Retired Metalsmith
08-29-2023, 07:42 AM
Reposted (condensed) from: The Firearms Forum
I have not seen any details as to Kahr Arms startup years, and since I was Killeen Machine Tool’s (KMT’s) primary contact with Kahr at that time, I’d like to share some of the details that I can remember. I left KMT unexpectedly in 2011, so I’ve been away from any Kahr contact for awhile and I’m best remembering the below details based upon my present recall. Killeen Machine Tool Co. Inc. (when it was in Worcester MA, and under different from present President/owner, and business name) quickly evolved into being Kahr’s supplier of metal stampings/stamping assemblies.
In approx. 1994-95, KMT’s Toolroom Mgr. (Everett Larson) and I (KMT’s Quality & Inside Sales Mgr.) were told by a sales engineer from Action Automation (Attleboro, MA), who had visited Saeilo, that Saeilo was starting a firearms company called Kahr Arms. Just like KMT being in Worcester MA, Saeilo was located at Worcester’s 184 Prescott St..
I contacted Kahr’s/Saeilo’s combined Operations Mgr. (Sam Wada) for Everett and I to make a visit. Sam showed us the Saeilo CNC machines producing various customer parts, and then showed Everett and I how they were making the K9 mag. tube from Luger 9mm tubes. I think Kahr was shortening the tube base and then forming the baseplate flanges. Followers were machined from aluminum. KMT was making mag. tubes for S & W, mag. assemblies for Seecamp (I had gotten that account for KMT), plus mags. for Savage, so I made the offer to have KMT produce the mag. tubes.
The next meeting was with Kahr’s President (Justin Moon), Sam, KMT’s President (Norman Doucet) and me. The deal was made for KMT to produce the 9mm mag. tube with KMT owning at least some of the tooling. The stamping supplier owning tooling was a typical stamping industry practice at that time because a customer couldn’t easily move the tooling to another supplier, but more importantly any tool engineering “tweaks” could be removed from a tool if the tool was sold to a customer. The tube’s stainless material to be used would be 420L because this alloy was a heat treatable grade of stainless that KMT was required to use (per S & W’s chief metallurgist Jim Grochmal) on S & W’s mag. tubes. The alloy’s “L” suffix denoted a tightly controlled minimum/maximum carbon content that resulted in no usage cracking of the tube’s lips or seam weld when properly heat treated. Per Jim, conversely by using the less expensive non “L” 420 alloy for any pistol’s mag. tube could result in cracks in various areas.
It took approx. six months to produce tooling to produce: a flat blank, first form the top lips and two bottom flanges, form the rear weld seam sides, a welding internal arbor and clamping jaws for KMT’s custom TIG welding machine (made for S & W’s mag. tubes), post-heat treating re-strike tools (the tube sight holed sidewalls are typically bowed outwards from “U” forming spring back stresses), and a functional max. outside profile hardened gage plus a hardened inside min. profile gage. Tube lip internal widths were verified with plug gages. Before the flat blank design was finalized, all flat blanks were designed in-house on CAD and then EDM blanks were cut by KMT’s EDM vendor. Samples had to be lightly sanded on the two welding edges because the EDM caused a lacking weld strength.
KMT expedited the tooling and mag. tubes were produced to Kahr’s drawing and tested with Kahr’s then present followers, springs, etc.. There were a couple of followup submissions for minor improvements until the tube was approved for production.
Production commenced and next Kahr designed and locally sourced the 9mm plastic followers, bases, and base locks. Kahr wanted KMT to fully assemble the mags. and Kahr was concerned with the plastic follower wearing down where the last round’s slide lock feature was contacting it. So I designed the press fitted metal pin for the follower, it was Kahr tested, and then incorporated in production.
Production was scaling up and I was making weekly deliveries at the end of the day with my own vehicle so as to maximize schedules and to be able to confirm with key Kahr personnel that there were no quality issues with KMT’s mag. assemblies, and in addition there were occasional meetings with both Sam and Justin. Kahr now wanted KMT to purchase the plastic mag. components from their source and for KMT to source mag. springs to Kahr’s specifications from KMT’s source (I think that it was Imperial Spring, CT) before changing to Wolff springs (in PA).
Later, Kahr was experiencing a few minor field complaints of the trigger bar breaking at one of the offsets. Kahr was machining the bar from a solid block of steel, and this bar had several offsets. In my opinion, the machined offsets were cutting through the grain of the metal block and that shock loading during firing caused just some bars to fracture at an offset. I designed a metal stamped bar and discussed it with both Norman and Everett before discussing the design with Kahr (Sam).
In a meeting with Norman and Everett, I started to explain my idea of a metal stamped trigger bar to both; they both immediately said that it couldn’t be done. These were two very experienced stamping people with a combined 75 years of experience telling me that it wasn’t possible to produce this bar as a stamping. My design was for a flat blank with subsequently formed offsets (so the metal’s grain flowed with the offsets) and a screw machined stepped button that was press fitted to a hole in the bar with a brazing ring between the button’s step and the bar, then the bar assembly was brazed at a higher temperature, and lastly heat treated at a lower temperature (I think it was tempered too). Everett did not like my idea. He had an alternate idea of trying to stamping press extrude the button, and then stamping cut the bar’s profile around the button. Norman wanted to see samples of both means and approve of one means before I would discuss the idea with Sam. Unfortunately, Everett made a number of attempts but could not get a consistent and round extrusion, and he conceded to my design. Norman had Everett make some EDM profile blanks, prototypes were made and assembled, and then brazed and heat treated by Industrial Heat Treating (Quincy MA) that heat treated a number of KMT’s mag. parts.
These samples were submitted, and Sam (Kahr) was very pleased with the testing results. KMT produced these bars for a very short period of time and then Kahr wanted a machined chisel point edge on the bar’s horizontal tail where the tail contacted the internal cam (for better trigger pull smoothness). I convinced Norman to keep that machining operation in-house by buying a new large rotary table CNC so as to optimize the CNC’s output, and he agreed. KMT’s toolroom produced the fixtures to tool it up. This was the trigger bar design that had been used on all Kahr pistols until I left KMT.
Kahr continued to grow with more models and KMT’s business grew significantly with Kahr’s business. During a weekly delivery, the Assembly Dept. Mgr. asked me if I wanted to comparison test fire both a K9 and K40, and I agreed. Kahr was still in a small building with the range being right in the assembly area, and with the firing range being just a thick steel pipe, maybe two feet in diameter and maybe eight feet long, with a bullet trap on the end. It was a simple and functional assembly and test area, and I don’t think that offer to test fire would happen again today.
My further personal design contributions to Kahr were for the stamped metal follower pin in the 40 cal. mag’s. plastic follower, the barbed metal screw machined round end cap on the original MK9 plastic guide rod of Kahr design. Also, on the MK versions of the double recoil assembly’s stainless tube separating the springs, I had designed the orbital riveting machine process for forming the tube’s ninety degree inner and outer flanges; I think that the tube was originally planned or released as a screw machined/CNC turned part where the flanges were susceptible to breakage due to the flange’s metal grain direction. Again, KMT bought the machinery, produced the tooling in the toolroom, produced the tube’s flanges in-house from cut tube blanks, and then sold this full recoil assembly to Kahr.
When Kahr developed their first polymer frame pistol, Sam came to me with a Kahr designed metal stamped “C” shaped insert that was to be molded into the front of the frame with the stamping’s opening facing up to engage the slide. Again, Everett designed the stamping’s tooling and I designed the functional gaging. This was a difficult stamping due to the closely toleranced width opening competing with the metal’s spring back and then the tight fillet radii on both narrow flanges for a necessary flat surface over both flanges. This insert was accompanied with a small and sequentially numbered metal serial number tag that KMT tooled up and produced too.
My tenure at KMT, and the frequent contact with Sam, continued through Norman’s passing away in 2006, and two subsequent changes in KMT company presidents, until I was unexpectedly gone from the company on Christmas Eve in 2011. I had an excellent business relationship (approx. 17 yrs.) with Sam, and after I left KMT I’m unaware as to what business transpired between KMT and Kahr.
I have not seen any details as to Kahr Arms startup years, and since I was Killeen Machine Tool’s (KMT’s) primary contact with Kahr at that time, I’d like to share some of the details that I can remember. I left KMT unexpectedly in 2011, so I’ve been away from any Kahr contact for awhile and I’m best remembering the below details based upon my present recall. Killeen Machine Tool Co. Inc. (when it was in Worcester MA, and under different from present President/owner, and business name) quickly evolved into being Kahr’s supplier of metal stampings/stamping assemblies.
In approx. 1994-95, KMT’s Toolroom Mgr. (Everett Larson) and I (KMT’s Quality & Inside Sales Mgr.) were told by a sales engineer from Action Automation (Attleboro, MA), who had visited Saeilo, that Saeilo was starting a firearms company called Kahr Arms. Just like KMT being in Worcester MA, Saeilo was located at Worcester’s 184 Prescott St..
I contacted Kahr’s/Saeilo’s combined Operations Mgr. (Sam Wada) for Everett and I to make a visit. Sam showed us the Saeilo CNC machines producing various customer parts, and then showed Everett and I how they were making the K9 mag. tube from Luger 9mm tubes. I think Kahr was shortening the tube base and then forming the baseplate flanges. Followers were machined from aluminum. KMT was making mag. tubes for S & W, mag. assemblies for Seecamp (I had gotten that account for KMT), plus mags. for Savage, so I made the offer to have KMT produce the mag. tubes.
The next meeting was with Kahr’s President (Justin Moon), Sam, KMT’s President (Norman Doucet) and me. The deal was made for KMT to produce the 9mm mag. tube with KMT owning at least some of the tooling. The stamping supplier owning tooling was a typical stamping industry practice at that time because a customer couldn’t easily move the tooling to another supplier, but more importantly any tool engineering “tweaks” could be removed from a tool if the tool was sold to a customer. The tube’s stainless material to be used would be 420L because this alloy was a heat treatable grade of stainless that KMT was required to use (per S & W’s chief metallurgist Jim Grochmal) on S & W’s mag. tubes. The alloy’s “L” suffix denoted a tightly controlled minimum/maximum carbon content that resulted in no usage cracking of the tube’s lips or seam weld when properly heat treated. Per Jim, conversely by using the less expensive non “L” 420 alloy for any pistol’s mag. tube could result in cracks in various areas.
It took approx. six months to produce tooling to produce: a flat blank, first form the top lips and two bottom flanges, form the rear weld seam sides, a welding internal arbor and clamping jaws for KMT’s custom TIG welding machine (made for S & W’s mag. tubes), post-heat treating re-strike tools (the tube sight holed sidewalls are typically bowed outwards from “U” forming spring back stresses), and a functional max. outside profile hardened gage plus a hardened inside min. profile gage. Tube lip internal widths were verified with plug gages. Before the flat blank design was finalized, all flat blanks were designed in-house on CAD and then EDM blanks were cut by KMT’s EDM vendor. Samples had to be lightly sanded on the two welding edges because the EDM caused a lacking weld strength.
KMT expedited the tooling and mag. tubes were produced to Kahr’s drawing and tested with Kahr’s then present followers, springs, etc.. There were a couple of followup submissions for minor improvements until the tube was approved for production.
Production commenced and next Kahr designed and locally sourced the 9mm plastic followers, bases, and base locks. Kahr wanted KMT to fully assemble the mags. and Kahr was concerned with the plastic follower wearing down where the last round’s slide lock feature was contacting it. So I designed the press fitted metal pin for the follower, it was Kahr tested, and then incorporated in production.
Production was scaling up and I was making weekly deliveries at the end of the day with my own vehicle so as to maximize schedules and to be able to confirm with key Kahr personnel that there were no quality issues with KMT’s mag. assemblies, and in addition there were occasional meetings with both Sam and Justin. Kahr now wanted KMT to purchase the plastic mag. components from their source and for KMT to source mag. springs to Kahr’s specifications from KMT’s source (I think that it was Imperial Spring, CT) before changing to Wolff springs (in PA).
Later, Kahr was experiencing a few minor field complaints of the trigger bar breaking at one of the offsets. Kahr was machining the bar from a solid block of steel, and this bar had several offsets. In my opinion, the machined offsets were cutting through the grain of the metal block and that shock loading during firing caused just some bars to fracture at an offset. I designed a metal stamped bar and discussed it with both Norman and Everett before discussing the design with Kahr (Sam).
In a meeting with Norman and Everett, I started to explain my idea of a metal stamped trigger bar to both; they both immediately said that it couldn’t be done. These were two very experienced stamping people with a combined 75 years of experience telling me that it wasn’t possible to produce this bar as a stamping. My design was for a flat blank with subsequently formed offsets (so the metal’s grain flowed with the offsets) and a screw machined stepped button that was press fitted to a hole in the bar with a brazing ring between the button’s step and the bar, then the bar assembly was brazed at a higher temperature, and lastly heat treated at a lower temperature (I think it was tempered too). Everett did not like my idea. He had an alternate idea of trying to stamping press extrude the button, and then stamping cut the bar’s profile around the button. Norman wanted to see samples of both means and approve of one means before I would discuss the idea with Sam. Unfortunately, Everett made a number of attempts but could not get a consistent and round extrusion, and he conceded to my design. Norman had Everett make some EDM profile blanks, prototypes were made and assembled, and then brazed and heat treated by Industrial Heat Treating (Quincy MA) that heat treated a number of KMT’s mag. parts.
These samples were submitted, and Sam (Kahr) was very pleased with the testing results. KMT produced these bars for a very short period of time and then Kahr wanted a machined chisel point edge on the bar’s horizontal tail where the tail contacted the internal cam (for better trigger pull smoothness). I convinced Norman to keep that machining operation in-house by buying a new large rotary table CNC so as to optimize the CNC’s output, and he agreed. KMT’s toolroom produced the fixtures to tool it up. This was the trigger bar design that had been used on all Kahr pistols until I left KMT.
Kahr continued to grow with more models and KMT’s business grew significantly with Kahr’s business. During a weekly delivery, the Assembly Dept. Mgr. asked me if I wanted to comparison test fire both a K9 and K40, and I agreed. Kahr was still in a small building with the range being right in the assembly area, and with the firing range being just a thick steel pipe, maybe two feet in diameter and maybe eight feet long, with a bullet trap on the end. It was a simple and functional assembly and test area, and I don’t think that offer to test fire would happen again today.
My further personal design contributions to Kahr were for the stamped metal follower pin in the 40 cal. mag’s. plastic follower, the barbed metal screw machined round end cap on the original MK9 plastic guide rod of Kahr design. Also, on the MK versions of the double recoil assembly’s stainless tube separating the springs, I had designed the orbital riveting machine process for forming the tube’s ninety degree inner and outer flanges; I think that the tube was originally planned or released as a screw machined/CNC turned part where the flanges were susceptible to breakage due to the flange’s metal grain direction. Again, KMT bought the machinery, produced the tooling in the toolroom, produced the tube’s flanges in-house from cut tube blanks, and then sold this full recoil assembly to Kahr.
When Kahr developed their first polymer frame pistol, Sam came to me with a Kahr designed metal stamped “C” shaped insert that was to be molded into the front of the frame with the stamping’s opening facing up to engage the slide. Again, Everett designed the stamping’s tooling and I designed the functional gaging. This was a difficult stamping due to the closely toleranced width opening competing with the metal’s spring back and then the tight fillet radii on both narrow flanges for a necessary flat surface over both flanges. This insert was accompanied with a small and sequentially numbered metal serial number tag that KMT tooled up and produced too.
My tenure at KMT, and the frequent contact with Sam, continued through Norman’s passing away in 2006, and two subsequent changes in KMT company presidents, until I was unexpectedly gone from the company on Christmas Eve in 2011. I had an excellent business relationship (approx. 17 yrs.) with Sam, and after I left KMT I’m unaware as to what business transpired between KMT and Kahr.