Magazine Capacity Increase for .45's

[wyntrout]

Well, I finally got enough followers and springs, etc. together to try increasing the capacity of a flush fitting 5-round Kahr magazine... and others.

I got my order in from Midway:

ItemID Qty Price Description
-------- ---- ------- -----------------------------------
818121 1 $23.99 Colt Magazine 1911 Officer 45 AC...
171154 1 $7.99 Wilson Combat Magazine Follower ...
435620 1 $4.99 Pachmayr Contoured Magazine Follower...

The Colt Officer's Model 6-round Magazine (COM) holds 6 rounds and is the same length, tube-wise, as the 6-round extended grip Kahr magazine. I can only squeeze 6 and about a half rounds into it.

I took the COM follower and spring and installed it in the Kahr 5 round magazine (K5) and used the Kahr plastic base and lock. It will hold SIX rounds. I could probably cut a coil off the spring and give it a tiny bit more room.

I tried the Wilson follower and spring in the Kahr5 tube... follower too short in the front... dosen't work in the Kahr tubes.
I fiddled with the Pachmayr follower, squeezing the slide lock actuator up and filing it, but could not get that to work, kind of destroying the follower in the process... $5 for the experiment.

The Brolin Arms 7-round magazine (BA7) I have seems to have the Pachmayr follower and matching spring. I filed and adjusted it a bit, so maybe it will keep the slide back on empty more reliably now, as it did when I first started using it, but I think it was being rammed into the feed ramp or something. I tried this follower and spring in the K5 and the COM, but it wouldn't stay oriented correctly as in the BA7.

The Wilson Combat Conversion Kit, however, does work in the COM, INCREASING capacity to 7, but it doesn't reliably lock the slide back on empty. I'm working on that, adding some QuickSteel steel-reinforced epoxy putty to its slide lock bearing surface to increase the height and surface a bit. I'll have to file and sand that and see how that works. I wrapped some of that Emergency Silicone Tape around the bare part of the tube between the base of the PM45 and the base of the COM, which helps the looks a bit and gives me SEVEN + 1 capacity with a slightly more compact fit than the K6G or K7G

Pictures: The first compares the COM to the Kahr 6-round extended grip (K6G). The tubes are the same length. The base of the COM is welded and you have to compress the spring and insert a nail to hold it down so you can work the follower out.
#2 shows the follower and how the spring fits.
#3 the spring and the inside of the follower.
#4 the follower and spring installed in the K5
#5 the the modified K5 inserted into the PM45 with the slide removed and the slide lock installed.

I loaded 6 rounds and cycled them through the gun, holding it horizontally with the ejection port down to help the bullets eject.
I could chamber a round and top off the magazine for a capacity of 6+1, too.

I still need to test this at the range. I also want to try to make my steel S&W base plate fit this combo for a more flush fit... later, with my DLT.
I checked and there seemed to be no problems with fitting this combo inside and not impinging on the ejector, feed ramp, or slide lock actuator.

I can see getting some more of the COM follwers and springs to convert more magazines. :)

More pix follow of the other magazine combinations.

Wynn:)

[wyntrout]

Hmmm... didn't take any pictures of the COM inserted into the PM45, or of the tape wrapped around the tube... later.

More pictures:

#1: The Wilson kit to the right. Note the top of the spring.

#2: Wilson vs. Kahr follower on the left. Lower front of Wilson Follower too short.

#3: The Colt Officer's Model 6-rounder with 6 rounds capacity. Note empty last view-hole.

#4: The top of the Brolin Arms 7-round magazine below the Pachmayr follower.

#5: The COM with SEVEN rounds loaded after fitting it with the Wilson kit. I still need to finish the built-up bearing surface for the slide lock actuator.
Note the red snapcap visible in the bottom view-hole.

I need to get some more of the Colt followers and springs before I experiment with removing a coil... after range testing.

Wynn:)

[wyntrout]

Okay, the COM with the Wilson follower seems to work, but doesn't hold the slide open on empty. Trying to add the QuickSteel didn't help. The consistency of that can vary too much and it failed with the pressure from the slide-lock actuator.
PIX:

#1 Compares COM on bottom to K6G. Above is the S&W metal base that will partially slide on the Kahr tube. About 3 laps of the Silicone Tape were used. Tricky stuff to apply on smaller area and especially to TRIM.
#2 The COM with SEVEN rounds loaded, using the Wilson Kit.
#3 The COM inserted into the PM45. Trimming was tricky and I wasn't being REAL careful... no patience. If I hurry, I can screw it up and take more time on the next one... which I did. At least it didn't fly apart like the first one. The tape is stretched a bunch (according to instructions) and I used at least 3 layers.
#4 Ditto the other side.
#5 The QuickSteel isn't a good bearing surface... failed... maybe some JB Weld...???

I was trying some of the QuickSteel on the S&W follower, but I can see that's no good, either.

Anyhow, something to think about... good and bad.

Wynn:)

[Mr. Zero]

Wynn,

Thanks for the experiment and post. Since you have not range tested your combo let me issue a warning: The followers your using have no front skirt, just like the CMC shooting star followers. When I did the same experiment you have just preformed using the CMC mag and follower I had the same bench results - a 7 rounds flush fit mag for my P45 that cycled and activated the slide stop. However, when I went to the range, the slide would NOT lock back, and after 6 or 7 magazines of shooting I noticed the bottom / front portion of the follower had been slamming into the bottom of the feed ramp, deforming it.

I have decided that any modified mag needs to have a follower that cannot move forward under recoil (i.e. full skirted magazine follower).

[wyntrout]

I have shot the Brolin Arms a bunch. At first it kept the slide open, but got iffy. I just removed some of the leading edges that protrude too much and will try that again, but it's nothing I'm planning on using outside of the range.
I'm trying to find some follower/spring sets for the COM6 since those SEEM to work. The springs are the right front to back size to stabilize the follower it's made to complement.
I'll take a file with me when I do get to go to the range. Gotta go get stuff for supper. I'm cooking for two the next two nights.
Wynn:)

[wyntrout]

More information on this particular Wilson Combat Conversion Kit:

#1 The text description.
#2 The full length of the springs and comparison with 230-gr. Remington Golden Saber.
#3 Shows the top of the spring and the underside of the plastic follower. It's thin and partially skirted... too short a skirt for the Kahr tubes.
#4 Is a close-up of the follower. It's gunked up with QuickSteel where I tried to make a higher bearing surface to actuate the slide lock more reliably. I'll have to remove that junk.
#5 The bottom of the follower.

This is designed to work with the listed magazines and increase the capacity by one round. I had remarked on another post that the COM6 tube looked like it should hold 7 rounds and even has the witness holes for 7 rounds. With this follower and spring, it easily holds 7 rounds.

There's a different kit for the Wilson Combat Magazines.

This kit was $7.95 + shipping from Midway... cheap enough to play with. I like the COM6 with 7 rounds as I originally set it up for the Kahr PM45. It's base is more compact than the 6-round extended grip Kahr one... AND it holds 7 rounds... just doesn't work the slide lock... could be fine for single magazine carry or as the reload when only one is carried.

Just more info, but I still haven't tested these combos at the range. One reason I like the followers without a full skirt is that there's nothing there to catch on the magazine catch.

Wynn:)

[dusty10]

I suppose if one gets in the habit of counting rounds when shooting, the slide lock feature might not be all that important? Being an old revolver shooter, I already do that and don't even have to think about it. If your eyes are focused on the target, do you really see that the slide is locked back anyway? Or do you only notice the slide lock when there's no bang? Counting rounds seems a pretty good habit to adopt. I'll admit though that the more rounds the pistol carrys, the harder it is to count rounds. Some of those double stacks hold a bunch of bullets. :D I'm following this thread with great interest. Thanks for your efforts. Dusty

[Bawanna]

Dusty you are correct in that most don't notice the slide locked back, watching training videos, officers at our range and even people on public ranges, it's very common for them to be taking aim again with the slide back. I'm not sure that counting bullets is a really good thing as its just another thing to muddy up your brain cells when you need to be focusing on getting the job done to survive.
I also think that many folks get hung up on having lots and lot of bullets. I don't carry an auto for more capacity but more for carrying comfort, the flatness, the reload is faster but in a civilian capacity I just don't see high round counts in a defense situation. 1 more round in a PM45 would be a good thing and I hope all this experimentation reaps rewards but I'm not losing any sleep cause I only got 6.
Some of these hi cap guns get genuinely boring, you wonder if they are ever gonna run out of bullets. At range sessions I rarely load more than 10 at a time regardless.
The important thing is find what works best for you and stick with it.

[dusty10]

I don't even notice I'm counting. Old habit from revolver days is now automatic. That is just one of the many reasons these single stack Kahrs work great for me. Wish I had discovered them sooner. ;)

[wyntrout]

Well, I finally got to the range for the second time with my PM45 and its new frame... Franken Boomer. It was much easier to shoot... not so demanding of a "machine-rest" grip. I even fired a magazine one-handed... right and left. The left really sucked as I was using my dominant right eye, which gave me a peculiar recoil back and twisting to the right since my arm and shoulder weren't in line with the axis of recoil... not very accurate, either. I just did it to see if I could without malfunctions.

Before my replacement frame -- the poorly engraved one -- was replaced, I could hold the pistol rather loosely and let it rise with recoil... not so since the new slide. Now with the new frame, I can do that again. This is very important, if you think about it. In a crisis situation, you might only have the use of one hand and it would be nice if you could fire more than one shot without the pistol jamming. I think this is why so often you see criminals' guns jamming... one-handed gangsta shooting with a semi-auto.

Anyhow, the pistol was a lot more fun to shoot and I fired 185 rounds of 230-grain ammo:
50 rounds of Aluminum-cased Blazers
100 rounds of Remington UMC
29 rounds of Winchester 100-pack
and finally, 5+1 rounds of my defense ammo Remington Bonded Golden Sabers.
All I use are 230-grain, standard pressure ammo.

I was also doing magazine testing for increased capacity magazines with different combinations of followers, springs, and Kahr magazine parts, as well as several other brands.
Most combinations would feed okay, but none would hold the slide open on empty, so I couldn't recommend any of these for defensive carry with the PM45... at least, not in your weapon when you were carrying a reload. Several combinations do give an extra round of capacity, if you tested it in your weapon of choice and weren't concerned with the slide locking back on empty.

My favorite was the Kahr 5-round flush magazine with the follower and spring from the Colt Officers' Model 6-round magazine. This allowed loading 6 rounds into the Kahr magazine, though it would not lock the slide back on empty. I think half, or even a whole coil could be removed to lessen the tension in the magazine. I would advise thorough testing in your weapon before committing to this combination with no-reload CCW. In testing this particular combination, I shot 5 or 6 magazines full without any malfunctions. I shot 5 magazine fulls in a row at a fairly rapid pace. See the first pie plate. While there were a couple of nicks, I don't think any rounds totally missed. I know a few went through the central ragged hole without touching.
I'll post this much before I lose it... something I've done more than a few times.:eek:

My next favorite would be the COM6 with the appropriate Wilson Combat Conversion Kit installed, giving it SEVEN rounds capacity, but it won't lock the slide back on empty. The COM6 tube is the same length as the Kahr 6-round extended grip, but offers less protrusion from the grip, less to catch on clothing, and an extra round capacity. The follower is plastic with a pretty hollow inside and short abbreviated skirt which won't work in the Kahr tubes, or without the corresponding spring.

The size of the magazine coil... length front to back AND its mating to the follower, hold it in place. This is true of any of the magazines, but more important with shorter skirts and especially those minimal metal followers with no skirt in the front. Then you also need the proper fit with the magazine lips. All of these things work together to hold the follower in place and are designed to be assembled into the welded-base magazines.

I had at least two problems with the COM6 and the Wilson Kit, though. See picture #2 of the target and #3 of the FTRTB with the magazine removed.
Ha! I see the flange/nut was still in place on the guide rod at this point. Also of interest is that this was with the Winchester 100-Pack ammo, which has been more malfunction-prone than other ammo.

My filing the front parts of the Brolin Arms 7-round magazine didn't help with keeping the slide open on empty... another range only magazine.

The combo where I used the Kahr 6-round extended grip magazine with the S&W follower and spring isn't noteworthy. The QuickSteel worked a few times to hold the slide open on empty magazine, but that was short lived as I expected.

As for counting rounds to know when I emptied a magazine, several times I pulled the trigger on an empty chamber... the jerk is funny. And at least once or more, I stopped early and ejected a live round, so I think it's safer for all concerned if the slide locks back reliably on empty.

At the end of this visit, I used an un-modified K5 magazine and loaded 5+1 Bonded Golden Sabers and fired those, with one that felt "jerked", leaving 5 distinct holes, but one is ragged where at least two passed.

I was very pleased with the PM45's performance and decided it was ready for CCW... until later at home, where as I was wiping some of the powder residue off and I noticed the freaking flange/nut thingy was missing from the recoil assembly guide rod. :(

I emailed Eoin (That's E o i n, pronounced like Ian) and sent a few pictures... he said:

"Good morning.

I will send one with my next run of warranty parts.

Have a good day from Kahr.

Eoin Pryal.
Kahr Arms."

[Mr. Zero]

Thanks for doing such a complete range test and posting your results.

The whole magazine project has been fun and educational and I only have one or two more combo's to try before I give in to the reality that flush fit and an extra round are not doable at this time.

So far, I have had no problems running a Kahr spring and follower in a CMC mag to give me 6 rounds in a flush fit magazine (for a P45). It locks into place, feeds and locks back the slide back reliably.

Question: Did you notice any damage to the un-skirted followers where they impacted the barrel feed ramp?

[wyntrout]

I didn't notice any damage to any of the followers... other than the ratty looking Wilson Kit follower from my removing the QuickSteel by cutting, scraping, and sanding.

#1: My favorite combinations... the Kahr 5-rounder with the COM6 Follower AND its mated spring. And the COM6 with the Wilson Combat Kit installed, giving it a capacity of 7 rounds.

#'s 2 and 3: The Kahr 5-round PM45 Magazine with the COM6 follower and spring.

#4: The Colt Officers' Model 6-round magazine with the appropriate Wilson Combat Conversion kit installed. (the follower looking the worse for wear... see above).

#5: The Brolin Arms 7-rounder. I filed the leading edges of the follower a bit before the last test.

I looked at all of these combos installed in the pistol with the slide off and the slide lock lever/pin installed. The seemed to be no problems with the magazine lips being too tall, or the cartridges contacting the slide lock actuator or the ejector. The slide rides over and pushes down the cartridges and it's possible that there is some contact during the dynamic and violent ejection/chambering process of firing.

I really thought I had a winner with #1... the Kahr 5-rounder and it seemed to actuate slide lock manually, but never did so at the range during firing. :(

I hope this helps some of you who are seeking magazine capacity, etc., improvement.

Wynn :)