Is Kahr truly double action?

[DavidR]

I stumbled across this interesting discussion of the Kahr firing mechanism:

https://youtu.be/p0MzHu6C3gg?si=sy2-dr3loCiUVhs_

[JohnR]

He explains it pretty well.

I've gotten to where the Kahr trigger is the only semiauto that I like.

[tokuno]

To my mind, it's not a double action unless it strikes without having to manually cycle the slide.
But whatever anyone calls it, the Kahr action is my preference for semi-auto, point-at-tender-things, iwb carry.

[Armybrat]

Yep….

[ripley16]

Kahrs are obviously single action. Kahrs must be precocked to function and fire. The trigger does one thing only... release a striker. The trigger has no re-strike function, will not cock anything, nor de-cock. Typical double actions will render a pistol able to fire with a pull of the trigger from a un-cocked state. Almost all striker fired guns are single action. Very few are not.

[FreeMe]

Kahrs are obviously single action. Kahrs must be precocked to function and fire. The trigger does one thing only... release a striker. The trigger has no re-strike function, will not cock anything, nor de-cock. Typical double actions will render a pistol able to fire with a pull of the trigger from a un-cocked state. Almost all striker fired guns are single action. Very few are not.

Well, not exactly. The longstanding definition of double action has always been that the trigger performs two functions. Cocking the hammer or striker and releasing it. It's arguable that the Kahr trigger is double action because it does perform two functions. The striker is only partially cocked by the slide, so the trigger completes that job then releases it. To be perfectly technical, the Kahr trigger is an action and a half. But that's too much of a mouthful for informal discussion, and the reality is that it is not single action like that of a XD or Shield EZ. Given the long consistent stroke required to fire it, it's most practically described as a light DAO.

I didn't watch the video. Don't need to.

[ripley16]

it's most practically described as a light DAO.

We must agree to disagree. The test of what a trigger is capable of is what does it do all on it's own. A DAO will operate regardless of whether the gun shoots or not. A Kahr must be manipulated either by hand or a round firing. to recock. I know Kahr calls their gun a DA but one has to stretch the definition to arrive at that conclusion. A double action gun has restrike capability. Kahr's do not.

[FreeMe]

We must agree to disagree. The test of what a trigger is capable of is what does it do all on it's own. A DAO will operate regardless of whether the gun shoots or not. A Kahr must be manipulated either by hand or a round firing. to recock. I know Kahr calls their gun a DA but one has to stretch the definition to arrive at that conclusion. A double action gun has restrike capability. Kahr's do not.

Experts disagree. Re-strike capability has never been a defining characteristic of DAO...

USCCA:


This design requires a trigger pull to both cock and trip the hammer/striker for every single shot, unlike a DA/SA, which only requires a double-action trigger pull for the first shot (or a typical DA/SA revolver, which can fire single-action, but uses double-action as a default). There is no single-action function for any shot. The hammer or striker always rests in the down position until the trigger pull begins. With semi-automatics (unlike DA/SA weapons) the hammer does not remain cocked after the first round is fired. Every shot is in double-action mode. When it comes to a revolver, the shooter does not have the option of cocking the gun before shooting and must always discharge it in double-action mode.

Wiley Clapp:


I recently had the pleasure of writing up the new SIG Sauer P320 for American Rifleman. Somehow or another, I left a number of readers a little confused about the pistol's trigger action, and we can't have that. So let's take a quick second look at the gun and see if we can get things straightened out. 320s are striker-fired pistols, a first for SIG Sauer. The striker is spring loaded and becomes fully cocked when the slide comes all the way to the rear, either manually or when the act of firing drives it back. To fire, the shooter presses the trigger, an act that clears safeties and releases the striker. This initial trigger pull does feel a great deal like several other guns (Glock, S&W M&P) that partially pre-cock the striker and are called DAOs (for double-action-only).

Richard Mann:


The trigger of a DAO pistol it cocks and releases the hammer—every time—and since there’s no “cocked” notch on the hammer you cannot manually cock it. After you fire a DAO pistol, the slide recoils and pushes the hammer back, but as the slide goes forward, the hammer follows it to a “safe” un-cocked position. Like some DA pistols, most DAO pistols have re-strike capability. If the cartridge in the chamber does not fire you can pull the trigger for another attempt. It’s debatable if this is an advantage or a drawback. In most cases if a cartridge fails to fire, it will not fire in subsequent attempts and that can waste time. A better approach is to get the dud out of the gun as quickly as possible.


Ayoob, on DAO''s:


When in the late ’80s through early ’90s the two largest municipal police departments in the U.S. finally authorized semi-autos for their rank and file, both went DAO. Then and now, NYPD’s 36,000 officers have been limited to the S&W 5946, the SIG P226 DAO, and the GLOCK with super-heavy (12-lb.) NY-2 trigger. Chicago PD’s 13,000 sworn pistol packers were initially limited to DAO hammer-fired guns by Beretta, Ruger, SIG and S&W, with GLOCKs and other striker guns not authorized until considerably later.

Beretta, SIG and S&W were the main purveyors of police duty pistols, and they all saw the rapid ascent of their new arch-competitor GLOCK — in part due to ATF classifying the GLOCK as DAO. S&W designed the one with the best trigger — light, smooth and relatively short, but lacking second strike capability because the slide had to cycle to re-set the trigger.

Note: the Kahr trigger functions similarly to the Glock. What do you suppose the ATF classifies it as? (Not that they are always right) And if it isn't DAO, then what is it,? It isn't SA like the Sig 320 and the XD.

[ripley16]

Of the three types of trigger; single action, single/ double action and double action only, the one that best describes a Kahr system is single action simply because the action must be cocked prior to each shot. Otherwise it will not function. In comparing to any of my other guns and their various actions, SA best describes what a Kahr action accomplishes. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[yqtszhj]

In comparing to any of my other guns and their various actions, SA best describes what a Kahr action accomplishes. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Yep, long smooth SAO I’d say. They kinda made their on type of action.

[King Rat]

I do not try and get technical. Most experienced shooters know what people are talking about when they Say DAO. Kahr advertises their Pistols as DAO. I just look at it as two different systems.

dao
"Striker fired" is speaking to the firing mechanism.

"DAO" is speaking to the trigger mechanism, or "lockwork." They are completely different aspects of firearm design and can coexist in the same platform."

[FreeMe]

Yep, long smooth SAO I’d say. They kinda made their on type of action.

What, then, cocks the lockwork to the point of having the stored energy to fire the pistol? It isn't the slide. Have you ever looked inside your Kahr to see how it works. Ever looked inside a 1911, a HiPower, or any other SA handgun? If so, did you not notice a significant difference? (Hint: the hammer or striker on SA doesn't move either direction from movement of the trigger - until the sear is released)

[yqtszhj]

What, then, cocks the lockwork to the point of having the stored energy to fire the pistol? It isn't the slide. Have you ever looked inside your Kahr to see how it works. Ever looked inside a 1911, a HiPower, or any other SA handgun? If so, did you not notice a significant difference? (Hint: the hammer or striker on SA doesn't move either direction from movement of the trigger - until the sear is released)

Yes I have. As a percentage the striker on a Kahr is more cocked after loading a round than even a Glock as the Glock trigger bar pulls the striker back a greater percentage than a Kahr, so I guess the Glock is DAO also (don’t even say safe action). And as for what every manufacturer calls their action, the Ruger security 9 calls itself a single action in their manual and a pull of the trigger moves the hammer about 5 to 10% rearward. Also, if you have a CZ75 you’ll notice that when using the factory hammer with no after market part modifications the hammer in single action does slightly move the hammer rearward as the trigger is pulled and the sear moves up the notch in the hammer before it is released. So is that not single action? So with these striker fired guns, other than the Walther P99, who really makes what could be called a true sure enough DA trigger where the striker is under no tension until the trigger starts to be pulled? It isn’t Kahr, but it really doesn’t matter because it’s neither here nor there. The Kahr trigger feels like a long DA trigger and if that’s what they want to call it that’s there prerogative.

[FreeMe]

Interesting point about the CZ 75. Been a long time since I handled one, but I don't recall noticing that. Something I need to change.

I am curious about what the Lucky Gunner dude would say about the Keltec PF9. It has the hammer he claims is requisite of DAO, but no re-strike ability.



So many different mechanisms.... it's hard to define them all in just a few operating groups.

[yqtszhj]

So many different mechanisms.... it's hard to define them all in just a few operating groups.

That’s sure enough true right there.