
I tend to laugh at some of these guys who push it out and pull it back at warp speed, then quickly look in both directions with the gun against their chest, even though in truth, and in a gunfight such actions might be necessary if not critical to staying alive. But I don't believe that being the quickest or the most tactical is for me or my mindset.
Bottom line I guess is that presenting the gun from the middle rather than coming over from the strong side toward the middle really helps me to put the dot on target quickly. I'm never trying to find the dot like I have to if I bring the gun up from my side.
To get back on topic I think that Kahr really should get back into a development mindset, if for no other reason than to avoid slipping further and further behind. If they're not being discussed in a positive and enthusiastic manner by the community their brand will become irrelevant. The world moves on.

[King Rat]

LOL, I sure don't need to buy another gun. :rolleyes:

Lol, I saw this video and got a great laugh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caMHdcRNEkc&t=16s

[King Rat]

Colonel one thing I've learned about using red dots is that presenting the gun from the middle of the chest greatly helps to put the dot into the picture immediately and naturally. Now I don't mean the uber tacticool way of presenting that you see on some gun channels, but rather just a grip with both hands at my chest and then slowly moving the gun out in front of me.
I tend to laugh at some of these guys who push it out and pull it back at warp speed, then quickly look in both directions with the gun against their chest, even though in truth, and in a gunfight such actions might be necessary if not critical to staying alive. But I don't believe that being the quickest or the most tactical is for me or my mindset.
Bottom line I guess is that presenting the gun from the middle rather than coming over from the strong side toward the middle really helps me to put the dot on target quickly. I'm never trying to find the dot like I have to if I bring the gun up from my side.
To get back on topic I think that Kahr really should get back into a development mindset, if for no other reason than to avoid slipping further and further behind. If they're not being discussed in a positive and enthusiastic manner by the community their brand will become irrelevant. The world moves on.

I find it easier to just point the gun at the target and pull the trigger. Not interested in finding a red dot, just putting a bullet in the bad guy as fast as possible before he puts one in me. Might even have to shoot from the hip if necessary. I bet it is a whole lot of fun trying to find the red dot with only the off hand.
Red Dots, lasers, etc.
FOR GOD SAKE MAN! JUST SHOOT THE SOB!

[dao]

I agree King, but if one is going to go that route...

I practice point shooting as well as with sights, lasers, and dots. Because it's all fun to me, and I like to have options. Kind of like last year when I was having problems with my right arm. I started practicing with my left and found that being left eye dominant anyway, it was not hard at all for me to put rounds on target with my left hand. Seeing a red dot clearly can be much easier for some than iron sights. And, while most self defence shootings happen up close, not all do and I'd like to be able to be accurate out to about 10yds or so rather than waiting on the bad guy to come closer before I take my shot.

At what distances to you do the most point shooting, and how much difference is there in your accuracy in your practice at the closest and furthest distances you practice at?

[King Rat]

I agree King, but if one is going to go that route...

I practice point shooting as well as with sights, lasers, and dots. Because it's all fun to me, and I like to have options. Kind of like last year when I was having problems with my right arm. I started practicing with my left and found that being left eye dominant anyway, it was not hard at all for me to put rounds on target with my left hand. Seeing a red dot clearly can be much easier for some than iron sights. And, while most self defense shootings happen up close, not all do and I'd like to be able to be accurate out to about 10yds or so rather than waiting on the bad guy to come closer before I take my shot.

At what distances to you do the most point shooting, and how much difference is there in your accuracy in your practice at the closest and furthest distances you practice at?

3 yds to 15 yards.

https://i.imgur.com/r3olm1V.jpg
PS I stay out of Malls.

[King Rat]

Years ago, I was into Pellet gun 10 meter target shooting competition. I forgot all about this Red Dot I tried out. Even then I took it off and did better with the stock sights.

(Gun could shoot the wings off a fly)

https://i.imgur.com/PcpOXQC.jpg?3

The funny thing is, as much as I love shooting and have so many guns, 99% of the time, I leave the house I carry a Smith 642, a Beretta Pico or the Kahr 380. I do not even like to carry a gun. I guess that is why I spent so many years honing my skills and appreciating them. Felt that if you are going to carry one, ya might as well become proficient with em.

[FreeMe]

Lol, I saw this video and got a great laugh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caMHdcRNEkc&t=16s

Now, that's funny!

[yqtszhj]

Lol, I saw this video and got a great laugh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caMHdcRNEkc&t=16s

Lotta truth in that video. In 2009 I only had a 1980’s Colt King Cobra and a Colt .380 government model.
In 2010 I bought a LCP because the Colt 380 was too heavy and too pretty to carry.
Shot about 500 rounds through the LCP then started looking for a 9mm because the ammo was cheaper and there was a 380 shortage.
Looked at a Keltec PF9 but the dealer pointed me to a Kahr CW9. He said it was a Lexus and the Keltec was a Volkswagen.
Bought the CW9, joined this forum (which has since cost me a small fortune.)
I have a jumbo safe now and when I go into a gun shop I rarely see anything I haven’t either owned, shot, or traded for something else.
Wife still let’s me visit here even though it has cost tens of thousands of dollars in the past decade, probably because if I buy something new… she get something new also.

The saga continues…..

[Bawanna]

Years ago, I was into Pellet gun 10 meter target shooting competition. I forgot all about this Red Dot I tried out. Even then I took it off and did better with the stock sights.

(Gun could shoot the wings off a fly)

https://i.imgur.com/PcpOXQC.jpg?3

The funny thing is, as much as I love shooting and have so many guns, 99% of the time, I leave the house I carry a Smith 642, a Beretta Pico or the Kahr 380. I do not even like to carry a gun. I guess that is why I spent so many years honing my skills and appreciating them. Felt that if you are going to carry one, ya might as well become proficient with em.

Looks like a Red Dot I have. (It's in a drawer) Fire Fly? It worked good, just didn't have anything I wanted it on for now.

[King Rat]

Looks like a Red Dot I have. (It's in a drawer) Fire Fly? It worked good, just didn't have anything I wanted it on for now.

Kind of like when I looked in my drawer and found a laser. Wait a few more years and you will most likely find your present Red Dot sitting in a drawer and chuckle to yourself and say, 'Ah, I remember when they were all the rage.'

[FreeMe]

Years ago, I was into Pellet gun 10 meter target shooting competition. I forgot all about this Red Dot I tried out. Even then I took it off and did better with the stock sights.

(Gun could shoot the wings off a fly)

https://i.imgur.com/PcpOXQC.jpg?3

The funny thing is, as much as I love shooting and have so many guns, 99% of the time, I leave the house I carry a Smith 642, a Beretta Pico or the Kahr 380. I do not even like to carry a gun. I guess that is why I spent so many years honing my skills and appreciating them. Felt that if you are going to carry one, ya might as well become proficient with em.

That's almost an apples to oranges comparison to the current micro red dots. BTDT, and using that sight isn't anything like them. Got a similar sight sitting on the back of a shelf myself. That was indeed a failed experiment.

As for MRDS being a passing fad? How long do we have to wait to collect on that bet? ;)

[King Rat]

That's almost an apples to oranges comparison to the current micro red dots. BTDT, and using that sight isn't anything like them. Got a similar sight sitting on the back of a shelf myself. That was indeed a failed experiment.

As for MRDS being a passing fad? How long do we have to wait to collect on that bet? ;)

Hardly apples to oranges? Lol, Had the same red dot just like any other. Just different size mount, Large and Bulky. Technology the same. Yea they may be smaller, better battery life etc. but please do not tell me the red dot was not the same. I should know, we were shooting some serious precision. Basically the same damn red dot like on my Present Halosun's, etc. By the way, I still have some older models as well. As I said, I am all for Red Dots on AR's and shotguns. But not a Small Barrel EDC or anything under 20 yds. Ridiculous. All of us tried them and all of us removed them. Just not accurate and now just not fast. There is no sense in arguing this. If you need a Red Dot, you need one, I do not. And no matter how much you keep insisting that I do is not going to change my mind. I am not going to get myself killed using a product that does not work any where as good as honed point and shoot skills. For gosh sake, it would take me the same about of years of training and ammo to get to the same level even if I did want one the damn things. And I do not have that many years left lol.
If I were in combat possibly would think about using one if the military equipped me with one, or hunting and 30-100 yds out. I get it. But not for a EDC pistol.

[dao]

3 yds to 15 yards.

https://i.imgur.com/r3olm1V.jpg
PS I stay out of Malls.

If I was a betting man, and felt that it was a good bet that I'd never have to aim to shoot I'd feel good (ie safe), in betting the farm on point shooting my way out of trouble. But because I don't feel confident in that I continue to think about and train for scenarios that might go down out further than 21 feet. Like Mas Ayoob is prone to say, "it's the totality of the situation" that matters. I can't control all situations therefore I'm not gonna bet on any one in particular.

[FreeMe]

Hardly apples to oranges? Lol, Had the same red dot just like any other. Just different size mount, Large and Bulky. Technology the same. Yea they may be smaller, better battery life etc. but please do not tell me the red dot was not the same. I should know, we were shooting some serious precision. Basically the same damn red dot like on my Present Halosun's, etc. By the way, I still have some older models as well. As I said, I am all for Red Dots on AR's and shotguns. But not a Small Barrel EDC or anything under 20 yds. Ridiculous. All of us tried them and all of us removed them. Just not accurate and now just not fast. There is no sense in arguing this. If you need a Red Dot, you need one, I do not. And no matter how much you keep insisting that I do is not going to change my mind. I am not going to get myself killed using a product that does not work any where as good as honed point and shoot skills. For gosh sake, it would take me the same about of years of training and ammo to get to the same level even if I did want one the damn things. And I do not have that many years left lol.
If I were in combat possibly would think about using one if the military equipped me with one, or hunting and 30-100 yds out. I get it. But not for a EDC pistol.

OMG, I'm not trying to tell you what to do. You do what works for you. But I'd sure like to tell Justin.Moon to start making slides ready for optics.

And apples to oranges? Yes, they're both fruits. To say a dot is a dot on the same level.

[FreeMe]

If I was a betting man, and felt that it was a good bet that I'd never have to aim to shoot I'd feel good (ie safe), in betting the farm on point shooting my way out of trouble. But because I don't feel confident in that I continue to think about and train for scenarios that might go down out further than 21 feet. Like Mas Ayoob is prone to say, "it's the totality of the situation" that matters. I can't control all situations therefore I'm not gonna bet on any one in particular.

Yeah, we hear it all the time. You don't get to choose what kind of fight comes to you.

[King Rat]

Don't hang out in Malls, or go into the hood on Saturday nights looking for a good time. You will be Ok, with practical distances.

[187911]

Kahr sales are better than they've ever been. The brand is a hot seller. Yes, the handful of members on this forum who don't care about modernization, innovation, and capacity represents the majority of gun owners in the country, Kahr pistols are as beloved as Smith, Ruger, and Colt revolvers, and I don't even know what we're talking about right now. Kahr is still extremely successful and are selling a whopping 10k firearms a year. I'm sure the other hundreds of members and Kahr fans on this forum agree with me and will chime in anytime.

Kahrs area going anywhere anytime soon. Just like 1911s, a hundred years from now as technology has moved on, Kahrs of 1999 will still be hot sellers. Who wants a PM9 sized gun with 10 rounds when you can have one the same size with 6 or 7 rounds?

[zamboni]

Kahr sales are better than they've ever been. The brand is a hot seller. Yes, the handful of members on this forum who don't care about modernization, innovation, and capacity represents the majority of gun owners in the country, Kahr pistols are as beloved as Smith, Ruger, and Colt revolvers, and I don't even know what we're talking about right now. Kahr is still extremely successful and are selling a whopping 10k firearms a year. I'm sure the other hundreds of members and Kahr fans on this forum agree with me and will chime in anytime.

Kahrs area going anywhere anytime soon. Just like 1911s, a hundred years from now as technology has moved on, Kahrs of 1999 will still be hot sellers. Who wants a PM9 sized gun with 10 rounds when you can have one the same size with 6 or 7 rounds?

lol, I went from thinking this post was serious, to sarcasm, back to serious, back to sarcasm. I hope it is sarcasm, because it made me laugh and I agree with your thinking. If it was serious…well, at least king rat will agree with you.

[King Rat]

Deleted-Will only say that it is a free world, if you do not like Kahr then go buy something else. Plenty of Glocks for sale. No need to continue crying about why Kahr does not have a double stack.
Feel free to move on to another forum.

[Bawanna]

We're getting close to the getting personal line here folks. Been a long time, hope I remember how to even do it. But this one is close to getting closed down.
Horse is plumb rode down.

Fair warning.

[King Rat]

We're getting close to the getting personal line here folks. Been a long time, hope I remember how to even do it. But this one is close to getting closed down.
Horse is plumb rode down.

Fair warning.

No problem, I will delete.

[FreeMe]

Don't hang out in Malls, or go into the hood on Saturday nights looking for a good time. You will be Ok, with practical distances.


I haven't been in a mall in a decade. Don't go to bars, parties, or sporting events either. Biggest gathering I attend is church services. And we know how that's been going lately.

[King Rat]

I haven't been in a mall in a decade. Don't go to bars, parties, or sporting events either. Biggest gathering I attend is church services. And we know how that's been going lately.

My Church is the woods and swamps. No people, no problems. Just Black bears and Cottonmouths and they mind their own damn business.

[Bawanna]

No problem, I will delete.

You were not the only participant in the verbal fisticuff. Wasn't aiming (pun fully intended) to point individual fingers at nobody. Carry on.

[FreeMe]

You were not the only participant in the verbal fisticuff. Wasn't aiming (pun fully intended) to point individual fingers at nobody. Carry on.

I thought it was more of a slap fight. ;)

Hey, ya suppose Kahr will bring out a double stack? :D

[Armybrat]

Well, I’m a big proponent for a double stack Kahr, but that didn’t stop me from buying this S9 single stack last week.
$267.99 plus TT&L was too good to pass up.
Even ordered 3 extra 7 round mags for $83.37.

Kahr fit & finish has not slacked off.

[FreeMe]

That price is pretty hard to pass up.

[Vinikahr]

Well, I’m a big proponent for a double stack Kahr, but that didn’t stop me from buying this S9 single stack last week.
$267.99 plus TT&L was too good to pass up.
Even ordered 3 extra 7 round mags for $83.37.

Kahr fit & finish has not slacked off.

I saw this special as well, got ST9 and 3 S9. Had to order the metal magazine base plates to increase better reliability of the magazines. Like you indicated a good deal to pass. Still will cheat on Kahr with other that have the double magazine as the same size. But a gun that you can stage in your home that is a steal.

[Vinikahr]

I thought it was more of a slap fight. ;)

Hey, ya suppose Kahr will bring out a double stack? :D

Hoping they do, but my expectations are low, that way I do not get disappointed.

[Vinikahr]

Kahr sales are better than they've ever been. a whopping 10k firearms a year. I'm sure the other hundreds of members and Kahr fans on this forum agree with me and will chime in anytime.

Well I am Kahr fanboy, I own PM9, 2 CM9, P9-2, 3 S9, and ST9. I guess, my contribution to those numbers. But those numbers kind of low. But Khar has other firearms in their catalog, that can make them profitable. But since they are a close company will be hard to evaluate their profitability.

[FreeMe]

Well I am Kahr fanboy, I own PM9, 2 CM9, P9-2, 3 S9, and ST9. I guess, my contribution to those numbers. But those numbers kind of low. But Khar has other firearms in their catalog, that can make them profitable. But since they are a close company will be hard to evaluate their profitability.


Hey, you're not really a fanboy if you don't have at least one K9. Get after it! ;)

[Vinikahr]

Hey, you're not really a fanboy if you don't have at least one K9. Get after it! ;)

Will see, if I can get good deal may jump into it. I have two metal guns, the Arex Rex Zero 1 full and compact. Bought them because got a deal

.20078

[JohnR]

I guess I’m a fanboy. I’ve had two K9s, but sold both. I can shoot my T9 better than my CZ75, and it’s more pleasant to shoot. Might have to swap out the springs in the CZ. The trigger is awful heavy.

[yqtszhj]

…... Might have to swap out the springs in the CZ. The trigger is awful heavy.

Cajun Gun Works blue hammer spring. Can’t remember how many pounds it is but it’s like night and day difference. Blue may be 10 or 12 pounds. With the blue one you don’t have to mess with the firing pin spring if I remember correctly, but that’s not a problem to change out either and it’s cheap.

[JohnR]

Cajun Gun Works blue hammer spring. Can’t remember how many pounds it is but it’s like night and day difference. Blue may be 10 or 12 pounds. With the blue one you don’t have to mess with the firing pin spring if I remember correctly, but that’s not a problem to change out either and it’s cheap.
How hard is that for a DIYer? Will it take me three hours and some bloody fingertips, with tools I'll have to special order?

[DJK11]

First time working on the 75? No special tools but yes three hours. That’s because if you do it correctly, you will polish the s… out of the internals. Then it will feel like an entirely different much better pistol. I’ve done my three CZs and the difference is astonishing. The thing with standard production CZs is the triggers are not that good out of the box. So when one purchases a CZ expect to spend a couple hundred more to refine it. Then it’s a dream to handle.

[DJK11]

Forgot, the blue hammer spring is 13#. I use the blue but cut off two coils.

[JohnR]

So just one $7 spring is allI need? I think I can manage that. I don’t mind polishing stuff as long as it’s clear exactly what and where to polish. I’ll search for tutorials. Ah: https://cdn1.cajungunworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/28155339/How-To-Omega-Polishing.pdf

[gb6491]

First time working on the 75? No special tools but yes three hours. That’s because if you do it correctly, you will polish the s… out of the internals. Then it will feel like an entirely different much better pistol. I’ve done my three CZs and the difference is astonishing. The thing with standard production CZs is the triggers are not that good out of the box. So when one purchases a CZ expect to spend a couple hundred more to refine it. Then it’s a dream to handle.
That's been my experience...I usually go with Cajun Gun Works' hammer and their adjustable sear. That combo gives a crisp break and eliminates the hammer camming back in my CZ pistols. I put their complete package in my Phantom; so it does a have a lighter hammer spring as well...but the others aren't far behind it pull weight wise.

So just one $7 spring is allI need? I think I can manage that. I don’t mind polishing stuff as long as it’s clear exactly what and where to polish. I’ll search for tutorials. Ah: https://cdn1.cajungunworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/28155339/How-To-Omega-Polishing.pdf

Is your 75B an Omega model? It's been years since I've seen one.

Regards,
Greg

[JohnR]

Yep, Omega.

[DJK11]

Omega! Too bad. Just polish it and pray.

[JohnR]

Omega! Too bad. Just polish it and pray.
Why is that? A spring won’t lighten it?

[DJK11]

Omega the CZ stepchild

[JohnR]

I see it was just discontinued, but can’t find why. https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-75-b-ω-convertible-omega/

All I want to do is lighten the trigger pull, not attend family reunions :)

[gb6491]

I see it was just discontinued, but can’t find why. https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-75-b-ω-convertible-omega/

All I want to do is lighten the trigger pull, not attend family reunions :)
Well shoot, I forgot about my P-09: which has the Omega trigger. The parts are bit different from the steel frame guns, but I believe the system works the same.
I did the polish on it and went with a lighter hammer spring. CGW says to use a lighter firing pin spring with the lighter hammer spring. I did that and also installed an extended firing pin (and spring steel firing pin retaining pin). As I had the slide apart, I used their reduced power plunger spring as well. There was enough improvement that I didn't feel enough need to use the CGW hammer. FWIW, I run my P-09 as a de-cocker.
Regards,
Greg

[DJK11]

I see it was just discontinued, but can’t find why. https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-75-b-ω-convertible-omega/

All I want to do is lighten the trigger pull, not attend family reunions :)

I’m a bit confused. You can work on and modify the mighty LCP but you are hesitant to do the same to a CZ? I assume the Omega was discontinued because the factory couldn’t keep up production given the demand. Maybe the same with Kahr with the S series.

[yqtszhj]

So just one $7 spring is allI need? I think I can manage that. I don’t mind polishing stuff as long as it’s clear exactly what and where to polish. I’ll search for tutorials. Ah: https://cdn1.cajungunworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/28155339/How-To-Omega-Polishing.pdf

Yep, that’s about it to lighten it up. You can change out the springs easily. The Omega will smooth out too with a little polishing. Not as nicely as the original trigger but still OK. Greg gave a good recommendation on the springs to change. You can do those easily with only a set of punches.

[JohnR]

LCP? Someone else? I’ve done lots of spring changes in semis and revolvers, I just wondered how many of the CZ’s springs affected to trigger weight. I’m ordering a couple blue springs now.

[yqtszhj]

You’ll like the improvement. It will make a nice difference.